Yeah..I have to say that the list is solid. I tested the more creature version and the creatureless version vs a bant deck. No questions the full-control version is better vs them. I opted to not use enchantment removal and went all in with sorcery/instant. Here is my list
I feel like I want 4 Read the bones... but have yet to fidn the space..will perhaps do -1 Gideon + 1 Read the Bones. I would also like to add another wincon.. but sill figuring out what? a single Emeria perhaps? recycling PWs from landfall triggers is very nice.
The sideboard is still in flux. I want it to have 3 x thought-knot seer (that is why I run so many painlands MD..but still trying to figure out if the pain is worth it) and 3 x duress. And the usual suspects: 2 x Kalitas, 2 x Hallowed moonlight, 1 x virulent plague, 1 x dark petition, 1 x Linvala. Still figuring out other options.
I agree with Avacyn not being a problem. Ultimate price is still in the format which means you can kill her in response to her trigger. She does make Gideon a slightly larger liability, but generally you are generating so much value it doesn't matter. There are too many good removal spells right now and planeswalker which have huge impacts. This is the problem with wotc making 1 and 2 drop creatures worse lately while still making planeswalkers better.
At the same time, if control decks like this are too good, then esper control is going to dominate or mill decks.
My current plan is to just play 2 sets of creatures. Ayli for early game blockage and Thought-knot seer for disruption. The only other set of creatures I think are worth playing are knights of the white orchard because they are amazing on the draw. So a set of 4 in the SB is worth it along with Linvala as a 1 of SB.
Stasis snare has been completely good against the red eldrazi deck. Just because dromoka's command is in format, doesn't mean it is bad.
BW control has been insane against the creature heavy format. I have had an overall 80% winrate, only losing to control mirror and GR ramp game 1.
Languish and descend upon is absolute bonkers.
To all those who play archangel avacyn, card is absolute garbage. Take it out of your decks for another removal or more draw like damnable pact or painful for 2 raw cards. Any creature deck means free board wipe for you, and any control deck. Ultimate price and grasp just kills it and move on. Card is 50$ for no reason.
Secure the wastes and ultimate price overperformed. Both these cards are absolutely nuts, recommend 3 copies min in every build for secure. Bumped price up to 2 despite the eldrazi match up, because languish is a thing.
Ayli is auto 3 of in every build, card overperformed everytime. This card is amazing blocker and 3 toughness makes it hard for sylvans to go through.
Delerium is what im focused towards when gearing this deck. Descend and leaving a 4/4 behind is so key, as well as pick the brain for GR ramp. It is also for control and the bant company to pick off cocos. Plague is just necessary for the token builds coming out, infinite is to force interaction with GR ramp.
Kalitas has been garbage, it is in the same boat with avacyn. Grasp, declare, and spatial contortion made this card mediocre and it underperformed. It is still there for sake of zombies strats or nantuko husk decks. The fact that languish + kalitas is also a big no-no, you would say i will just pump my kalitas. But overall, that didn't happen and it underperformed this starting meta.
Felidar cub is for the quarantine field sideboard and other enchantments that i won't know about like some crappy starfield deck.
encircling fissure is for the aggro decks, this card has overperformed everytime and i love it. This card is the reason why in this meta, you get to live for another turn. Living to another turn vs. dying seems like a good deal, the additional plus is my tokens and ayli can trade with their buff guys.
extra anguished for the PW deck like naya or jund walkers, it also helps deal with eldrazi.
Pick the brain is used with delirium pref. But it is another hand control card.
The only cards i lost to were coco and chandra, it was more to coco than chandra since i can come back from chandra. I can't come back from 2-3 cocos EVER, unless i had a board wipe draws consecutively.
Anyone i saw who used avacyn along with being a creature deck was auto win. They played a board wipe for me and i just kill avacyn after. Linvala was considered, but i took the grip of desolation instead. Grip helped me hit the manlands + sylvans.
This deck has overperformed this meta, and currently persuading my non bant friends to play this deck for PPTQ and GP.
Making some good points here, but I feel like the hate towards avacyn is a little unjustified...there is a reason why half of the top 8 decks in the open ran multiple Avacyns...and also a reason why hard BW control didnt even make the top 20. Avacyn is a great card. The list you posted is similar to lists that were beaten by Avacyn decks at Baltimore open numerous times.
So lets be real...its obviously not a bad card. Maybe people in your meta just don't know how to use it?
That stuff aside. I like your list a lot, ill try it when i get the chance.
Avacyn is absolutely a very good card, it's just that it doesn't automatically slot into every deck with white. You would need to run a large number of creatures alongside it to make reliable use of the ETB ability (which is one of the major reasons to play it in the first place), so it doesn't really go in decks that run few creatures.
It doesn't work with decks that run too many creatures. The only time i have ever had issues with avacyn is with 2 sylvan advocates being 4/5.
Every single 3 toughness creature deck running avacyn, i just blow them out after getting rid of always watching + kill a dude. Avacyn is a average good, not insanely good. It was good in tournaments for the sake of running new cards, after control with languish MB sees play. These decks will go down in numbers + WB humans are switching to invasive surgery, which means running 1-2 duress MB. Which isn't a big deal, since that also helps the deck to fight against a "tempo" deck with counters in it.
The ETB ability is also why the card falters. You are a control deck, not a creature deck. You don't have actual creatures you care about nor do you care about the creatures they are playing. Unless i see a deck with <3 toughness with avacyn, it makes you a midrange deck. Which we should excel at beating, since we are a mid-late game deck.
Mid-game PWer decks is the reason why im still running 2 anguish, i might take out a stasis snare for a path to out chandra mid-game.
In retrospect..no one was playing ramp... so my idea of thought-knot seer was not be the best... although I did not get too much pain from the lands..Also..almost EVERYONE was playing some version of humans... to the point I am very tempted to go -3 trangress + 2 kalitas +1 linvala.. and perhaps go -3 thought-knot in the sb and get back to basic lands when possible.
Ok guys I need some advice. I'm playing in a standard tourney tomorrow. Winner gets a box. My friend has built a pretty good standard mill deck. This deck worries me since I play a control deck. My deck plays a slow game. Is there anything in standard at the moment that will help b/w control in that matchup besides Orbs of Warding? It's literally the only card I can think of that might help me win.
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When A Man Lies
He Murders Some Part Of His World
These Are The Pale Deaths
Which Men Miscall Their Lives
All This I Cannot Bear
To Witness Any Longer
Cannot The Kingdom Of Salvation
Take Me Home
Matches were vs. UW Humans, GW Humans, BR Vampires, Esper Control.
went 2-1 in the top 8 draft portion to get second place for a bunch of packs and goodies, but the standard portion went perfectly. I expected a lot of creature match-ups today and I was rewarded:D Avoided the blue Eldrazi matchup luckily cuz he lost round 1, as reality smashers can be an issue for us.
My list is very similar to yours..and I feel is almost impossible to loose vs Wx humans (IMO the most popular match right now). After the last tournament I changed (SB <-> MD): -3 transgress the mind +2 kalitas -1 linvala. Still not sure about the 4 languish MD. It is true that if one expects humans, then 4 languish would make game 1 virtually an autowin and, of course, it wouldn't hurt vs. Bant Company. Will give it a try next weeknd and a the GPT. Cheers.
My list is very similar to yours..and I feel is almost impossible to loose vs Wx humans (IMO the most popular match right now). After the last tournament I changed (SB <-> MD): -3 transgress the mind +2 kalitas -1 linvala. Still not sure about the 4 languish MD. It is true that if one expects humans, then 4 languish would make game 1 virtually an autowin and, of course, it wouldn't hurt vs. Bant Company. Will give it a try next weeknd and a the GPT. Cheers.
Awesome! Yea i might drop 1-2 Languish in favour of something else if I knew i was playing agaisn't more variety, but in my local meta I expected mass humans. The only problem really was Dragonlord ojutai once they have Always Watching, but even then....you can anguished unmaking it or bait out combat or blighted Fen etc, we just have so many answers.
Next weekend I am going to PPTQ and I expect a lot of bant company and UW humans. Do you have any advice for me how to play against bant company?
It depends on the list ur running really..languish, hallowed moonlight, transgress aiming for CoCo, Infinite Obliteration naming Bounding Krasis, taking out some gideon for Kalitas/Ayli couldn't hurt either.
Next weekend I am going to PPTQ and I expect a lot of bant company and UW humans. Do you have any advice for me how to play against bant company?
It depends on the list ur running really..languish, hallowed moonlight, transgress aiming for CoCo, Infinite Obliteration naming Bounding Krasis, taking out some gideon for Kalitas/Ayli couldn't hurt either.
Um, sorry, I have almost the same list as posted higher, full bw control.
It depends on the list ur running really..languish, hallowed moonlight, transgress aiming for CoCo, Infinite Obliteration naming Bounding Krasis, taking out some gideon for Kalitas/Ayli couldn't hurt either.
Wouldn't it be better to name Reflector Mage, seeing how that's the only way they have to deal with Ormendahl?
Well either or really both can mess with ormendahl, I would rather still get in for 9 lifelink and then get him bounced that to have him tapped and die. But depends on situation for sure imo!
So, I just got back from a local PPTQ, and didn't do as well as I had hoped. I went 3-2, beating some sort of U/B that featured Geralf's messenger, Naya Superfriends, and Mono-red aggro/burn. What I lost to was two variants of Bant CoCo. To my knowledge, there was only 1 human deck; and the top 8 featured 3 coco lists, 2 Gitrog decks, and the last 3 being B/W Midrange, said human deck, and U/W Spirit Tempo (I think lol).
That's what I ran; obviously the sideboard is a bit of a mess. Honestly, I think I need to clean it up and figure out exactly what matchups warrant sideboarding and, if so, what comes out against them. My personal thoughts are to perhaps run a bit more creatures like Ayli and Wasteland Strangler to fend off the onrush of creatures from CoCo, who was a lot more prevalent than I expected.
Pretty much, I went 6-0 against non-Coco lists, who I simply removed creatures and then threw down my PW and ended up winning; or in the case of U/B just ended up winning the top deck battle with Ormendahl.
Anyways, I'd love to hear your guy's thoughts on what strategies we have against Coco, since I thought I understood the matchup and clearly don't, since I didn't even win a game.
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Standard Decks:
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
Hi. Sad news man... CoCo is for sure a matchup that has to be played carefully. My ideal curve vs them is (I run 9 2CC removal spells and 4 3CC removal spells so I expect to at least get 1 in my starting 7. For reference, my list is a page or so back. )
T1 tapped land
T2 Removal for their Advocate/Jace (if languish in hand ) ELSE Discard
T3 Removal for their T3 creature or throw Secure the Wastes tokens in the way (never underestimate the power of chumpblockers to gain time).
T4 Gideon if no mana untapped for CoCo ELSE wait.
T5 .. same story but with other PWs.
Bottom line... . The strategy pre SB is to hold them at bay by killing their small dudes (specially the Advocate/Jace) and react to the CoCo with a Languish in the next turn. Ideally you would like them to be tapped enough in your turn 4, so you can play a Gideon without fearing a CoCo (2 creatures including reflector mage is byebye Gideon next attack). This is important because you want the Gideon to start generating blockers while you keep control the board with your spells and eventually other PWs. They will eventually run out of gas and your CA advantage engine in form of PWs takes over. Obviously it is not fool proof and variance/hands/etc. all influence the play. My advice is NEVER to fully tap to play a PW unless you are SURE that there will be enough blockers if they play the CoCo in your EOT to protect him. Game 2 is a bit of the same but being careful of counterspells and adding your own tricks like Hallowed moonlight/more discard. Gideon is not great as he is vulnerable when played on curve. Perhaps going -4 Gideon -1 Secure + 2 Kalitas + 1 Linvala + 2 Hallowed Moonlight is better post SB. It is a difficult matchup but I do not think it is unwinnable.
Hope this helps. Would be interested to hear how were your games vs CoCo in early turns to compare to my experience.
So this is my current list, went quite well FNM last week, although folded to Mardu control using darkdweller/k command trains unfortunately.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
My current thoughts are side the Duress and bring in the Transgress to the mb, potentially swap out the oaths for more removal?
SB is currently all over the shop while I figure out the local meta...have only played UR control, Mardu control and BR Vamps (I know there are 3 of these around locally).
1. How are the 25 lands running for you ? I am running 26 and I barely mulligan. Which is always positive IMO.
2. I am intrigued by your Avacyn from the sb. What are you sbing it against? Mirror match , aggro ? Is Linvala worth MD? I find it dies very easily in G1 when decks have all the removal in. Gets much better G2.
The land base has been super solid, I've only mulled once and it was only due to wanting early exile removal in place of destroy (vs Mardu). Got stuck on only painlands for black sources one game vs UR but it didn't have any bearing on the game at the end of it
Linvala is a tricky one, she's actually hit the board twice and both times were just as a stall tactic (life and 2 free flying blockers are pretty decent at stabilising).
Avacyn is vs control (both mirror and UR etc) and aggro, the ability to flash her in usually means the end of a planeswalker or clutch blocks - she's been quality all round and has performed well, have honestly considered main boarding to be honest....
I have been very happy to play Linvala in g2 vs aggro decks. My issue for MD is that it was another 6CC spell ... I may be wrong though.
Avacyn seems interesting..I mean people already played them in Baltimore...but I honestly thought they were important for the versions running more creatures and not so much for the creatureless versions of the deck. I had not considered the vs control angle. Will also try them =)
So, I just got back from a local PPTQ, and didn't do as well as I had hoped. I went 3-2, beating some sort of U/B that featured Geralf's messenger, Naya Superfriends, and Mono-red aggro/burn. What I lost to was two variants of Bant CoCo. To my knowledge, there was only 1 human deck; and the top 8 featured 3 coco lists, 2 Gitrog decks, and the last 3 being B/W Midrange, said human deck, and U/W Spirit Tempo (I think lol).
That's what I ran; obviously the sideboard is a bit of a mess. Honestly, I think I need to clean it up and figure out exactly what matchups warrant sideboarding and, if so, what comes out against them. My personal thoughts are to perhaps run a bit more creatures like Ayli and Wasteland Strangler to fend off the onrush of creatures from CoCo, who was a lot more prevalent than I expected.
Pretty much, I went 6-0 against non-Coco lists, who I simply removed creatures and then threw down my PW and ended up winning; or in the case of U/B just ended up winning the top deck battle with Ormendahl.
Anyways, I'd love to hear your guy's thoughts on what strategies we have against Coco, since I thought I understood the matchup and clearly don't, since I didn't even win a game.
I think you have to do away with 3 mainboard Ruinous Path. That sorcery speed hurts on top of the 3 Declaration you are already running plus 3 Unmaking dealing yourself an effective 9 dmg. I would say -2 Unmaking, -1 Oath, -2 Ruinous Path and go +2 Grasp, +2 Stasis Snare, +1 Ultimate Price. You need instant speed interaction vs Coco. I used to think the deck couldn't support the double black and white early but it can. Go -1 Abbey -1 Fen and +2 basics. I think Fen is weak now. You don't need 3 abbey since you are running card draw. Move one of those Unmaking's to the SB.
I see a ton of lists with not alot of answers to manlands. Ultimate Price, Unmaking, Declaration do not hit it. Stasis Snare is a good answer along side Grasp.
PLANESWALKERS
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Sorin, Grim Nemisis
2x Ob Nixlis Regnited
SORCERY
4x Transgress the Mind
3x Read the Bones
3x Declaration in Stone
2x Languish
1x Descend upon the Sinful
1x Ruinous Path
INSTANT
4x Grasp of Darkness
3x Secure the Wastes
2x Stasis Snare
2x Anguished Unmaking
1x Ultimate Price
SIDEBOARD
2x To the Slaughter
3x Hallowed Moonlight
3x Duress
2x Archangel Avacyn
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Languish
1x Linvala, the Perserver
1x Ultimate Price
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
It's been pretty good so far. I wasn't sold on To the Slaughter but by time I really want it I have Delirium. It's great vs Delirium decks and the Jund/Mardu decks running attrition match ups.
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4 Caves of Koilos
4 Shambling Vent
4 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Westvale Abbey/Ormendahl, Profane Prince
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Battlefield Forge
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Secure the Wastes
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ruinous Path
3 Languish
3 Transgress the Mind
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Declaration in Stone
1 Descend upon the Sinful
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Ultimate Price
3 Read the Bones
I feel like I want 4 Read the bones... but have yet to fidn the space..will perhaps do -1 Gideon + 1 Read the Bones. I would also like to add another wincon.. but sill figuring out what? a single Emeria perhaps? recycling PWs from landfall triggers is very nice.
The sideboard is still in flux. I want it to have 3 x thought-knot seer (that is why I run so many painlands MD..but still trying to figure out if the pain is worth it) and 3 x duress. And the usual suspects: 2 x Kalitas, 2 x Hallowed moonlight, 1 x virulent plague, 1 x dark petition, 1 x Linvala. Still figuring out other options.
What do people think of Pitiless horde in the sb?
Cheers
At the same time, if control decks like this are too good, then esper control is going to dominate or mill decks.
My current plan is to just play 2 sets of creatures. Ayli for early game blockage and Thought-knot seer for disruption. The only other set of creatures I think are worth playing are knights of the white orchard because they are amazing on the draw. So a set of 4 in the SB is worth it along with Linvala as a 1 of SB.
Making some good points here, but I feel like the hate towards avacyn is a little unjustified...there is a reason why half of the top 8 decks in the open ran multiple Avacyns...and also a reason why hard BW control didnt even make the top 20. Avacyn is a great card. The list you posted is similar to lists that were beaten by Avacyn decks at Baltimore open numerous times.
So lets be real...its obviously not a bad card. Maybe people in your meta just don't know how to use it?
That stuff aside. I like your list a lot, ill try it when i get the chance.
Every single 3 toughness creature deck running avacyn, i just blow them out after getting rid of always watching + kill a dude. Avacyn is a average good, not insanely good. It was good in tournaments for the sake of running new cards, after control with languish MB sees play. These decks will go down in numbers + WB humans are switching to invasive surgery, which means running 1-2 duress MB. Which isn't a big deal, since that also helps the deck to fight against a "tempo" deck with counters in it.
The ETB ability is also why the card falters. You are a control deck, not a creature deck. You don't have actual creatures you care about nor do you care about the creatures they are playing. Unless i see a deck with <3 toughness with avacyn, it makes you a midrange deck. Which we should excel at beating, since we are a mid-late game deck.
Mid-game PWer decks is the reason why im still running 2 anguish, i might take out a stasis snare for a path to out chandra mid-game.
// Lands
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Shambling Vent
6 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Westvale Abbey/Ormendahl, Profane Prince
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Battlefield Forge
// Spells
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Secure the Wastes
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ruinous Path
3 Languish
3 Transgress the Mind
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Declaration in Stone
1 Descend upon the Sinful
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Ultimate Price
3 Read the Bones
1 Transgress the Mind
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Read the Bones
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Duress
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Languish
1 Linvala, the Preserver
In retrospect..no one was playing ramp... so my idea of thought-knot seer was not be the best... although I did not get too much pain from the lands..Also..almost EVERYONE was playing some version of humans... to the point I am very tempted to go -3 trangress + 2 kalitas +1 linvala.. and perhaps go -3 thought-knot in the sb and get back to basic lands when possible.
Cheers
He Murders Some Part Of His World
These Are The Pale Deaths
Which Men Miscall Their Lives
All This I Cannot Bear
To Witness Any Longer
Cannot The Kingdom Of Salvation
Take Me Home
Cliff Burton---To Live Is To Die
My MOTL Refs
My H/W List
4-0 with the following list in standard portion:
4 Shambling Vent
4 forsaken Sanctuary
2 Westvale Abbey
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
7 Swamp
4 plains
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Linvala, The Preserver
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Secure the Wastes
3 Grasp of Darkness
3 Ruinous Path
4 Languish
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Declaration in Stone
1 Descend upon the Sinful
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Ultimate Price
3 Read the Bones
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Felidar Cub
3 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Stasis Snare
2 Infinite Obliteration
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Virulent Plague
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Planar Outburst
Matches were vs. UW Humans, GW Humans, BR Vampires, Esper Control.
went 2-1 in the top 8 draft portion to get second place for a bunch of packs and goodies, but the standard portion went perfectly. I expected a lot of creature match-ups today and I was rewarded:D Avoided the blue Eldrazi matchup luckily cuz he lost round 1, as reality smashers can be an issue for us.
Awesome! Yea i might drop 1-2 Languish in favour of something else if I knew i was playing agaisn't more variety, but in my local meta I expected mass humans. The only problem really was Dragonlord ojutai once they have Always Watching, but even then....you can anguished unmaking it or bait out combat or blighted Fen etc, we just have so many answers.
It depends on the list ur running really..languish, hallowed moonlight, transgress aiming for CoCo, Infinite Obliteration naming Bounding Krasis, taking out some gideon for Kalitas/Ayli couldn't hurt either.
Um, sorry, I have almost the same list as posted higher, full bw control.
Well either or really both can mess with ormendahl, I would rather still get in for 9 lifelink and then get him bounced that to have him tapped and die. But depends on situation for sure imo!
3x Declaration in Stone
3x Languish
3x Ruinous Path
2x Grasp of Darkness
3x Anguished Unmaking
3x Transgress the Mind
1x Descend upon the Sinful
3x Secure the Wastes
1x Oath of Gideon
3x Read the Bones
2x Kalitas
Planeswalkers:
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Lands:
4x Shambling Vent
3x Westvale Abbey
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Evolving Wilds
1x Blighted Fen
5x Swamp
5x Plains
1x Languish
1x Descend upon the Sinful
1x Oath of Gideon
2x Linvala, the Preserver
1x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
1x Read the Bones
3x Infinite Obliteration
1x Transgress the Mind
1x Dark Petition
3x Hallowed Moonlight
That's what I ran; obviously the sideboard is a bit of a mess. Honestly, I think I need to clean it up and figure out exactly what matchups warrant sideboarding and, if so, what comes out against them. My personal thoughts are to perhaps run a bit more creatures like Ayli and Wasteland Strangler to fend off the onrush of creatures from CoCo, who was a lot more prevalent than I expected.
Pretty much, I went 6-0 against non-Coco lists, who I simply removed creatures and then threw down my PW and ended up winning; or in the case of U/B just ended up winning the top deck battle with Ormendahl.
Anyways, I'd love to hear your guy's thoughts on what strategies we have against Coco, since I thought I understood the matchup and clearly don't, since I didn't even win a game.
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
T1 tapped land
T2 Removal for their Advocate/Jace (if languish in hand ) ELSE Discard
T3 Removal for their T3 creature or throw Secure the Wastes tokens in the way (never underestimate the power of chumpblockers to gain time).
T4 Gideon if no mana untapped for CoCo ELSE wait.
T5 .. same story but with other PWs.
Bottom line... . The strategy pre SB is to hold them at bay by killing their small dudes (specially the Advocate/Jace) and react to the CoCo with a Languish in the next turn. Ideally you would like them to be tapped enough in your turn 4, so you can play a Gideon without fearing a CoCo (2 creatures including reflector mage is byebye Gideon next attack). This is important because you want the Gideon to start generating blockers while you keep control the board with your spells and eventually other PWs. They will eventually run out of gas and your CA advantage engine in form of PWs takes over. Obviously it is not fool proof and variance/hands/etc. all influence the play. My advice is NEVER to fully tap to play a PW unless you are SURE that there will be enough blockers if they play the CoCo in your EOT to protect him. Game 2 is a bit of the same but being careful of counterspells and adding your own tricks like Hallowed moonlight/more discard. Gideon is not great as he is vulnerable when played on curve. Perhaps going -4 Gideon -1 Secure + 2 Kalitas + 1 Linvala + 2 Hallowed Moonlight is better post SB. It is a difficult matchup but I do not think it is unwinnable.
Hope this helps. Would be interested to hear how were your games vs CoCo in early turns to compare to my experience.
So this is my current list, went quite well FNM last week, although folded to Mardu control using darkdweller/k command trains unfortunately.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
My current thoughts are side the Duress and bring in the Transgress to the mb, potentially swap out the oaths for more removal?
SB is currently all over the shop while I figure out the local meta...have only played UR control, Mardu control and BR Vamps (I know there are 3 of these around locally).
4x Caves of Koilos
2x Forsaken Sanctuary
6x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
7x Swamp
2x Westvale Abbey
Planeswalker
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Enchantment
2x Oath of Gideon
3x Declaration in Stone
3x Duress
2x Languish
4x Read the Bones
2x Ruinous Path
Instant
3x Anguished Unmaking
3x Grasp of Darkness
3x Secure the Wastes
2x Ultimate Price
Creature
1x Linvala, the Preserver
2x Archangel Avacyn
1x Dark Petition
2x Descend upon the Sinful
2x Hallowed Moonlight
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Surge of Righteousness
2x Transgress the Mind
Thanks guys!
-LG
Nice list. Couple of questions:
1. How are the 25 lands running for you ? I am running 26 and I barely mulligan. Which is always positive IMO.
2. I am intrigued by your Avacyn from the sb. What are you sbing it against? Mirror match , aggro ? Is Linvala worth MD? I find it dies very easily in G1 when decks have all the removal in. Gets much better G2.
Cheers
Linvala is a tricky one, she's actually hit the board twice and both times were just as a stall tactic (life and 2 free flying blockers are pretty decent at stabilising).
Avacyn is vs control (both mirror and UR etc) and aggro, the ability to flash her in usually means the end of a planeswalker or clutch blocks - she's been quality all round and has performed well, have honestly considered main boarding to be honest....
She seems to always come in with life and usually another angel in the games I have played. Seems to draw hate, but ill take the 3 for 1.
I have been very happy to play Linvala in g2 vs aggro decks. My issue for MD is that it was another 6CC spell ... I may be wrong though.
Avacyn seems interesting..I mean people already played them in Baltimore...but I honestly thought they were important for the versions running more creatures and not so much for the creatureless versions of the deck. I had not considered the vs control angle. Will also try them =)
I think you have to do away with 3 mainboard Ruinous Path. That sorcery speed hurts on top of the 3 Declaration you are already running plus 3 Unmaking dealing yourself an effective 9 dmg. I would say -2 Unmaking, -1 Oath, -2 Ruinous Path and go +2 Grasp, +2 Stasis Snare, +1 Ultimate Price. You need instant speed interaction vs Coco. I used to think the deck couldn't support the double black and white early but it can. Go -1 Abbey -1 Fen and +2 basics. I think Fen is weak now. You don't need 3 abbey since you are running card draw. Move one of those Unmaking's to the SB.
I see a ton of lists with not alot of answers to manlands. Ultimate Price, Unmaking, Declaration do not hit it. Stasis Snare is a good answer along side Grasp.
LANDS
4x Shambling Vent
4x Caves of Koilos
3x Evolving Wilds
2x Forsaken Sanctuary
5x Plains
6x Swamp
2x Westvale Abbey
CREATURE
Linvala, the Perserver
PLANESWALKERS
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Sorin, Grim Nemisis
2x Ob Nixlis Regnited
SORCERY
4x Transgress the Mind
3x Read the Bones
3x Declaration in Stone
2x Languish
1x Descend upon the Sinful
1x Ruinous Path
INSTANT
4x Grasp of Darkness
3x Secure the Wastes
2x Stasis Snare
2x Anguished Unmaking
1x Ultimate Price
SIDEBOARD
2x To the Slaughter
3x Hallowed Moonlight
3x Duress
2x Archangel Avacyn
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Languish
1x Linvala, the Perserver
1x Ultimate Price
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
It's been pretty good so far. I wasn't sold on To the Slaughter but by time I really want it I have Delirium. It's great vs Delirium decks and the Jund/Mardu decks running attrition match ups.