How come nobody play the ulvenwald hydra in their list? That creature has been an absolute house in my testing. It comes down consistently on turn 4 as a 6/6 reach and you can grab either a rogue passage to start beating down or a shrine of the forsaken gods to ramp up to Ulamog.
My answer, play conduit of ruin instead, play Ulamog or WorldBreaker next turn.
How come nobody play the ulvenwald hydra in their list? That creature has been an absolute house in my testing. It comes down consistently on turn 4 as a 6/6 reach and you can grab either a rogue passage to start beating down or a shrine of the forsaken gods to ramp up to Ulamog.
My answer, play conduit of ruin instead, play Ulamog or WorldBreaker next turn.
The Reach is very, very relevant. So is the ability to grab a singleton rogue's passage.
How come nobody play the ulvenwald hydra in their list? That creature has been an absolute house in my testing. It comes down consistently on turn 4 as a 6/6 reach and you can grab either a rogue passage to start beating down or a shrine of the forsaken gods to ramp up to Ulamog.
My answer, play conduit of ruin instead, play Ulamog or WorldBreaker next turn.
The Reach is very, very relevant. So is the ability to grab a singleton rogue's passage.
To be honest I just don't see Rogue's Passage in this deck. The mana base is pretty tight as it is; without trying to fit another utility land; especially if you are playing the Ruin in their Wake build. Since to get that build to work; you are already cutting down on the number of Sanctum's and Shrines you are running to get enough Wastes so that it works as Rampant Growth. Most Ruin mana bases look similar to Voltage's:
So what are you cutting to fit the Passage? You can possibly go down to 4 Wastes but it then lowers your chances of getting Ruin to work as Rampant Growth on turn 2 consistently.
If you are running mana dorks then you normally have more room for the utility lands since most of them have a mana base that look something like this:
I'm starting to feel that only running 4 sources R mana is too few (this very well could just be because of my terrible luck). I've had a few games over the last few weeks to where I didn't have an Oath on the board and didn't have RR to cast Chandra or I didn't have a R source to be able to cast DLA; KR or any of the other Red removal that I was running out of the sideboard. Which is why I'm looking to up the R count to 6 sources and I've started to make sure that when I do cast Explosive Vegetation that I search for 2 mountains if I don't have at least 1 R source already in play. This way even if I do have an Oath in play; I can still play Chandra if they remove the Oath.
Psy
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How come nobody play the ulvenwald hydra in their list? That creature has been an absolute house in my testing. It comes down consistently on turn 4 as a 6/6 reach and you can grab either a rogue passage to start beating down or a shrine of the forsaken gods to ramp up to Ulamog.
My answer, play conduit of ruin instead, play Ulamog or WorldBreaker next turn.
The Reach is very, very relevant. So is the ability to grab a singleton rogue's passage.
To be honest I just don't see Rogue's Passage in this deck. The mana base is pretty tight as it is; without trying to fit another utility land; especially if you are playing the Ruin in their Wake build. Since to get that build to work; you are already cutting down on the number of Sanctum's and Shrines you are running to get enough Wastes so that it works as Rampant Growth. Most Ruin mana bases look similar to Voltage's:
So what are you cutting to fit the Passage? You can possibly go down to 4 Wastes but it then lowers your chances of getting Ruin to work as Rampant Growth on turn 2 consistently.
If you are running mana dorks then you normally have more room for the utility lands since most of them have a mana base that look something like this:
I'm starting to feel that only running 4 sources R mana is too few (this very well could just be because of my terrible luck). I've had a few games over the last few weeks to where I didn't have an Oath on the board and didn't have RR to cast Chandra or I didn't have a R source to be able to cast DLA; KR or any of the other Red removal that I was running out of the sideboard. Which is why I'm looking to up the R count to 6 sources and I've started to make sure that when I do cast Explosive Vegetation that I search for 2 mountains if I don't have at least 1 R source already in play. This way even if I do have an Oath in play; I can still play Chandra if they remove the Oath.
Psy
I'm playing hedron crawler instead of ruin. You are right, though, if you are playing ruin then it's tough to also play rogue's passage.
Ulamog is tough without shrine.
T1:Land
T2:Land, crawler
T3:Land, veggies
T4:Land, Hydra grab Shrine
T5:shrine, Ulamog
Shrine on T5 isnt required, any land will do.
A T5 Ulamog in this scenario is only possible with two Shrines. 7 lands (two being Shrine) will generate 9 mana plus the crawler makes 10.
T1:Land
T2:Land, crawler (or death cap, Wake or sylvan scrying>shrine=+1@7lands)
T3:Land, veggies or archive
T4:Land, Hydra grab Shrine or Conduit fetch Ula or WB
T5:Any land, Ulamog
5 turns > 5 lands=5
Veg=2, crawler =1, Shrine=2 > 5 (Land drop on 5th turn gives 7 lands in play, turns shrine on.)
10
Hey guys, trying to break this down, need confirmation on the %s/ the Math.
Help me out here.
Things to think about: Ruin in the Wake
I use this calculator for my %s: http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx
In order to have this conversation there is only a 44% chance we have Ruin in their Wake in our hand by Turn 2
To have 4 Evolving Wilds or 4 Traverse the Ulvenwald in your opening hand its 65%, 40% for either independently.
10 T1 green sources give us a 74% chance to cast Oath of Nissa or Traverse T1.
We need MINIMUM 2 mountains to cast our spells, 3 would be better incase one is destroyed/discarded etc so I am going to start with 3 basic mountains.
We only need one Waste to turn on Ruin, but the more we run the more we might draw or find with Oath, im going to start with 3. Sanctum of Ugin is a great card but we have less cards to trigger it with Ugin leaving and we play Traverse and I might play Conduit of Ruin, lets play 2 Sanctum of Ugin.
if you expect ramp to be a large part of your meta then the non wastes versions are better because they have a more consistent ramp plan
I tried last a lot last season to get the wastes version to work and it just wasn't quick enough against the mono g and r/g all in ramp versions
I've been doing better against the mirrors with my build because of warping wail, but that's me. I have cut 1 wastes for 1 transverse the ulvenlwald and that has been fine for me.
My theory about Game Trail vs Cinder Glade is that a topdecked Game trail is always tapped while an early cinder glade can either be played 1st turn or as our 3rd turn play as we usually have enough basics due to playing around 20 including evolving wilds. There may be some awkward hand including multiple Cinder Glade / Sanctum of Ugin and even evolving wilds, but those are rare and even then you can usually plan your land drops around your hand or just mull.
how do you beat this deck without thing in the ice prowess(i dont have jace x4)
deck doesnt seem beatable
Some of the more aggressive decks have game against it. The faster Vampires decks had a good matchup and I've been having success with GW Humans. The midrangier decks have a lot of problems with it though, and that combined with the fact that the deck is already a known quantity leads me to believe that it will be the deck to beat at the beginning of the format.
if you expect ramp to be a large part of your meta then the non wastes versions are better because they have a more consistent ramp plan
I tried last a lot last season to get the wastes version to work and it just wasn't quick enough against the mono g and r/g all in ramp versions
problem I have with the dork version is all the removal and sweepers that will be present at the beginning of rotation. Historically the time when hyperaggro comes out. People know this and will prepare for it. Running Chandras and K.RTNs, those dorks arent going to last.
Traverse the Ulvenwald and the exit of rattleclaw mystic are the differences in going for the Ruin in their Wake Version.
I've been doing better against the mirrors with my build because of warping wail, but that's me. I have cut 1 wastes for 1 transverse the ulvenlwald and that has been fine for me.
Votlage, after the testing you have done what does your 75 look like now?
My theory about Game Trail vs Cinder Glade is that a topdecked Game trail is always tapped while an early cinder glade can either be played 1st turn or as our 3rd turn play as we usually have enough basics due to playing around 20 including evolving wilds. There may be some awkward hand including multiple Cinder Glade / Sanctum of Ugin and even evolving wilds, but those are rare and even then you can usually plan your land drops around your hand or just mull.
I have been playing 4 wastes, 4 traverse the ulvenwald and 4 evolving wilds and never had any problem to get ruin in their wake online.
I could also go to 5 wastes without any problems if i feel the need to.
4 oath of nissa also helps to find wastes.
i am running 2 mountains and 1 cinder glade, those are the only red sources i have and i was always able to cast chandra/atarka (chandra is enabled by oath of nissa aswell).
Of course teh evolving wilds could also find a mountain.
I have cut all my shrines and only play 1 sanctum of ugin (i'm running 2 ulvenwald hydras that can grab it).
I don't think chaining world breakers is as effective as it used to be and without Ugin we don't really need the shrines anymore.
Without him we also have less options to activate the sanctum.
I'd never play game trail in this deck, cinder glade makes a lot more sense imo.
I'm looking at going back to RitW set up. Land base wise is Cinder Glade really important? I get that it taps for 2 colors but it CIP Tapped, I don't mind running 3 mountain, 10 Forrest instead.
After some thorough testing agaisnt Mono-Red Eldrazi (because I felt it would probably be a tough matchup for us) I have some thoughts. First, just in general, I'm thinking I need to go up one forest at least, because I had to mull a few good hands due to no green source. That felt really bad. Second, our matchup against that deck (at least the build I was testing against) is actually better before sideboards, because the builds I've seen run more Thought-knots in the side. And then there is Eldrazi Obligator. I had at least three games where I stabilized only to be killed by Eldrazi Obligator and my own Atarka/World Breaker. I'm thinking that means I should be siding in Gaea's Revenge, simply because it can't be targeted by the effect but it has me puzzled.
I didn't keep track of wins / losses for the pre-board games, but I'd say maybe 60/40 to 65/35 in our favor and that's with them on the play.
Against Mono-red Eldrazi I sided out the dorks for Roasts, and one Nissa's Pilgrimage for the 4th Kozilek's Return. This seemed to work pretty well though of course Reality Smasher is ... well... Reality Smasher, and there is no way I could think of to counter the Obligators other than, again poisslby siding out I guess Atarka(?) for Gaea's Revenge. I've also considered changing them main to 2 Dragonlord Atarka, 4 Chandra, Flamecaller, because she just does so much work in this deck.
I'll have to test a little more as I'm just now realizing Warping Wail was overlooked in their sideboard. Dunno if they'd side that in just to counter ramp or not when they have Thought-knots, but I'll see how that goes.
I'm looking at going back to RitW set up. Land base wise is Cinder Glade really important? I get that it taps for 2 colors but it CIP Tapped, I don't mind running 3 mountain, 10 Forrest instead.
I don't run Ruin; so my answer is based on running the dork version.
Since the only 1 drop that I run that I might want to play on turn 1 is Oath; having 2 Cinder Glades in my 25 lands; hasn't slowed me down and has helped me cast my other spells on curve when needed. If I don't have an Oath in my opening hand or one that I want to play on turn 1 if I do; I have no issues with playing a Cinder Glade tapped turn 1. I've not had any issues with it CIP tapped after turn 3 so for me that hasn't been a problem.
As I stated in an earlier post; I'm thinking of increasing the number of R sources in my deck. Prior to SOI I had a total of 8 sources that could produce R (4 Rattleclaw's; 2 Cinder Glades; 2 Mountains) plus I also ran Haven when helped me cast DLA. Since I'm not running Ruin; when SOI is legal this Friday; I'll only have 4 spells that will allow me to search for a Mountain (Explosive Vegetation) and 4 that will allow me to dig 3 cards deep to pull any land (Oath). I currently have 13 spells between my MD and SB that require a R and 4 of those require RR. So only having 4 sources that can produce R has made me a bit nervous; since I can only really search for one effectively using Explosive Vegetation.
Now while Oath helps with not needing R mana to cast Chandra; it doesn't help me cast DLA, Roast; Rending Volley; DLA; etc. So I'm thinking of increasing the number of R sources to 6 or 7 to help make sure I have one in play when needed. It is also why I now search for two mountains off my 1st cast of Explosive Vegetation to make sure that I can cast Chandra without an Oath in play.
If you are running Ruin and Traverse the Ulvenwald along with Oath and Evolving Wilds; then I can see you being able to get away with playing fewer R producing lands; since you will have more ways to search one up then if you are playing mana dorks.
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I'm looking at going back to RitW set up. Land base wise is Cinder Glade really important? I get that it taps for 2 colors but it CIP Tapped, I don't mind running 3 mountain, 10 Forrest instead.
Thats my suggested foundation, what would you suggest adding?
I like +1 Waste for 4, people have been talking about how thats a good number.
I definately want to up the red count, I think 1 Cinder Glade is ok.
- Im off Game trail
Maybe +1: Waste, Mountain and Cinder Glade?
After some thorough testing agaisnt Mono-Red Eldrazi (because I felt it would probably be a tough matchup for us) I have some thoughts. First, just in general, I'm thinking I need to go up one forest at least, because I had to mull a few good hands due to no green source. That felt really bad. Second, our matchup against that deck (at least the build I was testing against) is actually better before sideboards, because the builds I've seen run more Thought-knots in the side. And then there is Eldrazi Obligator. I had at least three games where I stabilized only to be killed by Eldrazi Obligator and my own Atarka/World Breaker. I'm thinking that means I should be siding in Gaea's Revenge, simply because it can't be targeted by the effect but it has me puzzled.
I didn't keep track of wins / losses for the pre-board games, but I'd say maybe 60/40 to 65/35 in our favor and that's with them on the play.
Against Mono-red Eldrazi I sided out the dorks for Roasts, and one Nissa's Pilgrimage for the 4th Kozilek's Return. This seemed to work pretty well though of course Reality Smasher is ... well... Reality Smasher, and there is no way I could think of to counter the Obligators other than, again poisslby siding out I guess Atarka(?) for Gaea's Revenge. I've also considered changing them main to 2 Dragonlord Atarka, 4 Chandra, Flamecaller, because she just does so much work in this deck.
I'll have to test a little more as I'm just now realizing Warping Wail was overlooked in their sideboard. Dunno if they'd side that in just to counter ramp or not when they have Thought-knots, but I'll see how that goes.
What about -1 Sanctum, +1 Forest? Consider that you are running 4 Traverses, they can search up whatever you want, not just a colorless creature.
Also to ensure that delirium is enabled, What about Hedron Crawler over Deathcap? Its easier to cast as well.
Do you think 23 lands is really correct?
I would mark that 4th pilgrimage and 3rd Atarka as lands of your choice to see how many times it comes up that it would have been better if it were a land.
I'm looking at going back to RitW set up. Land base wise is Cinder Glade really important? I get that it taps for 2 colors but it CIP Tapped, I don't mind running 3 mountain, 10 Forrest instead.
Thats my suggested foundation, what would you suggest adding?
I like +1 Waste for 4, people have been talking about how thats a good number.
I definately want to up the red count, I think 1 Cinder Glade is ok.
- Im off Game trail
Maybe +1: Waste, Mountain and Cinder Glade?
After some thorough testing agaisnt Mono-Red Eldrazi (because I felt it would probably be a tough matchup for us) I have some thoughts. First, just in general, I'm thinking I need to go up one forest at least, because I had to mull a few good hands due to no green source. That felt really bad. Second, our matchup against that deck (at least the build I was testing against) is actually better before sideboards, because the builds I've seen run more Thought-knots in the side. And then there is Eldrazi Obligator. I had at least three games where I stabilized only to be killed by Eldrazi Obligator and my own Atarka/World Breaker. I'm thinking that means I should be siding in Gaea's Revenge, simply because it can't be targeted by the effect but it has me puzzled.
I didn't keep track of wins / losses for the pre-board games, but I'd say maybe 60/40 to 65/35 in our favor and that's with them on the play.
Against Mono-red Eldrazi I sided out the dorks for Roasts, and one Nissa's Pilgrimage for the 4th Kozilek's Return. This seemed to work pretty well though of course Reality Smasher is ... well... Reality Smasher, and there is no way I could think of to counter the Obligators other than, again poisslby siding out I guess Atarka(?) for Gaea's Revenge. I've also considered changing them main to 2 Dragonlord Atarka, 4 Chandra, Flamecaller, because she just does so much work in this deck.
I'll have to test a little more as I'm just now realizing Warping Wail was overlooked in their sideboard. Dunno if they'd side that in just to counter ramp or not when they have Thought-knots, but I'll see how that goes.
What about -1 Sanctum, +1 Forest? Consider that you are running 4 Traverses, they can search up whatever you want, not just a colorless creature.
Also to ensure that delirium is enabled, What about Hedron Crawler over Deathcap? Its easier to cast as well.
Do you think 23 lands is really correct?
I would mark that 4th pilgrimage and 3rd Atarka as lands of your choice to see how many times it comes up that it would have been better if it were a land.
Thanks for the input. I'll definitely test it out. I have a note, too, in terms of other match ups with aggro. W/x Humans is running Eerie Interlude which can be a really nasty surprise against what should have been a very timely board wipe.
I was thinking only four 4drops were 2 few, should I change the 2 hedron archives to Pilgrimages?
This early in the format will a 4th Chandra be REALLY useful?
This early in the format will a 4th Chandra be REALLY useful?
Early formats have historically been dominated by aggro decks. without a wipe card or otherwise equally aggressive deck you will have bad match-ups.
In a purely theoretical situation here, as i have not looked at any B/R vamp madness deck lists, without a board wipe or very many creatures how do you intend to deal with the following 4 turns?
That's 7 cards of 10-11 they get. you get 4-5 turns to interact with there board before.
Personally I'd say the 4th Chandra will be very useful, worse case scenario, the 2ed or 3rd copy is in your hand with one on the board that you can use to clear then play another and swing for 6.
I was thinking only four 4drops were 2 few, should I change the 2 hedron archives to Pilgrimages?
This early in the format will a 4th Chandra be REALLY useful?
I think that people should be playing 4 Chandra's. Most lists previously were running a 3/2; 3/3 or 2/3 split of Ugin and Chandra. With another Ugin/Chandra in the SB. Chandra is going to have a big target on her back with all the hype she is getting with "experts" calling her one of the best cards for the new standard. She will also be our best way to control and stabilize the board game 1; unless you are running KR in the main. So against aggressive decks I can see her coming down before World Breaker (even if we have 7 mana available) and her -X ability being used to clear the board. I also see that there will be times to where the -X will be 4 right off the bat; so having a 3 more copies that can be drawn is going to help.
I look at Hedron Archive as not only a way for us to ramp into 6 or 7 mana by turn 4; but also as added card draw if I start to flood out later in the game. As for Pilgrimage; I think that it should be played; since it gives us something play on turn 3 if we don't have 4 mana to play Explosive or Archive; and if we do have the 4 mana and neither of those cards in hand; it still helps us get to the magical 6 mana figure on turn 4 to play Chandra. Since you are putting a forest on the battlefield and another in your hand. It also keeps you from having to mulligan some hands; since you can still get to 6 mana on turn 4.
Psy
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My answer, play conduit of ruin instead, play Ulamog or WorldBreaker next turn.
Shrine on T5 isnt required, any land will do.
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The Reach is very, very relevant. So is the ability to grab a singleton rogue's passage.
To be honest I just don't see Rogue's Passage in this deck. The mana base is pretty tight as it is; without trying to fit another utility land; especially if you are playing the Ruin in their Wake build. Since to get that build to work; you are already cutting down on the number of Sanctum's and Shrines you are running to get enough Wastes so that it works as Rampant Growth. Most Ruin mana bases look similar to Voltage's:
So what are you cutting to fit the Passage? You can possibly go down to 4 Wastes but it then lowers your chances of getting Ruin to work as Rampant Growth on turn 2 consistently.
If you are running mana dorks then you normally have more room for the utility lands since most of them have a mana base that look something like this:
I'm starting to feel that only running 4 sources R mana is too few (this very well could just be because of my terrible luck). I've had a few games over the last few weeks to where I didn't have an Oath on the board and didn't have RR to cast Chandra or I didn't have a R source to be able to cast DLA; KR or any of the other Red removal that I was running out of the sideboard. Which is why I'm looking to up the R count to 6 sources and I've started to make sure that when I do cast Explosive Vegetation that I search for 2 mountains if I don't have at least 1 R source already in play. This way even if I do have an Oath in play; I can still play Chandra if they remove the Oath.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
A T5 Ulamog in this scenario is only possible with two Shrines. 7 lands (two being Shrine) will generate 9 mana plus the crawler makes 10.
T1:Land
T2:Land, crawler (or death cap, Wake or sylvan scrying>shrine=+1@7lands)
T3:Land, veggies or archive
T4:Land, Hydra grab Shrine or Conduit fetch Ula or WB
T5:Any land, Ulamog
5 turns > 5 lands=5
Veg=2, crawler =1, Shrine=2 > 5 (Land drop on 5th turn gives 7 lands in play, turns shrine on.)
10
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Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Help me out here.
Things to think about: Ruin in the Wake
I use this calculator for my %s: http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx
In order to have this conversation there is only a 44% chance we have Ruin in their Wake in our hand by Turn 2
To have 4 Evolving Wilds or 4 Traverse the Ulvenwald in your opening hand its 65%, 40% for either independently.
10 T1 green sources give us a 74% chance to cast Oath of Nissa or Traverse T1.
We need MINIMUM 2 mountains to cast our spells, 3 would be better incase one is destroyed/discarded etc so I am going to start with 3 basic mountains.
We only need one Waste to turn on Ruin, but the more we run the more we might draw or find with Oath, im going to start with 3.
Sanctum of Ugin is a great card but we have less cards to trigger it with Ugin leaving and we play Traverse and I might play Conduit of Ruin, lets play 2 Sanctum of Ugin.
Manabase
So far that leaves us with:
10 Forest
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Mountain
3 Waste
2 Sanctum of Ugin
That leaves us with 3 slots (if you want 25).
+X Wastes?
+1/2 mountain?
Add singleton; Rogue's Passage, Cinder Glade, Game Trail, blighted woodland...
Thoughts on Game Trail & Cinder Glade, one is good early, the other not, one is better late than the other....which is more important?
My first draft is going to be
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Mountain
4 Waste
2 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Cinder Glade
1 Game Trail
thoughts, corrections
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Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
4 waste
4 raverse the Ulvenwald
4 ruin the wake
It hasn't been as great as I hoped.
A lot less constant
But I'm gonna give it a few more day. Might be just me
if you expect ramp to be a large part of your meta then the non wastes versions are better because they have a more consistent ramp plan
I tried last a lot last season to get the wastes version to work and it just wasn't quick enough against the mono g and r/g all in ramp versions
Modern: UW Spirits
Modern: UW Spirits
deck doesnt seem beatable
you do the luck luck dance.
It is preformed thusly
Some of the more aggressive decks have game against it. The faster Vampires decks had a good matchup and I've been having success with GW Humans. The midrangier decks have a lot of problems with it though, and that combined with the fact that the deck is already a known quantity leads me to believe that it will be the deck to beat at the beginning of the format.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Oh, I had it in my head that the Hydra brought the land to hand and not the battlefield.
problem I have with the dork version is all the removal and sweepers that will be present at the beginning of rotation. Historically the time when hyperaggro comes out. People know this and will prepare for it. Running Chandras and K.RTNs, those dorks arent going to last.
Traverse the Ulvenwald and the exit of rattleclaw mystic are the differences in going for the Ruin in their Wake Version.
Votlage, after the testing you have done what does your 75 look like now?
Yea, I agree
what does your decklist look like?
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
RWW Eldrazi Goggles
I didn't keep track of wins / losses for the pre-board games, but I'd say maybe 60/40 to 65/35 in our favor and that's with them on the play.
Post-board:
When they went first: 7 wins for ramp, 10 losses
When Ramp went first: 12 wins for ramp, 5 losses
This is my last as it stands now:
4 Deathcap Cultivator
3 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 World Breaker
Enchantment (3)
3 Oath of Nissa
Instant (3)
3 Kozilek's Return
Planeswalker (3)
3 Chandra, Flamecaller
Sorcery (16)
4 Explosive Vegetation
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Ruin in Their Wake
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Cinder Glade
4 Evolving Wilds
8 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Wastes
1 Conduit of Ruin
2 Gaea's Revenge
3 Clip Wings
1 Kozilek's Return
4 Warping Wail
4 Roast
Against Mono-red Eldrazi I sided out the dorks for Roasts, and one Nissa's Pilgrimage for the 4th Kozilek's Return. This seemed to work pretty well though of course Reality Smasher is ... well... Reality Smasher, and there is no way I could think of to counter the Obligators other than, again poisslby siding out I guess Atarka(?) for Gaea's Revenge. I've also considered changing them main to 2 Dragonlord Atarka, 4 Chandra, Flamecaller, because she just does so much work in this deck.
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Hedron Crawler
3 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thopter Engineer
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Vile Aggregate
Instants (5)
3 Outnumber
2 Spatial Contortion
4 Chandra Flamecaller
Sorceries (1)
1 Roast
Land (25)
2 Battlefield Forge
4 Foundry of the Consuls
11 Mountain
2 Ruins of Oran-Rief
4 Shivan Reef
2 Westvale Abbey
3 Eldrazi Obligator
1 Thought-knot Seer
1 Rending Volley
3 Tears of Valakut
2 Warping Wail
3 Boiling Earth
2 Roast
I'll have to test a little more as I'm just now realizing Warping Wail was overlooked in their sideboard. Dunno if they'd side that in just to counter ramp or not when they have Thought-knots, but I'll see how that goes.
I don't run Ruin; so my answer is based on running the dork version.
Since the only 1 drop that I run that I might want to play on turn 1 is Oath; having 2 Cinder Glades in my 25 lands; hasn't slowed me down and has helped me cast my other spells on curve when needed. If I don't have an Oath in my opening hand or one that I want to play on turn 1 if I do; I have no issues with playing a Cinder Glade tapped turn 1. I've not had any issues with it CIP tapped after turn 3 so for me that hasn't been a problem.
As I stated in an earlier post; I'm thinking of increasing the number of R sources in my deck. Prior to SOI I had a total of 8 sources that could produce R (4 Rattleclaw's; 2 Cinder Glades; 2 Mountains) plus I also ran Haven when helped me cast DLA. Since I'm not running Ruin; when SOI is legal this Friday; I'll only have 4 spells that will allow me to search for a Mountain (Explosive Vegetation) and 4 that will allow me to dig 3 cards deep to pull any land (Oath). I currently have 13 spells between my MD and SB that require a R and 4 of those require RR. So only having 4 sources that can produce R has made me a bit nervous; since I can only really search for one effectively using Explosive Vegetation.
Now while Oath helps with not needing R mana to cast Chandra; it doesn't help me cast DLA, Roast; Rending Volley; DLA; etc. So I'm thinking of increasing the number of R sources to 6 or 7 to help make sure I have one in play when needed. It is also why I now search for two mountains off my 1st cast of Explosive Vegetation to make sure that I can cast Chandra without an Oath in play.
If you are running Ruin and Traverse the Ulvenwald along with Oath and Evolving Wilds; then I can see you being able to get away with playing fewer R producing lands; since you will have more ways to search one up then if you are playing mana dorks.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Mountain
3 Waste
2 Sanctum of Ugin
Thats my suggested foundation, what would you suggest adding?
I like +1 Waste for 4, people have been talking about how thats a good number.
I definately want to up the red count, I think 1 Cinder Glade is ok.
- Im off Game trail
Maybe +1: Waste, Mountain and Cinder Glade?
What about -1 Sanctum, +1 Forest? Consider that you are running 4 Traverses, they can search up whatever you want, not just a colorless creature.
Also to ensure that delirium is enabled, What about Hedron Crawler over Deathcap? Its easier to cast as well.
Do you think 23 lands is really correct?
I would mark that 4th pilgrimage and 3rd Atarka as lands of your choice to see how many times it comes up that it would have been better if it were a land.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Thanks for the input. I'll definitely test it out. I have a note, too, in terms of other match ups with aggro. W/x Humans is running Eerie Interlude which can be a really nasty surprise against what should have been a very timely board wipe.
4 Hedron Crawler
2 Conduit of ruin - minus 1, +1 Chandra?
4 Worldbreaker
2 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - if I take 1 out what do I put in, especially if I take a conduit out for the 4th Chandra?
4 Oath of Nissa - maybe I can get away with 3, but what if I play 4 chandra?
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Ruin in their Wake
4 Explosive Vegatation
2 Hedron Archive - replace with Nissa's Pilgrimage?
3 Chandra, Flamecaller - add 4th, remove 1 Conduit of Ruin?
10 Forest
4 Waste
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Mountain
2 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Cinder Glade
I was thinking only four 4drops were 2 few, should I change the 2 hedron archives to Pilgrimages?
This early in the format will a 4th Chandra be REALLY useful?
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Early formats have historically been dominated by aggro decks. without a wipe card or otherwise equally aggressive deck you will have bad match-ups.
In a purely theoretical situation here, as i have not looked at any B/R vamp madness deck lists, without a board wipe or very many creatures how do you intend to deal with the following 4 turns?
T1: Land, Falkenrath Gorger / Insolent Neonate
T2: Land, Heir of Falkenrath / Asylum Visitor / Ravenous Bloodseeker / Bloodmad Vampire (hit for 1-2 damage total)
T3: Land, Bloodmad Vampire / Olivia, Mobilized for War / Incorrigible Youths (hit for 5-6 damage total)
T4: Exquisite Firecraft / Collateral Damage / Alms of the Vein / Fiery Temper (hit for 15-19 damage total)
T5: Death
That's 7 cards of 10-11 they get. you get 4-5 turns to interact with there board before.
Personally I'd say the 4th Chandra will be very useful, worse case scenario, the 2ed or 3rd copy is in your hand with one on the board that you can use to clear then play another and swing for 6.
I think that people should be playing 4 Chandra's. Most lists previously were running a 3/2; 3/3 or 2/3 split of Ugin and Chandra. With another Ugin/Chandra in the SB. Chandra is going to have a big target on her back with all the hype she is getting with "experts" calling her one of the best cards for the new standard. She will also be our best way to control and stabilize the board game 1; unless you are running KR in the main. So against aggressive decks I can see her coming down before World Breaker (even if we have 7 mana available) and her -X ability being used to clear the board. I also see that there will be times to where the -X will be 4 right off the bat; so having a 3 more copies that can be drawn is going to help.
I look at Hedron Archive as not only a way for us to ramp into 6 or 7 mana by turn 4; but also as added card draw if I start to flood out later in the game. As for Pilgrimage; I think that it should be played; since it gives us something play on turn 3 if we don't have 4 mana to play Explosive or Archive; and if we do have the 4 mana and neither of those cards in hand; it still helps us get to the magical 6 mana figure on turn 4 to play Chandra. Since you are putting a forest on the battlefield and another in your hand. It also keeps you from having to mulligan some hands; since you can still get to 6 mana on turn 4.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0