If Tyrant was soooo OP why doesnt it see 4x in every green deck? 6 CMC. This deck should be able to kill by turn 7 consistently which means on the play, tyrant doesnt even get to attack. On the draw, it attacks once and then they die.
I would say that the other mono colored decks are rough matchups while multicolored decks like sultai/control are probly much easier. The biggest threat to us are the monocolored 3 drops. Cainwhirler wiping our x/1s, steel leaf an unblockable 5/4 on turn 2, and benalish marshall pumping all those weenies...we cant do much against that
I dont understand your issue with the card. It HARDLY sees main deck play. If you want to smash cardboard together, yea, i'd assume this is an infuriating card to play against, but it doesn't do when against so many of the typical strategies out there.
FANAttIC->"Just slap Metamorphic Alteration on random creature, copy the most unfair creature ever and go to their face, they can block or not. Or copy your Djinn and go to town."
Nope.
In Responce, I counterspell
In Responce, I kill your creature
In Responce, I kill your Djinn
Fanattic, every part of your justification doesn't work.
Counter/Kill, don't work on Death Lizard, and is why he is format defining
Counter/Kill, destroys Metamorphic Alteration, and is why it is just dinky.
Potdindt "If Tyrant was soooo OP why doesnt it see 4x in every green deck? "
Reason 1 :
Carnage Tyrant costs $35
Our entire deck costs $50
Potdindt "If Tyrant was soooo OP why doesnt it see 4x in every green deck? 6 CMC."
Reason 2 :
Jace, The Mind Sculpter is the definition of Busted Plainswalker.
And yet many decks that could play 4, DON'T. I could play 4 in Vintage, but I only play 1.
4x Copies of Death Lizard is not required to demonstrate he is obviously utterly unfair.
Potdindt "This deck should be able to kill by turn 7 consistently which means on the play, tyrant doesnt even get to attack. On the draw, it attacks once and then they die."
Oh Really?
Try playing the match-up, because reality is elsewhere. Sure seemed that way when I played it.
Black/Green staples : Dead Weight, Assasin's Trophy, Ravenous Chuppa, Vivien, Cast Down, Kraul Harpooner, Vraska's Contempt
Mono-U has a hard time dealing with that.
No way are you winning consistently on turn 7. Sure, If you get the dream draw on the play, you with suit up a 1 drop and skate thru with an Obsession, and draw protection spells. And if you don't you will die to the Death Lizard, a lot.
Those cards are all listed in most decks from the PROVEN G/B section of this site.
A_E_I_Own_U "I dont understand your issue with the card. It HARDLY sees main deck play."
Reality disagrees with you.
'Carnage Tyrant' appears 20 times on the last page of the Proven Green/Black, on this site.
'Carnage Tyrant' appears 23 times on the last page of the Established Mono Green, on this site.
A_E_I_Own_U "If you want to smash cardboard together, yea, i'd assume this is an infuriating card to play against, but it doesn't do when against so many of the typical strategies out there."
Oh Really?
Since when do cards that don't work cost $35?
Cards that don't work are in the 'Proven' section of this website?
Carnage Tyrant has MANY articles written specifically about him, and the mind warping effects he has.
I skimmed many articles about Carnage Tyrant. Go look on Google if you do not believe me.
"In the last month, I've thought about Carnage Tyrant more than any other Magic card. . . .I don't even like Carnage Tyrant." Andrew Jessup
Carnage Tyrant is a CRITICAL part of WHY Mono-U works.
He single handedly removes MANY problem cards from main decks.
***********
Fanattic ->"MonoR is not the worst matchup for us, we have every tool to beat them. Not sure which is the worst, but that one is not."
So, why can't I beat Mono-Red ?
Potdindt "I would say that the other mono colored decks are rough matchups while multicolored decks like sultai/control are probly much easier. The biggest threat to us are the monocolored 3 drops. Cainwhirler wiping our x/1s, steel leaf an unblockable 5/4 on turn 2, and benalish marshall pumping all those weenies...we cant do much against that"
How about a 2 cost counterspells called Essence Capture?
Maindeck it solves all of those problems.
Trickster taps it, (and blanks the pump effect from the Marshal), and then blocks and kills a creature.
Funny how Trickster and Essence Capture do nothing against a Death Lizard.
I am no longer playing many X/1 's purely because ChainWhirler was such a beating.
Runaway Steam-Kin & Experimental Frenzy are my current problems.
FANAttIC->"Just slap Metamorphic Alteration on random creature, copy the most unfair creature ever and go to their face, they can block or not. Or copy your Djinn and go to town."
Nope.
In Responce, I counterspell
In Responce, I kill your creature
In Responce, I kill your Djinn
Counter/Kill, don't work on Death Lizard, and is why he is format defining
Counter/Kill, destroys Metamorphic Alteration, and is why it is just dinky.
Fanattic ->"MonoR is not the worst matchup for us, we have every tool to beat them. Not sure which is the worst, but that one is not."
So, why can't I beat Mono-Red ?
When opponent casts Tyrant, how many counterspells should I expect from them?
The same for creature kill. So, they have mana to cast Carnage and removal but I have none for Alteration + protection?
And if they have removal for Djinn, that Djinn would be dead long before Alteration is even on the stack.
Our deck has setup to protect a creature with aura, otherwise CO wouldn't be played.
How can you even use Counter argument? Then no spell should be worth playing, except Tyrant, Niv, Banefire and few others.
Only you know your decklist. I have enough respect to play 4 Surge Mare in 75, red and green does not go through that. Including few Entrancing Melody for problematic creatures like Steam-Kin, CCC creatures, Adanto, Wildgrowth Walker...
Did you watch Nikachu's videos on Arena? On his way to Mythic he had to beat all red decks.
Look, I dont mean to be rude, it's just that the reasons I gave for the Carny being so Bollox is Counter/Kill.
And those two points, Counter/Kill, do work just fine if you try to deal with the Death lizard the turn after.
Or if they kill your only creature the turn before
Some of the decks I have played against had Carny as their only creature, with planeswalkers.
The counter argument is valid.
How about I counterspell ALL your creatures and then cast the Tyrant?
Counterspells are a good reason to play Flash creatures, since they are forced to deal with them when they don't want to, and then you cast more while they are tapped.
Sure, they are unlikely to have more than 6 mana to fund their own counterspells. But they might. My opponent has, at least once.
Part of my point is that even if you pull your combo off and block and trade . . . You just went 2 for 1, and that is your solution?
And I am not kidding about Carnage Tyrant.
It has a massive write up on the Proven Green/Black thread. All decks play multiples on the last page.
Mono U also gets mentioned.
OperationRemie "Carnage Tyrant won me another one."
"it just felt like "get to 6, drop a carnage tyrant, win the game."
JaishivaJai "So, 3 Carnage Tyrants is definitely right. "
Fungal Infection and Golden Demise are also Really Bad.
I have listed my currentish version of Mono-U, a page or so back.
Still don't like Surge Mare, but I am playing two base. No way am I playing 4.
I have watched a 3(?) of Nikachu's Vids.
It was interesting how his deck evolved as his opponents improved.
Some of the decks I have played against had Carny as their only creature, with planeswalkers.
The counter argument is valid.
How about I counterspell ALL your creatures and then cast the Tyrant?
I thought we were talking about relevant tier1 and tier2 decks.
What deck is going to counter ALL my creatures and then cast Tyrant? I would love to play against those decks, they sound like bye.
Well, I don't quite understand the fuss about Carnage Tyrant, but FWIT, my opponent can have as many copies of that card in their deck. No problem at all.
As for Metamorphic Alteration, I wouldn't touch that card at all. You need to have something worth copying, and it's inherently card-disadvantaged. Plus, it's an aura that costs 2 mana, which is a huge ask for this deck.
You keep mentioning Golgari decks and their prevalence in playing it. Although those decks aren't even tier decks anymore. There was 6 copies in the top 8 of the scg open. 2 maindeck.
Very interesting. The Top 8 were :
2x Mono Red
1x WW Sprint
1x Counter/Kill/Wipe + Teferi
2x G/B/(u)
2x Nexus Sillyness
(The 9th & 14th placed decks also had Carnage Tyrants. Is 5 from the top 14 enough?)
(Oh, and decks 10, 15 & 16 all played Niv-Miz, the other uncounterable big creature I have been putting in brackets)
More importantly, Larry Johnson used Mono-U and finished 12th
12th Place at Star City Games Classic on 2/3/2019 - Standard
ShineyMan, Have you played against Golgari?
Because that PROVEN deck regularly beats Mono-U by casting Carnage Tyrant.
Golgari kills ALL our useful creatures, and can cast a Death Lizard while we hold an Essence Capture.
FANAttIC, my argument is that pure Counters/Kill doesn't work BECAUSE of Death Lizard/Niv-M
Blue/Red will have games where they counter/kill ALL Mono-U creatures, and then cast Niv-Miz.
Green/Black will have games where they kill ALL Mono-U creatures, and then cast Death Lizards.
Try Playing Mono-U against PROVEN decks.
Like the Teferi deck from the above tournament.
Yuk. Just found another AWFUL card seeing play. Cry of the Carnarium is in the winning decklist
Carnage Tyrant & Niv-Miz is central to why Mono-U currently works.
The rest of the field is warped away from us because of them.
Same with some of the new Nexus decks, the rest of the field just can't afford to basedeck loads of point and kill, because there isn't anything to point at in 3/8 of that top 8.
In the VAST majority of that 16 deck field, the only real Value that can be gained from a point and kill spell, is when it is pointed at a Mono-U creature as it is about to wear an Obsession.
Everything else is 1 for 1, worse, much worse, or it doesn't work.
As evidence that Carnage Tyrant & Niv-Mizz and ETB creatures ARE warping the format, take a look at the THREE mono-red decklists in that 16.
All 3 have all their massed Lava Coils in their Sideboards.
One Izzet Drakes has them in the main, One has Lava Coils in the sideboard.
One Nexus of Gates deck has 2 & 2, the other has 2 in the main.
That is a HUGE number no longer in basedeck.
ZERO base deck Lava Coils in Red !
Tempest Djinn & Sphinx of Forseight LOVE that.
Yeah, I've played against Golgari plenty of times, and that matchup is mostly a cakewalk. Andrea Mengucci actually agrees, though that comes from his perspective as a Golgari player. His article is somewhere on CFB and in it he mentioned how tough it was to beat Mono Blue as a Golgari player.
I must have played > 20 matches against Golgari. The number of games I lost because of Carnage Tyrant? Exactly one.
You might wanna consider the possibility that you have been playing the matchup wrong. Seriously, the matchup is never about countering Carnage Tyrant. It's about wisely using Trickster to blank their turns or to keep Wildgrowth Walker from gaining them life; choosing which spells to interact with and which to ignore; pacing yourself so your threats line up well against their answers; and racing them in the air. I would gladly let all my Golgari opponents make the average cmc of their deck higher by playing more Carnage Tyrant.
Even if they manage to live long enough to get Carnage Tyrant down, you should still be winning the race most of the time anyway. If they can hold you back long enough for Carnage Tyrant to take the game, then kudos to them; at that point they deserve to win with their big spells.
I'll hearken this comment. Perhaps you've had different games then me but something went wrong long before the tyrant if he is the reason for your loss.
I did see that Infest card getting play a lot recently. It can be a pita for sure.
Andrea Mengucci plays
0 Kraul Harpooner
0 Dead Weight
0 Assasins Tropgy
0 Ravenous Chuppa
2 Cast Down does not make his deck scarey against us.
As he says "Two of my five losses came from Mono-Blue Tempo, a powerful deck that has an incredibly good matchup against Golgari."
Against Andrea's, absolutely.
But, Andrea is not playing Golgari.
Andrea is playing 4xHydroid Krasis base, and ZERO Carnage Tyrant.
Try looking in the Proven section of this website for real Golgari decks.
Those are the ones I do 50/50 with.
@Equalizer: Don't overextend into Gates Ablaze or Deafening Clarion. Leave mana up to counter Gatebreaker Ram. Win with flyers. That's pretty much it. The other cards in their deck are too slow and simply don't amount to much against us.
@magic geek: Exactly. Mengucci played no Carnage Tyrant and he had a hard time against Mono Blue regardless of whether it was Sultai or Golgari. Now, if you can read this one step further, it tells you two things. First, that card just doesn't matter much in this metagame and thus could be ditched. Second, the explore shell, which is the core of both Golgari and Sultai, is bad against Mono Blue, that is why Golgari and Sultai are generally a walk in the park for this deck.
If you have problems with multiple copies of Kraul Harpooner, Dead Weight, Assasin's Trophy, and Ravenous Chupacabra, then fine, I can understand that. Those cards can stall this deck out long enough for Carnage Tyrant to take over the game. But in that case, the problem is not Carnage Tyrant; it's the gameplan that allows Carnage Tyrant to work. And this is what all of us have been trying to say all this time: it's never about Carnage Tyrant, but rather about the lead-up that gets the game to the point where Carnage Tyrant can shine. Your job, as a pilot of this deck, is to never let them get to that point, not to get yourself into a spot where Carnage Tyrant can steal the game from you. And as described above, the nature of this deck is that it easily beats Sultai and Golgari. So if you often find yourself in a spot where you die to Carnage Tyrant, you should reconsider how you approach the matchup.
And if you take a look around, nobody plays the problematic cards mentioned above anymore, whether in Sultai or Golgari. That's why Carnage Tyrant no longer has the support it needs and thus has disappeared from the metagame. Your Death Lizard was never a problem for this deck; decks that had been pre-sideboarded against Mono Blue were. Case closed.
Andrea is not playing Golgari, therefore, you beat them.
SCG does not have new Gogari decks, therefore, my Golgari opponents do not exist.
Golgari decks play Creature Kill (and Discard).
I regularly have trouble with real Golgari decks, therefore, I must be playing it wrong.
Most Mono-U relies heavily on Curious Obsession.
Real Golgari decks have 4xDuress.
(Turn 1 on the play, they Duress, discarding my Curious Obsession - is a constant first turn)
Once a real Golgari deck has discarded the Curious Obsession, or killed the creature it was on, how do I play like you suggest?
Here is an ACTUAL Golgari deck from 2 days ago. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1638255#paper
It is nothing like that BS Hydroid Krasis deck you reckon is 'Golgari', and it went 5/0
There are LOTS of similar actual Golgari decks, just not on SCG
After sideboard it can have 4xDuress, 4xCast Down, 2x Cry of the Carnarium, 2 drill Bit, 3x Vraska's Contempt, 2x Vraska, 3x Vivien, 2xRavenous Chuppa.
Turn 4 Carnage Tyrant or Finality happens regularly.
ALL of that deck is just HIDEOUS, and you reckon it does not exist, or I must be playing it wrong.
There is a 4th Carnage Tyrant in the board, but really, the 3 base deck should leave because they need spots to ram in almost everything from the sideboard.
And you reckon Golgari is easy. Tee Hee.
This is a very real reason I want Sphinx of Foresight.
It is a real path after they have stopped Curious Obsession, which they almost always can.
One of the 3 new Mono-U decks I posted above is actually playing SPHINX !
lol why are you still stuck in the past? That kind of Golgari has already fallen out of favor. And even if some people still play that version. the problem would be its gameplan, not your Death Lizard.
And who cares if a deck spikes one league? Take a look at all the big tournaments going around: SCG events, MTGO mythic qualifiers, etc. Everybody and their mother have moved away from "creature-kill" Golgari, and that deck is now a problem of the past.
Alright, I've watched this argument devolve a bit and I'm not sure what's even being argued about anymore Let's move this back into a constructive space folks.
From what I gathered the initial proposition was: "Carnage Tyrant unfair".
I don't think the issue is that it's unfair, but that it's just really good against the type of deck we are. Plenty of other decks either aren't worried about it at all or are only slightly worried about it. For example:
decks with white can Settle it, nuke it, or use Slaughter the Strong
decks with black can make them discard it with Drill Bit, Thought Erasure, and the like
some control-type decks can just tap that tower land to remove its hexproof and just vraska's contempt it or cast it down
Red/Black aggro decks can kill before it becomes a problem (or use the cheeky combo of chainwhirler + status to kill everything)
big creature decks can block with multiple creatures to kill it
Drakes can kill overtop of it with tons of damage
gates can put out bigger creatures or just wipe it off the board
nexus-based decks will just fog and take turns so it can't do anything.
Our deck on the other hand, being mono-blue, means we don't have access to a lot of the tools other colors get to use against a carnage tyrant. But that doesn't make a carnage tyrant unfair, it just happens to take advantage of our weaknesses in the color pie. I actually think Carnage Tyrant is a great card that provides a well-needed tool for midrange and creature-based decks to fight back against control-type decks or decks with heavy kill spells.
That being said, it is definitely a tough matchup for us. And just because the average person doesn't use it as much doesn't stop it from being played at a local FNM or something, so it never hurts to prepare or discuss the matchup. We all have to prepare for different matchups so if one of us has to play a lot of Golgari decks the least we can do is figure out some counter-strategies
Right now the only things I can think of are team-blocking with some combination of Djinn, Sphinx, and adapted Pteramanders or using Sleep and trying to win on tempo. The other option would be to cut the Djinn's and splash into Dimir for thought erasure/discard (or if you really hate carnage tyrant throw in an unmoored ego). Or splash into white for Slaughter the Strong or Settle
The other issues this conversation highlighted were:
backup plans when they kill curious obsession creature or make you discard it
board in lots of kill spells
or my own addition, facing down a turn 2 steel leaf on the play
Our deck works, in part, because of Carnage Tyrant & Niv-Mizz
Carnage Tyrant is SO critical to the meta that specialist cards are being played just to fight it.
Here is a January 2019 Golgari deck on SCG playing Detection Tower, solely to fight Death Lizard. http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/125973
That Golgari deck is the deck I am typing about, not some 'Hydroid Krasis' sillyness.
Mono-U gets a much easier time BECAUSE Carnage Tyrant is way overpowered, and obvious.
Carnage Tyrant is dominating the top tables at BIG tournaments, like SCG top 8's, and forcing change.
The change it is forcing, is away from Mono-U.
Decks that counterspell and use Kill spells are much weaker when facing Carnage Tyrant.
Counterspells and Kill spells are the traditional way of stopping individual creatures.
Wipe traditionally has been ALL creatures, but that is not how Wipe works in the current environment.
Ritual of Soot, Caranium, and Golden Demise destroy Mono-U, but can be dead spells against Carny, Niv & planeswalkers.
Deal X damage to all creatures has traditionally worked quite well, but doesn't work against 6 defense.
Carnage Tyrant & Niv-Mizz are the two most important cards in Standard. They define Standard.
Those two cards are why proper Golgari is not making the top tables at Big Tournaments.
The existence of Carnage Tyrant & Niv Mizz are godsends for Mono-U.
.
As to most of the rest of your concerns, AlilNinja, Settle & Slaughter the Strong are not base deck cards.
How the rest of the Meta actually deals with Niv & Death Liz is their problem, and good luck to them.
Turn 2 Steel Leaf is solved by taking 5, a turn 3 bounce mage, and a turn 4 Djinn blocker.
Or just a turn 4 Djinn block, and taking 10.
Sphinx helps in facing kill Spells, and finding a second Curious, and in blocking a turn 2 S.L.C.
Team Blocking a Death Lizard is a true desperation move. Don't.
Don't add a 2nd colour to MONO-U, it's just a bad idea.
2/1 vs Izzet Drakes
First game was appalling.
7 cards no land
6 cards no land
5 cards no land, keep. Scry 1 see Island. Display Sphinx, flush cards 2 + 3.
First turn I am going first, do nothing.
Turn 2, play an Island and a Siren. Gets Shocked
Turn 3, play an Island + Siren + Pter. Shock, then Shock.
I had a curious in hand, but it was a little difficult from there.
Game 2 I won because he forgot about his beacon bolt in the bin.
Game 3 as well.
2/1 vs WW (with U splash)
Good player, played well, but I just squeeked past him.
2/0 vs Nexus Gates 1/0 in socials
Easy wins against an Excellent Player.
Counter the 3 cost Blue Guild enchantment, and the deck just dies.
.
We played a 3rd social game, and that was way fun.
I put Jace out on turn 3 because I had no counters. He kept wiping the board with the red guild wipe, but it ended up just not mattering. I just kept upping Jace, Dividing, and upping against. 8 Jaces were on the board when half of them started making dudes.
Playing with 4x Negates + more counters in the board, Nexus gates seems like the easiest match up ever.
Syncopate was just bad though.
. Sphinx of Foresight is good.
Really GOOD. Try it.
.
It does happen that Sphinx sits in my hand and never gets cast, as the Obsession wins the game.
Drawing the Sphinx can be irritating if you never get a 4th land.
.
BUT Sphinx is godlike at setting up a perfect roll out with Curious Obsession.
And, casting a 4/4 flyer on turn 4 is just fine. (Scry 1 is just a bonus.)
Sphinx adds a whole lot of consistency, and thump.
Q - Is this deck an advisable choice for the PT in 2 weeks? why or why not?
A- Yes.
1) Because it is cheap, and easily built.
2) Because it is a fun, skill based deck.
3) Because it is a minority deck (few players)
4) Because it is enjoyable to play a full day with.
5) Because it does not get colour screwed
6) Because it is consistent
7) Because it can beat anyone / anything
8) Because it has creative sideboard options
9) Because (Carnage Tyrant / Niv-Mizz / Pure Plainswalker / Nexus Creatureless) is a serious part of the format now, forcing out Kill Spells.
10) It does well against Hydroid Krasis sillyness
11) Because it always puts in a reasonable result in almost all tournaments
Reasons not to Play Mono-U
1) Decks that play (Lava Coil / Beacon Bolt / Goblin Chainwhirler) basedeck
2) Old style Golgari
.
I would say that the other mono colored decks are rough matchups while multicolored decks like sultai/control are probly much easier. The biggest threat to us are the monocolored 3 drops. Cainwhirler wiping our x/1s, steel leaf an unblockable 5/4 on turn 2, and benalish marshall pumping all those weenies...we cant do much against that
in our store we dont beat them
Nope.
In Responce, I counterspell
In Responce, I kill your creature
In Responce, I kill your Djinn
Fanattic, every part of your justification doesn't work.
Counter/Kill, don't work on Death Lizard, and is why he is format defining
Counter/Kill, destroys Metamorphic Alteration, and is why it is just dinky.
Potdindt "If Tyrant was soooo OP why doesnt it see 4x in every green deck? "
Reason 1 :
Carnage Tyrant costs $35
Our entire deck costs $50
Potdindt "If Tyrant was soooo OP why doesnt it see 4x in every green deck? 6 CMC."
Reason 2 :
Jace, The Mind Sculpter is the definition of Busted Plainswalker.
And yet many decks that could play 4, DON'T. I could play 4 in Vintage, but I only play 1.
4x Copies of Death Lizard is not required to demonstrate he is obviously utterly unfair.
Potdindt "This deck should be able to kill by turn 7 consistently which means on the play, tyrant doesnt even get to attack. On the draw, it attacks once and then they die."
Oh Really?
Try playing the match-up, because reality is elsewhere. Sure seemed that way when I played it.
Black/Green staples : Dead Weight, Assasin's Trophy, Ravenous Chuppa, Vivien, Cast Down, Kraul Harpooner, Vraska's Contempt
Mono-U has a hard time dealing with that.
No way are you winning consistently on turn 7. Sure, If you get the dream draw on the play, you with suit up a 1 drop and skate thru with an Obsession, and draw protection spells. And if you don't you will die to the Death Lizard, a lot.
Those cards are all listed in most decks from the PROVEN G/B section of this site.
A_E_I_Own_U "I dont understand your issue with the card. It HARDLY sees main deck play."
Reality disagrees with you.
'Carnage Tyrant' appears 20 times on the last page of the Proven Green/Black, on this site.
'Carnage Tyrant' appears 23 times on the last page of the Established Mono Green, on this site.
A_E_I_Own_U "If you want to smash cardboard together, yea, i'd assume this is an infuriating card to play against, but it doesn't do when against so many of the typical strategies out there."
Oh Really?
Since when do cards that don't work cost $35?
Cards that don't work are in the 'Proven' section of this website?
Carnage Tyrant has MANY articles written specifically about him, and the mind warping effects he has.
I skimmed many articles about Carnage Tyrant. Go look on Google if you do not believe me.
"In the last month, I've thought about Carnage Tyrant more than any other Magic card. . . .I don't even like Carnage Tyrant." Andrew Jessup
Carnage Tyrant is a CRITICAL part of WHY Mono-U works.
He single handedly removes MANY problem cards from main decks.
***********
Fanattic ->"MonoR is not the worst matchup for us, we have every tool to beat them. Not sure which is the worst, but that one is not."
So, why can't I beat Mono-Red ?
Potdindt "I would say that the other mono colored decks are rough matchups while multicolored decks like sultai/control are probly much easier. The biggest threat to us are the monocolored 3 drops. Cainwhirler wiping our x/1s, steel leaf an unblockable 5/4 on turn 2, and benalish marshall pumping all those weenies...we cant do much against that"
How about a 2 cost counterspells called Essence Capture?
Maindeck it solves all of those problems.
Trickster taps it, (and blanks the pump effect from the Marshal), and then blocks and kills a creature.
Funny how Trickster and Essence Capture do nothing against a Death Lizard.
I am no longer playing many X/1 's purely because ChainWhirler was such a beating.
Runaway Steam-Kin & Experimental Frenzy are my current problems.
When opponent casts Tyrant, how many counterspells should I expect from them?
The same for creature kill. So, they have mana to cast Carnage and removal but I have none for Alteration + protection?
And if they have removal for Djinn, that Djinn would be dead long before Alteration is even on the stack.
Our deck has setup to protect a creature with aura, otherwise CO wouldn't be played.
How can you even use Counter argument? Then no spell should be worth playing, except Tyrant, Niv, Banefire and few others.
Only you know your decklist. I have enough respect to play 4 Surge Mare in 75, red and green does not go through that. Including few Entrancing Melody for problematic creatures like Steam-Kin, CCC creatures, Adanto, Wildgrowth Walker...
Did you watch Nikachu's videos on Arena? On his way to Mythic he had to beat all red decks.
And those two points, Counter/Kill, do work just fine if you try to deal with the Death lizard the turn after.
Or if they kill your only creature the turn before
Some of the decks I have played against had Carny as their only creature, with planeswalkers.
The counter argument is valid.
How about I counterspell ALL your creatures and then cast the Tyrant?
Counterspells are a good reason to play Flash creatures, since they are forced to deal with them when they don't want to, and then you cast more while they are tapped.
Sure, they are unlikely to have more than 6 mana to fund their own counterspells. But they might. My opponent has, at least once.
Part of my point is that even if you pull your combo off and block and trade . . . You just went 2 for 1, and that is your solution?
And I am not kidding about Carnage Tyrant.
It has a massive write up on the Proven Green/Black thread. All decks play multiples on the last page.
Mono U also gets mentioned.
OperationRemie "Carnage Tyrant won me another one."
"it just felt like "get to 6, drop a carnage tyrant, win the game."
JaishivaJai "So, 3 Carnage Tyrants is definitely right. "
Fungal Infection and Golden Demise are also Really Bad.
I have listed my currentish version of Mono-U, a page or so back.
Still don't like Surge Mare, but I am playing two base. No way am I playing 4.
I have watched a 3(?) of Nikachu's Vids.
It was interesting how his deck evolved as his opponents improved.
What deck is going to counter ALL my creatures and then cast Tyrant? I would love to play against those decks, they sound like bye.
As for Metamorphic Alteration, I wouldn't touch that card at all. You need to have something worth copying, and it's inherently card-disadvantaged. Plus, it's an aura that costs 2 mana, which is a huge ask for this deck.
A_E_I_Own_U, 6 copies of a card in the Top 8 of an SCG Open is YOUR evidence Carnage Tyrant DOESN'T see play !
Three of Eight decks ARE playing Death Lizards, so, . . . Huh?
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/Star_City_Games_Classic/2019-02-03_Standard_Baltimore
Very interesting. The Top 8 were :
2x Mono Red
1x WW Sprint
1x Counter/Kill/Wipe + Teferi
2x G/B/(u)
2x Nexus Sillyness
(The 9th & 14th placed decks also had Carnage Tyrants. Is 5 from the top 14 enough?)
(Oh, and decks 10, 15 & 16 all played Niv-Miz, the other uncounterable big creature I have been putting in brackets)
More importantly, Larry Johnson used Mono-U and finished 12th
12th Place at Star City Games Classic on 2/3/2019 - Standard
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Merfolk Trickster
4 Tempest Djinn
20 Island
4 Curious Obsession
4 Opt
3 Dive Down
2 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
1 Chart a Course
1 Blink of an Eye
1 Quench
2 Entrancing Melody
3 Negate
2 Diamond Mare
2 Surge Mare
2 Deep Freeze
1 Dive Down
1 Quench
1 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, Cunning Castaway
1 Sleep
1 Transmogrifying Wand
ShineyMan, Have you played against Golgari?
Because that PROVEN deck regularly beats Mono-U by casting Carnage Tyrant.
Golgari kills ALL our useful creatures, and can cast a Death Lizard while we hold an Essence Capture.
FANAttIC, my argument is that pure Counters/Kill doesn't work BECAUSE of Death Lizard/Niv-M
Blue/Red will have games where they counter/kill ALL Mono-U creatures, and then cast Niv-Miz.
Green/Black will have games where they kill ALL Mono-U creatures, and then cast Death Lizards.
Try Playing Mono-U against PROVEN decks.
Like the Teferi deck from the above tournament.
Yuk. Just found another AWFUL card seeing play.
Cry of the Carnarium is in the winning decklist
Carnage Tyrant & Niv-Miz is central to why Mono-U currently works.
The rest of the field is warped away from us because of them.
Same with some of the new Nexus decks, the rest of the field just can't afford to basedeck loads of point and kill, because there isn't anything to point at in 3/8 of that top 8.
In the VAST majority of that 16 deck field, the only real Value that can be gained from a point and kill spell, is when it is pointed at a Mono-U creature as it is about to wear an Obsession.
Everything else is 1 for 1, worse, much worse, or it doesn't work.
As evidence that Carnage Tyrant & Niv-Mizz and ETB creatures ARE warping the format, take a look at the THREE mono-red decklists in that 16.
All 3 have all their massed Lava Coils in their Sideboards.
One Izzet Drakes has them in the main, One has Lava Coils in the sideboard.
One Nexus of Gates deck has 2 & 2, the other has 2 in the main.
That is a HUGE number no longer in basedeck.
ZERO base deck Lava Coils in Red !
Tempest Djinn & Sphinx of Forseight LOVE that.
I must have played > 20 matches against Golgari. The number of games I lost because of Carnage Tyrant? Exactly one.
You might wanna consider the possibility that you have been playing the matchup wrong. Seriously, the matchup is never about countering Carnage Tyrant. It's about wisely using Trickster to blank their turns or to keep Wildgrowth Walker from gaining them life; choosing which spells to interact with and which to ignore; pacing yourself so your threats line up well against their answers; and racing them in the air. I would gladly let all my Golgari opponents make the average cmc of their deck higher by playing more Carnage Tyrant.
Even if they manage to live long enough to get Carnage Tyrant down, you should still be winning the race most of the time anyway. If they can hold you back long enough for Carnage Tyrant to take the game, then kudos to them; at that point they deserve to win with their big spells.
I did see that Infest card getting play a lot recently. It can be a pita for sure.
4x Tempest Djinn
4x Siren Stormtamer
4x Pteramander
4x Merfolk Trickster
Enchantments: (4)
4x Curious Obsession
Instant/Sorcery (21)
2x Essence Capture
3x Spell Pierce
3x Dive Down
2x Chart a Course
4x Opt
3x Wizard's Retort
2x Entrancing Melody
1x Blink of an Eye
20x Island
3x Negate
2x Diamond Mare
2x Surge Mare
2x Deep Freeze
1x Dive Down
1x Quench
1x Spell Pierce
1x Jace, Cunning Castaway
1x Sleep
1x Transmogrifying Wand
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/updating-golgari-midrange-with-hydroid-krasis/
Yeah, Mono-U should smash that.
Andrea Mengucci plays
0 Kraul Harpooner
0 Dead Weight
0 Assasins Tropgy
0 Ravenous Chuppa
2 Cast Down does not make his deck scarey against us.
As he says "Two of my five losses came from Mono-Blue Tempo, a powerful deck that has an incredibly good matchup against Golgari."
Against Andrea's, absolutely.
But, Andrea is not playing Golgari.
Andrea is playing 4xHydroid Krasis base, and ZERO Carnage Tyrant.
Try looking in the Proven section of this website for real Golgari decks.
Those are the ones I do 50/50 with.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/proven-standard/799204-gb-x-midrange?page=4
Didn't find any !!!!
But I did find these 3
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/126751
13th Place at Star City Games Team Open on 2/2/2019
4 Mist-Cloaked Herald
4 Siren Stormtamer
2 Sphinx of Foresight
4 Tempest Djinn
3 Warkite Marauder
19 Island
3 Dive Down
2 Lookout's Dispersal
4 Opt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
1 Chart a Course
2 Diamond Mare
2 Surge Mare
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dive Down
1 Essence Capture
2 Negate
1 Spell Pierce
2 Entrancing Melody
2 Sleep
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/126894
7th Place at Mythic Championship Qualifier on 2/2/2019
4 Pteramander
4 Siren Stormtamer
2 Surge Mare
4 Tempest Djinn
20 Island
4 Dive Down
3 Essence Capture
4 Opt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
2 Treasure Map
3 Exclusion Mage
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Essence Capture
2 Negate
1 Spell Pierce
2 Entrancing Melody
2 Sleep
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/126861
2nd Place at Star City Games Invitational Qualifier on 2/2/2019
4 Merfolk Trickster
1 Mist-Cloaked Herald
4 Pteramander
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Tempest Djinn
1 Warkite Marauder
19 Island
4 Dive Down
2 Essence Capture
4 Opt
1 Quench
2 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
1 Chart a Course
3 Diamond Mare
2 Exclusion Mage
2 Surge Mare
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Essence Capture
2 Negate
2 Entrancing Melody
1 Sleep
Thanks
@magic geek: Exactly. Mengucci played no Carnage Tyrant and he had a hard time against Mono Blue regardless of whether it was Sultai or Golgari. Now, if you can read this one step further, it tells you two things. First, that card just doesn't matter much in this metagame and thus could be ditched. Second, the explore shell, which is the core of both Golgari and Sultai, is bad against Mono Blue, that is why Golgari and Sultai are generally a walk in the park for this deck.
If you have problems with multiple copies of Kraul Harpooner, Dead Weight, Assasin's Trophy, and Ravenous Chupacabra, then fine, I can understand that. Those cards can stall this deck out long enough for Carnage Tyrant to take over the game. But in that case, the problem is not Carnage Tyrant; it's the gameplan that allows Carnage Tyrant to work. And this is what all of us have been trying to say all this time: it's never about Carnage Tyrant, but rather about the lead-up that gets the game to the point where Carnage Tyrant can shine. Your job, as a pilot of this deck, is to never let them get to that point, not to get yourself into a spot where Carnage Tyrant can steal the game from you. And as described above, the nature of this deck is that it easily beats Sultai and Golgari. So if you often find yourself in a spot where you die to Carnage Tyrant, you should reconsider how you approach the matchup.
And if you take a look around, nobody plays the problematic cards mentioned above anymore, whether in Sultai or Golgari. That's why Carnage Tyrant no longer has the support it needs and thus has disappeared from the metagame. Your Death Lizard was never a problem for this deck; decks that had been pre-sideboarded against Mono Blue were. Case closed.
Andrea is not playing Golgari, therefore, you beat them.
SCG does not have new Gogari decks, therefore, my Golgari opponents do not exist.
Golgari decks play Creature Kill (and Discard).
I regularly have trouble with real Golgari decks, therefore, I must be playing it wrong.
Most Mono-U relies heavily on Curious Obsession.
Real Golgari decks have 4xDuress.
(Turn 1 on the play, they Duress, discarding my Curious Obsession - is a constant first turn)
Once a real Golgari deck has discarded the Curious Obsession, or killed the creature it was on, how do I play like you suggest?
Here is an ACTUAL Golgari deck from 2 days ago.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1638255#paper
It is nothing like that BS Hydroid Krasis deck you reckon is 'Golgari', and it went 5/0
There are LOTS of similar actual Golgari decks, just not on SCG
After sideboard it can have 4xDuress, 4xCast Down, 2x Cry of the Carnarium, 2 drill Bit, 3x Vraska's Contempt, 2x Vraska, 3x Vivien, 2xRavenous Chuppa.
Turn 4 Carnage Tyrant or Finality happens regularly.
ALL of that deck is just HIDEOUS, and you reckon it does not exist, or I must be playing it wrong.
There is a 4th Carnage Tyrant in the board, but really, the 3 base deck should leave because they need spots to ram in almost everything from the sideboard.
And you reckon Golgari is easy. Tee Hee.
This is a very real reason I want Sphinx of Foresight.
It is a real path after they have stopped Curious Obsession, which they almost always can.
One of the 3 new Mono-U decks I posted above is actually playing SPHINX !
And who cares if a deck spikes one league? Take a look at all the big tournaments going around: SCG events, MTGO mythic qualifiers, etc. Everybody and their mother have moved away from "creature-kill" Golgari, and that deck is now a problem of the past.
From what I gathered the initial proposition was: "Carnage Tyrant unfair".
I don't think the issue is that it's unfair, but that it's just really good against the type of deck we are. Plenty of other decks either aren't worried about it at all or are only slightly worried about it. For example:
That being said, it is definitely a tough matchup for us. And just because the average person doesn't use it as much doesn't stop it from being played at a local FNM or something, so it never hurts to prepare or discuss the matchup. We all have to prepare for different matchups so if one of us has to play a lot of Golgari decks the least we can do is figure out some counter-strategies
Right now the only things I can think of are team-blocking with some combination of Djinn, Sphinx, and adapted Pteramanders or using Sleep and trying to win on tempo. The other option would be to cut the Djinn's and splash into Dimir for thought erasure/discard (or if you really hate carnage tyrant throw in an unmoored ego). Or splash into white for Slaughter the Strong or Settle
The other issues this conversation highlighted were:
Thoughts?
Our deck works, in part, because of Carnage Tyrant & Niv-Mizz
Carnage Tyrant is SO critical to the meta that specialist cards are being played just to fight it.
Here is a January 2019 Golgari deck on SCG playing Detection Tower, solely to fight Death Lizard.
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/125973
That Golgari deck is the deck I am typing about, not some 'Hydroid Krasis' sillyness.
(February decklist with 'Hydroid Krasis' sillyness playing kill spells & D.Lizard)
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/126871
Mono-U gets a much easier time BECAUSE Carnage Tyrant is way overpowered, and obvious.
Carnage Tyrant is dominating the top tables at BIG tournaments, like SCG top 8's, and forcing change.
The change it is forcing, is away from Mono-U.
Decks that counterspell and use Kill spells are much weaker when facing Carnage Tyrant.
Counterspells and Kill spells are the traditional way of stopping individual creatures.
Wipe traditionally has been ALL creatures, but that is not how Wipe works in the current environment.
Ritual of Soot, Caranium, and Golden Demise destroy Mono-U, but can be dead spells against Carny, Niv & planeswalkers.
Deal X damage to all creatures has traditionally worked quite well, but doesn't work against 6 defense.
Carnage Tyrant & Niv-Mizz are the two most important cards in Standard. They define Standard.
Those two cards are why proper Golgari is not making the top tables at Big Tournaments.
The existence of Carnage Tyrant & Niv Mizz are godsends for Mono-U.
.
As to most of the rest of your concerns, AlilNinja, Settle & Slaughter the Strong are not base deck cards.
How the rest of the Meta actually deals with Niv & Death Liz is their problem, and good luck to them.
Turn 2 Steel Leaf is solved by taking 5, a turn 3 bounce mage, and a turn 4 Djinn blocker.
Or just a turn 4 Djinn block, and taking 10.
Sphinx helps in facing kill Spells, and finding a second Curious, and in blocking a turn 2 S.L.C.
Team Blocking a Death Lizard is a true desperation move. Don't.
Don't add a 2nd colour to MONO-U, it's just a bad idea.
another mono-U
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/126579
and another
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/126530
3x Pteramander
2x Warkite Marauder
4x Merfolk Trickster
4x Tempest Djinn
3x Sphinx of Foresight
2x Spell Pierce
4x Dive Down
4x Opt
2x Essence Capture
4x Wizard's Retort
4x Negate
2x Surge Mare
2x Syncopate
2x Exclusion Mage
2x Essence Capture
1x Warkite Marauder
1x Spell Pierce
1x Jace, Cunning Castaway
I went 3/0, but I shouldn't have.
2/1 vs Izzet Drakes
First game was appalling.
7 cards no land
6 cards no land
5 cards no land, keep. Scry 1 see Island. Display Sphinx, flush cards 2 + 3.
First turn I am going first, do nothing.
Turn 2, play an Island and a Siren. Gets Shocked
Turn 3, play an Island + Siren + Pter. Shock, then Shock.
I had a curious in hand, but it was a little difficult from there.
Game 2 I won because he forgot about his beacon bolt in the bin.
Game 3 as well.
2/1 vs WW (with U splash)
Good player, played well, but I just squeeked past him.
2/0 vs Nexus Gates 1/0 in socials
Easy wins against an Excellent Player.
Counter the 3 cost Blue Guild enchantment, and the deck just dies.
.
We played a 3rd social game, and that was way fun.
I put Jace out on turn 3 because I had no counters. He kept wiping the board with the red guild wipe, but it ended up just not mattering. I just kept upping Jace, Dividing, and upping against. 8 Jaces were on the board when half of them started making dudes.
Playing with 4x Negates + more counters in the board, Nexus gates seems like the easiest match up ever.
Syncopate was just bad though.
.
Sphinx of Foresight is good.
Really GOOD. Try it.
.
It does happen that Sphinx sits in my hand and never gets cast, as the Obsession wins the game.
Drawing the Sphinx can be irritating if you never get a 4th land.
.
BUT Sphinx is godlike at setting up a perfect roll out with Curious Obsession.
And, casting a 4/4 flyer on turn 4 is just fine. (Scry 1 is just a bonus.)
Sphinx adds a whole lot of consistency, and thump.
Mono-Blue Aggro
Alexander Hayne
1st Place Arena Traditional Ladder
4 Merfolk Trickster
3 Mist-Cloaked Herald
4 Pteramander
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Tempest Djinn
Lands (19)
19 Island
Spells (22)
4 Curious Obsession
1 Blink of an Eye
2 Dive Down
1 Essence Capture
4 Opt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Wizard's Retort
3 Chart a Course
2 Exclusion Mage
2 Faerie Duelist
3 Surge Mare
2 Deep Freeze
3 Negate
1 Search for Azcanta
2 Entrancing Melody
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Is this deck an advisable choice for the PT in 2 weeks? why or why not?
A- Yes.
1) Because it is cheap, and easily built.
2) Because it is a fun, skill based deck.
3) Because it is a minority deck (few players)
4) Because it is enjoyable to play a full day with.
5) Because it does not get colour screwed
6) Because it is consistent
7) Because it can beat anyone / anything
8) Because it has creative sideboard options
9) Because (Carnage Tyrant / Niv-Mizz / Pure Plainswalker / Nexus Creatureless) is a serious part of the format now, forcing out Kill Spells.
10) It does well against Hydroid Krasis sillyness
11) Because it always puts in a reasonable result in almost all tournaments
Reasons not to Play Mono-U
1) Decks that play (Lava Coil / Beacon Bolt / Goblin Chainwhirler) basedeck
2) Old style Golgari
.
1x Negate
1x Quench
1x Syncopate
1x Dive Down
1x Surge Mare
1x Spell Pierce
1x Deep Freeze
1x Treasure Map
1x Faerie Duelist
1x Exclusion Mage
1x Blink of an Eye
1x Selective Snare
1x Crafty Cutpurse
1x Essence Capture
1x scrabbling claws
1x Warkite Marauder
1x Entrancing Melody
1x Search for Azcanta
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
1x sphinx of foresight
1x Lookout's Dispersal
1x Mesmerizing Benthid
1x Transmogrifying Wand
1x Jace, Cunning Castaway