Hopefully this is relevant enough for y'all here, it definitely is for anyone playing MTG Arena ladder. Just a refresher, I've been using the single game per match ladder on arena. Something I didn't note previously is that for these single game matches, the computer generates 2 hands, then automatically gives you the hand with the "better" land to spell ratio. (You don't see the other hand generated.)
Now, I've noticed that I lose to control much more often than any other archetype during these single matches. Seemingly even while drafting and playing single game matches. I now believe that this 2 hand generator that give you the "better" land to spell ratio actually favors control decks. You see, aggro and midrange decks have the advantage of being able to keep hands with fewer lands in them. Control decks in standard generally need to play a higher land count in the deck and will have to mulligan more hands with only 1-2 lands. This two hand generator seems to lean more towards giving you opening hands of 2-4 lands per hand (especially 3.) Control decks can be happy with 3-4 lands in hand, while aggro/midrange suffer when they have too few early spells and too many lands. Given this, do you think control would naturally gain some advantage in these single game matches? Is it that control can build a better deck given there is no sideboarding allowed? Are the U/B decks just better than most of what's out there? Anyone else playing arena out there who has noticed this?
I just switched back to playing my much less refined U/B surveil control on Arena and have been kicking ass. I mean it's night and day vs. my more refined G/B Midrange deck. I'm at about an 80% win percentage over the last 20 games playing U/B, VS. maybe a 30% win percentage for the past 20 games with my G/B midrange. The reason this is an especially stark contrast is that I have the least experience/skill playing control by far.
I've been noticing all of the same archetype popping up as enemies too. Once nigh unbeatable archetypes become seemingly easy to handle.
As to Voodoo's comment on U/B not having enough threat density: I can win with a single Ravenous Chupacabra on the battlefield. Disinformation Campaign destroys any hand late game. Despite me only having 2 Doom Whisperer and 2 Dream Eater (kind of the 2 Blood Operative) as finishers, the deck just wins. My deck used to run 4 thoughtbound phantasm which can turn into finishers, but the deck didn't need them. I want to make the deck more threat dense, but don't have the wildcards to do so. Anyway, it's like this deck doesn't need a wincon besides keep 2-for-1ing the opponent into no hand. Then win with whatever creature is laying around. I had noticed this trend when playing against U/B control as G/B midrange. Seems like if they can use a disinformation campaign twice on you the game is pretty much over.
You should go wreck shop at every PPTQ, RPTQ, PTQ, 5K, GP and beyond with your deck since you think it's this sort of level 0 archetype with an unbeatable gameplan lol. Delusions of grandeur...
Also, not once did I say UB lacked threat density. I said it lacked the options to keep up when it is on the backfoot. With UW, Teferi can just draw you two cards a turn for 5 mana once. For your little Campaign interactions you need to be spending at least 3 times as much mana to keep your defenses up for the time it takes to whittle away your opponent's resources, and still yet you have to answer planeswalkers with something else entirely. The card isn't as backbreaking as you think it is, and it's honestly not conducive to your own growth as a player to let a lack of scientific data decide what a good strategy is
You should go wreck shop at every PPTQ, RPTQ, PTQ, 5K, GP and beyond with your deck since you think it's this sort of level 0 archetype with an unbeatable gameplan lol. Delusions of grandeur...
Also, not once did I say UB lacked threat density. I said it lacked the options to keep up when it is on the backfoot. With UW, Teferi can just draw you two cards a turn for 5 mana once. For your little Campaign interactions you need to be spending at least 3 times as much mana to keep your defenses up for the time it takes to whittle away your opponent's resources, and still yet you have to answer planeswalkers with something else entirely. The card isn't as backbreaking as you think it is, and it's honestly not conducive to your own growth as a player to let a lack of scientific data decide what a good strategy is
You're right, I didn't correctly remember your statement "threat density" I meant to address this comment:
UB control simply doesn't have the tools to keep churning out answers and dealing with the opponent. The Level one of this standard meta is GBx Mid and UWx Teferi Control.
I'm just saying, my janky rogue U/B control deck doesn't seem to have much of a problem with this. It's still in it's infancy, but it feels much better equipped to handle control/midrange decks. I'm sure you know much more about the standard meta than me, it's why I'm here on the thread. If GBx Midrange and UWx Teferi Control are the top of the meta, my U/B control deck has been doing very well against them. Of course all this doesn't apply directly to competitive play where sideboards become involved, and lists are perfectly refined. However, I was trying to use the tools at hand to determine if G/B midrange or U/B control would be a better choice for Arena. I'm working my way up to a sideboard and competitive play without spending any $.
You are oversimplifying the benefit of playing Teferi I believe. My deck has the ability to "go under" control wise vs.the u/w deck sometimes. There are actually many answers to Teferi in my deck, counterspells, Thought Erasure, Dream Eater, Discovery/Dispersal and even Disinformation Campaign. Your point about the power level is taken though, perhaps my deck would get better with a splash of White to play my own Teferi and have the best of both worlds.
Where do I have delusions of grandeur? I've been saying that I'm playing budget ladder games on Arena. How does that imply delusions of grandeur? Where did I say my deck was the best?
If you read my comment, it was mostly about questioning if the single game match/take the best land to spell ratio out of 2 hands gave control an edge over aggro and midrange. I asked the question if U/B control is just better than this archetype/what's out there. I didn't state that it was, in fact I was giving reasons as to why playing on the ladder in arena gave the deck a false edge that it wouldn't have in real life.
There is nobody who has scientific information about Standard Meta Magic. If you think you do, your "delusions of grandeur" may have been getting to your brain lol. No player has a big enough sample size, nor a control group, nor is organized enough to gather scientific data, so calm down. It's part of what makes Magic fun, there is no definitive "best deck" or "best way" to play the game. However we can make guesses based on past experiences and reasoning. Even pouring over tournament results can't give you definitive scientific data.
Anyway, does anyone have any speculation on the single game match system improving control's win percentage?
You are probably right about Teferi being better able to beat U/B control. However, in my rigorous, thorough gathering of scientific data (playing some Magic games) I have been beating even the dreaded Teferi. Of course I need to get more grants and colleagues to start replicating my pilot studies to truly verify my results. However, you can expect my study to appear in the next "Scientific Magic Players' Journal"
I too have been interested in the MTG Arena Beta Version. I actually sold off some of my Commander collection to buy into Arena since I can play it at any time and don't have to drag my wife around to LGS's anymore.
As an avid player of Control in Arena, and having translated my $200+ cash from the selling of my collection into Beta, I've got a pretty decent selection of cards to build around on Arena. As I've been playing, I've noticed a similar trend. I would say that perhaps 60%+ of my games I start with at least 3 lands, which is perfect for the Control list I've been piloting. However, I've also been royally mana screwed in some games. As in I start with 2 lands and never draw another one. It's my least favorite aspect about Arena currently (possibly because I've just had 5, YES, 5 games of back to back mana screw despite running 25 lands). So, I think that I'm emotionally biased at the time of writing this but I would agree that Arena tends to favor Mid-Range or Control decks in its algorithms. Again, this is mostly an observation and has no conclusive data to support this observation, since data seems to be important to people now...
I was playing against a Grixis Surveil deck that used Nicol Bolas and Disinformation Campaign to great effect. It shredded my hand via the Campaigns, Thought Erasure, Burglar Rat and Nicol Bolas, the Ravager to leave me drained of card advantage. Combined with the Surveil ability on Sinister Sabotage, Discovery // Dispersal and Dream Eater, it was able to successfully recycle the Campaigns to erode my hand over time. I think that the deck has some legs as a Grixis shell, since splashing for the decent Burn spells that are currently available is a nice way to keep control of Aggro decks while also helping you close the door on Control decks.
Might as well post what I've been testing. I'm a sucker for toolbox decks and this one seems just primed for such things. So far I've had very good results with this and absolutely think the blue is worth the splash; certainly for sideboard options if nothing else. With the abundance of control decks floating around the competitive scene, having access to things like Thief of Sanity and Unmoored Ego as a searchable effect via Mausoleum Secrets seems very good. The sideboard is reasonably tuned, but there is certainly room for suggestion.
As much as the deck can have a well-rounded approach to each matchup by diversifying stock in its creature selection, Mausoleum Secrets is no Traverse the Ulvenwald. If it could grab Carnage Tyrant, Kraul Harpooner, Thrashing Brontodon, Wildgrowth Walker, and Deathgorge Scavenger, then it could actually be a toolbox card. As it stands, the deck also needs additional ways to mill itself at a healthy enough clip to support the use of Mausolem Secrets on time. I just don't see it lining up well in a format that leaves no room for a turn to be wasted.
Just curious, what cards should one sideboard against GB midrange if playing UW that is not a boardwipe? So far the only effective card I can think of is Knight of Grace.
Just curious, what cards should one sideboard against GB midrange if playing UW that is not a boardwipe? So far the only effective card I can think of is Knight of Grace.
Cast Downs were a hedge against Tocatli Honor Guard. I wasn't too high on my 75 but only because I wish I had some extra insurance for the mirror (1 more Findbroker and 1 more Eldest Reborn) without sacrificing too much against the more aggressive archetypes
Round 1: GB Mid
Pretty stock. He did GB things, I drew very little action and lost game 1 to multiple walkers
SB Plan:
OUT:
2 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Cast Down
2 Assassin's Trophy
IN:
1 The Eldest Reborn
2 Ritual of Soot
1 Deathgorge Scavenger
1 Find // Finality
1 Vraska's Contempt
Wanted to just pinch him off of having extra creatures aside from Carnage Tyrant, and then edict it. I went over the top of my opponent in game 2 with walkers and he scooped before I could ultimate a Vraska
In game three I got to steal the opponent's Carny T with an Eldest Reborn, and from there I was able to chew up a few of his value spells with Angrath as he wasn't able to curve out properly.
Round 1: 2-1 Me
Rounds 2 and 3 were both against GB mid as well. In game one of round two, I was able to goad my opponent into swinging into me and leaving no blockers behind, because I was almost dead. I swung into his Vivien and killed it to pump my lone Deathgorge out of Finality range, which I cast to nuke his side of the board. He untaps with 9 lands, plays a 10th, rattles off Chupacabra for my Deathgorge and then a Carny T. I have 8 lands in play before my turn, and my grip is Chupes and The Eldest Reborn... rip a Greenseeker lol. In round 3 I fought to a game three where I just drew much less action than the opponent and couldn't keep up on board after stonewalling for the early and mid game.
Round 2: 2-0 Opponent
Round 3: 2-1 Opponent
Round 4 vs Burn
He leads game one with Ghitu Lavarunner, I play a Memorial and pass, he fires off two Wizard's Lightnings at my face and crashes for 2 more lol. I take my 2nd turn being down 12 to 20. Eventually he peters out after fighting through two copies of Deathgorge and a Findbroker for a 3rd. Frenzy comes down but before he can untap with it I rip a Vraska to take it out and put the game away
OUT:
2 Plaguecrafter
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 The Eldest Reborn
1 Find // Finality
IN:
1 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Moment of Craving
1 Deathgorge Scavenger
1 Vraska's Contempt
My opponent was stuck on 3 lands for a few turns and I simply cushioned myself so much that a few Risk Factors ended up being dead against me while I just swung in for 4-5 damage a turn
Round 4: 2-0 Me
Round 5 vs Bant Turns
Game one was decidedly won by Angrath. It just chewed into my opponent's reactive plays and left him needing to tuck it with Teferi, where I could just kill Teferi off with a lonely Dryad Greenseeker. Eventually he was dead on board and hand and topdecked Search for Azcanta before I responded with a Vivien -3 and a Findbroker to supply myself with planeswalker insurance
Game two was decided by early Duress -> Duress. I pinned the opponent into trying to set up Search for Azcanta, only to put him off a few turns with Deathgorge and holding removal. Opponent eventually lands Teferi and when he isn't on an extra turn, he passes with one card up. I have a flipped Treasure Map and after peeking with Greenseeker I see a Spyglass, then crack a Treasure to grab it and cast it. Last card in hand was Negate, which made me need something good to stay alive. Opponent draws dead and three cards from the top I rip Findbroker to buy back the Spyglass and cast it.
At this point, the opponent stonewalls me with one Carny T after the other. My first Plaguecrafter chews away the paralyzed Teferi, and during my opponent's EOT I use Memorial to get it back and take out one of two Tyrants left. Opponent draws dead for a few turns while a topdeck Vivien finds me a Findbroker for another Eldest Reborn. On the backfoot and facing lethal the next turn my opponent topdecks a Settle that gets discarded to Eldest Reborn, and I was able to cap off the game.
Round 5: 2-0 Me
Total record: 3-2 in Matches, 7-3 in Games (11th/30)
The GBx mirror feels a lot like the Modern Tron mirror. You can tailor your 75 to crimp the opponent on plays, or you can just blast at them with one haymaker after the next while hoping for a smoother curve and play sequence than the opponent.
Although Carnage Tyrant has cushion against me if the opponent has creatures to spam the board with, I felt comfortable trying to beat it rather than trying to win the Draw-Your-Endgame-First crapshoot myself.
I also have noticed that the version I play has a lot more gas against UWx due to the multiple discard spells (and Find // Finality to fish up Freebooters that were previously destroyed.) I prefer to gameplan in a similar fashion, and was thinking of some goofy tech for Carnage Tyrant. Detection Tower, Pelakka Wurm, and Star of Extinction come to mind. Star seems good if you're on the Boros Mid that plays The Immortal Sun to generate value against control and GB. Punishing the draws where the opponent just jams all their action has got to be a matchup breaker for sure.
In my testing before this event (with a 3x Carny T/3x Vivien type list) I found that one or two Pelakkas in the side made the opponent's sequence pretty bad on average. They have to rip the right removal for the right targets (Contempt for Wurm and Trophy for Vivien) and if they just overload on both types of removal, then your own Tyrant ends up having very little to oppose it. I really like having 3 Findbrokers and 3 The Eldest Reborn to win the board-clog cheese-fest, so having 3 Tyrant, 3 Vivien, 3 Find // Finality, 3 Findbroker, 3 The Eldest Reborn, 1 Pelakka Wurm, 2 Detection Tower seems to be like the ideal for the mirror. It's just a matter of finding the room for all this stuff lol
Id like to fit 2 Brontodon & 1 more Contempt in the 75
Congrats on the good results! That list looks very fun and versatile.
I just saw this list on Goldfish that went 5-0. It looks pretty similar to what I'm running, but looks a bit more streamlined. I love the blue splash too. Been wanting to make sultai work for a long time hehe.
Only thing I find worrying is the lack of Llanowar elves and Carnage Tyrants, but the list did 5-0, so what do I know. I guess having 12 exploring creatures should make sure the land drops are consistent to make up for the lack of a turn 2 Jadelight Ranger and stuff like that. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1448986#paper
I just find having a llanowar elf on the battlefield with a Carnage Tyrant is good in the mirror to prevent having a lone Carnage Tyrant taken out by an Eldest Reborn.
I think I'm going to tweak aroud this sultai list for my next FNM. Looks really fun.
Its very rare that CarnyT is the only creature on the board so aside from speeding up your curve, i dont see the appeal of Elves. I never want to see them outside of an opening hand....and while i can filter them away via explore, id rather utilize those triggers to pitch targets for Find and/or Findbroker. Given how grindy and resilient this deck is, its more than up to the task with a "fair" start.
Its very rare that CarnyT is the only creature on the board so aside from speeding up your curve, i dont see the appeal of Elves. I never want to see them outside of an opening hand....and while i can filter them away via explore, id rather utilize those triggers to pitch targets for Find and/or Findbroker. Given how grindy and resilient this deck is, its more than up to the task with a "fair" start.
I keep wobbling back and forth on the elves. I just keep taking them out. Even in the opening hand, they are removal bait right off the bat. Even when played on turn 1 seems like they die almost half the time before they can tap for mana. Occasionally the help me get out a turn 2 Midnight Reaper which I like, but I don't think it makes up for how easily they die in the current meta. My turn 1 slots are going to Duress and Adventurous Impulse.
Been back playing this deck lately. (I play single match ladder games on mtg arena, so no sideboard. Keep that in mind as my decklist is built for that environment.) Putting in more explore creatures has helped its consistency tremendously.
My favorite new addition is Graveyard Marshal as a 1 of. This guy has won me games basically on his own. He's a very sneaky late game creature against control. He can help us recover from a ritual of soot quite well. Without mill or more plaguecrafters, more than 1 can't be justified. He's also a great aggro creature when need be. That single copy is really legit though. Marshal has been so helpful, I'm almost tempted to mess around with more plaguecrafters or Sticher's Supplier with a 4th copy of Midnight Reaper to fit another copy or two of him in.
I believe that 1 or 2 copies of Duress belong in the mainboard. There are plenty of targets out there for it, and takes care of some of the biggest boogeymen of the format. When you turn 1 duress to get rid of an opponent's ritual of soot, Settle the wreckage or teferi you immediately love this card. It has also won me games in the mirror match up. Hit their planeswalker or find/finality or crucial removal spell and the game should be yours. The other reason I believe in this card is that our deck really needs to maintain its tempo. I think we need some turn 1 plays, but don't believe llanowar elves can fulfill that role very well.
Plaguecrafter has been pretty good in most situations as a 1 of. It has definitely killed off some planeswalkers since it's addition. Our deck gets rid of creature fine, but can struggle if the opponent lands a walker or 2.
I haven't been so happy with Vraska Queen of Golgari. I feel like Karn would be better suited for this deck. As voodoo mentioned earlier, she subtracts from your tempo in some situations. I recognize a 4th copy of overgrown tomb is necessary. That's the next on my list to grab.
The current iteration of GB Mid is reminiscent of Jund when Bloodbraid was printed. It was established early that the archetype had the tools to be the best deck of the format, and eventually people tried to strike its Achilles tendon. First with a low to the ground Boros matchup that would hope to steal games before the midrange deck got enough value to stabilize, then Goblin Ruinblaster and Spreading Seas to gimp the midrange deck's tempo, then finally playing two fetches + mana dork + Knight of the Reliquary, hoping to blank the first effective removal spell from Jund by searching up a Sejiri Steppe with Knight and then running away with the game afterward via Ranger of Eos and decently threatening bodies.
The Jund deck responded by gaining a new Achilles at every turn. Fighting off aggro with 1 CMC removal, playing more fetches and Sedraxis Specter to punish Blightning and Spreading Seas, then utilizing the likes of Deathmark, strong manlands, and Garruk Wildspeaker to fight the Naya decks that were loaded with plenty of ways to blank removal, so that there wouldn't be a big fuss to fire off multiple kill spells in a turn.
If we're going to adjust to all the new problems the format throws at us in similar fashion, we need to worry more about how to solve the matchups we face and less about how to do the most powerful thing in a vacuum (ramp into Carnage Tyrant, explore a bunch, etc.) Mono Red has come knocking on the door, and UWr Control has presented itself as a serious opponent, and now finally there are Phoenix/Drake decks that can just steal games if we don't kill Electromancer on time. Tocatli Honor Guard and The Immortal Sun have more than enough game to put us on very few outs, if we're not hedging for those.
Prior to the Boros Midrange decks evolving, I thought Thrashing Brontodon was actually just too inefficient against the format's best targets: History of Benalia, Search for Azcanta, The Eldest Reborn, and Experimental Frenzy.
It felt like you were either giving red the upper hand by letting them play around Brontodon with Chainwhirler, although it wasn't too far off from just being an excellent creature against them. The rest of those archetypes just kind of danced around Brontodon, and now I can see it actually proving worthwhile because of The Immortal Sun and even oddball options like the Two-Card Monte deck. To work around Disinformation Campaign as well, Reclamation Sage would probably be more effective tech, but you would need to have plenty of removal for Honor Guard to not shoot yourself in the foot by playing Sage.
The other evolution needed would be to address the mirror. You can either play into the crapshoot element of hoping to see your manadorks survive long enough to chain Tyrants together, or you could try to punish the curve of the opponent with additional discard elements and go under their endgame with sweepers to throw off their middling options. If not with a card like Angrath, the Flame-Chained, then at least with something that can help you trade one for one against the likes of Vivien Reid
I've been high on Deathgorge Scavenger to help the Phoenix matchup, since it's also just a threatening clock against control that stymies Search from going off soon in the round.
I think every GBx pilot would be remiss to disregard what the opponents are doing now that there is a target on the deck. Adjusting is better than just going even higher over the top with our threats
I have found Tocatli Honor Guard to be a pain in the butt. However, they tend to play it early when we are more likely to have/know to dig for a non-creature removal spell.
I haven't had much of a problem with mono-red. Are other people finding it challenging? I think Midnight Reaper really shines in this match up. We can just trade with their creatures while drawing cards the entire time. If they are dumb enough to attack into and trade for the creatures, they die. If they try to wait and play around the reaper, they die because our late game cards out class them. Do other people find them challenging?
Thrashing Brontodon is good. I wish I could fit more into the list somehow. Having a 3 drop that dodges lightning strike and deafening clarion is key. Also good in the mirror match up where it effectively blocks most 2 and 3 drop plays. It's back breaking when you can destroy a conclave tribunal type enchantment at the right time. I've also found Midnight Reaper to be really good in the mirror match up. Those matches seem to be about who can draw/explore the most cards. If not that, then who plays carnage tyrant first.
Graveyard Marshal is good too. Good against control post boardwipe, good against aggro by giving us access to plenty of creatures, good in the mirror when we need to out resource our opponent.
What do you guys think of Karn? I think I like him better than Vraska as it's easy to play him on curve and immediately draw a card without having to sac. a land or creature. I also like that it can make a creature, which seems more relevant than vraska's ultimate. That ultimate just rarely seems to happen, though I often wish vraska could produce a creature for me. Perhaps I should really be looking at Vraska, relic seeker instead.
I think Karn does everything right in the midrange and control matchups, except produce a threatening body. If we had more incidental artifacts to fuel it, I would be 100% on board. If you can manage to jam multiple copies of Treasure Map, it seems solid.
1 part tourney report, 17 parts looking for feedback on this list...
Just came back from a 3-0-1 finish at 17-person FNM. (Technically I went 4-0 but we split in advance as the only undefeated players going into the last round.) I beat Mono-U 2-1 and 2-0; Izzet Phoenix/Drakes 2-1; and Boros Angels (feat. blue) 2-1. Mana stumbles were prevalent on both sides quite often, so I can't say that I'm confident in taking my results at full face value.
That out of the way, I'll post the list, some of my thoughts, and then let better players than I have a go at telling me where it can be improved.
So yeah, there are a lot of 2- and 3-ofs. That's deliberate at this point as I'm trying to evaluate a lot of cards with not a lot of free time to do it. Plus, I've always favoured toolbox style decks (just wish I had some reliable tutoring!) The main feels really close to correct for my play style, but I know it can be improved.
Cards I like:
The Harpooners are outstanding with the flyer-based decks out there (and they are an easy cut otherwise).
I'm really high on the Reapers for card advantage, and find Journey to be outstanding if it can get going.
Arch only got played once, but 3-4 extra cards there made a huge difference.
The singleton Deathgorge and Bronto are pretty random but I think they have justified places.
Cards I don't like / have questions about:
I'm not on board with making room for Lawnmower Elves at all.
Should I make room for 1-2 more Folly? I prefer to limit my ETB tapped lands but maybe I'm overly cautious in only running 2 (plus a guildgate)?
Consistent explore guys vs. silver bullets?
Not totally sold on baby Vraska.
As far as the board is concerned:
My big question marks are Izoni (for the mirror?) and the Raptors (against red).
Deadeyes look really sketchy (and prolly they are), but they single-handedly gave me the win against Izzet so for now they've earned a repeat appearance.
I considered some number of Wild Growth Walkers, but with only 8 explore guys main and the Trackers not being a board-in option for decks where I'd want WGW, I don't feel like they would be reliable enough.
I've always done best with midrange (particularly The Rock flavour) decks, so I want to do what I can to make this work better. Thanks in advance for all advice!
Do you think you mostly use Find//Finality for it's find effect more often then not? I've been wondering about people playing 3 copies of this mainboard. With your deck list, you don't have many early creatures that can actually be bumped up to the 5 toughness required to survive Finality. Seems like a boardwipe that hits you as hard as it hits them in most cases doesn't justify 3 copies. I could very easily be looking at this the wrong way as the card has so many different ways to play it. What am I missing? Seems like a 1 or 2 of maindeck at most.
As mentioned previously, I too love Reaper enough to run 3 copies mb. See my last post for discussion on him.
Brontodon is great when he shows up. Playing 1 of's can feel weird mb, but the diversity of functions for this card justifies this card. Good in the mirror match up because he blocks all 2 drops effectively and most 3 drops without dying. If I were playing with a sideboard, there would be another copy of brontodon in there.
1 of Duress mb seems good too. Every deck I run up against seems to have enough targets for this. Play it early. Playing one of these can often be the edge you need against control decks to win. If I'm lucky enough to play this against control in the first few turns it seems to significantly increase my chances of winning. If it occasionally whiffs against an aggro/midrange deck, we usually have enough legs to recover from that.
Seems like everyone is skeptical of Vraska, Queen Golgari these days. The +1 ability is really only good late game when you've already hit your 6th land drop. The -2 is pretty situational as well. This card seems like sideboard against control at best. I've got a rare mythic wildcard and I'm eyeing Karn to switch out Vraska.
Could llanowar elves be sideboard tech as well? Used in the mirror, or vs. aggro?
Hey, thanks for taking the time to comment. Really appreciate it.
Find // Finality is a card I've not actually evaluated since plugging them into the deck. I'll put them on my watchlist as I do more testing. You're right, I do tend to use the front half much more often, and don't have a lot of early drops to really make the back half shine. Hmmm...
A single Duress is interesting. My first iteration of this list featured 3 Kitesail Freebooters main as they filled a similar role, as my past experience with Rock lists (back in the days of the O.G. Rock) was that mainddeck discard was an essential tool. Again, hmmm...
As far as the 1-ofs goes, yeah it's sketchy without reliable tutoring (I miss my Vampiric Tutors!). More testing is needed to tell me if I'm on the right track here or just got lucky with some of my draws. It almost feels like the graveyard-based Stitcher's Supplier etc. lists are the ones that have the better tutoring options, just in a slightly different form. I'm not convinced enough to switch my focus (yet), but I'll noodle around with it.
On the Elves plan... I find it difficult to justify slots for a card that really only has an impact on T1/2, and is a progressively worse topdeck as the game goes on. I'd rather run cards that have value in more stages of the game. Willing to admit I'm wrong and/or undervaluing their potential, but my first list ran them and they just felt so bad.
I definitely think I need to reevaluate my curve. Trying not to go overboard in light of this weekend's PT Top 8 (that's a ton and a half of weenies).
Find // Finality is one of the best cards in the deck. It's good against control when they take out all your creatures and it's good if decks try to overwhelm you by going wide and you simply wipe the board clean.
Comments on Find//Finality make sense. I keep wanting a good straight draw card spell in black which we don't have. Find is almost as good given this is a creature based deck. Finality is not to be underestimated either. Plenty of games have been won off Finality on my end, it just takes a while for it to line up right. More 2 or 3 cmc drop creatures that can survive the Finality would help the overall ability to use Find/Finality. It's just a greater chance to use the Find part on the right card while giving you something nice for the second copy of Find//Finality.
So what do we do (if anything) about W/x Weenie? I know that the top 8 was not truly representative of the standard meta, but clearly those decks have something going for them. I'm really not a fan of trying to lower our curve to match them (won't happen anyway), and I don't know how I feel about running maindeck removal like Golden Demise / Ritual of Soot (mostly because when we need to play them -- early -- they crush us too).
I'm already on a pair of Kraul Harpooners main, and I might bring that up to 3 or even 4. I'm also considering dumping Merfolk Branchwalker in favour of the full set of Seekers' Squire as a better blocker (that an explore'd Squire can also survive a Finality is gravy). I'm also considering making room for some Druid of the Cowl and make bigger 4-drops such as Ripjaw Raptor to clog the ground.
That said, I'm sure doing all that would just wreck our other matchups. So I'm wondering, what maindeck changes (if any) are going to have the biggest bang in the weenie match while not costing us significant percentages elsewhere?
So what do we do (if anything) about W/x Weenie? I know that the top 8 was not truly representative of the standard meta, but clearly those decks have something going for them. I'm really not a fan of trying to lower our curve to match them (won't happen anyway), and I don't know how I feel about running maindeck removal like Golden Demise / Ritual of Soot (mostly because when we need to play them -- early -- they crush us too).
I'm already on a pair of Kraul Harpooners main, and I might bring that up to 3 or even 4. I'm also considering dumping Merfolk Branchwalker in favour of the full set of Seekers' Squire as a better blocker (that an explore'd Squire can also survive a Finality is gravy). I'm also considering making room for some Druid of the Cowl and make bigger 4-drops such as Ripjaw Raptor to clog the ground.
That said, I'm sure doing all that would just wreck our other matchups. So I'm wondering, what maindeck changes (if any) are going to have the biggest bang in the weenie match while not costing us significant percentages elsewhere?
I think going up to 4 seeker's squire is a good idea. I want more creatures that can survive finality. squire is also better against mono-red as it can block fanatical firebrand even without the +1/+1 counter. Branchwalker can't say the same.
Would another Thrashing Brontodon help? I haven't played much against white weenie. If they are playing a lot of 1 toughness creatures, Fungal Infection could be a nice early 2 for 1. Or dead weight if fungal infection isn't good. Golden Demise might not be that unreasonable if played on turn 3 or 4. Just don't play a 2 drop that will get killed. Or do play an explore creature and you already got some value out of the creature even if it dies.
Actually, the secret tech to adopt is to play mainboard Pilfering Imp. Match their 1/1 fliers with your own! Haha, I'm kinda kidding. I think the best thing to do is to adapt the deck by adding in more cheap removal. Fungal Infection is a glorious 2 for 1 that is also VERY good against Mono-Blue Tempo. Moment of Craving also looks more and more impressive as the meta develops as well. I currently play a mix of the 2 in my Sultai Control list and it's been performing admirably for me against the various Aggro decks that exist.
I might be suggesting heresy, but it might be correct to drop the Explore package. While watching Wildgrowth Walker exceed Tarmogoyf in Power and Toughness, I think it dictates a style of deck that may not be as effective against White Weenie and the current changes in the meta. I think that Golgari should definitely be creature based so as to best take advantage of the recursion that Golgari currently has available to it. Golgari Findbroker , Find // Finality, and The Eldest Reborn are some of the best cards in the format right now.
Plague Mare might be the new tech to adopt since it's a creature based wrath effect that hits most of the Weenie deck AND Adanto Vanguard while blocking the Vanguard all day.
Kraul Harpooner is another fantastic choice because it also functions as a removal spell against the Izzet Drakes decks that are becoming increasingly popular on Arena. Kill their Hawk and keep a body on the board that can help clog it up, buying time for the Find // Finality
A card I've recently (re)discovered is Phyrexian Scriptures. This could be a great addition to the deck since it's a permanent that can be recurred via the Findbroker while also giving an edge during combat for the turn it ETB's.
Now, I've noticed that I lose to control much more often than any other archetype during these single matches. Seemingly even while drafting and playing single game matches. I now believe that this 2 hand generator that give you the "better" land to spell ratio actually favors control decks. You see, aggro and midrange decks have the advantage of being able to keep hands with fewer lands in them. Control decks in standard generally need to play a higher land count in the deck and will have to mulligan more hands with only 1-2 lands. This two hand generator seems to lean more towards giving you opening hands of 2-4 lands per hand (especially 3.) Control decks can be happy with 3-4 lands in hand, while aggro/midrange suffer when they have too few early spells and too many lands. Given this, do you think control would naturally gain some advantage in these single game matches? Is it that control can build a better deck given there is no sideboarding allowed? Are the U/B decks just better than most of what's out there? Anyone else playing arena out there who has noticed this?
I just switched back to playing my much less refined U/B surveil control on Arena and have been kicking ass. I mean it's night and day vs. my more refined G/B Midrange deck. I'm at about an 80% win percentage over the last 20 games playing U/B, VS. maybe a 30% win percentage for the past 20 games with my G/B midrange. The reason this is an especially stark contrast is that I have the least experience/skill playing control by far.
I've been noticing all of the same archetype popping up as enemies too. Once nigh unbeatable archetypes become seemingly easy to handle.
As to Voodoo's comment on U/B not having enough threat density: I can win with a single Ravenous Chupacabra on the battlefield. Disinformation Campaign destroys any hand late game. Despite me only having 2 Doom Whisperer and 2 Dream Eater (kind of the 2 Blood Operative) as finishers, the deck just wins. My deck used to run 4 thoughtbound phantasm which can turn into finishers, but the deck didn't need them. I want to make the deck more threat dense, but don't have the wildcards to do so. Anyway, it's like this deck doesn't need a wincon besides keep 2-for-1ing the opponent into no hand. Then win with whatever creature is laying around. I had noticed this trend when playing against U/B control as G/B midrange. Seems like if they can use a disinformation campaign twice on you the game is pretty much over.
Also, not once did I say UB lacked threat density. I said it lacked the options to keep up when it is on the backfoot. With UW, Teferi can just draw you two cards a turn for 5 mana once. For your little Campaign interactions you need to be spending at least 3 times as much mana to keep your defenses up for the time it takes to whittle away your opponent's resources, and still yet you have to answer planeswalkers with something else entirely. The card isn't as backbreaking as you think it is, and it's honestly not conducive to your own growth as a player to let a lack of scientific data decide what a good strategy is
You're right, I didn't correctly remember your statement "threat density" I meant to address this comment:
I'm just saying, my janky rogue U/B control deck doesn't seem to have much of a problem with this. It's still in it's infancy, but it feels much better equipped to handle control/midrange decks. I'm sure you know much more about the standard meta than me, it's why I'm here on the thread. If GBx Midrange and UWx Teferi Control are the top of the meta, my U/B control deck has been doing very well against them. Of course all this doesn't apply directly to competitive play where sideboards become involved, and lists are perfectly refined. However, I was trying to use the tools at hand to determine if G/B midrange or U/B control would be a better choice for Arena. I'm working my way up to a sideboard and competitive play without spending any $.
You are oversimplifying the benefit of playing Teferi I believe. My deck has the ability to "go under" control wise vs.the u/w deck sometimes. There are actually many answers to Teferi in my deck, counterspells, Thought Erasure, Dream Eater, Discovery/Dispersal and even Disinformation Campaign. Your point about the power level is taken though, perhaps my deck would get better with a splash of White to play my own Teferi and have the best of both worlds.
Where do I have delusions of grandeur? I've been saying that I'm playing budget ladder games on Arena. How does that imply delusions of grandeur? Where did I say my deck was the best?
If you read my comment, it was mostly about questioning if the single game match/take the best land to spell ratio out of 2 hands gave control an edge over aggro and midrange. I asked the question if U/B control is just better than this archetype/what's out there. I didn't state that it was, in fact I was giving reasons as to why playing on the ladder in arena gave the deck a false edge that it wouldn't have in real life.
There is nobody who has scientific information about Standard Meta Magic. If you think you do, your "delusions of grandeur" may have been getting to your brain lol. No player has a big enough sample size, nor a control group, nor is organized enough to gather scientific data, so calm down. It's part of what makes Magic fun, there is no definitive "best deck" or "best way" to play the game. However we can make guesses based on past experiences and reasoning. Even pouring over tournament results can't give you definitive scientific data.
Anyway, does anyone have any speculation on the single game match system improving control's win percentage?
You are probably right about Teferi being better able to beat U/B control. However, in my rigorous, thorough gathering of scientific data (playing some Magic games) I have been beating even the dreaded Teferi. Of course I need to get more grants and colleagues to start replicating my pilot studies to truly verify my results. However, you can expect my study to appear in the next "Scientific Magic Players' Journal"
As an avid player of Control in Arena, and having translated my $200+ cash from the selling of my collection into Beta, I've got a pretty decent selection of cards to build around on Arena. As I've been playing, I've noticed a similar trend. I would say that perhaps 60%+ of my games I start with at least 3 lands, which is perfect for the Control list I've been piloting. However, I've also been royally mana screwed in some games. As in I start with 2 lands and never draw another one. It's my least favorite aspect about Arena currently (possibly because I've just had 5, YES, 5 games of back to back mana screw despite running 25 lands). So, I think that I'm emotionally biased at the time of writing this but I would agree that Arena tends to favor Mid-Range or Control decks in its algorithms. Again, this is mostly an observation and has no conclusive data to support this observation, since data seems to be important to people now...
I was playing against a Grixis Surveil deck that used Nicol Bolas and Disinformation Campaign to great effect. It shredded my hand via the Campaigns, Thought Erasure, Burglar Rat and Nicol Bolas, the Ravager to leave me drained of card advantage. Combined with the Surveil ability on Sinister Sabotage, Discovery // Dispersal and Dream Eater, it was able to successfully recycle the Campaigns to erode my hand over time. I think that the deck has some legs as a Grixis shell, since splashing for the decent Burn spells that are currently available is a nice way to keep control of Aggro decks while also helping you close the door on Control decks.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Merfolk Branchwalker
3 Wildgrowth Walker
4 Jadelight Ranger
2 Golgari Findbroker
1 Seekers' Squire
2 Ravenous Chupacabra
1 Doom Whisperer
1 Thief of Sanity
1 Muldrotha, the Gravetide
1 Lazav, the Multifarious
2 Carnage Tyrant
1 Izoni, Thousand-Eyed
2 Find // Finality
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Mausoleum Secrets
1 The Eldest Reborn
1 Dead Weight
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Lands (23)
5 Forest
3 Watery Grave
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Memorial to Folly
2 Hinterland Harbor
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
1 The Eldest Reborn
4 Duress
1 Unmoored Ego
2 Connive // Concoct
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Thief of Sanity
1 The Immortal Sun
1 Plague Mare
1 Phyrexian Scriptures
2 Ritual of Soot
Might as well post what I've been testing. I'm a sucker for toolbox decks and this one seems just primed for such things. So far I've had very good results with this and absolutely think the blue is worth the splash; certainly for sideboard options if nothing else. With the abundance of control decks floating around the competitive scene, having access to things like Thief of Sanity and Unmoored Ego as a searchable effect via Mausoleum Secrets seems very good. The sideboard is reasonably tuned, but there is certainly room for suggestion.
2 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Deathgorge Scavenger
2 District Guide
3 Jadelight Ranger
2 Plaguecrafter
2 Golgari Findbroker
3 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 Angrath, the Flame-Chained
1 Vivien Reid
2 Vraska, Relic Seeker
1 Treasure Map
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
2 Cast Down
1 The Eldest Reborn
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Vraska's Contempt
1 Find // Finality
1 Field of Ruin
2 Memorial to Folly
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Dragonskull Summit
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
5 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Kitesail Freebooter
1 Banefire
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 The Eldest Reborn
2 Moment of Craving
3 Duress
2 Ritual of Soot
1 Deathgorge Scavenger
1 Find // Finality
1 Vraska's Contempt
1 Price of Fame
Cast Downs were a hedge against Tocatli Honor Guard. I wasn't too high on my 75 but only because I wish I had some extra insurance for the mirror (1 more Findbroker and 1 more Eldest Reborn) without sacrificing too much against the more aggressive archetypes
Round 1: GB Mid
Pretty stock. He did GB things, I drew very little action and lost game 1 to multiple walkers
SB Plan:
OUT:
2 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Cast Down
2 Assassin's Trophy
IN:
1 The Eldest Reborn
2 Ritual of Soot
1 Deathgorge Scavenger
1 Find // Finality
1 Vraska's Contempt
Wanted to just pinch him off of having extra creatures aside from Carnage Tyrant, and then edict it. I went over the top of my opponent in game 2 with walkers and he scooped before I could ultimate a Vraska
In game three I got to steal the opponent's Carny T with an Eldest Reborn, and from there I was able to chew up a few of his value spells with Angrath as he wasn't able to curve out properly.
Round 1: 2-1 Me
Rounds 2 and 3 were both against GB mid as well. In game one of round two, I was able to goad my opponent into swinging into me and leaving no blockers behind, because I was almost dead. I swung into his Vivien and killed it to pump my lone Deathgorge out of Finality range, which I cast to nuke his side of the board. He untaps with 9 lands, plays a 10th, rattles off Chupacabra for my Deathgorge and then a Carny T. I have 8 lands in play before my turn, and my grip is Chupes and The Eldest Reborn... rip a Greenseeker lol. In round 3 I fought to a game three where I just drew much less action than the opponent and couldn't keep up on board after stonewalling for the early and mid game.
Round 2: 2-0 Opponent
Round 3: 2-1 Opponent
Round 4 vs Burn
He leads game one with Ghitu Lavarunner, I play a Memorial and pass, he fires off two Wizard's Lightnings at my face and crashes for 2 more lol. I take my 2nd turn being down 12 to 20. Eventually he peters out after fighting through two copies of Deathgorge and a Findbroker for a 3rd. Frenzy comes down but before he can untap with it I rip a Vraska to take it out and put the game away
OUT:
2 Plaguecrafter
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 The Eldest Reborn
1 Find // Finality
IN:
1 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Moment of Craving
1 Deathgorge Scavenger
1 Vraska's Contempt
My opponent was stuck on 3 lands for a few turns and I simply cushioned myself so much that a few Risk Factors ended up being dead against me while I just swung in for 4-5 damage a turn
Round 4: 2-0 Me
Round 5 vs Bant Turns
Game one was decidedly won by Angrath. It just chewed into my opponent's reactive plays and left him needing to tuck it with Teferi, where I could just kill Teferi off with a lonely Dryad Greenseeker. Eventually he was dead on board and hand and topdecked Search for Azcanta before I responded with a Vivien -3 and a Findbroker to supply myself with planeswalker insurance
OUT:
3 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 Cast Down
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Vraska's Contempt
IN:
1 Kitesail Freebooter
1 Banefire
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 The Eldest Reborn
3 Duress
1 Deathgorge Scavenger
1 Find // Finality
Game two was decided by early Duress -> Duress. I pinned the opponent into trying to set up Search for Azcanta, only to put him off a few turns with Deathgorge and holding removal. Opponent eventually lands Teferi and when he isn't on an extra turn, he passes with one card up. I have a flipped Treasure Map and after peeking with Greenseeker I see a Spyglass, then crack a Treasure to grab it and cast it. Last card in hand was Negate, which made me need something good to stay alive. Opponent draws dead and three cards from the top I rip Findbroker to buy back the Spyglass and cast it.
At this point, the opponent stonewalls me with one Carny T after the other. My first Plaguecrafter chews away the paralyzed Teferi, and during my opponent's EOT I use Memorial to get it back and take out one of two Tyrants left. Opponent draws dead for a few turns while a topdeck Vivien finds me a Findbroker for another Eldest Reborn. On the backfoot and facing lethal the next turn my opponent topdecks a Settle that gets discarded to Eldest Reborn, and I was able to cap off the game.
Round 5: 2-0 Me
Total record: 3-2 in Matches, 7-3 in Games (11th/30)
The GBx mirror feels a lot like the Modern Tron mirror. You can tailor your 75 to crimp the opponent on plays, or you can just blast at them with one haymaker after the next while hoping for a smoother curve and play sequence than the opponent.
Although Carnage Tyrant has cushion against me if the opponent has creatures to spam the board with, I felt comfortable trying to beat it rather than trying to win the Draw-Your-Endgame-First crapshoot myself.
I also have noticed that the version I play has a lot more gas against UWx due to the multiple discard spells (and Find // Finality to fish up Freebooters that were previously destroyed.) I prefer to gameplan in a similar fashion, and was thinking of some goofy tech for Carnage Tyrant. Detection Tower, Pelakka Wurm, and Star of Extinction come to mind. Star seems good if you're on the Boros Mid that plays The Immortal Sun to generate value against control and GB. Punishing the draws where the opponent just jams all their action has got to be a matchup breaker for sure.
In my testing before this event (with a 3x Carny T/3x Vivien type list) I found that one or two Pelakkas in the side made the opponent's sequence pretty bad on average. They have to rip the right removal for the right targets (Contempt for Wurm and Trophy for Vivien) and if they just overload on both types of removal, then your own Tyrant ends up having very little to oppose it. I really like having 3 Findbrokers and 3 The Eldest Reborn to win the board-clog cheese-fest, so having 3 Tyrant, 3 Vivien, 3 Find // Finality, 3 Findbroker, 3 The Eldest Reborn, 1 Pelakka Wurm, 2 Detection Tower seems to be like the ideal for the mirror. It's just a matter of finding the room for all this stuff lol
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Woodland Cemetery
2x Memorial to Folly
8x Forest
5x Swamp
Creatures (24)
4x Jadelight Ranger
4x Merfolk Branchwalker
3x Seekers' Squire
3x Ravenous Chupacabra
2x Plaguecrafter
2x Golgari Findbroker
2x Carnage Tyrant
2x Midnight Reaper
2x Wildgrowth Walker
2x Assassin's Trophy
2x Vraska's Contempt
Sorcery (3)
3x Find // Finality
Enchantment (1)
1x The Eldest Reborn
Planeswalkers (5)
2x Vivien Reid
2x Vraska, Relic Seeker
1x Vraska, Golgari Queen
4x Duress
2x Cast Down
2x Deathgorge Scavenger
2x Wildgrowth Walker
2x Golden Demise
1x Carnage Tyrant
1x The Eldest Reborn
1x Arguel's Blood Fast
Id like to fit 2 Brontodon & 1 more Contempt in the 75
Congrats on the good results! That list looks very fun and versatile.
I just saw this list on Goldfish that went 5-0. It looks pretty similar to what I'm running, but looks a bit more streamlined. I love the blue splash too. Been wanting to make sultai work for a long time hehe.
Only thing I find worrying is the lack of Llanowar elves and Carnage Tyrants, but the list did 5-0, so what do I know. I guess having 12 exploring creatures should make sure the land drops are consistent to make up for the lack of a turn 2 Jadelight Ranger and stuff like that.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1448986#paper
I just find having a llanowar elf on the battlefield with a Carnage Tyrant is good in the mirror to prevent having a lone Carnage Tyrant taken out by an Eldest Reborn.
I think I'm going to tweak aroud this sultai list for my next FNM. Looks really fun.
I keep wobbling back and forth on the elves. I just keep taking them out. Even in the opening hand, they are removal bait right off the bat. Even when played on turn 1 seems like they die almost half the time before they can tap for mana. Occasionally the help me get out a turn 2 Midnight Reaper which I like, but I don't think it makes up for how easily they die in the current meta. My turn 1 slots are going to Duress and Adventurous Impulse.
Been back playing this deck lately. (I play single match ladder games on mtg arena, so no sideboard. Keep that in mind as my decklist is built for that environment.) Putting in more explore creatures has helped its consistency tremendously.
My favorite new addition is Graveyard Marshal as a 1 of. This guy has won me games basically on his own. He's a very sneaky late game creature against control. He can help us recover from a ritual of soot quite well. Without mill or more plaguecrafters, more than 1 can't be justified. He's also a great aggro creature when need be. That single copy is really legit though. Marshal has been so helpful, I'm almost tempted to mess around with more plaguecrafters or Sticher's Supplier with a 4th copy of Midnight Reaper to fit another copy or two of him in.
I believe that 1 or 2 copies of Duress belong in the mainboard. There are plenty of targets out there for it, and takes care of some of the biggest boogeymen of the format. When you turn 1 duress to get rid of an opponent's ritual of soot, Settle the wreckage or teferi you immediately love this card. It has also won me games in the mirror match up. Hit their planeswalker or find/finality or crucial removal spell and the game should be yours. The other reason I believe in this card is that our deck really needs to maintain its tempo. I think we need some turn 1 plays, but don't believe llanowar elves can fulfill that role very well.
Plaguecrafter has been pretty good in most situations as a 1 of. It has definitely killed off some planeswalkers since it's addition. Our deck gets rid of creature fine, but can struggle if the opponent lands a walker or 2.
Here's my current list.
4x Merfolk Branchwalker
3x Seeker's Squire
1x Graveyard Marshal
1x Thorn Lieutenant
3x Midnight Reaper
2x Jadelight Ranger
1x Plaguecrafter
1x Thrashing Brontodon
3x Ravenous Chupacabra
2x Golgari Findbroker
2x Doom Whisperer
1x Carnage Tyrant
1x Adventurous Impulse
2x Duress
2x Cast Down
3x Assassin's Trophy
1x Vraska, Golgari Queen
1x Vivien Reid
1x The eldest Reborn
1x Find/Finality
9x Swamp
8x Forest
4x Woodland Cemetery
3x Overgrown Tomb
I haven't been so happy with Vraska Queen of Golgari. I feel like Karn would be better suited for this deck. As voodoo mentioned earlier, she subtracts from your tempo in some situations. I recognize a 4th copy of overgrown tomb is necessary. That's the next on my list to grab.
The Jund deck responded by gaining a new Achilles at every turn. Fighting off aggro with 1 CMC removal, playing more fetches and Sedraxis Specter to punish Blightning and Spreading Seas, then utilizing the likes of Deathmark, strong manlands, and Garruk Wildspeaker to fight the Naya decks that were loaded with plenty of ways to blank removal, so that there wouldn't be a big fuss to fire off multiple kill spells in a turn.
If we're going to adjust to all the new problems the format throws at us in similar fashion, we need to worry more about how to solve the matchups we face and less about how to do the most powerful thing in a vacuum (ramp into Carnage Tyrant, explore a bunch, etc.) Mono Red has come knocking on the door, and UWr Control has presented itself as a serious opponent, and now finally there are Phoenix/Drake decks that can just steal games if we don't kill Electromancer on time. Tocatli Honor Guard and The Immortal Sun have more than enough game to put us on very few outs, if we're not hedging for those.
Prior to the Boros Midrange decks evolving, I thought Thrashing Brontodon was actually just too inefficient against the format's best targets: History of Benalia, Search for Azcanta, The Eldest Reborn, and Experimental Frenzy.
It felt like you were either giving red the upper hand by letting them play around Brontodon with Chainwhirler, although it wasn't too far off from just being an excellent creature against them. The rest of those archetypes just kind of danced around Brontodon, and now I can see it actually proving worthwhile because of The Immortal Sun and even oddball options like the Two-Card Monte deck. To work around Disinformation Campaign as well, Reclamation Sage would probably be more effective tech, but you would need to have plenty of removal for Honor Guard to not shoot yourself in the foot by playing Sage.
The other evolution needed would be to address the mirror. You can either play into the crapshoot element of hoping to see your manadorks survive long enough to chain Tyrants together, or you could try to punish the curve of the opponent with additional discard elements and go under their endgame with sweepers to throw off their middling options. If not with a card like Angrath, the Flame-Chained, then at least with something that can help you trade one for one against the likes of Vivien Reid
I've been high on Deathgorge Scavenger to help the Phoenix matchup, since it's also just a threatening clock against control that stymies Search from going off soon in the round.
I think every GBx pilot would be remiss to disregard what the opponents are doing now that there is a target on the deck. Adjusting is better than just going even higher over the top with our threats
I haven't had much of a problem with mono-red. Are other people finding it challenging? I think Midnight Reaper really shines in this match up. We can just trade with their creatures while drawing cards the entire time. If they are dumb enough to attack into and trade for the creatures, they die. If they try to wait and play around the reaper, they die because our late game cards out class them. Do other people find them challenging?
Thrashing Brontodon is good. I wish I could fit more into the list somehow. Having a 3 drop that dodges lightning strike and deafening clarion is key. Also good in the mirror match up where it effectively blocks most 2 and 3 drop plays. It's back breaking when you can destroy a conclave tribunal type enchantment at the right time. I've also found Midnight Reaper to be really good in the mirror match up. Those matches seem to be about who can draw/explore the most cards. If not that, then who plays carnage tyrant first.
Graveyard Marshal is good too. Good against control post boardwipe, good against aggro by giving us access to plenty of creatures, good in the mirror when we need to out resource our opponent.
I'm considering dropping my last copy of Vraska, Golgari Queen for a Karn, scion of urza or a 3rd copy of Golgari Findbroker.
What do you guys think of Karn? I think I like him better than Vraska as it's easy to play him on curve and immediately draw a card without having to sac. a land or creature. I also like that it can make a creature, which seems more relevant than vraska's ultimate. That ultimate just rarely seems to happen, though I often wish vraska could produce a creature for me. Perhaps I should really be looking at Vraska, relic seeker instead.
Just came back from a 3-0-1 finish at 17-person FNM. (Technically I went 4-0 but we split in advance as the only undefeated players going into the last round.) I beat Mono-U 2-1 and 2-0; Izzet Phoenix/Drakes 2-1; and Boros Angels (feat. blue) 2-1. Mana stumbles were prevalent on both sides quite often, so I can't say that I'm confident in taking my results at full face value.
That out of the way, I'll post the list, some of my thoughts, and then let better players than I have a go at telling me where it can be improved.
5 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetary
2 Memorial to Folly
1 Golgari Guildgate
1 Arch of Orazca
3 Merfolk Branchwalker
2 Seeker's Squire
2 Kraul Harpooner
3 Jadelight Ranger
2 Midnight Reaper
1 Thrashing Brontodon
1 Deathgorge Scavenger
3 Ravenous Chupacabra
2 Golgari Findbroker
2 Carnage Tyrant
1 Vraska, Golgari Queen
3 Find // Finality
3 Assassin's Trophy
3 Vraska's Contempt
1 Cast Down
1 Journey to Eternity
3 Duress
3 Moment of Craving
2 Deadeye Tracker
2 Plaguecrafter
2 Ripjaw Raptor
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Izoni, Thousand-Eyed
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
So yeah, there are a lot of 2- and 3-ofs. That's deliberate at this point as I'm trying to evaluate a lot of cards with not a lot of free time to do it. Plus, I've always favoured toolbox style decks (just wish I had some reliable tutoring!) The main feels really close to correct for my play style, but I know it can be improved.
Cards I like:
Cards I don't like / have questions about:
As far as the board is concerned:
I've always done best with midrange (particularly The Rock flavour) decks, so I want to do what I can to make this work better. Thanks in advance for all advice!
As mentioned previously, I too love Reaper enough to run 3 copies mb. See my last post for discussion on him.
Brontodon is great when he shows up. Playing 1 of's can feel weird mb, but the diversity of functions for this card justifies this card. Good in the mirror match up because he blocks all 2 drops effectively and most 3 drops without dying. If I were playing with a sideboard, there would be another copy of brontodon in there.
1 of Duress mb seems good too. Every deck I run up against seems to have enough targets for this. Play it early. Playing one of these can often be the edge you need against control decks to win. If I'm lucky enough to play this against control in the first few turns it seems to significantly increase my chances of winning. If it occasionally whiffs against an aggro/midrange deck, we usually have enough legs to recover from that.
Seems like everyone is skeptical of Vraska, Queen Golgari these days. The +1 ability is really only good late game when you've already hit your 6th land drop. The -2 is pretty situational as well. This card seems like sideboard against control at best. I've got a rare mythic wildcard and I'm eyeing Karn to switch out Vraska.
Could llanowar elves be sideboard tech as well? Used in the mirror, or vs. aggro?
Find // Finality is a card I've not actually evaluated since plugging them into the deck. I'll put them on my watchlist as I do more testing. You're right, I do tend to use the front half much more often, and don't have a lot of early drops to really make the back half shine. Hmmm...
A single Duress is interesting. My first iteration of this list featured 3 Kitesail Freebooters main as they filled a similar role, as my past experience with Rock lists (back in the days of the O.G. Rock) was that mainddeck discard was an essential tool. Again, hmmm...
As far as the 1-ofs goes, yeah it's sketchy without reliable tutoring (I miss my Vampiric Tutors!). More testing is needed to tell me if I'm on the right track here or just got lucky with some of my draws. It almost feels like the graveyard-based Stitcher's Supplier etc. lists are the ones that have the better tutoring options, just in a slightly different form. I'm not convinced enough to switch my focus (yet), but I'll noodle around with it.
On the Elves plan... I find it difficult to justify slots for a card that really only has an impact on T1/2, and is a progressively worse topdeck as the game goes on. I'd rather run cards that have value in more stages of the game. Willing to admit I'm wrong and/or undervaluing their potential, but my first list ran them and they just felt so bad.
I definitely think I need to reevaluate my curve. Trying not to go overboard in light of this weekend's PT Top 8 (that's a ton and a half of weenies).
Modern
Ad Nauseam
Dredge
Living End
Legacy
Lands
I'm already on a pair of Kraul Harpooners main, and I might bring that up to 3 or even 4. I'm also considering dumping Merfolk Branchwalker in favour of the full set of Seekers' Squire as a better blocker (that an explore'd Squire can also survive a Finality is gravy). I'm also considering making room for some Druid of the Cowl and make bigger 4-drops such as Ripjaw Raptor to clog the ground.
That said, I'm sure doing all that would just wreck our other matchups. So I'm wondering, what maindeck changes (if any) are going to have the biggest bang in the weenie match while not costing us significant percentages elsewhere?
Also, should I be running harpooner at all?
I think going up to 4 seeker's squire is a good idea. I want more creatures that can survive finality. squire is also better against mono-red as it can block fanatical firebrand even without the +1/+1 counter. Branchwalker can't say the same.
Would another Thrashing Brontodon help? I haven't played much against white weenie. If they are playing a lot of 1 toughness creatures, Fungal Infection could be a nice early 2 for 1. Or dead weight if fungal infection isn't good. Golden Demise might not be that unreasonable if played on turn 3 or 4. Just don't play a 2 drop that will get killed. Or do play an explore creature and you already got some value out of the creature even if it dies.
I might be suggesting heresy, but it might be correct to drop the Explore package. While watching Wildgrowth Walker exceed Tarmogoyf in Power and Toughness, I think it dictates a style of deck that may not be as effective against White Weenie and the current changes in the meta. I think that Golgari should definitely be creature based so as to best take advantage of the recursion that Golgari currently has available to it. Golgari Findbroker , Find // Finality, and The Eldest Reborn are some of the best cards in the format right now.
Plague Mare might be the new tech to adopt since it's a creature based wrath effect that hits most of the Weenie deck AND Adanto Vanguard while blocking the Vanguard all day.
Kraul Harpooner is another fantastic choice because it also functions as a removal spell against the Izzet Drakes decks that are becoming increasingly popular on Arena. Kill their Hawk and keep a body on the board that can help clog it up, buying time for the Find // Finality
A card I've recently (re)discovered is Phyrexian Scriptures. This could be a great addition to the deck since it's a permanent that can be recurred via the Findbroker while also giving an edge during combat for the turn it ETB's.
Also, Isareth the Awakener is really quite good as well.
Anyways, I hope that these ideas help spark some ideas on combating the changes in the meta.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager