On Chromium, the Mutable, I dropped this card. I liked the idea of it, but boy did it feel bad tapping mana for it on the rare chance I was stable on 7. My games with Lyra Dawnbringer were much more stable.
I don't understand the problem with "tapping" for Chromium, The Mutable, he haves flash so that is not a problem. I would argue that a 7 CMC is the real issue in this kinda fast meta.
I don't know if the mana is good enough to support Settle the Wreckage turn 4 consistently so that could be a problem.
Because vs decks that go to the length where tapping 7 EOT is a thing, often times it was draw go and they just countered it. He had to be safely cast on turn 10 if I wanted him to somewhat reliably resolve.
The game really should not go that long, and your finishers shouldn't be taking that long to drop. Tapping 7 for Chromium felt bad unless I had backup mana for counter magic. The difference between something like Chromium costing 7 and something like Nexus costing 7 is pretty substantial because Nexus rebuys itself and doesn't require additional mana to EOT in the matches that go so incredibly long. Ionize + Sabotage is brutal for Chromium and I see a good amount of UR Control on Arena - far more than I see any other kind of Control deck.
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I'm sorry, but Chromium, the Mutable can't be countered... It's also really hard to kill with spot removal. It's a good finisher. Maybe slow to drop, but also a fast clock
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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I think it's somewhere in the middle. Trash compared to Gearhulk, but most things are. I feel the 3 toughness is what makes it mediocre. Its stats are just bad enough to never be impressive in combat. If you're playing a second color, there's something better, no matter what that color is. Mono-blue? Awesome.
On Chromium, the Mutable, I dropped this card. I liked the idea of it, but boy did it feel bad tapping mana for it on the rare chance I was stable on 7. My games with Lyra Dawnbringer were much more stable.
I don't understand the problem with "tapping" for Chromium, The Mutable, he haves flash so that is not a problem. I would argue that a 7 CMC is the real issue in this kinda fast meta.
I don't know if the mana is good enough to support Settle the Wreckage turn 4 consistently so that could be a problem.
Because vs decks that go to the length where tapping 7 EOT is a thing, often times it was draw go and they just countered it. He had to be safely cast on turn 10 if I wanted him to somewhat reliably resolve.
The game really should not go that long, and your finishers shouldn't be taking that long to drop. Tapping 7 for Chromium felt bad unless I had backup mana for counter magic. The difference between something like Chromium costing 7 and something like Nexus costing 7 is pretty substantial because Nexus rebuys itself and doesn't require additional mana to EOT in the matches that go so incredibly long. Ionize + Sabotage is brutal for Chromium and I see a good amount of UR Control on Arena - far more than I see any other kind of Control deck.
Hi guys, I’ve been reading this topic since the thread was started and created an account to chime in/solicite advise. I’ve been playing esper since last standard rotation and am a newer player but I’ve been fiddling around and came to many of the same conclusions you guys have. Chemister’s insight is definitely better than notion rain; Ritual of Soot is suboptimal, but 2 white sources are hard to come by on t4 right now... it’s a tough spot to be in at times.
One thing I don’t see mentioned as an alternative to Lyra, and can be quite powerful with surveil support is Twilight Prophet. I currently am lacking the WCs to get Chromium and a few other pieces and have been running 2x Twilight Prophet, and it’s a lot easier to satisfy the BB than it is to get the WW for Lyra. You can Surveil lands out of the way and get lifegain. I’ve had a lot of success stabilizing the board with this card. Thoughts?
So, I've been playing this a lot online since Guilds was released. Here are some of the questions that I will seek guidance/input on and some comments on specific experiences with a fairly straight-forward list:
Win-Cons / Finishers:
Chromium, the Mutable - Good. It surprises me how often I can afford to have it clogging my hand from the start and I still cast it. 3 turns later, you pretty much win. I am certainly open to replacing with an alt-win-con, but online (at least) a finisher is needed.
Dead Weight - Good. Feels underwhelming and sorcery speed is never fun. It meets the cheap requirement.
Cast Down - Very good. Keeps the curve low and answers pretty much anything.
Murder - Very good. A little more expensive, but addresses Legendary.
Vraska's Contempt - Very good. Seems obvious as a universal answer and lifegain is quite relevant.
Moment of Craving - I'm not a fan. My experience has been that it's either not enough or I'm looking for a 2-for-1.
Ritual of Soot - Awesome. I'm very high on this as it feels 90% of the format right now seems to die to this. It feels very bad, though, using early spot removal waiting for it...
The Eldest Reborn - Good. It feels more like a trick and would be much better vs control than aggro or mid-range (except that it costs 5).
Vona's Hunger - Haven't played it. Green decks are not big online right now and I haven't seen a need yet.
Price of Fame - Haven't played it. I'm not much of one to try a lot of 1-ofs and I feel like this is a sideboard card at best - there just isn't room...
Counters:
Essence Scatter - Good. It does what it needs to, of course.
Syncopate - I initially hated these and would still love to drop them, but they do solve some unique problems. They are good early (obv.) and terrible later on when you really need counters as you move to the late game. Standard isn't a format where anyone is cheating mana.
Disdainful Stroke - Meh... This is an obviously efficient answer to a costly spell, but... most of the format is pretty low to the ground right now. It answers 2 cards in the red deck (7/75) and a few more in the angels deck (very few that wouldn't be answered with Essence Scatter, though). I feel like this is sideboard material at best.
Radical Idea - Added this for an early draw. meh...
Notion Rain - Hated it. Between the sorcery speed and life loss, this was terrible vs aggro when you couldn't afford it and stabilizing at 2-5 life with 2-3 of these in hand just feels very bad...
Watery Grave - The best land in the deck. This turns on every check land and is the auto turn 1 play.
Field of Ruin - Good, but I used mostly to fix my mana rather than destroy a problematic land on my opponent's side.
Detection Tower - Good. I switched to this from Field and prefer it.
Surprises:
Without Chromium, if your opponent doesn't just scoop to Teferi online, you lose. You have no way to deck them before yourself (you have so much draw compared to most decks) and no way to shuffle your library. In paper, you can go to time - online the chess clock only hurts you. You have to play a win-con online.
Chemister's Insight is very slow. 8 mana and 2 cards to draw 4 (Opportunity was only 6 mana and 1 card). Yes, this is split over 2 turns, but it requires you to draw a throw-away... I don't want to draw a throw-away...
Obviously, the deck is putting up some early results, so the cards choices can work. The question is can it be better, right? Here is my next test list:
One thing I forgot to mention, I’m currently Running x1 enhanced surveillance and 1x disinformation campaign and sideboarding in during control matches. The longer a game goes, the more value you get out of these cards and the ability to exile enhanced surveillance to get everything back from your graveyard SEEMS like it can be useful at times and turning a surviel 1 into 3 means you can dig faster especially when combined with azcanta. Is it worth it? I’m not sure. It seems effective when it comes up though.
With a quite a few decks posting 5-0s or doing well in PTQs and SCG events in the past week, I grabbed all the lists and compiled an aggregate list. For those unfamiliar with this, it's basically an "average" deck list, but weighted a little differently. It's not surprising that it's a Frank Karsten method... Instead of averaging the total number of cards in a deck (e.g. deck 1 plays 4 Teferi, deck 2 plays 3 = average is 3.5 Teferi), it gives each card its own value (so in the example, you'd be getting 3 Teferi plus some other common card).
Using Evolving Wilds and Field of Ruin as fetches, the mana base gives 18.5U/17.5B/11.5W, which according to Karsten's article this week, is just enough to cover the T3 UU (18 recommended), T4 BB (16 recommended), and plenty for Teferi (10W and 10U needed). Interestingly, 12 sources is the number needed to get 90% to cast a 3CC spell, so this mana base is borderline good for a Cleansing Nova or two, and 80% for a Settle, and that's before you count the reduction from Surveil and card draw...
So, I've been playing this a lot online since Guilds was released. Here are some of the questions that I will seek guidance/input on and some comments on specific experiences with a fairly straight-forward list:
Win-Cons / Finishers:
Chromium, the Mutable - Good. It surprises me how often I can afford to have it clogging my hand from the start and I still cast it. 3 turns later, you pretty much win. I am certainly open to replacing with an alt-win-con, but online (at least) a finisher is needed.
Dead Weight - Good. Feels underwhelming and sorcery speed is never fun. It meets the cheap requirement.
Cast Down - Very good. Keeps the curve low and answers pretty much anything.
Murder - Very good. A little more expensive, but addresses Legendary.
Vraska's Contempt - Very good. Seems obvious as a universal answer and lifegain is quite relevant.
Moment of Craving - I'm not a fan. My experience has been that it's either not enough or I'm looking for a 2-for-1.
Ritual of Soot - Awesome. I'm very high on this as it feels 90% of the format right now seems to die to this. It feels very bad, though, using early spot removal waiting for it...
The Eldest Reborn - Good. It feels more like a trick and would be much better vs control than aggro or mid-range (except that it costs 5).
Vona's Hunger - Haven't played it. Green decks are not big online right now and I haven't seen a need yet.
Price of Fame - Haven't played it. I'm not much of one to try a lot of 1-ofs and I feel like this is a sideboard card at best - there just isn't room...
Counters:
Essence Scatter - Good. It does what it needs to, of course.
Syncopate - I initially hated these and would still love to drop them, but they do solve some unique problems. They are good early (obv.) and terrible later on when you really need counters as you move to the late game. Standard isn't a format where anyone is cheating mana.
Disdainful Stroke - Meh... This is an obviously efficient answer to a costly spell, but... most of the format is pretty low to the ground right now. It answers 2 cards in the red deck (7/75) and a few more in the angels deck (very few that wouldn't be answered with Essence Scatter, though). I feel like this is sideboard material at best.
Radical Idea - Added this for an early draw. meh...
Notion Rain - Hated it. Between the sorcery speed and life loss, this was terrible vs aggro when you couldn't afford it and stabilizing at 2-5 life with 2-3 of these in hand just feels very bad...
Watery Grave - The best land in the deck. This turns on every check land and is the auto turn 1 play.
Field of Ruin - Good, but I used mostly to fix my mana rather than destroy a problematic land on my opponent's side.
Detection Tower - Good. I switched to this from Field and prefer it.
Surprises:
Without Chromium, if your opponent doesn't just scoop to Teferi online, you lose. You have no way to deck them before yourself (you have so much draw compared to most decks) and no way to shuffle your library. In paper, you can go to time - online the chess clock only hurts you. You have to play a win-con online.
Chemister's Insight is very slow. 8 mana and 2 cards to draw 4 (Opportunity was only 6 mana and 1 card). Yes, this is split over 2 turns, but it requires you to draw a throw-away... I don't want to draw a throw-away...
Obviously, the deck is putting up some early results, so the cards choices can work. The question is can it be better, right? Here is my next test list:
As I said, I'm looking to compare my experiences with what others are seeing and experiencing currently. I'd love to hear feedback. Thanks!
It sounds like you don't know how to play teferi. If you have teferi online, you can't deck. Use his -3 ability to target himself. Now you have a card in your library. Then you redraw it and do it again. Voila! You can't deck out.
It sounds like you don't know how to play teferi. If you have teferi online, you can't deck. Use his -3 ability to target himself. Now you have a card in your library. Then you redraw it and do it again. Voila! You can't deck out.
He's talking about doing that within the context of the MTGO clock. He obviously knows how to do it, but the issue is that because your time is counted separately from your opponent's and not as the round as a whole, you can't afford to "go to time" online because you lose by default. Hence, needing an actual win condition that doesn't take 25 turns.
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Post Ravnica Allegiance Type 2 - WUB Control
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
It sounds like you don't know how to play teferi. If you have teferi online, you can't deck. Use his -3 ability to target himself. Now you have a card in your library. Then you redraw it and do it again. Voila! You can't deck out.
Sorry, I probably didn't state that correctly. Online, you have to make all the key strokes / clicks and if your opponent doesn't scoop, you have to keep playing. To deck a player, you are looking at 30+ turns of clicking... You don't win 1-0 when you time out, you lose 1-2...
So, played my Nexus control list last night, and things didn't go well. Two UR and one R matchup in 4 rounds... Conclusions I came to:
Chemister's Insight was slow, borderline bad, certainly in the Izzet and R match ups. I'm almost tempted with Discovery // Dispersal - cheap, flexible, sees three cards, and fuels Search. Down side is sorcery speed, but if we're waiting until T4 at least, chances are we can still hold up some form of counter magic.
Disdainful Stroke is bad in general. Main things that we are wanting to counter are Teferis and other walkers (so add more Negate), or large stompies (so add Essence Scatter).
Chromium is slow, but a useful wincon. The one round I didn't face an R(x) deck, I somehow managed to keep shuffling Chromium to the bottom, so had to literally empty my library to get him out.
Ritual of Soot is worth considering, but what benefit does that have over Golden Demise and/or Phyrexian Scriptures? Demise is going to be good against most of the red aggro lists, and comes out one turn sooner, and Scriptures catches more in the GB match up. Also good with Chapter 3 wiping out Undergrowth reliance.
The mana seems to be close to OK for Settle the Wreckage and/or Cleansing Nova. I ran one of each, and only once did I have to hold on to Settle for a couple of turns.
The deck needs another wincon. Pre-rotation, a couple of Gearhulks had crept in to some lists. We may want to consider a couple of copies of Thief of Sanity, Doom Whisperer, Dream Eater or similar just to get a better clock (and maybe a few more flying blockers for Drake decks). Maybe two Whisperers main, 2-3 Thieves in the side?
Not surprisingly, Arguel's Blood Fast is bad when you're all you're facing is red based decks. If your meta is predominantly Izzet and red, you can probably shave this entirely. It may also be that Thief of Sanity is better vs control anyway.
Is it worth transitioning to more of a tap-out style rather than draw-go? Our sweepers are sorcery speed, the most efficient draw spells are sorcery speed (Notion Rain, Discovery), and playing a few more creatures...
I'm surprised you guys are so down on Disdainful Stroke. I like it a lot as a flex counter that can be a pseudo-Negate or a pseudo-Essence Scatter and helps save sideboard slots. If you have, for example, 2 each of Negate/Disdainful Stroke/Essence Scatter, then if a deck has big creatures you bring in 2 Essence Scatter + 2 Disdainful Stroke, while if they have big non-creature threats you bring in 2 Negate + 2 Disdainful Stroke. You get the utility of 4 Negate and 4 Essence Scatter in the sideboard but only use 6 slots.
There are also a few matchups where Disdainful Stroke is just better. The Golgari grind-em-out deck plays a fairly even mix of creature and non-creature 4+ drops.
Beat Mono-Red, Boros, and GW Tokens. My losses? Green. Specifically, Carnage Tyrant. It may sound simple, but I feel like if I was just "greedy" and ran Cleansing Nova, I would have made Top 8 with ease, and possibly won. I am going to replace the SB Ritual Of Soot and one other for 2 Nova. If I could have dealt with the Tyrants, I could have won both of those matches. I later realized I didn't need it turn 5, I only needed it to kill Tyrants.
Also, Thief Of Sanity is insane. My new favorite. The game I won in one of the losses, I made an emblem with his Vivien Reid after trading a Thief and Vona for a Tyrant, then resolving an indestructible, 4\4 Thief and casting one more of his creatures. Just absurd. Do yourself a favor and play them in your sideboard.
Thought erasure is a great answer to the cards that we have a tough time against, I.E. Carny T. I have been running 4 maindeck and they're outstanding against everything besides dedicated aggro decks. They're even good against burn, since that will be 3 less damage coming at your face.
I got 2x Chromatic Lantern from packs on Arena and have been playtesting with 25 lands rather than the 26 I usually run. When you get one early, it feels really strong.
Thoughts?
Edit: I’m running the standard land set with only 1 field of ruin. Minus one chapel, plus 2 chromatic lanterns
What are you guys' thoughts on having two Meandering River in an Esper list to make double white more consistently cast?
I'd like to have two Settle main deck, access to Lyra, Cleansing Nova and stuff like that.
So this is an Esper control list with reanimation finish via Connive/Concoct and The Eldest Reborn and elegant reliance on Surveil mechanic to setup the reanimation. Connive steals Aurelia, Exemplar of Justice, Legion Warboss and Thief of Sanity, while giving you a reanimate next to The Eldest Reborn with the Concoct part. Zetalpa, Primal Dawn is used to have something that kills Chromium, the Mutable that doesn't die to sweepers and can pressure with vigilance. I chose against Nezahal, Primal Tide because I feel that it is easy enough to answer by other decks and in the control mirror I can simply rinse and repeat Disinformation Campaign a few times. Sort of a meta call though. Perhaps 1 should be in the sideboard.
If you're facing a lot of control, you can put Expansion // Explosion in the sideboard to Twincast an opposing Chemister's Insight or use it as a protective counter (No need to run Explosion and muddy the manabase).
Connive // Concoct just got a lot better given that fish became a real deck. You can use it to steal an unblockable creature with an curious obsession on it, provided they don't have a counter or a Deep Dive. Any ideas on how to shore that up? More Dead Weight or Hostage Taker?
Played with my Esper deck last night at my local FNM (Yes... standard FNM is on Wednesdays here) and got my ass handed to me pretty bad hehe. Went 2-3.
I kinda knew it would be wonky and underpowered compared to the top decks, I just really wanted to throw some counter spells around again, so I went for it.
Tried to kinda mimic my pre rotation Esper Control deck that I loved playing with, but man I miss gearhulks, fatal push and scarab god. Some people looked like I had punched their child in the face when I said that lol.
Anyway, just a few thoughts other than hte obvious "no Hallowed Fountain, no Gearhulks" and stuff like that.
Chromium is still ******* badass. Just make sure you have some removal for a bigger Crackling Drake...... But other than that, Chromium is seriously one of my favourite cards. So strong and VERY hard to kill.
Doing the "I only have 6 mana, so untap with teferi with some mana floating to cast Chromium" is seriously nasty!
Everytime I drew a Moment of Craving (Had two in the main deck) I would rather have a Cast Down (which I also had two of in the main deck) I oretty much think having 4 main deck Cast Down would be good in this meta. It's such a good card. Just save your contempts for the planeswalkers and niv mizzets and stuff like that.
Thief of Sanity is absolutely insane. I had 4 in my sideboard. I used to have 4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner and would sort of change my deck to a midrange'esque deck against control matches and UB midrange decks, so I like having a bit more creatures than normal control decks I guess.
Anyway. The best play I made was having a Thief of Sanity out on turn 3 against a sultai control/superfriends/ramp deck I went 1-2 against.
I snatched 2 Nexus of fate, 1 Thief of Sanity and 1 Vraska Relic Seeker.
Flashed Chromium in at the end of his turn and started beating him down and then nexus of fate at the end of my turn lol! It was ******* crazy.
That was a fun match because we both had a round where we totally went off, and then game three I only got two lands lol.
Anyway... not much constructive to add. Just sharing some thoughts. I can't wait for Azorious to be released and hopefully get some more power for the deck
Probably going to go back to my golgari with blue splash deck again until the next set, I just really miss playing control.
I will say that I lose most often to awkward mana at the beginning of the game. A hand with 3 comes-into-play tapped lands is a recipe for disaster even if they are in the perfect colors. You are definitely soft to hyper aggro and mono-red's reach is about the worst it can get. Boros and mono-white depend largely on whether or not they can rebuild quickly after a wrath effect. Drakes is almost a bye. Jeskai comes down to Though Erasure and who sticks a Teferi, Hero of Dominaria first or if they get Niv online before you have an effective answer.
I've had 2 opponents make me play out inevitable games - 1 time it was (on Arena) 22 turns of beatdown with a Dusk Legion Zealot (the best he had for reanimation) with each turn being draw Nexus of Fate, cast Nexus, attack with DLZ, take the next turn against an empty board... The 2nd was 4 whacks with a reanimated Doom Whisperer with the win coming with 24 seconds left on the clock (on MTGO) and my opponent saying I needed to play a better deck since I couldn't win quickly.
A couple of other notes - I probably play Cleansing Nova as often or more often for artifacts/enchantments compared to the creature wipe mode. Detection Tower is probably a worthwhile addition either main or in the board. Search for Azcanta plus surveil is quite good. Discovery // Dispersal at sorcery speed is totally worth the turn if you have Azcanta in play or in hand. Thought Erasure is very underplayed in my opinion. DeMars refers to it as a "2-mana Thoughtseize with upside" and he's not far off. Being able to rip an uncounterable card, a counter, or anything and then fix your draw is quite powerful.
I'm not as convinced that the next block is going to turn this into a completely broken archetype as I think there are a lot of decks which will emerge or get stronger with better mana. I do think that the perception that this deck has 'bad mana' and isn't playable right now is probably a bit over-stated. Ideally, you want double blue first (Sinister Sabotage), and then you want double black or double white, but it really depends on the match-up. I like double white because people will play around Settle the Wreckage and Time Walk themselves often times. Double black is probably more important for the Vraska's Contempt.
Any new ideas or tech to consider (or create any conversation here...)?
Round 1 - Mono Red Goblins L 1-2 (Stuck on the 3 lands in opening hand despite T2 Search with Ritual, Ritual, Contempt in hand...)
Round 2 - Mono White Aggro W 2-0
Round 3 - Jeskai Control W 2-0
Round 4 - Golgari Midrange W 2-0
Round 5 - Izzet Phoenix W 2-1
Top 8 - Sweet, Sweet Revenge From Round 1 - 2-1
Top 4 - White Aggro with Red Splash - W 2-0
Finals - UR Drakes with Quasiduplicate - W 2-1
I'm not great on details, I don't take notes, but I'll answer all reasonable questions. Fire away.
I'll ask... I've been playing similar on MTG Arena for a while now and it's probably a much different meta, but I'd love to know a few things or at least get your opinions...
1) How did you feel about Ritual of Soot? Do you feel you could support white sweepers by including Treasure Map?
Because vs decks that go to the length where tapping 7 EOT is a thing, often times it was draw go and they just countered it. He had to be safely cast on turn 10 if I wanted him to somewhat reliably resolve.
The game really should not go that long, and your finishers shouldn't be taking that long to drop. Tapping 7 for Chromium felt bad unless I had backup mana for counter magic. The difference between something like Chromium costing 7 and something like Nexus costing 7 is pretty substantial because Nexus rebuys itself and doesn't require additional mana to EOT in the matches that go so incredibly long. Ionize + Sabotage is brutal for Chromium and I see a good amount of UR Control on Arena - far more than I see any other kind of Control deck.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
I think it's somewhere in the middle. Trash compared to Gearhulk, but most things are. I feel the 3 toughness is what makes it mediocre. Its stats are just bad enough to never be impressive in combat. If you're playing a second color, there's something better, no matter what that color is. Mono-blue? Awesome.
Chromium can't be countered.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
One thing I don’t see mentioned as an alternative to Lyra, and can be quite powerful with surveil support is Twilight Prophet. I currently am lacking the WCs to get Chromium and a few other pieces and have been running 2x Twilight Prophet, and it’s a lot easier to satisfy the BB than it is to get the WW for Lyra. You can Surveil lands out of the way and get lifegain. I’ve had a lot of success stabilizing the board with this card. Thoughts?
Win-Cons / Finishers:
Chromium, the Mutable - Good. It surprises me how often I can afford to have it clogging my hand from the start and I still cast it. 3 turns later, you pretty much win. I am certainly open to replacing with an alt-win-con, but online (at least) a finisher is needed.
Teferi, Hero of Dominaria - Obvious
Removal:
Dead Weight - Good. Feels underwhelming and sorcery speed is never fun. It meets the cheap requirement.
Cast Down - Very good. Keeps the curve low and answers pretty much anything.
Murder - Very good. A little more expensive, but addresses Legendary.
Vraska's Contempt - Very good. Seems obvious as a universal answer and lifegain is quite relevant.
Moment of Craving - I'm not a fan. My experience has been that it's either not enough or I'm looking for a 2-for-1.
Ritual of Soot - Awesome. I'm very high on this as it feels 90% of the format right now seems to die to this. It feels very bad, though, using early spot removal waiting for it...
The Eldest Reborn - Good. It feels more like a trick and would be much better vs control than aggro or mid-range (except that it costs 5).
Vona's Hunger - Haven't played it. Green decks are not big online right now and I haven't seen a need yet.
Price of Fame - Haven't played it. I'm not much of one to try a lot of 1-ofs and I feel like this is a sideboard card at best - there just isn't room...
Counters:
Essence Scatter - Good. It does what it needs to, of course.
Sinister Sabotage - Good. Surveil is a great control mechanic.
Syncopate - I initially hated these and would still love to drop them, but they do solve some unique problems. They are good early (obv.) and terrible later on when you really need counters as you move to the late game. Standard isn't a format where anyone is cheating mana.
Disdainful Stroke - Meh... This is an obviously efficient answer to a costly spell, but... most of the format is pretty low to the ground right now. It answers 2 cards in the red deck (7/75) and a few more in the angels deck (very few that wouldn't be answered with Essence Scatter, though). I feel like this is sideboard material at best.
Negate - Again, good, but not overwhelmingly so.
Draw -
Opt - Haven't played except in early lists. Seemed alright.
Anticipate - Haven't played much. Seemed ok.
Radical Idea - Added this for an early draw. meh...
Notion Rain - Hated it. Between the sorcery speed and life loss, this was terrible vs aggro when you couldn't afford it and stabilizing at 2-5 life with 2-3 of these in hand just feels very bad...
Chemister's Insight - Good but very slow.
Lands:
Watery Grave - The best land in the deck. This turns on every check land and is the auto turn 1 play.
Field of Ruin - Good, but I used mostly to fix my mana rather than destroy a problematic land on my opponent's side.
Detection Tower - Good. I switched to this from Field and prefer it.
Surprises:
Without Chromium, if your opponent doesn't just scoop to Teferi online, you lose. You have no way to deck them before yourself (you have so much draw compared to most decks) and no way to shuffle your library. In paper, you can go to time - online the chess clock only hurts you. You have to play a win-con online.
Chemister's Insight is very slow. 8 mana and 2 cards to draw 4 (Opportunity was only 6 mana and 1 card). Yes, this is split over 2 turns, but it requires you to draw a throw-away... I don't want to draw a throw-away...
Obviously, the deck is putting up some early results, so the cards choices can work. The question is can it be better, right? Here is my next test list:
1x Chromium, the Mutable
Utility (3)
3x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Spells (30)
2x Spell Pierce
3x Dead Weight
4x Anticipate
2x Essence Scatter
3x Cast Down
2x Seal Away
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Sinister Sabotage
2x Chemister's Insight
3x Ritual of Soot
3x Vraska's Contempt
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Isolated Chapel
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Swamp
1x Plains
4x Island
1x Detection Tower
0x Negate
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Thief of Sanity
0x Thought Erasure
3x Duress
1x Vraska's Contempt
0x Ritual of Soot
2x The Eldest Reborn
1x Arguel's Blood Fast
0x Moment of Craving
0x Remorseful Cleric
2x Invoke the Divine
2x Shalai, Voice of Plenty
0x Ixalan's Binding
0x Vona, Butcher of Magan
As I said, I'm looking to compare my experiences with what others are seeing and experiencing currently. I'd love to hear feedback. Thanks!
1 Chromium, the Mutable
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Spells (28)
4 Chemister's Insight
4 Sinister Sabotage
3 Moment of Craving
3 Vraska's Contempt
3 Syncopate
3 Cast Down
3 Ritual of Soot
2 Essence Scatter
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Search for Azcanta
Land (27)
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
4 Glacial Fortress
1 Field of Ruin
4 Watery Grave
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Duress
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Invoke the Divine
1 The Eldest Reborn
2 Fungal Infection
2 Vona, Butcher of Magan
1 Moment of Craving
1 Negate
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Ritual of Soot
Using Evolving Wilds and Field of Ruin as fetches, the mana base gives 18.5U/17.5B/11.5W, which according to Karsten's article this week, is just enough to cover the T3 UU (18 recommended), T4 BB (16 recommended), and plenty for Teferi (10W and 10U needed). Interestingly, 12 sources is the number needed to get 90% to cast a 3CC spell, so this mana base is borderline good for a Cleansing Nova or two, and 80% for a Settle, and that's before you count the reduction from Surveil and card draw...
It sounds like you don't know how to play teferi. If you have teferi online, you can't deck. Use his -3 ability to target himself. Now you have a card in your library. Then you redraw it and do it again. Voila! You can't deck out.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
He's talking about doing that within the context of the MTGO clock. He obviously knows how to do it, but the issue is that because your time is counted separately from your opponent's and not as the round as a whole, you can't afford to "go to time" online because you lose by default. Hence, needing an actual win condition that doesn't take 25 turns.
States '09: 14th place. Aiming for better next year.
States '10: 12th place. Aiming for better next year.
Idaho State Champ: 2011
States '12: 5th place.
Sorry, I probably didn't state that correctly. Online, you have to make all the key strokes / clicks and if your opponent doesn't scoop, you have to keep playing. To deck a player, you are looking at 30+ turns of clicking... You don't win 1-0 when you time out, you lose 1-2...
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
There are also a few matchups where Disdainful Stroke is just better. The Golgari grind-em-out deck plays a fairly even mix of creature and non-creature 4+ drops.
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Field of Ruin
4 Island
4 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Syncopate
2 Essence Scatter
4 Sinister Sabotage
1 Negate
4 Chemister's Insight
2 Search For Azcanta
2 Cast Down
3 Moment Of Craving
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Ritual Of Soot
3 Teferi, Hero Of Dominaria
1 Chromium, The Mutable
2 The Eldest Reborn
1 Vona, Butcher Of Magan
3 Theif Of Sanity
1 Golden Demise
1 Ritual Of Soot
2 Invoke The Divine
1 Unmoored Ego
3 Thought Erasure
2 Disdainful Stroke
Beat Mono-Red, Boros, and GW Tokens. My losses? Green. Specifically, Carnage Tyrant. It may sound simple, but I feel like if I was just "greedy" and ran Cleansing Nova, I would have made Top 8 with ease, and possibly won. I am going to replace the SB Ritual Of Soot and one other for 2 Nova. If I could have dealt with the Tyrants, I could have won both of those matches. I later realized I didn't need it turn 5, I only needed it to kill Tyrants.
Also, Thief Of Sanity is insane. My new favorite. The game I won in one of the losses, I made an emblem with his Vivien Reid after trading a Thief and Vona for a Tyrant, then resolving an indestructible, 4\4 Thief and casting one more of his creatures. Just absurd. Do yourself a favor and play them in your sideboard.
I strongly recommend people try them.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
Thoughts?
Edit: I’m running the standard land set with only 1 field of ruin. Minus one chapel, plus 2 chromatic lanterns
I'd like to have two Settle main deck, access to Lyra, Cleansing Nova and stuff like that.
maindeck
4 Watery Grave
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Isolated Chapel
2 Swamp
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Detection Tower
4 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Chromium, the Mutable
1 Zetalpa, Primal Dawn
2 Connive // Concoct
2 The Eldest Reborn
3 Chemister's Insight
2 Search for Azcanta
3 Cast Down
1 Price of Fame
3 Seal Away
2 Settle the Wreckage
3 Discovery // Dispersal
3 Thought Erasure
4 Sinister Sabotage
2 Syncopate
1 Essence Scatter
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Arguel's Blood Fast
1 Disinformation Campaign
1 Moment of Craving
1 Vraska's Contempt
1 Cast Down
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Syncopate
2 Cleansing Nova
1 Negate
1 Golden Demise
2 Lyra Dawnbringer
1 The Eldest Reborn
So this is an Esper control list with reanimation finish via Connive/Concoct and The Eldest Reborn and elegant reliance on Surveil mechanic to setup the reanimation. Connive steals Aurelia, Exemplar of Justice, Legion Warboss and Thief of Sanity, while giving you a reanimate next to The Eldest Reborn with the Concoct part. Zetalpa, Primal Dawn is used to have something that kills Chromium, the Mutable that doesn't die to sweepers and can pressure with vigilance. I chose against Nezahal, Primal Tide because I feel that it is easy enough to answer by other decks and in the control mirror I can simply rinse and repeat Disinformation Campaign a few times. Sort of a meta call though. Perhaps 1 should be in the sideboard.
Against control mirror:
Board in Disinformation Campaign and Arguel's Blood Fast
Against Rekindling Phoenix and Risk Factor:
Board in Syncopate and Lyra Dawnbringer
If you're facing a lot of control, you can put Expansion // Explosion in the sideboard to Twincast an opposing Chemister's Insight or use it as a protective counter (No need to run Explosion and muddy the manabase).
Against Carnage Tyrant:
The dispersal part of Discovery // Dispersal, Settle the Wreckage, The Eldest Reborn, Detection Tower and just creating a bigger butt with Zetalpa, Primal Dawn, or Thought Erasure. Sideboard Cleansing Nova
I kinda knew it would be wonky and underpowered compared to the top decks, I just really wanted to throw some counter spells around again, so I went for it.
Tried to kinda mimic my pre rotation Esper Control deck that I loved playing with, but man I miss gearhulks, fatal push and scarab god. Some people looked like I had punched their child in the face when I said that lol.
Anyway, just a few thoughts other than hte obvious "no Hallowed Fountain, no Gearhulks" and stuff like that.
Chromium is still ******* badass. Just make sure you have some removal for a bigger Crackling Drake...... But other than that, Chromium is seriously one of my favourite cards. So strong and VERY hard to kill.
Doing the "I only have 6 mana, so untap with teferi with some mana floating to cast Chromium" is seriously nasty!
Everytime I drew a Moment of Craving (Had two in the main deck) I would rather have a Cast Down (which I also had two of in the main deck) I oretty much think having 4 main deck Cast Down would be good in this meta. It's such a good card. Just save your contempts for the planeswalkers and niv mizzets and stuff like that.
Thief of Sanity is absolutely insane. I had 4 in my sideboard. I used to have 4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner and would sort of change my deck to a midrange'esque deck against control matches and UB midrange decks, so I like having a bit more creatures than normal control decks I guess.
Anyway. The best play I made was having a Thief of Sanity out on turn 3 against a sultai control/superfriends/ramp deck I went 1-2 against.
I snatched 2 Nexus of fate, 1 Thief of Sanity and 1 Vraska Relic Seeker.
Flashed Chromium in at the end of his turn and started beating him down and then nexus of fate at the end of my turn lol! It was ******* crazy.
That was a fun match because we both had a round where we totally went off, and then game three I only got two lands lol.
Anyway... not much constructive to add. Just sharing some thoughts. I can't wait for Azorious to be released and hopefully get some more power for the deck
Probably going to go back to my golgari with blue splash deck again until the next set, I just really miss playing control.
EDIT:
4x Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
2x Search for Azcanta
3x Cast Down
3x Moment of Craving
3x Thought Erasure
4x Sinister Sabotage
3x Chemister's Insight
2x Ritual of Soot
3x Vraska's Contempt
1x Cleansing Nova
1x Eldest Reborn
3x Syncopate
1x Plains
5x Island
3x Swamp
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Isolated Chapel
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Watery Grave
2x Evolving Wilds
1x Field of Ruin
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=11439737#post11439737
Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
3 Swamp
4 Island
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Cast Down
2 Discovery // Dispersal
4 Thought Erasure
2 Essence Scatter
1 Negate
2 Search for Azcanta
3 Sinister Sabotage
2 Golden Demise
1 Settle the Wreckage
4 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 The Eldest Reborn
2 Cleansing Nova
1 Nexus of Fate
4 Chemister's Insight
2 Vraska's Contempt
Man is it fun to play.
I will say that I lose most often to awkward mana at the beginning of the game. A hand with 3 comes-into-play tapped lands is a recipe for disaster even if they are in the perfect colors. You are definitely soft to hyper aggro and mono-red's reach is about the worst it can get. Boros and mono-white depend largely on whether or not they can rebuild quickly after a wrath effect. Drakes is almost a bye. Jeskai comes down to Though Erasure and who sticks a Teferi, Hero of Dominaria first or if they get Niv online before you have an effective answer.
I've had 2 opponents make me play out inevitable games - 1 time it was (on Arena) 22 turns of beatdown with a Dusk Legion Zealot (the best he had for reanimation) with each turn being draw Nexus of Fate, cast Nexus, attack with DLZ, take the next turn against an empty board... The 2nd was 4 whacks with a reanimated Doom Whisperer with the win coming with 24 seconds left on the clock (on MTGO) and my opponent saying I needed to play a better deck since I couldn't win quickly.
A couple of other notes - I probably play Cleansing Nova as often or more often for artifacts/enchantments compared to the creature wipe mode. Detection Tower is probably a worthwhile addition either main or in the board. Search for Azcanta plus surveil is quite good. Discovery // Dispersal at sorcery speed is totally worth the turn if you have Azcanta in play or in hand. Thought Erasure is very underplayed in my opinion. DeMars refers to it as a "2-mana Thoughtseize with upside" and he's not far off. Being able to rip an uncounterable card, a counter, or anything and then fix your draw is quite powerful.
I'm not as convinced that the next block is going to turn this into a completely broken archetype as I think there are a lot of decks which will emerge or get stronger with better mana. I do think that the perception that this deck has 'bad mana' and isn't playable right now is probably a bit over-stated. Ideally, you want double blue first (Sinister Sabotage), and then you want double black or double white, but it really depends on the match-up. I like double white because people will play around Settle the Wreckage and Time Walk themselves often times. Double black is probably more important for the Vraska's Contempt.
Any new ideas or tech to consider (or create any conversation here...)?
4 Treasure Map
Planeswalker (4)
4 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
Creature (2)
1 Chromium, the Mutable
1 Dream Eater
Sorcery (3)
3 Ritual of Soot
Instant (23)
2 Cast Down
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Essence Scatter
3 Moment of Craving
1 Negate
4 Sinister Sabotage
2 Syncopate
4 Vraska's Contempt
2 Search for Azcanta
Land (26)
2 Detection Tower
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
2 Negate
2 Unmoored Ego
2 Vona, Butcher of Magan
1 Invoke The Divine
1 Fungal Infection
1 Chromium, The Mutable
2 The Eldest Reborn
3 Thief Of Sanity
1 Moment of Craving
Round 1 - Mono Red Goblins L 1-2 (Stuck on the 3 lands in opening hand despite T2 Search with Ritual, Ritual, Contempt in hand...)
Round 2 - Mono White Aggro W 2-0
Round 3 - Jeskai Control W 2-0
Round 4 - Golgari Midrange W 2-0
Round 5 - Izzet Phoenix W 2-1
Top 8 - Sweet, Sweet Revenge From Round 1 - 2-1
Top 4 - White Aggro with Red Splash - W 2-0
Finals - UR Drakes with Quasiduplicate - W 2-1
I'm not great on details, I don't take notes, but I'll answer all reasonable questions. Fire away.
1) How did you feel about Ritual of Soot? Do you feel you could support white sweepers by including Treasure Map?
2) Was Disdainful Stroke worth a maindeck slot?
3) No Thought Erasure in the 75? Would you consider it the next time out if you play this?
4) I've found the Golgari match-up to be build dependent. Was there anything special about that match you remember?