I guess its fair to note that a creatureless deck still needs to win, and ral plus burn plus explosion mill may not be enough. I suspect squee is your most resilient option despite being painfully slow. Otherwise you commit to a mix of nezahl, niv mizzet, and crackling drake and accept their drawbacks as the cost of having ways to actually end games quickly.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I guess its fair to note that a creatureless deck still needs to win, and ral plus burn plus explosion mill may not be enough. I suspect squee is your most resilient option despite being painfully slow. Otherwise you commit to a mix of nezahl, niv mizzet, and crackling drake and accept their drawbacks as the cost of having ways to actually end games quickly.
Just gonna say, I haven't been having a problem in this area. Between two large burn finishers, lots of incidental burn, Ral and Research. Feels like plenty, especially with the amount of your deck you get through drawing. I think it's plenty worth staying creatureless.
I guess its fair to note that a creatureless deck still needs to win, and ral plus burn plus explosion mill may not be enough. I suspect squee is your most resilient option despite being painfully slow. Otherwise you commit to a mix of nezahl, niv mizzet, and crackling drake and accept their drawbacks as the cost of having ways to actually end games quickly.
Just gonna say, I haven't been having a problem in this area. Between two large burn finishers, lots of incidental burn, Ral and Research. Feels like plenty, especially with the amount of your deck you get through drawing. I think it's plenty worth staying creatureless.
Do you feel like Firemind's Research holds a worthy place in the deck?
What does your current deck look like?
I was winning most of my games with nezahl personally. Your ability to burn someone out obviously depends on removal choices - im higher on lava coil and shivan fire than lightning strikes and shocks atm. I do play 2 copies of fight with fire but have yet to kick it
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Do you feel like Firemind's Research holds a worthy place in the deck?
What does your current deck look like?
First off, take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. My deck went in a VERY different direction from most others in here. I'm completely creatureless so (almost) every card fuels Research. I was highly skeptical at first too, but the results for me don't lie. I think it's a REALLY underrated card. It does so much work. And for me it does more work than the Azcantas it replaced.(And that's without even factoring in that Research isn't countered by land destruction or graveyard hate...both of which are very common atm)
If you wanna see my current decklist, it's posted a page back. Still tooling with the sideboard.
Hey y'all. Thanks for getting this thread started. I just went 5-1, 4-2, 2-2, and 5-1 in my last four Competitive Constructed events on Arena with this list. As you can see, it's been performing pretty well. Let me know if have any questions. I'm going to keep slowly iterating on it and putting it through the paces. I'm hopeful this deck is the real deal!
3 copies of sfa seems like a lot, and do you really need guildgates in a 2 colour deck with 8 other duals? Doesnt seem worth it.
Murmuring mystic is something nobody else has really touched on - I could see it since its a solid blocker and reasonably hard to kill but with 4 drakes this seems like a lot of tapping out on turn 4 opening a window for planeswalkers and vinemares to resolve.
I dont think the deck has to be creatureless but too many 4-6 mana spells seems like asking for trouble. Perhaps numbers could be adjusted there.
I also still swear by nezahl for control matches so would at least put one in the board. Niv is good but they can just justice strike or whatever and thats that.
I do find im torn a bit with making land drops for explosion and fwf vs keeping them in hand for jump start chemisters; so theres some tension there if you dont have dead-er cards to chuck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Usually there are some deader cards though. I run 4 fiery cannonades which are excellent Jump-start fodder in many matchups, as well as Radical Ideas which I often use to jump-start Chemister's Insight. I do not run Risk Factors in my version though - maybe I should do it for a more burn-oriented approach. The thing is that I noticed that Ral, if he ults, wins by itself and any previous damage is incosequential - you can burn the opponent from 30 hp in a single turn with the shocks, lightning strikes, mission briefings, radical ideas and so on. I think it's quite nice to be creatureless, and then bring the heavy hitters in from the sideboard. Possibly it would be nice to run an aggressive wizard shell (or midrange drakes shell) first game, and then go creatureless control in the later games, since a lot of spells don't change - you still want the shocks and lightning strikes and draw spells, you can just board out creatures for more countermagic and burn and perhaps some specific answers like detection tower+Ral/Beacon Bolt to kill Carnage Tyrants (or Star of Extinction :D). Vance's Blasting Cannons seem very nice versus slow decks too, as well as Azor's Gateway (but it's not so easy to get all 5 different CMC's exiled). Primal Talisman might actually be great here to make spells cheaper (and stay creatureless), and later copy those Explosions and Banefires, or even some less gamechanging spells. Mirari Conjecture seems nice too!
Shock, because it can burn walkers and players. Shivan Fire is good, but is completely dead vs teferi creatureless builds. Shock can finish off a Teferi who just tucked Ral or Firemind's Research. Second game you probably side them out anyway. Actually Risk Factors are very good in control matchups, they either take damage and that puts pressure on them, or give us three cards, or waste counters on it,leaving them at a disadvantage in future counter wars.
What about an alternative wincon? In this controlling shell we could easily run Naru Meha, Master Wizard. It is known from its combo potential with flickering spells for generating mana and drawing the library.
For those who want stay creatureless or who dont already know, Niv-Mizzet, Parun is an incredible card. Top 5 in Standard. If not second to Teferi.
Untapping with Niz can put the game away
Honestly, I think that running 4 of Sarkhan and Niv-Mizzet in this shell might be the way to go. Its really hard to beat a Turn 4 Niv. It is even harder to beat multiple Nivs.
Honestly, I think that running 4 of Sarkhan and Niv-Mizzet in this shell might be the way to go. Its really hard to beat a Turn 4 Niv. It is even harder to beat multiple Nivs.
The big reason not to go all in on the big guy is that BG runs approximately a million ways to deal with him game one (Chupacabra, Vivien Reed, Vraska's Contempt, Trophy, sometimes Harpooner) and BG is a big chunk of the meta right now. Pascal Maynard's recent Grixis Dragons video on CFB shows the car wreck that happens when you build around NM and get paired with BG.
The big reason not to go all in on the big guy is that BG runs approximately a million ways to deal with him game one (Chupacabra, Vivien Reed, Vraska's Contempt, Trophy, sometimes Harpooner) and BG is a big chunk of the meta right now. Pascal Maynard's recent Grixis Dragons video on CFB shows the car wreck that happens when you build around NM and get paired with BG.
That is the reason why I took the opposite approach and went creatureless. Ends up being a VERY good matchup(against what is, as you said, a big chunk of the meta right now), because they have so many cards that are straight up dead. Or they have cards that end up being VERY bad(Can't count the number of times people have Vraskas'd their own creatures in response to them being burned for the 2 life).
NM is amazing when hes good, but when hes not he hurts the deck strategy(at least mine). So I've been very happy just keeping him in the sideboard.
I've been running 2 Dive Down main and 2 Siren Stormtamer SB for this very reason. Dive Down is great against Golgari because it answers any of Trophy, Vraska -3, and Chupacabra for one mana. I'm on the drake plan, and so it answers Find // Finality, too. Stormtamer answers most of these, but also is insurance against The Eldest Reborn and Plaguecrafter.
Dive Down also is another answer against Boros when drakes go up against Aurelia or Lyra.
My biggest concern is that the card isn't doing anything in my hand a lot of the time, so I'm still evaluating. But so far it's gotten me plenty of blowouts.
The big reason not to go all in on the big guy is that BG runs approximately a million ways to deal with him game one (Chupacabra, Vivien Reed, Vraska's Contempt, Trophy, sometimes Harpooner) and BG is a big chunk of the meta right now. Pascal Maynard's recent Grixis Dragons video on CFB shows the car wreck that happens when you build around NM and get paired with BG.
That is the reason why I took the opposite approach and went creatureless. Ends up being a VERY good matchup(against what is, as you said, a big chunk of the meta right now), because they have so many cards that are straight up dead. Or they have cards that end up being VERY bad(Can't count the number of times people have Vraskas'd their own creatures in response to them being burned for the 2 life).
NM is amazing when hes good, but when hes not he hurts the deck strategy(at least mine). So I've been very happy just keeping him in the sideboard.
How are you burning people out when you also need burn spells to answer creatures? And no Expansion // Explosion.
How are you burning people out when you also need burn spells to answer creatures? And no Expansion // Explosion.
I'm gonna give a long answer to hopefully properly address this, and maybe some other things since you seem to have a lot of questions:
My deck is HARD control. It's slow, grindy, draw-go permission style. 99% of my game takes place on my opponent's turn. I am concerned with a series of 1 for 1s, having an answer for everything they throw, and then building incremental card advantage. Game 1 starts, I'm already ahead. Because a certain number of cards are complete blanks with me having no creatures. Which means assuming nothing else, if I just do 1 for 1s, I end up winning.
Then we have the actual active ways to get card advantage. Obvious ones like Chemister's Insight and Ral. But the biggest one for me personally, as you asked about earlier, is Firemind's Research. This is a 2-drop enchantment that just reads "Card Advantage." Think about it this way. Every time I play a card, I get half a card back. Once I realized through play that that's basically what it does, it wasnt a question of keeping it in the deck, but of how many(I'm up to 3). That thing is a monster. And then, of course, Jump-Start gets an honorable mention because it's pseudo-CA in the lategame pitching irrelevant cards(lands).
Then we have the actual burning. Which is pretty simple when you have extra cards to play with. Obviously Ral getting to 8 is an auto-win, but beyond that we have Browbeat 2.0. Which is normally just an 8-damage burn to the face at instant speed(The cards are a wash if you have Firemind's out, because the 2 casts nets you an extra card to pitch). Inescapable Blaze is a solid chunk of life for a single card, again at instant speed, and a great finisher versus control who have let themselves get low on Risk Factors. Especially if you have both and EOT one on their turn, untap, and cast the other. These are the big burners; and then you have incremental damage here and there from Ionize, maybe throwing a lategame Lightning Strike at their dome, Shocking them once instead of discarding down to 7(happens more than you might think, you get a lot of cards). And obviously when you aren't in the card buying business, Firemind's does have another ability that is relevant to this point.
Ok guys, any new developments? For now I am still running a creatureless list very similar to what was posted above. I tried playing Risk Factors, but they didn't prove very useful against the aggression in the meta. Golgari still is troublesome with all the recursion - even if I kill Carnage Tyrant once, he gets back to the board very quickly and I can't really imagine playing multiple Star of Extinctions in the deck which relies on planeswalkers. Niv-Mizzet,Parun is also laughably bad in the matchup, The Eldest Reborn and Ravenous Chupacabra are insanely good versus him. Basically what seems to be the only hope versus Carny T is the Detection Tower and Beacon Bolt or Ral, Izzet Viceroy allowing you to hit the dino multiple times. The problem is that then it's hard to deal with the Vraskas, which can be dropped after you tap out. Basically the only way seems to be firing multiple burn spells on them or killing them with Expansion // Explosion or Banefire.
I am still considering running Inescapable Blaze for instant speed strong burn, but it's very clunky at 6 mana. Fight with Fire and Explosion are much more versatile. Banefire is still of course very good out of the sideboard. Besides, I really like how Jaya Ballard performs and she has great synergy with sorcery spells. You can easily drop her and remove something with Lightning Strike or Fight with fire or cast Chemister's Insight for U. In later turns adding 3 to the X in explosions is just gravy. Also the ultimate just wins, barring some graveyard hate. Filtering up to 3 dead cards is also very good, and so is pitching some jump-start cards which are dead at the moment.
Adrian Sullivan wins GP Milwaukee defeating GB Midrange with his 4x main board Niv-Mizzet, Parun in his URW deck.
Reid Duke admits on camera that Niz is the best card in standard.
Welcome! We do our deck-specific discussion in relevant threads here rather than have everything in Standard Main. I will move this there. It might get you more feedback also. Thanks! - hoser2
Welcome! We do our deck-specific discussion in relevant threads here rather than have everything in Standard Main. I will move this there. It might get you more feedback also. Thanks! - hoser2
Hi Topsx, cool list. How does it go vs White Weenie and Boros Aggro with Adanto Vanguard?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
RWUMAGAUWR
C Long Live Eldrazi C
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Just gonna say, I haven't been having a problem in this area. Between two large burn finishers, lots of incidental burn, Ral and Research. Feels like plenty, especially with the amount of your deck you get through drawing. I think it's plenty worth staying creatureless.
What does your current deck look like?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
First off, take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. My deck went in a VERY different direction from most others in here. I'm completely creatureless so (almost) every card fuels Research. I was highly skeptical at first too, but the results for me don't lie. I think it's a REALLY underrated card. It does so much work. And for me it does more work than the Azcantas it replaced.(And that's without even factoring in that Research isn't countered by land destruction or graveyard hate...both of which are very common atm)
If you wanna see my current decklist, it's posted a page back. Still tooling with the sideboard.
2 Shock
3 Lightning Strike
3 Lava Coil
2 Fiery Cannonade
Counters
4 Sinister Sabotage
2 Ionize
Draw
3 Search for Azcanta
2 Blink of an Eye
3 Chemister's Insight
2 Murmuring Mystic
4 Crackling Drake
1 Dream Eater
1 Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Planeswalkers
3 Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Lands
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Izzet Guildgate
7 Mountain
7 Island
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Silent Gravestone
1 Firemind's Research
2 Essence Scatter
2 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Fiery Cannonade
2 Fight with Fire
1 Banefire
1 Niv-Mizzet, Parun
Murmuring mystic is something nobody else has really touched on - I could see it since its a solid blocker and reasonably hard to kill but with 4 drakes this seems like a lot of tapping out on turn 4 opening a window for planeswalkers and vinemares to resolve.
I dont think the deck has to be creatureless but too many 4-6 mana spells seems like asking for trouble. Perhaps numbers could be adjusted there.
I also still swear by nezahl for control matches so would at least put one in the board. Niv is good but they can just justice strike or whatever and thats that.
I do find im torn a bit with making land drops for explosion and fwf vs keeping them in hand for jump start chemisters; so theres some tension there if you dont have dead-er cards to chuck.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
What about an alternative wincon? In this controlling shell we could easily run Naru Meha, Master Wizard. It is known from its combo potential with flickering spells for generating mana and drawing the library.
Untapping with Niz can put the game away
C Long Live Eldrazi C
The big reason not to go all in on the big guy is that BG runs approximately a million ways to deal with him game one (Chupacabra, Vivien Reed, Vraska's Contempt, Trophy, sometimes Harpooner) and BG is a big chunk of the meta right now. Pascal Maynard's recent Grixis Dragons video on CFB shows the car wreck that happens when you build around NM and get paired with BG.
That is the reason why I took the opposite approach and went creatureless. Ends up being a VERY good matchup(against what is, as you said, a big chunk of the meta right now), because they have so many cards that are straight up dead. Or they have cards that end up being VERY bad(Can't count the number of times people have Vraskas'd their own creatures in response to them being burned for the 2 life).
NM is amazing when hes good, but when hes not he hurts the deck strategy(at least mine). So I've been very happy just keeping him in the sideboard.
Dive Down also is another answer against Boros when drakes go up against Aurelia or Lyra.
My biggest concern is that the card isn't doing anything in my hand a lot of the time, so I'm still evaluating. But so far it's gotten me plenty of blowouts.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I'm gonna give a long answer to hopefully properly address this, and maybe some other things since you seem to have a lot of questions:
My deck is HARD control. It's slow, grindy, draw-go permission style. 99% of my game takes place on my opponent's turn. I am concerned with a series of 1 for 1s, having an answer for everything they throw, and then building incremental card advantage. Game 1 starts, I'm already ahead. Because a certain number of cards are complete blanks with me having no creatures. Which means assuming nothing else, if I just do 1 for 1s, I end up winning.
Then we have the actual active ways to get card advantage. Obvious ones like Chemister's Insight and Ral. But the biggest one for me personally, as you asked about earlier, is Firemind's Research. This is a 2-drop enchantment that just reads "Card Advantage." Think about it this way. Every time I play a card, I get half a card back. Once I realized through play that that's basically what it does, it wasnt a question of keeping it in the deck, but of how many(I'm up to 3). That thing is a monster. And then, of course, Jump-Start gets an honorable mention because it's pseudo-CA in the lategame pitching irrelevant cards(lands).
Then we have the actual burning. Which is pretty simple when you have extra cards to play with. Obviously Ral getting to 8 is an auto-win, but beyond that we have Browbeat 2.0. Which is normally just an 8-damage burn to the face at instant speed(The cards are a wash if you have Firemind's out, because the 2 casts nets you an extra card to pitch). Inescapable Blaze is a solid chunk of life for a single card, again at instant speed, and a great finisher versus control who have let themselves get low on Risk Factors. Especially if you have both and EOT one on their turn, untap, and cast the other. These are the big burners; and then you have incremental damage here and there from Ionize, maybe throwing a lategame Lightning Strike at their dome, Shocking them once instead of discarding down to 7(happens more than you might think, you get a lot of cards). And obviously when you aren't in the card buying business, Firemind's does have another ability that is relevant to this point.
I am still considering running Inescapable Blaze for instant speed strong burn, but it's very clunky at 6 mana. Fight with Fire and Explosion are much more versatile. Banefire is still of course very good out of the sideboard. Besides, I really like how Jaya Ballard performs and she has great synergy with sorcery spells. You can easily drop her and remove something with Lightning Strike or Fight with fire or cast Chemister's Insight for U. In later turns adding 3 to the X in explosions is just gravy. Also the ultimate just wins, barring some graveyard hate. Filtering up to 3 dead cards is also very good, and so is pitching some jump-start cards which are dead at the moment.
Reid Duke admits on camera that Niz is the best card in standard.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Niv is thee best card in standard.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
https://youtu.be/Bn4iml56VE4
Welcome! We do our deck-specific discussion in relevant threads here rather than have everything in Standard Main. I will move this there. It might get you more feedback also. Thanks! - hoser2
C Long Live Eldrazi C