Anyone having any better success vs aggro? I’ve switched back to a more all in version but I’m still losing more to aggro then winning.
I really would love to play this at GPLA but I can’t unless I’ve got closer to 50/50 vs aggro as aggro is roughly 60% of the meta.
I saw Zan Syed running tempest and zahid in the board, not sure how well it works but I’m going to try that too.
Exclusion mage was not super impressive to me, aether meltdown was more effective.
Against Rx I've found Compass to do enough lifting. Against Flame of Keld it's absolutely crucial, and it also helps against the midrangy Rb builds even though the presence of discard spells means you're making yourself more vulnerable to flooding in a meaningful way.
I've faced a lot less Stompy on leagues than before so I don't have that much data to work with, but I'm still on Unsummons. I'm pretty happy with Padeem as well, Karn less so. I just can't seem to make him work for me, every time it feels like a win more card.
Been watching a lot of video's the last 4 weeks or so from both DiabloXSC as Tiemuuu (Hi Tiemuuu!) and I'm bringing the deck to GP Brussels this weekend. I'm still in the midst of figuring out what the SB should look like. The way I see it, aggro on a nut-draw ofc brings us a hard time, but can be winnable. Like most discussions I find, also here, Mono-G will give us a hard time no matter what they draw it seems.
So how do we play against Mono-G? More importantly, regarding the SB, do we find more value in Aether Meltdown shutting their big guys down, probably causing them to be unable to cast Ghalta since they lack the power to make his cost cheaper, or are we bouncing with Unsummon or Exclusion Mage, making them cast their creatures again and again, leaving a blocker and go for that way?
I'm not sold on The Antiquities War although I see others (Raphael Levy for example) boarding it in against RB, Grixis and Control decks. Is it really that good? I assume it's to overwhelm your opponent with the #3 on The Antiquities War where they lack answers to all of our attackers and dig+draw on the #1/#2 abilities?
Others I hear about Time of Ice, but that sounds even less impressive to me actually, especially Mono-G with Blossoming Defense, or is that just my feeling and the card is awesome?
I’m a fan of compass but I’ve had trouble with not drawing business spells. What are you siding out for them or are you on some main now?
Karn has been pretty good for me, in combo with sai I’ve had constructs big enough to kill ghalta and force them to answer the board while setting up the storm win. I also like that it is effectively another wincon and you can bounce it and cast it for free off statuary to get multiple constructs the same turn vs MGA if needed.
PVDDR played storm at PT25a and was running 2 main but also only running 2 expertise main.
I’m excited for GPLA because turbo fog will hopefully shift the Meta away from aggro temporarily and it might be a goo event for storm.
Been watching a lot of video's the last 4 weeks or so from both DiabloXSC as Tiemuuu (Hi Tiemuuu!) and I'm bringing the deck to GP Brussels this weekend. I'm still in the midst of figuring out what the SB should look like. The way I see it, aggro on a nut-draw ofc brings us a hard time, but can be winnable. Like most discussions I find, also here, Mono-G will give us a hard time no matter what they draw it seems.
So how do we play against Mono-G? More importantly, regarding the SB, do we find more value in Aether Meltdown shutting their big guys down, probably causing them to be unable to cast Ghalta since they lack the power to make his cost cheaper, or are we bouncing with Unsummon or Exclusion Mage, making them cast their creatures again and again, leaving a blocker and go for that way?
I'm not sold on The Antiquities War although I see others (Raphael Levy for example) boarding it in against RB, Grixis and Control decks. Is it really that good? I assume it's to overwhelm your opponent with the #3 on The Antiquities War where they lack answers to all of our attackers and dig+draw on the #1/#2 abilities?
Others I hear about Time of Ice, but that sounds even less impressive to me actually, especially Mono-G with Blossoming Defense, or is that just my feeling and the card is awesome?
Cheers,
DC
I like meltdown vs MGA. Unsummon seems good too but I like that meltdown is a more long term answer to an early threat. It’s a rough match up regardless since they have brontodon main plus fast threats and champion ignores almost all your creatures except construct tokens from Karn. If you live long enough rivers rebuke isn’t terrible either.
Wars is s great way to diversify threats post board and absolutely can win games and is hard for most decks to answer.
Anyone having any better success vs aggro? I’ve switched back to a more all in version but I’m still losing more to aggro then winning.
I really would love to play this at GPLA but I can’t unless I’ve got closer to 50/50 vs aggro as aggro is roughly 60% of the meta.
I saw Zan Syed running tempest and zahid in the board, not sure how well it works but I’m going to try that too.
Exclusion mage was not super impressive to me, aether meltdown was more effective.
Against Rx I've found Compass to do enough lifting. Against Flame of Keld it's absolutely crucial, and it also helps against the midrangy Rb builds even though the presence of discard spells means you're making yourself more vulnerable to flooding in a meaningful way.
I've faced a lot less Stompy on leagues than before so I don't have that much data to work with, but I'm still on Unsummons. I'm pretty happy with Padeem as well, Karn less so. I just can't seem to make him work for me, every time it feels like a win more card.
Anyone having any better success vs aggro? I’ve switched back to a more all in version but I’m still losing more to aggro then winning.
I really would love to play this at GPLA but I can’t unless I’ve got closer to 50/50 vs aggro as aggro is roughly 60% of the meta.
I saw Zan Syed running tempest and zahid in the board, not sure how well it works but I’m going to try that too.
Exclusion mage was not super impressive to me, aether meltdown was more effective.
Against Rx I've found Compass to do enough lifting. Against Flame of Keld it's absolutely crucial, and it also helps against the midrangy Rb builds even though the presence of discard spells means you're making yourself more vulnerable to flooding in a meaningful way.
I've faced a lot less Stompy on leagues than before so I don't have that much data to work with, but I'm still on Unsummons. I'm pretty happy with Padeem as well, Karn less so. I just can't seem to make him work for me, every time it feels like a win more card.
I have recently played with 19 lands, 4 Sais and more Reverse Engineers, but went back to list. I've had harder time winning since people have started to metagame for this deck on mtgo, although funnily I just won my second trophy with this list (MUs were Flame of Keld, 2x RB aggro, mono b zombies, uw gift).
Been watching a lot of video's the last 4 weeks or so from both DiabloXSC as Tiemuuu (Hi Tiemuuu!) and I'm bringing the deck to GP Brussels this weekend. I'm still in the midst of figuring out what the SB should look like. The way I see it, aggro on a nut-draw ofc brings us a hard time, but can be winnable. Like most discussions I find, also here, Mono-G will give us a hard time no matter what they draw it seems.
So how do we play against Mono-G? More importantly, regarding the SB, do we find more value in Aether Meltdown shutting their big guys down, probably causing them to be unable to cast Ghalta since they lack the power to make his cost cheaper, or are we bouncing with Unsummon or Exclusion Mage, making them cast their creatures again and again, leaving a blocker and go for that way?
I'm not sold on The Antiquities War although I see others (Raphael Levy for example) boarding it in against RB, Grixis and Control decks. Is it really that good? I assume it's to overwhelm your opponent with the #3 on The Antiquities War where they lack answers to all of our attackers and dig+draw on the #1/#2 abilities?
Others I hear about Time of Ice, but that sounds even less impressive to me actually, especially Mono-G with Blossoming Defense, or is that just my feeling and the card is awesome?
Cheers,
DC
Honestly, I have no clue how I should SB against Stompy. From my experience so many things can go wrong. Cards like Unsummon and Meltdown are great at slowing down the Steel Leaf nut draws, but are lacking against the more mediocre Scrounger/Champion draws where it would be better to have your g1 cards in instead. Padeem on the curve can be amazing, but it's a horrible topdeck when you are looking for immediate impact. River's Rebuke can turn a hopeless situation into a win, but is it too optimistic to assume that you can have your Statuary stick or that you survive until your turn 6?
I don't think lasting to turn 6 will happen a lot against Mono-G. That's why I'm unsure whether it should be played. That goes for a lot by the way when it comes to Mono-G. Or are we overthinking it and should Exclusion Mage/Aether Meltdown/Expertise be enough?
With your current SB, how do you board? Also, I see you went up to even 20 land main. Were you lacking a lot of land drops? Or is it perhaps because you'd rather keep map in play instead of saccing it to get your mana?
Hi, I think having a fast clock against Mono-G is fine, but usually they are a little faster, and a lot bigger. T2 Steel-Leaf is no rare sight. I think it really depends on having your bounces/shutdowns, or you lose on the spot at like t5.
Could I see your list? As you play Jhoira I'm curious as to what the list looks like. Doesn't the splash(?) for red make your deck inconsistent? Same goes for Baral, what did you cut to be able to play him? Doesn't he get in the way of setting up your combo? Just curious as I have no experience with either of the 2 in this deck.
I haven't played nearly as many matches as you have with the M19 version Tiemuu, but for me, the best cards vs Mono G have been Aether Meltdown and Karn. Meltdown neuters whatever thier best threat other than Galta and Karn just makes a giant roadblock. Most of the PT lists had 3-4 Karn main and very interesting, 2 people registered lists with 0 Reservoir in the 75.
Hi there, I have been testing Storm for a while and following all the streamers and this forum - thank for every insight everybody!
My experience with the monoG matchup is following:
- the best way to win is to go for the fast win, not to try to stall the game with situational answers: Sai cant stop Ghalta, Steel Leaf and Rhonas, Karn is soft to Hearth and other threats unless you have a Sai as well, Meltdown and Unsummon buys time but only a little and you need to gain advantage from the tempo gain (win fast)..
- only reliable answers are those catch all - Expertise and Rivers Rebuke (and Metallic Rebuke to some extend)
- the best way to win is to combo-off
For those reasons I start boarding the way to support combo and also to have access to the big spells (Expertise, Rebuke) at timely manner, which happens to go hand in hand.
The best card I found against monogreen is Jhoira, Captain of Weatherlight. She is absolute blast against deck, that cant remove her, as she makes deck so much better at comboing off. With her, the race is very real, because both decks are basically goldfishing.
Its also very nice to have 4x Expertise before you start adding spot removal, as it lets you get back to game while comboing with Jhoira as well. Rivers Rebuke is basically the 5th Expertise, if you find it neccessary.
To help everything go smoothly, I am adding Baral to the Mix (lets you cast your good spells turn earlier and activates Mox as well). With him + Mox, you can cast Expertise on turn 3 if needed.. and you are not so reliant to Statuary.
Playing this strategy gave me the best results so far and I made me feel comfortable with the matchup, because monoG cant ever beat my best openning while I could beat theirs. Anyway I think, that being just slightly favored is the most we can get.
I think this is probably close to the truth, and I've been thinking about siding less and being more focused in the post board games. I'm very close to pulling the trigger on Jhoira as well, even though I've always hated the idea of splashes.
So I've primarily been playing the UB Improvise deck w/ Herald etc. since Dominaria came out. How do you all think the decks compare? My take is that the core of the two decks is very similar, the main difference is the payoffs--is Outcome/Statuary/Aetherworks just better than Herald/Zahid/more PWs? The traditional Improvise deck does have a little more action on turns 1-3 (black removal, servos for blocking) but that doesn't make a huge difference once you get the Aetherworks lifegain online. Would prefer to play the UB list at an upcoming GP but hard to justify if it's strictly inferior...
Also, I can't help but feel like I'm missing something--I keep hearing that Sai is great in the mono-G matchup. But other than chumping HoK, he looks pretty useless to me. Can this deck go so wide with 0-drops and Outcome loops that you kill them with the thopters before getting trampled to death?
I hadn't considered that Sai enables legendary sorceries, that could definitely close out some games. May require dropping Herald, though; hitting both UU and BB is rough and I think Sundering really wants Statuary which is a bit underwhelming in the same deck as Herald. And once you're running Statuary you probably ought to go all the way with the Outcome/0-drop package and then you're back to Oliver's deck. Hmm.
Looks like maybe UB has room for a few more direct wincons for a more reliable early game while the U version leans on Statuary/Outcome shenanigans. Will have to play around with it a bit, there may be a way to squeeze Mox Amber into the UB list and enable playing both Herald and Sundering.
Hello everyone on this thread, i've been toying with this deck for a few weeks now and i'm in love with it is so much fun to play and quite refreshing in this standard season dominated by R/x decks.
My two cents about the mono green match-up is that your best cards in this match are Karn, aether meltdown, exclusion mage, baral expertise and padeem to protect your karn's tokens and reservoir. Your game plan is to win by stalling the board with sai's tokens and karn's tokens, reset their board with expertise and then proceed to win either by comboing with reservoir (hard to achieve) or kill them with tokens but you will most probably lose G1 anyway because you're poorly equiped to deal with steal-leef champion. Most of the time they cut blossoming defense post side in order to bring naturalize effects which is quite important to keep in mind.
I'd like to have people opinion on navigator compass : i find the card to be awful even in MU where it should be useful (red decks). I'd much rather have a 3rd reservoir in side because most red decks can't beat 2 reservoir on board even if you're not comboing off. Setting yourself at 30+ life is usually enough to beat them if you have some board presence. Only those hyper aggressive flame of keld decks are a bad match-up and those decks aren't very well positioned in the current meta. Most of my red decks opponents are on a more mid-range game plan and it seems as if no one is playing earthsaker khenra and ahn-crop trasher anymore. Against red decks you have to bring padeem in since they are starting to play by force in their sideboard.
I think this deck is very well positioned at the moment because it beats all Teferi decks as well as mid-range decks, has match vs all hyper aggressive decks. Worst match-up i've met so far was a UBw deck with duress, kitesail freebooter and doomfall, counter magic and gearhulk.
I don't like the 4 sai because they're legendary and having 2 in opening hand and drawing a 3rd in the first 5 turns is just awful. I think 3 is the correct number. The 2 karn MD have been marvelous : from turn 3 5/5 to a game vs mono-green deck where i had 3 19/19 tokens from a single karn played 3 times in a single turn. 99% of the time you're not that interested in its first 2 abilities and you'll go for the token. Having him MD allows you to attack on another angle and so messes with opponent sideboarding plans (turbo fog has to keep a few ways to deal with creatures, control can't cut all his removal, black decks can't cut all of their fatal pushes...)
I agree with Tiemuuu that the splash is bad even if jhoira seems quite good.I think Karn is far superior for the outcome version (free spell with statuary in play) and Jhoira is probably better than karn if you go the colossus way. And you can't play more 4 drops in the outcome version without cutting key cards. I'm not a fan of the black splash i've seen from the pro tour, battle at the bridge seems inferior to unsummon effect for me because unsummon can save a sai from chandra/glorybringer vs sorcery speed removal that will require setup to work but contraband kingpin looks like a decent card. Antiquities War is probably your most important sideboard card in the matches where you bring it in, it is that good of a card and i can't imagine a sideboard without it. It closes games fast when you need it and R/B/x decks have absolutely no way to interact with it.
I've found this deck to be a 4-1 machine on magic online. I made back the tickets I spent on Karns and then some in just a few days. I've been rolling with the Pruijt list:
4 Sai is the correct answer. He's the only creature you play that's worth killing and most decks will make it a point to kill him ASAP. Drawing two is always fine. Three can be a bit much, but you just want Sai as often as possible. He makes the deck work.
Karn is good. He gives us a blocker or speeds up our clock, and even card advantage mode is fine. The interaction with Sai + Statuary is sick. Using Outcome to get multiple Karn activations or to yank Karn out of the way of an attacker is also fun.
I haven't found the green matchup to be a total nightmare. Yeah, turn 2 steel leaf into pump into pump is game over. But if they don't get an elf or they don't get the steel leaf then we've got a good shot. Exclusion Mage and Aether Meltdown also do good work against them.
Against mono red (Ahn Crop Crasher edition) I have really liked the compass. It plays nicely with Paradoxical Outcome and nets you improvise mana with Sai. I find just relying on Reservoir to be too slow. Especially when they get the curve out + abrade draws.
The matchup that gives me fits is RB. The combination of a fast clock, targeted discard, and abrade is just brutal. I've tried the Antiquities War and have found it kind of medium. They have a lot of time to prepare for it and usually if you don't kill the turn it ultimates you die on the crackback. I'm not really sure what would be better against them. This matchup alone might be a good reason to try to red splash to just race them with Jhoira.
I agree with Tiemuuu that the splash is bad even if jhoira seems quite good.I think Karn is far superior for the outcome version (free spell with statuary in play) and Jhoira is probably better than karn if you go the colossus way. And you can't play more 4 drops in the outcome version without cutting key cards.
Karn is a good card but you cant realy compare it to Jhoira in the Outcome version.. Just an example of a difference between playing Jhoira and Karn, when the deck is comboing of
For me the discussion about Jhoira and Karn shows very nicely the approach to the deck. Karn version is similar to the (banned) CopyCat deck, that played a reasonable midrange game while threatening a combo win. Jhoira version is a true combo deck. I am not saying any version is better (though I prefer the combo version in bad matchups as monoG and mirror), but only want to show, that it is really hard to compare those 2 cards, as each one fills completaly different role.
That was some insane stuff happening right there hehe. Do you have a Jhoira list anywhere?
I don't think it's a good idea to try to beat RB in their own midrange game. I'f you're bringing in Karns in this MU, then why not just MD them? I'm also 99% sure you're never supposed to board in both compass and Karn in the same MU, it really looks like you're super unfocused. My plan, which I happen to like, is simply bringing in 2-3 Compasses (sometimes I bring in only 2 on the play). I cut the one Puzzleknot and Engineer I have, then the 3rd Expertise.
Again not big on Karn here. Grixis usually plays out like a tapout deck, and you actually need to respect their clock. Karns lines up very poorly against Bolas. I like Jace's Defeat and 3rd Commit from my own Board and SB nothing else, for reference.
Mono Green:
IN: 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, 2 Aether Meltdown, 1 Exclusion Mage, 2 Time of Ice, 1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
OUT: 2 Glint-Nest Crane, 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 2 Commit // Memory, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Mox Amber, 2 Metalspinner's Puzzleknot
GB Constrictor:
IN: 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, 1 Exclusion Mage, 2 Time of Ice, 1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
OUT: 2 Glint-Nest Crane, 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 1 Commit // Memory, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Metalspinner's Puzzleknot, 1 Mox Amber
Again I'm questioning the inclusion of Karn. Conctrictor has the ability to go WAY over the top with Ballistas and Gearhulks so I don't see the appeal of the midrange plan. In what kind of a game is Karn going to be in goldilocks zone between being winmore or do-nothing?
Mono U Storm:
IN: 3 Negate, 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
OUT: 2 Baral's Expertise, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Mox Amber
Mono Red:
IN: 2 Aether Meltdown, 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, 1 Time of Ice, 2 Navigator's Compass, 1 Exclusion Mage, 1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
OUT: 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 2 Metalspinner's Puzzleknot, 2 Commit // Memory, 3 Baral's Expertise, 1 Metallic Rebuke
Boarding Reservoir out here seems Egregious. I'm also not sure about going down to 0 Commits as the card gives you some relief against possible Abrades.
I agree with the Negates, but Exclusion Mage seems so out of place here. My advice is to board out 1-2 Expertises as they become very ineffective in the post board games.
Mono W/B:
IN: 2 Aether Meltdown, 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, 1 Exclusion Mage, 2 Time of Ice
OUT: 2 Glint-Nest Crane, 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 1 Mox Amber, 2 Commit // Memory, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Metalspinner's Puzzleknot
Thanks Tiemuuu, will take your notes into consideration. Most of the plan is based on the reddit topic about paradoxical outcome. The Karn boarding is mostly based on their advice.
For UW Gift, bouncing the tokens with either the Exclusion Mage or Expertise seems decent to me. Or do you think Expertise is too slow against GPG?
For Mono Red, I can see your reasoning, although I still keep 2 Reservoir in the main. Going for 0 Commit, it just feels like an expensive card in the mu, although I can understand it allows you to save your keypieces from dying to Abrade. What would you suggest as a plan here with the given main/side?
I'm hesitant to play Karn main, I can understand it's good but is that the way you want to go? If so, I assume you're going into a 2 Rservoir main plan? Karn is nuts don't take me wrong, but to me feels like it's more a card to transition to and not play as your main wincon, or am I just mistaken here?
Thanks for your input, appreciated. And you have a ton more experience with the deck than I have so happy to take on advice.
DC
I have yet to hear proper reasoning for why you would bring Karns in against almost every archetype yet not have them in your MD. People keep bringing up "sideboard hate" that people will bring against us, but what is that anyway? Everyone is already maindecking Abrades and Brontodons. Playing Karn against flying threats like Glorybringer seems insane to me.
Against GPG the post board games play out more like your games against UW control. They draw and filter, keep counters open, and target your statuaries. SB Teferis are the biggest issue. Your creatures can easily brickwall early aggression, what matters is winning the counter battles. For this reason Expertise becomes worse. My SB plan has been -1 Sai, -2 Crane, -2 Expertise, +3 negate +1 defeat +1 commit.
Against flame of keld/red(/b) aggro I board out the same way I do against RB: -1 puzzleknot, -1 reverse, -1 expertise, +3 Compass. Commit can be clunky, but it's also a 2-mana timetwister, and these draw effects supplement our plan which makes us lighter on action. Just my take on it. I have a pretty positive opinion of Commit in general.
Yeah you’re probably right about him against RB. After giving it some thought, it doesn’t really make sense to board him in. With Abrade nothing remains on the board, at least the crucial parts, and Glorybringers and Phoenixes just fly over. It indeed is a stupid idea, thanks for the eye opening.
Regarding Karn main it’s just that I have no experience with that angle. It can’t do harm to do it, and like you say if I’m boarding it in in most matchups why not just main board it? It’s like I said, your experience with the deck exceeds mine by far so I’m happy you’re there to discuss.
When I said you should play Karns in the MD I was using it as an argument for why it's probably incorrect to board Karn in so much. I'm not actually sure how good MD karns would be, but have no interest in testing it out either rn.
Karn is so good main some pros have eschewed reservoir all together and play mono u outcome around sai and Karn.
new gam podcast has Gerry Thompson and a Bryan both saying they are on the deck for GPLA. Bryan likes 1 reservoir as an extra out, Gerry apparently thinks it’s just s bad card and doesn’t like any and prefers to beat down with thopters and constructs.
CFB has posted a new PVDDR article about storm with his sideboard guide to his PT build and thoughts on it as well.
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I really would love to play this at GPLA but I can’t unless I’ve got closer to 50/50 vs aggro as aggro is roughly 60% of the meta.
I saw Zan Syed running tempest and zahid in the board, not sure how well it works but I’m going to try that too.
Exclusion mage was not super impressive to me, aether meltdown was more effective.
Basically (1) make your peace with losing to aggro nut draws, and (2) learn both decks inside and out so you can beat their non-nut draws.
Against Rx I've found Compass to do enough lifting. Against Flame of Keld it's absolutely crucial, and it also helps against the midrangy Rb builds even though the presence of discard spells means you're making yourself more vulnerable to flooding in a meaningful way.
I've faced a lot less Stompy on leagues than before so I don't have that much data to work with, but I'm still on Unsummons. I'm pretty happy with Padeem as well, Karn less so. I just can't seem to make him work for me, every time it feels like a win more card.
Youtube Channel
Been watching a lot of video's the last 4 weeks or so from both DiabloXSC as Tiemuuu (Hi Tiemuuu!) and I'm bringing the deck to GP Brussels this weekend. I'm still in the midst of figuring out what the SB should look like. The way I see it, aggro on a nut-draw ofc brings us a hard time, but can be winnable. Like most discussions I find, also here, Mono-G will give us a hard time no matter what they draw it seems.
So how do we play against Mono-G? More importantly, regarding the SB, do we find more value in Aether Meltdown shutting their big guys down, probably causing them to be unable to cast Ghalta since they lack the power to make his cost cheaper, or are we bouncing with Unsummon or Exclusion Mage, making them cast their creatures again and again, leaving a blocker and go for that way?
I'm currently holding this SB (1 open slot):
1x Aether Meltdown
1x Exclusion Mage
3x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Navigator's Compass
3x Negate
1x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1x Tezzeret, Artifice Master
2x The Antiquities War
I'm not sold on The Antiquities War although I see others (Raphael Levy for example) boarding it in against RB, Grixis and Control decks. Is it really that good? I assume it's to overwhelm your opponent with the #3 on The Antiquities War where they lack answers to all of our attackers and dig+draw on the #1/#2 abilities?
Others I hear about Time of Ice, but that sounds even less impressive to me actually, especially Mono-G with Blossoming Defense, or is that just my feeling and the card is awesome?
Cheers,
DC
Karn has been pretty good for me, in combo with sai I’ve had constructs big enough to kill ghalta and force them to answer the board while setting up the storm win. I also like that it is effectively another wincon and you can bounce it and cast it for free off statuary to get multiple constructs the same turn vs MGA if needed.
PVDDR played storm at PT25a and was running 2 main but also only running 2 expertise main.
I’m excited for GPLA because turbo fog will hopefully shift the Meta away from aggro temporarily and it might be a goo event for storm.
I like meltdown vs MGA. Unsummon seems good too but I like that meltdown is a more long term answer to an early threat. It’s a rough match up regardless since they have brontodon main plus fast threats and champion ignores almost all your creatures except construct tokens from Karn. If you live long enough rivers rebuke isn’t terrible either.
Wars is s great way to diversify threats post board and absolutely can win games and is hard for most decks to answer.
Any chance of seeing your current list?
https://puu.sh/B9xSv/75c6672370.png
I have recently played with 19 lands, 4 Sais and more Reverse Engineers, but went back to list. I've had harder time winning since people have started to metagame for this deck on mtgo, although funnily I just won my second trophy with this list (MUs were Flame of Keld, 2x RB aggro, mono b zombies, uw gift).
Youtube Channel
Honestly, I have no clue how I should SB against Stompy. From my experience so many things can go wrong. Cards like Unsummon and Meltdown are great at slowing down the Steel Leaf nut draws, but are lacking against the more mediocre Scrounger/Champion draws where it would be better to have your g1 cards in instead. Padeem on the curve can be amazing, but it's a horrible topdeck when you are looking for immediate impact. River's Rebuke can turn a hopeless situation into a win, but is it too optimistic to assume that you can have your Statuary stick or that you survive until your turn 6?
Youtube Channel
I don't think lasting to turn 6 will happen a lot against Mono-G. That's why I'm unsure whether it should be played. That goes for a lot by the way when it comes to Mono-G. Or are we overthinking it and should Exclusion Mage/Aether Meltdown/Expertise be enough?
With your current SB, how do you board? Also, I see you went up to even 20 land main. Were you lacking a lot of land drops? Or is it perhaps because you'd rather keep map in play instead of saccing it to get your mana?
Thanks,
DC
Could I see your list? As you play Jhoira I'm curious as to what the list looks like. Doesn't the splash(?) for red make your deck inconsistent? Same goes for Baral, what did you cut to be able to play him? Doesn't he get in the way of setting up your combo? Just curious as I have no experience with either of the 2 in this deck.
Thanks,
DC
Modern: UW Spirits
I think this is probably close to the truth, and I've been thinking about siding less and being more focused in the post board games. I'm very close to pulling the trigger on Jhoira as well, even though I've always hated the idea of splashes.
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Also, I can't help but feel like I'm missing something--I keep hearing that Sai is great in the mono-G matchup. But other than chumping HoK, he looks pretty useless to me. Can this deck go so wide with 0-drops and Outcome loops that you kill them with the thopters before getting trampled to death?
Looks like maybe UB has room for a few more direct wincons for a more reliable early game while the U version leans on Statuary/Outcome shenanigans. Will have to play around with it a bit, there may be a way to squeeze Mox Amber into the UB list and enable playing both Herald and Sundering.
My two cents about the mono green match-up is that your best cards in this match are Karn, aether meltdown, exclusion mage, baral expertise and padeem to protect your karn's tokens and reservoir. Your game plan is to win by stalling the board with sai's tokens and karn's tokens, reset their board with expertise and then proceed to win either by comboing with reservoir (hard to achieve) or kill them with tokens but you will most probably lose G1 anyway because you're poorly equiped to deal with steal-leef champion. Most of the time they cut blossoming defense post side in order to bring naturalize effects which is quite important to keep in mind.
I'd like to have people opinion on navigator compass : i find the card to be awful even in MU where it should be useful (red decks). I'd much rather have a 3rd reservoir in side because most red decks can't beat 2 reservoir on board even if you're not comboing off. Setting yourself at 30+ life is usually enough to beat them if you have some board presence. Only those hyper aggressive flame of keld decks are a bad match-up and those decks aren't very well positioned in the current meta. Most of my red decks opponents are on a more mid-range game plan and it seems as if no one is playing earthsaker khenra and ahn-crop trasher anymore. Against red decks you have to bring padeem in since they are starting to play by force in their sideboard.
I think this deck is very well positioned at the moment because it beats all Teferi decks as well as mid-range decks, has match vs all hyper aggressive decks. Worst match-up i've met so far was a UBw deck with duress, kitesail freebooter and doomfall, counter magic and gearhulk.
I don't like the 4 sai because they're legendary and having 2 in opening hand and drawing a 3rd in the first 5 turns is just awful. I think 3 is the correct number. The 2 karn MD have been marvelous : from turn 3 5/5 to a game vs mono-green deck where i had 3 19/19 tokens from a single karn played 3 times in a single turn. 99% of the time you're not that interested in its first 2 abilities and you'll go for the token. Having him MD allows you to attack on another angle and so messes with opponent sideboarding plans (turbo fog has to keep a few ways to deal with creatures, control can't cut all his removal, black decks can't cut all of their fatal pushes...)
I agree with Tiemuuu that the splash is bad even if jhoira seems quite good.I think Karn is far superior for the outcome version (free spell with statuary in play) and Jhoira is probably better than karn if you go the colossus way. And you can't play more 4 drops in the outcome version without cutting key cards. I'm not a fan of the black splash i've seen from the pro tour, battle at the bridge seems inferior to unsummon effect for me because unsummon can save a sai from chandra/glorybringer vs sorcery speed removal that will require setup to work but contraband kingpin looks like a decent card. Antiquities War is probably your most important sideboard card in the matches where you bring it in, it is that good of a card and i can't imagine a sideboard without it. It closes games fast when you need it and R/B/x decks have absolutely no way to interact with it.
1 Inventors' Fair
13 Island
3 Sai, Master Thopterist
4 Renegade Map
4 Ornithopter
3 Mox Amber
4 Prophetic Prism
2 Glint-Nest Crane
2 Metalspinner's Puzzleknot
4 Inspiring Statuary
2 Aetherflux Reservoir
3 Baral's Expertise
4 Paradoxical Outcome
2 Commit /// Memory
3 Metallic Rebuke
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Negate
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Tezzeret, Artifice Master
1 Exclusion Mage
1 Island
1 Unwind
1 Jace's Defeat
2 Aether Meltdown
2 Navigator's Compass
2 The Antiquities War
4 Zhalfirin Void
1 Inventors’ Fair
2 Glint-Nest Crane
4 Ornithopter
4 Sai, Master Thopterist
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Aetherflux Reservoir
3 Baral’s Expertise
3 Metallic Rebuke
2 Metalspinner’s Puzzleknot
3 Mox Amber
4 Paradoxical Outcome
4 Prophetic Prism
4 Renegade Map
4 Inspiring Statuary
1 Commit // Memory
2 Aether Meltdown
2 Exclusion Mage
1 Jace’s Defeat
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Navigator’s Compass
2 Negate
1 Tezzeret, Artifice Master
2 The Antiquities War
1 Island
1 Unwind
Observations:
4 Sai is the correct answer. He's the only creature you play that's worth killing and most decks will make it a point to kill him ASAP. Drawing two is always fine. Three can be a bit much, but you just want Sai as often as possible. He makes the deck work.
Karn is good. He gives us a blocker or speeds up our clock, and even card advantage mode is fine. The interaction with Sai + Statuary is sick. Using Outcome to get multiple Karn activations or to yank Karn out of the way of an attacker is also fun.
I haven't found the green matchup to be a total nightmare. Yeah, turn 2 steel leaf into pump into pump is game over. But if they don't get an elf or they don't get the steel leaf then we've got a good shot. Exclusion Mage and Aether Meltdown also do good work against them.
Against mono red (Ahn Crop Crasher edition) I have really liked the compass. It plays nicely with Paradoxical Outcome and nets you improvise mana with Sai. I find just relying on Reservoir to be too slow. Especially when they get the curve out + abrade draws.
The matchup that gives me fits is RB. The combination of a fast clock, targeted discard, and abrade is just brutal. I've tried the Antiquities War and have found it kind of medium. They have a lot of time to prepare for it and usually if you don't kill the turn it ultimates you die on the crackback. I'm not really sure what would be better against them. This matchup alone might be a good reason to try to red splash to just race them with Jhoira.
2x Aether Meltdown
1x Exclusion Mage
3x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Navigator's Compass
3x Negate
1x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Time of Ice
I have the following plan for the MU's, appreciate any tips or if you agree with the plan, I'd like to hear as well
RB:
IN: 2 Aether Meltdown, 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, 2 Time of Ice, 2 Navigator's Compass, 1 Exclusion Mage, 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
OUT: 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 2 Metalspinner's Puzzleknot, 2 Commit // Memory, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Mox Amber, 1 Metallic Rebuke, 1 Sai, Master Thopterist, 2 Baral's Expertise
Grixis/UB Bolas:
IN: 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, 3 Negate
OUT: 2 Glint-Nest Crane, 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 1 Mox Amber, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Baral's Expertise
Mono Green:
IN: 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, 2 Aether Meltdown, 1 Exclusion Mage, 2 Time of Ice, 1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
OUT: 2 Glint-Nest Crane, 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 2 Commit // Memory, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Mox Amber, 2 Metalspinner's Puzzleknot
GB Constrictor:
IN: 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, 1 Exclusion Mage, 2 Time of Ice, 1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
OUT: 2 Glint-Nest Crane, 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 1 Commit // Memory, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Metalspinner's Puzzleknot, 1 Mox Amber
Esper/UW/Nexus Fog:
IN: 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, 3 Negate, 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
OUT: 3 Baral's Expertise, 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Metalspinner's Puzzleknot, 1 Mox Amber
Mono U Storm:
IN: 3 Negate, 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
OUT: 2 Baral's Expertise, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Mox Amber
Mono Red:
IN: 2 Aether Meltdown, 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, 1 Time of Ice, 2 Navigator's Compass, 1 Exclusion Mage, 1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
OUT: 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 2 Metalspinner's Puzzleknot, 2 Commit // Memory, 3 Baral's Expertise, 1 Metallic Rebuke
UW Gift:
IN: 3 Negate, 1 Exclusion Mage
OUT: 2 Glint-Nest Crane, 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 1 Mox Amber
Mono W/B:
IN: 2 Aether Meltdown, 3 Karn, Scion of Urza, 1 Exclusion Mage, 2 Time of Ice
OUT: 2 Glint-Nest Crane, 1 Aetherflux Reservoir, 1 Mox Amber, 2 Commit // Memory, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Metalspinner's Puzzleknot
Thanks in advance!
DC
Cheers
I don't think it's a good idea to try to beat RB in their own midrange game. I'f you're bringing in Karns in this MU, then why not just MD them? I'm also 99% sure you're never supposed to board in both compass and Karn in the same MU, it really looks like you're super unfocused. My plan, which I happen to like, is simply bringing in 2-3 Compasses (sometimes I bring in only 2 on the play). I cut the one Puzzleknot and Engineer I have, then the 3rd Expertise.
Again not big on Karn here. Grixis usually plays out like a tapout deck, and you actually need to respect their clock. Karns lines up very poorly against Bolas. I like Jace's Defeat and 3rd Commit from my own Board and SB nothing else, for reference.
Again I'm questioning the inclusion of Karn. Conctrictor has the ability to go WAY over the top with Ballistas and Gearhulks so I don't see the appeal of the midrange plan. In what kind of a game is Karn going to be in goldilocks zone between being winmore or do-nothing?
Boarding Reservoir out here seems Egregious. I'm also not sure about going down to 0 Commits as the card gives you some relief against possible Abrades.
I agree with the Negates, but Exclusion Mage seems so out of place here. My advice is to board out 1-2 Expertises as they become very ineffective in the post board games.
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For UW Gift, bouncing the tokens with either the Exclusion Mage or Expertise seems decent to me. Or do you think Expertise is too slow against GPG?
For Mono Red, I can see your reasoning, although I still keep 2 Reservoir in the main. Going for 0 Commit, it just feels like an expensive card in the mu, although I can understand it allows you to save your keypieces from dying to Abrade. What would you suggest as a plan here with the given main/side?
I'm hesitant to play Karn main, I can understand it's good but is that the way you want to go? If so, I assume you're going into a 2 Rservoir main plan? Karn is nuts don't take me wrong, but to me feels like it's more a card to transition to and not play as your main wincon, or am I just mistaken here?
Thanks for your input, appreciated. And you have a ton more experience with the deck than I have so happy to take on advice.
DC
Against GPG the post board games play out more like your games against UW control. They draw and filter, keep counters open, and target your statuaries. SB Teferis are the biggest issue. Your creatures can easily brickwall early aggression, what matters is winning the counter battles. For this reason Expertise becomes worse. My SB plan has been -1 Sai, -2 Crane, -2 Expertise, +3 negate +1 defeat +1 commit.
Against flame of keld/red(/b) aggro I board out the same way I do against RB: -1 puzzleknot, -1 reverse, -1 expertise, +3 Compass. Commit can be clunky, but it's also a 2-mana timetwister, and these draw effects supplement our plan which makes us lighter on action. Just my take on it. I have a pretty positive opinion of Commit in general.
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Regarding Karn main it’s just that I have no experience with that angle. It can’t do harm to do it, and like you say if I’m boarding it in in most matchups why not just main board it? It’s like I said, your experience with the deck exceeds mine by far so I’m happy you’re there to discuss.
Cheers
DC
Youtube Channel
new gam podcast has Gerry Thompson and a Bryan both saying they are on the deck for GPLA. Bryan likes 1 reservoir as an extra out, Gerry apparently thinks it’s just s bad card and doesn’t like any and prefers to beat down with thopters and constructs.
CFB has posted a new PVDDR article about storm with his sideboard guide to his PT build and thoughts on it as well.