The only reason to add white imo is hidden stockpile.
You only need 5 treasure/cells for a marionette kill so procession is pretty expensive for little pay off.
I really would consider white for stockpile though it makes agro so much easier to deal with and fumigate is so much better than bontus reckoning
Conley's list looks absolutely amazing! I don' know if I'm a fan of the Doomfalls, though. I feel like there has to be other cards that are more deserving of maindeck slots. Perhaps Battle at the Bridge, Metallic Rebuke, Gifted Aetherborn (I love this card, but it has been getting killed a lot more lately) etc.
Doomfall has a bit more versatility, letting us look at our opponent's hand, and also getting around hexproof for lone Carnage Tyrants or Bristling Hydras.
Doomfall has a bit more versatility, letting us look at our opponent's hand, and also getting around hexproof for lone Carnage Tyrants or Bristling Hydras.
That's assuming that Bristling Hydra and Carnage Tyrants are the only creature on their board, which is highly unlikely given the lack of cheap removal we have, and that our board-wipe isn't coming down until at least turn 5. If I were to sleeve up the deck today, I would switch out Doomfall for Harsh Scrutiny or more Fumigate.
I believe Conley had the Doomfalls in anticipation of UB Control, not for the Energy Decks. Resolving Doomfall against UB means that you can take their counters, card-draw, and Scarab Gods (Torrential Gearhulk too). However, I would like Harsh Scrutiny/more boardwipes in the main because Energy and Ramanup Red are much more popular decks, and Doomfall is almost not even worth casting on curve in these matchups. This is entirely meta dependent, though. So, Doomfalls in the main will be good in a heavy-control meta.
Good points! I was going to try 2 Bontu's Last Reckoning to see how it fares. I don't think it works very well on turn three, but turn six or seven it might be better than Fumigate depending on the matchup and treasures available to us.
I really wanted to splash white for stockpile last friday but i ended up playing RB aggro because i ordered a bunch of card through my stores webpage and when i showed up they said their stock levels were wrong so they only had half my order -_-
But for real. Stockpile adds so much resiliency against everything but tyrant and board wipes dont matter when you end step get 3 servos back.
If i were to play all in on combo though id definitely want more counters main deck
I really wanted to splash white for stockpile last friday but i ended up playing RB aggro because i ordered a bunch of card through my stores webpage and when i showed up they said their stock levels were wrong so they only had half my order -_-
But for real. Stockpile adds so much resiliency against everything but tyrant and board wipes dont matter when you end step get 3 servos back.
If i were to play all in on combo though id definitely want more counters main deck
That sucks! Hopefully next weekend will go better for you haha
I'll be sleeving up a variation of the Conley Wood's build for this weekend. UB Control is pretty prominent in my meta ('cuz Japan), so I'll be including a bit more hate for the control matchup. I'll report back the following Monday (in Japan time).
Conley's build is super fun to play, but also takes some getting used to. I'd recommend watching a few of his videos to see how he pilots it. Lots of decisions to make. When I first started I wouldn't take full advantage of the scry and card draw, keeping my treasures around for Master. Now I see that's not the way to go.
Also, tried Bontu's Last Reckoning. Didn't like how it slowed us down, even on turn five. Fumigate is just better in this deck. There's just so much you can do with your mana every turn to scry or draw to find answers or an end game. Having three less (plus not being able to do anything else for the turn without making the next turn that much worse) is just unacceptable in my opinion.
Fatal Push has been an all-star as has Doomfall believe it or not. Being able to hit any non-land card in their hand is really good, even at three mana. Plus it exiles it, which can mess up their graveyard interaction.
Haven't lost a match ever since figuring out how to pilot the deck. Very good, and hard to beat as long as you don't draw land five turns in a row.
Conley's build is super fun to play, but also takes some getting used to. I'd recommend watching a few of his videos to see how he pilots it. Lots of decisions to make. When I first started I wouldn't take full advantage of the scry and card draw, keeping my treasures around for Master. Now I see that's not the way to go.
Also, tried Bontu's Last Reckoning. Didn't like how it slowed us down, even on turn five. Fumigate is just better in this deck. There's just so much you can do with your mana every turn to scry or draw to find answers or an end game. Having three less (plus not being able to do anything else for the turn without making the next turn that much worse) is just unacceptable in my opinion.
Fatal Push has been an all-star as has Doomfall believe it or not. Being able to hit any non-land card in their hand is really good, even at three mana. Plus it exiles it, which can mess up their graveyard interaction.
Haven't lost a match ever since figuring out how to pilot the deck. Very good, and hard to beat as long as you don't draw land five turns in a row.
That is very good to hear! Please keep us updated with further results from online or in paper!
Hidden stockpile feels really slow still. And it takes up 9 spots if you include the 1 mana artifacts that he plays to trigger revolt
I think in that slot i want 3 weaponscraft and 1 herald. Then swap the 4th master for a 2nd herald.
Maybe even just play UB for 4 spell swindle and make more use of the treasure map.
I think you could easily still play 4 courtyard and 1 basic plains for fumigate/castout with all the treasure tokens for white
Hidden stockpile feels really slow still. And it takes up 9 spots if you include the 1 mana artifacts that he plays to trigger revolt
I think in that slot i want 3 weaponscraft and 1 herald. Then swap the 4th master for a 2nd herald.
Maybe even just play UB for 4 spell swindle and make more use of the treasure map.
I think you could easily still play 4 courtyard and 1 basic plains for fumigate/castout with all the treasure tokens for white
I've completely redone the primer, and there is a section for Hidden Stockpile that clarifies why I think the card is very good for the archetype. I think white adds a lot to the deck and is easily fixed. Please take a look when you have time!
Hidden stockpile feels really slow still. And it takes up 9 spots if you include the 1 mana artifacts that he plays to trigger revolt
I think in that slot i want 3 weaponscraft and 1 herald. Then swap the 4th master for a 2nd herald.
Maybe even just play UB for 4 spell swindle and make more use of the treasure map.
I think you could easily still play 4 courtyard and 1 basic plains for fumigate/castout with all the treasure tokens for white
You should watch Conley play this deck. twitch.tv/conley81 It doesn't work like you think it works. Every piece interacts with every other piece. Hidden Stockpile is one of the wincons for the deck.
The marionette masters deck has a few ways it can get built and it largely depends on how all in one is on the strategy they are as well as what mechanics they pick to supplement it.
One build that is possible is token aristocrats, which is a go wide improvise build that uses marionette master as an alternate win condition.
Another build is the treasure and etherium cell build that generates defenders via ramping or using the treasures. That build requires answers that synergize early in the game to stop aggro from running them over. These builds sometimes use metalwork colosus since there's stuff like treasure map on the field early.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The marionette masters deck has a few ways it can get built and it largely depends on how all in one is on the strategy they are as well as what mechanics they pick to supplement it.
One build that is possible is token aristocrats, which is a go wide improvise build that uses marionette master as an alternate win condition.
Another build is the treasure and etherium cell build that generates defenders via ramping or using the treasures. That build requires answers that synergize early in the game to stop aggro from running them over. These builds sometimes use metalwork colosus since there's stuff like treasure map on the field early.
Do you happen to have decklists for these so I can update the primer? I'd like for this thread to discuss the full extent of the archetype so we can make our decisions based on that information!
The marionette masters deck has a few ways it can get built and it largely depends on how all in one is on the strategy they are as well as what mechanics they pick to supplement it.
One build that is possible is token aristocrats, which is a go wide improvise build that uses marionette master as an alternate win condition.
Another build is the treasure and etherium cell build that generates defenders via ramping or using the treasures. That build requires answers that synergize early in the game to stop aggro from running them over. These builds sometimes use metalwork colosus since there's stuff like treasure map on the field early.
Do you happen to have decklists for these so I can update the primer? I'd like for this thread to discuss the full extent of the archetype so we can make our decisions based on that information!
I'll see if I can find some of the deck lists I've seen thus far. The reason I didn't put deck lists up here is because the Marionette Master decks seem like they have gone every color except green in combination with black. The treasures build is just one of many decks, and probably one of the better ones because of the flexibility. It's like having harder to kill scions.
I know I've seen the servo / improvise / go wide version post rotation pop up, but I think that the only actual listing I've seen for that one was a rotation proof deck tech done by some brewers on youtube.
edit: And I just realized Conley's listing is like the heart and soul of this thread. Yeah, I'll get to work on finding any of the other listings.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You should watch Conley play this deck. twitch.tv/conley81 It doesn't work like you think it works. Every piece interacts with every other piece. Hidden Stockpile is one of the wincons for the deck.
Yeah i get it i think ive just won too many games off the back of herald (dinosaurs and approach are the 2 biggest decks in my area)
Its pretty slow vs approach as opposed to herald coming down t4 after they tap to play gideon. And it flies over the dinosaurs instead of chumping and letting them trigger enrage or just getting trampled by tyrant.
I did dismiss treasure map too early. It gives so much draw now that i play more swindles as well.
I get stockpile. It lets us play through our own fumigate and scry and make servos for combo.
Im going to try it again with terrarion instead of map. It still "fixes" colours for t2 stockpile and triggers revolt at the same time and i think the draw is better than the basic land at every other point in the game. Especially with kingpin down.
Also ill be adding 2 of the mill deserts to my deck as a hate tech for approach decks. After they cast approach just count cards untill you know its close enough to the top and mill it
Well, I can't find the listing online that I played prior, but I did see a deck that looked like this one that had Underhanded Designs in it being used in combination with Hidden Stockpile. The other variant I've seen uses Maverick Thopterist, using the Etherium cells and treasures to cast it.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thats much easier to do in a proper colossus shell with morbid curiosity.
Play artifacts. Drop colossus. Morbid. Draw lots. Play marionette cheap cos you have inspiring statuary out. Sack 5 artifacts to colossus
You only need 5 treasure/cells for a marionette kill so procession is pretty expensive for little pay off.
I really would consider white for stockpile though it makes agro so much easier to deal with and fumigate is so much better than bontus reckoning
4 Marionette Master
Spells (21)
2 Fatal Push
4 Battle at the Bridge
4 Lightning Strike
2 Abrade
4 Pirate's Prize
3 Spell Swindle
2 Sweltering Suns
Other (11)
4 Treasure Map
2 Inspiring Statuary
2 Revel in Riches
3 Tezzeret the Schemer
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Spirebluff Canal
3 Evolving Wilds
3 Island
3 Mountain
3 Swamp
4 Duress
2 Fatal Push
4 Negate
2 Sweltering Suns
3 Vraska's Contempt
The 2 best cards in red imo are pia and unlicensed disintegration. Then with push and unlicensed abrade and strike arent really necessary
https://mobile.twitter.com/Conley81/status/919230843813445632
That's assuming that Bristling Hydra and Carnage Tyrants are the only creature on their board, which is highly unlikely given the lack of cheap removal we have, and that our board-wipe isn't coming down until at least turn 5. If I were to sleeve up the deck today, I would switch out Doomfall for Harsh Scrutiny or more Fumigate.
I believe Conley had the Doomfalls in anticipation of UB Control, not for the Energy Decks. Resolving Doomfall against UB means that you can take their counters, card-draw, and Scarab Gods (Torrential Gearhulk too). However, I would like Harsh Scrutiny/more boardwipes in the main because Energy and Ramanup Red are much more popular decks, and Doomfall is almost not even worth casting on curve in these matchups. This is entirely meta dependent, though. So, Doomfalls in the main will be good in a heavy-control meta.
But for real. Stockpile adds so much resiliency against everything but tyrant and board wipes dont matter when you end step get 3 servos back.
If i were to play all in on combo though id definitely want more counters main deck
That sucks! Hopefully next weekend will go better for you haha
I'll be sleeving up a variation of the Conley Wood's build for this weekend. UB Control is pretty prominent in my meta ('cuz Japan), so I'll be including a bit more hate for the control matchup. I'll report back the following Monday (in Japan time).
Also, tried Bontu's Last Reckoning. Didn't like how it slowed us down, even on turn five. Fumigate is just better in this deck. There's just so much you can do with your mana every turn to scry or draw to find answers or an end game. Having three less (plus not being able to do anything else for the turn without making the next turn that much worse) is just unacceptable in my opinion.
Fatal Push has been an all-star as has Doomfall believe it or not. Being able to hit any non-land card in their hand is really good, even at three mana. Plus it exiles it, which can mess up their graveyard interaction.
Haven't lost a match ever since figuring out how to pilot the deck. Very good, and hard to beat as long as you don't draw land five turns in a row.
Will write up results
That is very good to hear! Please keep us updated with further results from online or in paper!
Awesome to hear, and thank you for contributing! Hopefully we can solve the archetype before the major and minor tourney seasons arrive.
I think in that slot i want 3 weaponscraft and 1 herald. Then swap the 4th master for a 2nd herald.
Maybe even just play UB for 4 spell swindle and make more use of the treasure map.
I think you could easily still play 4 courtyard and 1 basic plains for fumigate/castout with all the treasure tokens for white
I've completely redone the primer, and there is a section for Hidden Stockpile that clarifies why I think the card is very good for the archetype. I think white adds a lot to the deck and is easily fixed. Please take a look when you have time!
You should watch Conley play this deck. twitch.tv/conley81 It doesn't work like you think it works. Every piece interacts with every other piece. Hidden Stockpile is one of the wincons for the deck.
One build that is possible is token aristocrats, which is a go wide improvise build that uses marionette master as an alternate win condition.
Another build is the treasure and etherium cell build that generates defenders via ramping or using the treasures. That build requires answers that synergize early in the game to stop aggro from running them over. These builds sometimes use metalwork colosus since there's stuff like treasure map on the field early.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Do you happen to have decklists for these so I can update the primer? I'd like for this thread to discuss the full extent of the archetype so we can make our decisions based on that information!
I'll see if I can find some of the deck lists I've seen thus far. The reason I didn't put deck lists up here is because the Marionette Master decks seem like they have gone every color except green in combination with black. The treasures build is just one of many decks, and probably one of the better ones because of the flexibility. It's like having harder to kill scions.
This is one of the lists I've seen before that goes Esper for Hidden Stockpile and fumigate.
http://decks.tcgplayer.com/magic/standard/conley/esper-marionette-master/1294136.
I know I've seen the servo / improvise / go wide version post rotation pop up, but I think that the only actual listing I've seen for that one was a rotation proof deck tech done by some brewers on youtube.
edit: And I just realized Conley's listing is like the heart and soul of this thread. Yeah, I'll get to work on finding any of the other listings.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah i get it i think ive just won too many games off the back of herald (dinosaurs and approach are the 2 biggest decks in my area)
Its pretty slow vs approach as opposed to herald coming down t4 after they tap to play gideon. And it flies over the dinosaurs instead of chumping and letting them trigger enrage or just getting trampled by tyrant.
I did dismiss treasure map too early. It gives so much draw now that i play more swindles as well.
I get stockpile. It lets us play through our own fumigate and scry and make servos for combo.
Im going to try it again with terrarion instead of map. It still "fixes" colours for t2 stockpile and triggers revolt at the same time and i think the draw is better than the basic land at every other point in the game. Especially with kingpin down.
Also ill be adding 2 of the mill deserts to my deck as a hate tech for approach decks. After they cast approach just count cards untill you know its close enough to the top and mill it
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thank you Kevin from the rogue deck builder!
I really want to get my hands on this and see about branching out to sultai or grixis for more win cons.
What do you guys think?
https://youtu.be/jv9ig8yJupE
Play artifacts. Drop colossus. Morbid. Draw lots. Play marionette cheap cos you have inspiring statuary out. Sack 5 artifacts to colossus