So went to FNM last night. Played R/B/w. While playing this deck previously, I noticed the only time I really lost was when I wasn't drawing enough cards. I felt adding Nahiri would help. She was fantastic. The nuts. I didn't even really have any sweet targets. I basically added 3 copies and some white fast lands. My dropped games were due to being rusty, been 3 months since I have played. My lost matches were due to my poor sideboard set up, I don't own a ton of new stuff and I'm lazy when it comes to playing FNM. So I just jam what I already have in there.
Again the sideboard was far from set up. Not even going to post it. Consisted mostly of more spot removal 2x Unlicensed Disintegration 2x Lighning Axe. Biggest thing there was 2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. Kalitas was absolutely bonkers. I actually forgot how good he can be. Most of the time I just used Nahiri to dig, then set up just putting a hasted Pariah for an extra 5 damage to close it out. So this has got me thinking about what could be good if this was properly built. Thoughts?
So I threw an aggressive build of this together Friday night after FNM and played it yesterday in the Standard Showdown. It performed really well and my only loss was vs RG Marvel where I mulled a lot and things played out very awkwardly. Game 1 I lost because I drew too many mountains and couldn't play Pariah to deal with Emrakul. I revealed the Pariah and he almost scooped, but I pointed out I didn't have the 3 black.
Game 2 turn 4 Distended Mindbender on the play wrecked him.
Game 3, I mulled to 6, kept a Mindbender hand with Pariah and Amalgam and proceeded to flood hard. This is one where had those mountains been Spirebluff Canal's, I would have won. Instead, I had no play until hard cast Pariah.
Has anybody tried the UR list from channel fireball? It drops the Haunted Dead/Pariah synergy in favor of flying zombies, emerge creatures, and Kozilek's Return.
Has anybody tried the UR list from channel fireball? It drops the Haunted Dead/Pariah synergy in favor of flying zombies, emerge creatures, and Kozilek's Return.
I know a guy that won an PPTQ with a similar list.
Has anybody tried the UR list from channel fireball? It drops the Haunted Dead/Pariah synergy in favor of flying zombies, emerge creatures, and Kozilek's Return.
I know a guy that won an PPTQ with a similar list.
After taking it for a spin myself I'm impressed. 3-2, 4-1, 4-1 on modo friendly leagues, with two of the match losses down to time. There's a lot of moving pieces and I'm still not sure I'm even sideboarding right.
You can blitz people out early. I had one game with the dream of turn two cathartic reunion discarding skaab and amalgam, then turn three bring back skaab with three amalgams.
You can grind out UR control. I actually won one game when I never resolved a spell. A countered tormenting voice got a skaab in the yard and he and the amalgam in my hand went to work.
You can throw haymakers. The Elder Deep-Fiend -> Kozilek flashback is amazing. Sometimes you can even tack a rebuy of all of your amalgams on top of it. Chaining deep-fiends with the Sanctum can also be backbreaking.
You have tricks out of nowhere. Opponent activates copter so you activate a stitchwing in the yard, pitching K-return and amalgam, then emerging a deep-fiend through the stitchwing. The board is wrathed, your amalgam comes back end of turn, and you get to tap all of their lands during combat.
Sometimes you get a clunky hand where things don't really come together but the red card draw helps smooth things out. They are kind of terrifying to use against a deck deploying islands but the general strategy is so good against counterspells that it balances out. It's a real brain teaser to play and I found it quite fun.
I had my very first competitive league 5-0 thanks to the UR zombies deck, racking up only one game loss in five rounds. This was partly getting more comfortable with the deck and partly running hot. I did play a fairly representative sample of the metagame so I thought it was worth doing a report to discuss how you win when things are going well.
Overall the deck does everything I want to be doing. You can bring early pressure and get the occasional free win off the god hand blitz. You can grind out a long game. You can turn games around with over the top haymakers. You can interact with your opponent, killing creatures and (post sideboard) countering spells. I think it has legit game against the top decks in the format and I had fun playing it.
Opening hand is a bit speculative: prized amalgam, gryff, tormenting voice, double cathartic reunion, island, sanctum of ugin. It's primed to explode if I get a red source in the first few turns, so I keep.
I'm on the play, my first few draws are: island, then lightning axe, then wandering fumarole. Opponent casts Vessel of Nascency turn one, cracks turn two, plays another turn three, nothing turn 4. I break the durdle stalemate on turn 5 by reunioning an amalgam and advanced stitchwing away, drawing into an untapped land. His turn 5 is Ishkanah with delirium. I bring back the zombies during his turn. My turn I lightning axe ishkanah, attack (no blocks), and upgrade the amalgam and stitchwing into gryffs, cracking sanctum for Elder Deep-Fiend.
He grasps away both Gryffs. My turn I tormenting voice, then bring back the zombies pitching lands during his turn. This time he blocks to kill the amalgam. I play sanctum. During his upkeep I upgrade the stitchwing into an edf, tapping his lands, then pitch my remaining two cards to buy back the zombies again. Sanctum brings another EDF. Opponent has had enough and concedes.
For the sideboard I bring in Fevered Visions, shaving gryffs and voices.
On the draw my hand is much less explosive. Two Filigree Familiars, Advanced Stitchwing, and four land. One of them is Wandering Fumarole and I feel pretty good about the familiar's ability to buy time so I keep. I rip an EDF. Opponent transgresses turn two and takes filigree familiar. Turn three he lost legacies away advanced stitchwing. I cathartic reunion stitchwing skaab into the yard and draw into an amalgam so I'm feeling good. He lost legacies again for EDF. I go ahead and drop turn 4 fevered visions. He picks the brain and snags my amalgam. I play filigree familiar, next turn another fevered visions. He murders my familiar and hits me with a grim flayer. I get k-return into the yard, flash it back with Wretched Gryff, and he can't beat the Fevered Visions from there.
My opponent's hands were not great and I'm not sure he made good sideboard decisions, but I think the deck honestly matches up well against BG if you don't get flayer-blitzed. The flashbacked K-return is brutal for them, Liliana is very meh against us, and the recurring zombies are tough on them. They also can't blow us out by countering our draw spells.
Round 2: UW Flash (2-0)
I have the nut draw. 3 lands, advanced stitchwing, prized amalgam, and two cathartic reunions. I even have Wretched Gryff to upgrade my dudes. The only thing better would be adding an EDF. I'm on the draw but he runs a smuggler's copter out turn two so I have free rein for hugs. I probably would have cast it anyway but it's nice to know for sure you're getting three new cards. I draw into another amalgam and he does nothing turn 3. Turn 4 second main the zombies come out to play. I beat down. My attempt to upgrade an amalgam into a gryff gets rebuffed but I don't even care. He stasis snares my advanced stitchwing on the next attack (going to 8). I voice a stitchwing into the yard. He plays Thalia, I bring back the zombies and lightning axe Thalia for the concession. I had edf in hand and a sanctum in play as well.
Sideboard is +1 axe +1 fiery temper -2 gryff.
Game two I have tormenting voice and a stitchwing skaab, snap keep. I draw into amalgam. My tormenting voice to pitch the stitchwing gets negated. He follows up with Thalia. His turn 4 he swings and plays copter, I bring back my team. My hand is three lightning axes and a gryff, he has three cards in hand. I swing in and ship the turn. He plays Gisela and stays back to block. I axe her, untap, and axe thalia. She crews the copter and I go ahead and swing. Copter trades off with the amalgam and I upgrade the stitchwing into a Gryff. He has another Thalia and dec stone for the gryff (down to one card in hand). I crack the clue and ship the turn. He plays Thraben inspector. The inspector and thalia both die to K-return (suggesting his final card isn't Avacyn). I swing with the Fumarole and discover the final card is a spell queller that comes down to block.
He makes a westvale abbey token and then I get to live the dream: bring back stitchwing, emerge edf, flashback k-return, and swing with edf + amalgam + fumarole for the kill.
UW can be tricky between countermagic, Avacyn, and selfless spirit. I also dodged Gideon both games. That said, flashing back K-return does good work (if they play Avacyn you can decline it and try again later) and the existence of EDF makes protecting Gideon tough for them. The zombie spin cycle (amalgam/stitchwing + emerge) happens at instant speed and they have a hard time blowing you out. Even if they have stasis snare or dec stone they have to worry about EDF emerge busting their play. The main thing is not getting your axes or your draw spells quellered.
Round 3: UW Panharmonicon (2-0)
I start out with two tormenting voices, a lightning axe, and no action. I actually like the hand since the draw power is so good. I axe his turn three reflector mage and pitch k-return, a land, and stitchwing skaab to my own spells. No amalgam shows up. Meanwhile he runs out a copter and an Eldrazi Displacer. I hard cast advanced stitchwing, which eats a stasis snare. I keep drawing land and draw spells, eventually getting a filigree familiar in play with wretched gryff in hand. He plays another copter and a glint nest crane (which whiffs even after being displaced). I gryff through familiar to flash back k-return and wipe his board with no cards in hand. He rips drowner of hope to tap my gryff and beat me to 4 with his copters. I have an amalgam and bring back stitchwing and an amalgam (he's at 18). Lightning axe takes out the drowner, team swings for 9, edf blanks his attack phase, opp concedes.
I side out most of the red draw spells for fevered visions and a couple negates. I'm not sure if the focus should be on keeping panharmonicon off the board or on killing his team. I lean towards killing his team (especially displacer) with a couple miser's negates just in case.
Game two my opening hand is zombies, land, and a fevered visions. He runs out an early copter and crews it with a crane. I drop the fevered visions. My hard cast stitchwing skaab gets spell shriveled and he continues the beats. I axe his displacer. His turn he plays panharmonicon while I bring back advanced stitchwing and an amalgam.
I'm at 6, he's at 14, and k-return is in the yard. He has thraben inspector, glint nest crane, copter, and three cards in hand. I run out another fevered visions and keep my team back to block. The visions draw me into an EDF. He plays a reflector mage. The double trigger forces me to EDF before he crews his copter. The k-return flashback kills his team and the edf taps down his lands. I get another EDF off sanctum while he uses floated mana to stasis snare the kraken. He reflector mages next turn to crew the copter. I bring back stitchwing and sac it to edf, triggering my other sanctum and all the amalgams... and get blown out with Summary Dismissal. He beats me down to 3. My turn I hard cast stitchwing. He plays sky sovereign, I negate it. He crews his copter, I axe it. Fevered Visions gets him down to 6 and the stitchwing and fumarole swing in for the win.
Lesson learned: respect summary dismissal and let amalgam triggers resolve before casting edf with emerge.
Matchup thoughts: UW Panharmonicon is a real deck. It does some cool things and can go infinite. It can also get you pretty good for value with stuff like Thought-Knot Seer and Displacer. Even more so with Panharmonicon running. We can keep it under control to some degree with k-return and axes and ideally put them under some early pressure out of the yard. As usual the recurring zombies and EDF are a hassle for them to deal with. Reflector mage on Prized Amalgam is not super exciting for them.
Round 4: UB Control/Summonings (2-1)
Game one my hand is zombies, land, and edf. I managed to draw into a cathartic return and sneak it by the counter shield to get stitchwing and advanced stitchwing into the yard. I get greedy and go for a second reunion (pitching stitchwing and amalgam) and get spell shriveled. He lands summonings on his turn 6 while I bring back my zombies to start the beats.
My next attack (familiar, stitchwing, amalgam) runs into a gearhulk and a 4/4 token. I emerge edf post combat to cash in one k-return out of the yard and kill the hulk. He murders the kraken. From there he's able to use removal spells to kill my zombies, accumulate tokens, and beat me down. I was waiting to draw an eldrazi and flash back the remaining k-return but it never happens. I scoop to the next gearhulk.
I think I punted this one with the second reunion. If I had just spent the turn reanimating the zombies I already had I probably could have beat him down before he got the summonings working. I kind of thought he was ub zombies after he didn't counter the first one but that was still just greedy of me.
Game two I get an early reunion pitching advanced stitchwing. He transgresses, taking fevered visions over amalgam. I bring the team back on his turn three. The stitchwing eats a grasp, the amalgam beats in and then upgrades into a Gryff. The Gryff got in a hit and then on my next end of turn when he tapped out to glimmer I brought back the team (I feared summary dismissal). He drops metallurgic summonings turn 5 and I animate fumarole to swing and beat him down to one life. Next turn he murdered one dude, which I allowed. When he essence extracted another I emerged edf and tapped down his tokens, allowing the remaining attacker to finish the job.
Lesson learned from the first game: one early stitchwing + amalgam is plenty to get the beats rolling.
Game three we play lands and stare at each other for a while. I have two spell shrivels in hand. I go over hand size turn five and pitch an advanced stitchwing. On his end of turn I animate it, pitching two other stitchwings. I attack. He lets it resolve and goes for end of turn gearhulk, which I shrivel.
He untaps and plays an awakened ruinous path (!) to kill my zombie. I drop fevered visions while he's tapped out. He hits me with his island. Next turn when he goes to hit I animate the zombie, pitching k-return. He grasps it (not sure why), and I emerge the EDF and buy back k-return to kill his land. Sanctum is bringing another edf and my edf is tapping all his lands. He scoops.
I think we're big favorites in this matchup. One for one kill spells aren't great against zombies and fevered visions is a total bomb out of the board.
Round 5: Mardu Vehicles (2-0)
I win the die roll and my opening hand has a k-return, so I felt pretty good once I saw what he was playing. He does have incendiary flow to eat my filigree familiar and gets his toolcraft exemplar beating in while I churn through my deck. No amalgam shows up, but I do get a zombie in my yard and some eldrazi in my hand. I'm at 13 when the front half of the k-return eats two toolcraft exemplars. The next turn the back half gets his cultivator's caravan thanks to zombie -> emerge shenanigans. The edf, zombie, and fumarole take it home from there.
Game two I have Spirebluff Canal, two sanctums, three draw spells, fiery temper, and edf. I have to reunion away one of the sanctums but I do hit another red source. Next turn I reunion an amalgam and fiery temper, killing his thalia (his scrapheap scrounger I leave alone). He gets a veteran motorist out. I play filigree familiar to block. It gets flowed, so I axe the veteran, pitching another amalgam. Next turn I voice away a stitchwing skaab. I try playing another filigree familiar, but it eats a ceremonious rejection. He beats me down to 10 with his scrounger and plays another scrounger. My next familiar sticks.
On his next attack I block with the familiar, going to 9. He plays smuggler's copter, going hellbent with a scrounger in play and another in the yard. I bring back stitchwing and two amalgams, leaving me with Gryff and EDF in hand. I still only have one blue source available. The team beats in for 9 and I upgrade the stitchwing into a Gryff. I use sanctum to get another Gryff. The Gryff on board gets unlicensed disintegrated (using up his aether hub with no other black mana available to animate his scrapheap) and he beats me down to three. I k-return away his scrounger and hit him to 5, upgrading an amalgam into a gryff. He draws and scoops.
Overall this matchup feels terrific if you have a k-return and a little scary otherwise. Lightning axe, fiery temper, and filigree familiar all do good work as does, of course, elder deep-fiend. Getting an amalgam going means that when we do turn the corner we turn it very fast, swinging for 6-10 points of damage at a time.
I went with the original tourney list because the other one looked somewhat thrown together for an article rather than with thought behind it. Where I'm at and what I've learned:
The original 3rd place tourney deck had the plan of supporting endless zombies with Fevered Visions and was probably (somewhat correctly) predicting a field full of draw-go control. This is what the deck preys upon in a most obvious and brain-dead way. The zombies are not "played" but rather etb via abilities, which sidesteps counters, and the amalgams are plainly daft against some of the removal. So if the enemy is UR whatever or anything truly slow and clunky, the deck generally works. If it's anything which relies desperately on an artifact like Marvel, Reservoir or whatever, you sideboard counters and you prey on that too. Discarding via red spells lets you discard in a way which dodges counterspells (part of a cost), which is, in fact, the only real pro of it, but it kinda makes you better at what you're allready good at (and techincally it's the only thing the deck is really, truly good at).
However, the field online isn't remotely full of draw go, but seems to be the opposite, and I walked into 3 beatings in a row vs. RG energy aggro and BG midrange. They both have better dudes, playing Fevered Visions vs. them seems to be impossible, and they're not really afraid of Kozilek's Return. Folks over at the RG thread talk about Longtusk Cub being disposable and taking it out - you just can't get it out of the way and the real threats start showing up too fast, while your zombies are coming into play tapped. The BG guy just stalls until it draws either Noxious Gearhulk or Emrakul or Liliana and you get the picture. Gearhulk on Octopus just ends the match unless you have a crafty way of getting it out of the way, which is why I have all the Unsubstantiates in there. Scratch that, the deck is also vulnerable to Declaration in Stone on the amalagms, and you don't really want to be using the Octopus as a response to stuff because if you do there's nothing to push you through blockers or shut down the other guy.
Also, both stitchwings feel so inferior to Haunted Dead it's not even funny. The little guy has very little toughness, while the big guy costs 3, which isn't nearly as fast as the aggro decks demand you to be. Highland Lake is what I play in place of Wandering Fumarole for budget reasons, but I've literally lost games on turn 1 which I would have won otherwise because it comes into play tapped (would be the sem for Fumarole). Also, the deck is highly unlikely to be able to get mana for the Fumarole, because of dumping all the cards into scab reanimation. It's a great card and all that, and I bet I'd be doing better if I coughed up the money for them because of that one game where I get to activate it and it means something, but I'd still be paying money for something that will far more often screw me over due to mandatory CiP tapped. IDK if going Aether Hub is actually viable, because you do need a reliable UU for the octopus and you constantly need colored mana AND there's Sanctum of Ugin (the OG build only ran 2, I'm frankly terrified of running more due to mana screw potential).
If your reanimation costs three mana it WILL trip you up and make you lose tempo, which you don't rally have against anything with aggressive dudes. The damned thing looks great, but if a non-headache grixis manabase was possible I think it'd be best for the deck to run 4X Stitchwing Skab 4X Haunted Dead and then maybe 2X Advanced Stitchwing.
Elder Deep Fiend is great when it's great but not that great, in fact, not even with Kozilek's Return. Harnessed Lightning in many decks just kills it in response to the tapdown, and instead of being a large monster it just ends up being a chump-blocker to some powered up 20/20 RG thing. It's only big when they throw Noxious Gearhulk lifegain at it.
IDK if the version you guys have been running is superior. I'm not happy with the red discard, to be perfectly honest, because what tends to happen is that I have to play ASAP it because I can't wait or I'll die, but I don't have anything in hand that needs discarding, but then I draw stuff that needs discarding with it. I mean, it's good for filtering cards, that it is, but games where I start with Minister of Inquiries tend to work out waaaaay better for me. In fact, I've played against some Sultai full-on self-mill variant (Minister, Hourglass thingy, Grapple with the Past) which makes this deck look like a complete joke. You don't really want to be discarding things, because if you get any 1 of the self-reanimators in the grave, you'll easily discard whatever you want, and getting the amalgam into the grave directly is much better than drawing him, so self-mill is practically card draw.
All in all - too many "ifs". There's probably a rather good Grixis version which makes use of all the best components of the three decks. I don't think Voldaren Pariah even needs madness, honestly, I think you just need it in the zombie deck to be cast for 5 mana and flipped to wrath the other guy. The octopus just isn't getting it done for me. It's effect is temporary, it takes sacrificing something to put it into play, and this actually sets you back 2 cards (to get a mediocre at best card back)
For this deck, I'm beginning to think you could serious win games by chaining Contingency Plan which get you Unsubstantiates in hand and zombies in the yard. In fact, the only obvious advantage of the red discard is that it's uncounterable and doesn't actually cost you a card. But it's possible that Contingency Plan is just straight up better for zombies.
I'll have to try the version with the Filigree Familiar. I'm not sure about 4 Hipogriffs, though.
What you really want to be doing with the U/R deck is casting a turn two red looting spell, turn three reanimate with an amalgam, and then hold up mana while you apply pressure. Getting aggressive with EDF can win games but it can also get you blown out. I don't do the upkeep emerge tapdown unless I have to or I'm pretty sure the opponent can't respond effectively. Otherwise I usually emerge in response to removal. You can either emerge through the target to blank the spell or emerge through the partner zombie/amalgam so you can reanimate both efficiently.
Obviously the opponent can affect your game plan but Lightning Axe and the back half of K-return take care of most things. If you've been applying pressure the EDF tap down can deal with stuff that damage doesn't kill. If you don't have pressure and they have the whole Selfless Spirit/Avacyn package rolling then you're probably going to have a bad time. They do have to set up the invulnerability before you decide on the K-return trigger so sometimes you can run them out of them if you have enough Eldrazi.
Chaining Deep-Fiends is so good that I think it justifies the full play set of Sanctums by itself. The hidden value of the Wretched Gryff is that it lets you pop the sanctum and summon the kraken.
The Fumarole is nice for slamming the door shut after you clear the board. In general five land total is where you want to be as it lets you reanimate and emerge a deep fiend all in one go. Note that the net cost for reanimate -> emerge is the same for either stitchwing.
The deck can be very swingy but I would give the CFB list a few tries before making tweaks.
At least in my RB build, Insolent Neonate has been fantastic and my most aggressive draws involve that enabling a turn 2 Haunted Dead activation. Menace is very live on your 1 drop allowing it to attack late into the game and worst case, it basicly replaces itself while enabling madness and graveyard shenanigans. I am considering bumping it up to 4, but I'm not sure what I'd cut. I like the 2/2 Bomat/Crytpbreaker split because they are both powerful, but in different ways and both get worse in multiples while they work great if you get 1 of each. Bomat also brings it up to 11 artifacts for Unlisenced Disintegration.
What you really want to be doing with the U/R deck is casting a turn two red looting spell, turn three reanimate with an amalgam, and then hold up mana while you apply pressure. Getting aggressive with EDF can win games but it can also get you blown out. I don't do the upkeep emerge tapdown unless I have to or I'm pretty sure the opponent can't respond effectively. Otherwise I usually emerge in response to removal. You can either emerge through the target to blank the spell or emerge through the partner zombie/amalgam so you can reanimate both efficiently.
This was actually handy advice. The unintuitive, yet completely obvious in hindsight, thing about the deck that it's very lousy when it comes to card advantage. I even knew this and wanted to warn folks it mulligans horribly (Folks, it mulligans horribly! You're likely better off filling up your hand to 8 and dicsarding a scab than mulling down to 5!). However this really means you have to try to get as much mileage out of the emerge as possible, meaning use it in response to removal. But you still have to read the opponent and really make the upkeep plays happen when they must. Skill intensive, I have to say.
Still, just Lightning Axe and the turn 2 red discard is just too much of a luck based plan for a deck which, as I said, mulligans horribly. Not just "What if I don't draw it?", but also "What if I don't draw anything I want to discard?" (Really, this happens quite often, especially post sideboard. You only really want to discard either of the two scabs, the rest are either ok, or just cycling.) I did a league just now with 3 Magistrates and 2 Neonates and they do help things out. The Magistrates help out with Amalgams, and for a deck which kinda relies on drawing amalgams there's just too many games where I don't see any (I've noted at least 4 where I've drawn over half my deck and not seen 1).
I'll look into a copy or two of Nahiri's Wrath I think. The deck has issues with early onslaughts AND wants to liberally discard stuff with inflated mana cost. Doesn't do much to help with the copter, but ought to work wonders against Gideon, and there's a lot of cycling in the deck anyway.
Also, what exactly do you guys side Fevered Visions against? Aggro seems like it'd be nonsense, and there's plenty of it around, combo seems like it'd be suicide (on the draw you have to have 3 untapped mana and a counter ASAP or you're just dead). I can't really think of too many decks where I'd go and say "Great, I have fevered visions, that's what I'll side to mess him up!". I'm asking because I could use the sideboard slots to shore up against things that are beating me up.
Obviously the opponent can affect your game plan but Lightning Axe and the back half of K-return take care of most things. If you've been applying pressure the EDF tap down can deal with stuff that damage doesn't kill. If you don't have pressure and they have the whole Selfless Spirit/Avacyn package rolling then you're probably going to have a bad time. They do have to set up the invulnerability before you decide on the K-return trigger so sometimes you can run them out of them if you have enough Eldrazi.
The main problem are the cip-tapped lands, really, the deck (no Familiar version) is stupidly slow when it needs to react to things (needs setup to even cast anything, everything comes into play tapped), and when you get stuck with the CiP tapped lands at the wrong moment, you just can't tapdance around the removal. I did actually kill a Mardu Vehicles guy by stablilizing at 3 and 1 life respectively and pulling shennanigans with the squids, the potential power is deffinitely there, it's just that the deck trips itself up rather often and there's gotta be a way to make it more stable. I feel like it's somehow very vulnerable to the copter, probably because my previous deck just packed Harnessed Lightning and Fiery Temper and the gameplan involved turn 2 or 3 being reserved just for dealing with the copter by design. Fiery Temper just doesn't sit right with me in this deck, somehow. Avacyn, funnily enough, tends to regularly eat the Lightning Axe in response to her trigger for blowouts, because by the time she hits I'm likely not stuck fiddling with the setup.
Chaining Deep-Fiends is so good that I think it justifies the full play set of Sanctums by itself. The hidden value of the Wretched Gryff is that it lets you pop the sanctum and summon the kraken.
Oh, I'm deffinitely sold on this. I'm getting the hang of the octopus and DA PLAYS are epic and spectacular, I have to say. I'm still on 2 sanctums but I'll deffinitely bump asap.
The Fumarole is nice for slamming the door shut after you clear the board. In general five land total is where you want to be as it lets you reanimate and emerge a deep fiend all in one go. Note that the net cost for reanimate -> emerge is the same for either stitchwing.
Yep, I played a bunch today and paid attention to the board in terms of "would having the fumarole instead of the lake help me now" and there were a bunch of situations where it would. The most common type of situation is not so much after a wipe but when having a dude out would cost you a card you don't have and you've tapped the other guy down with the Octopus. This comes up a LOT vs. Marvel and other combo, where I'm seemingly always those 3-4 damage short for some reason and have to make mad plays and gamble when if I had a fumarole it'd kill the other guy. Pricy, but I have to get them.
The deck can be very swingy but I would give the CFB list a few tries before making tweaks.
Yeah, I'll definitely give the list a whirl, I'm curious if the Familiar helps vs. aggro.
I've also learned one more thing - I have no idea how to beat combo without siding in 8 counters. For the league I went with 2 Spell Shrivel and 2 Negate main deck and the same in the board, because there's nothing else I can do, and it actually worked because I lucked out and drew them a lot (like 6 or 7 out of total 8). Paradoxicaly, the counters tend to also work against some of the aggro, as you kinda just have to counter their removal or they'll wipe you off the board. The deck feels like it should have a game vs. combo, but it doesn't without boarding in a ton of counters, because you need setup to do anything (play dudes, do damage) and the other guy needs setup to instantly kill you. You're only an aggro deck if you luck out with the amalgams, and the only thing oyur guys have going for them is evasion, which they don't have vs. Iskhanah, the little guy loses combat to Pilgrims Eye (really, also your own Kozilek's Return ). Really, whether you'll be able to apply any pressure at all vs. a goldfish is completely random with this deck, probably even more so for folks who don't run one drops. The decks I lost to were the panharmonicon value deck (1-2) and an Aetherworks Marvel one (2-0).
At least in my RB build, Insolent Neonate has been fantastic and my most aggressive draws involve that enabling a turn 2 Haunted Dead activation. Menace is very live on your 1 drop allowing it to attack late into the game and worst case, it basicly replaces itself while enabling madness and graveyard shenanigans. I am considering bumping it up to 4, but I'm not sure what I'd cut. I like the 2/2 Bomat/Crytpbreaker split because they are both powerful, but in different ways and both get worse in multiples while they work great if you get 1 of each. Bomat also brings it up to 11 artifacts for Unlisenced Disintegration.
Isolent Neonate is up there with Thraben Inspector in terms of how great he is. He can also deal a boatload of damage, it's true. I'm considering 2 copies of Bomat for the UR version, but the chance of him swiping Amalgams and then getting them permanently lost is horrifying.
Hi guys, I've been playing this deck since last month (to be more precise, the list that made top 8 at GP Madrid) and I've been enjoying it a lot as it's a blast to play. I intend to keep playing it even after the Copter ban, but I'm not sure about how to replace it. Let's check all the options:
Heir of Falkenrath: Same cost and still a 3-power flying threat discard outlet, but you just get to discard once and you don't get a card in return. Olivia's Dragoon: Very similar to the heir, it lets you discard as many times as you want but you also lose a point of power. Key to the City: What I mean is playing a full playset. I'm not a fan of this one since it's not a threat on its own and is bad in multiples (you'll end up discarding this instead of what you really want to discard). Collective Brutality: Very versatile, but again, not a threat on its own. Reckless Racer: It's slow and doesn't fly, but you get to loot on attacking, which is very similar to what Copter does. Not sure how relevant is first strike on a 2/3 body. Pale Rider of Trostad: Same cost, same P/T, also evasive, but you can just discard once and not at will. Call the Bloodline: Already a good sideboard card. You can discard at instant speed, it gives you something in return when you discard, but again it's bad in multiples. Mad Prophet: The truest looter we have, he can loot for free right after being played but 4 mana is a lot. Bomat Courier: I think this is not the best deck for this card, but still...
Other possible ways involve switching from red to green (Noose Constrictor) or even blue (Wharf Infiltrator), but I think I'd rather keep playing the red removals.
What do you think?
EDIT: Well, it's also possible that we don't even need another discard outlet since we have plenty of them (Insolent Neonate, Cryptbreaker, Cathartic Reunion, Haunted Dead and Lightning Axe). Or maybe we could get by just rounding up numbers (like playing a fourth Neonate, a third Lightning Axe and a couple of other things).
The idea is obviously to use the Infiltrator to get down a T3 Pariah, then either fill the graveyard with the Amalgams, Scroungers and Scourges while putting out Eldrazi Horror tokens, or cast the creatures, sac them to Pariah and bring them all back again. Literally one of each of the three will just keep them all coming back over and over again. Drives the opponent nuts. Kalitas is there because he and Pariah get along nicely, giving him three Zombies. Key is a spare discard outlet, as is Bloodline. Liliana clears the way for the infiltrator and kills off small stuff, Ob helps with late game card draw, as does the Reap, as I found a certain lack of options in the late game, but less without the Haunted Dead.
So, no Haunted Dead. I just felt it did nothing. Its only use was to bring back the Amalgams, but it could never be used for blocking. Block, die, back in the graveyard. The main problem with the deck is the lack of a finisher, but Liliana can help with that if you have the Amalgams out especially as you ultimate her.
The sideboard is just aimed at disrupting various decks and combos, especially stopping things like Bristling Hydra.
I don't know if there's anything in Aether Revolt that will help it, other than Disallow. My main problems are stopping gearhulks and big stuff, using green and red instants to make silly things with trample and counters. Things I have been considering are either putting in a couple of the Haunted Dead or alternatively Stitchwing Skaab which has a bit more of an upside or even Advanced Stitchwing, which I find is a bit too expensive; Elder Deep-Fiend in Kalitas' place, although there's a good case against it further up; Sinister Concoction instead of Murder, although this could force you to have to discard something you want to hold on to; and Contingency Plan if I can cut something else. But I'm open to discussion... Yahenni's Expertise seems a good sideboarder, as is Fatal Push and possibly Yahenni, Undying Partisan himself. Although I'm really disappointed the black mana gearhulk wasn't something that would in some way interact with the "scrapheap"/graveyard.
Hi again. I just noticed some guy did fairly well with this deck in the last SCG, reaching 22nd place. His list looks very similar to what I was playing:
I saw some discussion on UR Zombies, and wanted to get in on that if people are still playing it.
I've been playing those discard-to-revive zombies since SOI (grixis then) and switched to Izzet when Advanced Stitchwing was introduced in EMN. I've actually went all in on dumping zombies in the GY and bringing them back, so much so that a kid at my LGS has dubbed my deck "Standard Dredge." I don't play modern, and I haven't cast a dredge card since Ravnica block, but I think that's praise.
One question I always get is "why Broken Concentration instead of <insert Counterspell here>?" The only answer is the madness. Sometimes it's relevant.
I used to run Stitchwing Skaab for a very very long time with this list. It was good, especially back when I could get it out turn 2 with Insolent Neonate, but since I switched that slot to Geralf's Masterpiece and went midrange, this deck has been much stronger. The biggest problem I found with Skaab is it didn't survive in combat. It died so easily. I felt like I was reviving and reviving and reviving, and not getting much value. On balance, I've felt that as much as Masterpiece survives longer than skaab, I've come out ahead in cards even though Masterpiece costs me 3 instead of 2.
I don't think I have to talk about Key or Fevered Visions. I feel everyone is very familiar with how good those cards are. I think the same with Reunion and Voice. One card that deserves some mention when I talk about my deck, and probably some mention on this thread is Collective Defiance. This card has just been so great. I think what's impressed me the most is the versatility. When I need removal, it's removal. When I need to go to the face, it goes there. When I need to wheel a weak hand or dig deeper into the deck, it does it. And most importantly, it can do all of those things together if need be. This card is great, and if your zombie list is red, it should be a card you should look into.
In the sideboard, it should be pretty clear what's going on. Against aggro lists, I bring in more removal, K's-Return and EDF for sweeping. Against combo, more counterspells. Then bounce and artifact destruction for getting rid of troublesome permanents.
The deck does very well. I would love to get some fresh eyes and fresh opinions. Thanks for the help guys.
Have you tried fateful showdown? I was playing an izzet deck (not zombies) that ran cathartic reunion and I found 1-2 of fateful showdown excellent in the deck. Particularly with the cat combo needing instant interaction. I won a decent amount of games with showdown to your face for 6 untap showdiwn + fiery temper take 9.
I love that masterpiece has a home, but I fell that it may be better as a 3 of. You will be churning your deck quite a bit so it is easy to get there. A singleton stichwing skabb may be the ticket.
Have you tried Shreds of Sanity? That card was on and off amazing/bad for me.
And if you are going midrangy/control Big Chandra could have a place.
Has anybody tried the B/R list from mtggoldfish today?
fateful showdown is nice card but situational, i like tried but think what is better chandra torch of defiance.
Shreds of Sanity is poor card for reason instant y sorcery same time en graveyard, is slow.
Tormenting Voice > Shreds of Sanity , for this deck.
Sorry for my english is bad
I hadn't thought about Fateful Showdown. I feel like the slot it would be competing with will be Collective Defiance. I think Defiance is better because I don't always want to wheel my hand, and it gives me the option. Also, aside from the early parts of the game, I don't think I hold more than 4 cards in hand (discard to revive zombies is card hungry lol). I'm still gonna check it out though. It may be a good replacement for some other card. I've had that happen a few times with this deck as it's evolved. Thinking it would go in 1 slot only to have it taking another.
I haven't tried Shreds of Sanity, but I don't think it's a direction I'll go. It seems very situational. Eh, screw it. I'll check that out too.
For Chandras, I think they would work well in the list. I just don't have any, and I'm not really looking to spend on them. Jace might be a good fit too. But, they're outside what I want to spend.
The Masterpieces have been great. The only time I've ever felt that I've wanted a Stitchwing Skaab over a Masterpiece is on turn 3. But I've found that having all Masterpieces and no Skaabs outweighs that 1 turn of want. It's entirely possible that having a 2/2 split might be better since I'll have more ability to revive a 3rd turn zombie while being able to decide to go big later in the game. It's something to think about.
5-0 decks from the first Competative League post Aether Revolt on MTGO is up. And I must say im quite supprized to see 2 R/B Zombie lists there, because I thought the copter loss was too big. As it seems thought it has instantspeed interaction vs catcombo, and Voldaren Flip is good vs B/G (probobly better now since people doesnt play Ishkanah as much as before). I dont know how we beat tokens yet, but then again I havent playtested at all post Aether revolt.
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Haunted Dead
4x Smuggler's Copter
4x Scrapheap Scrounger
3x Voldaren Pariah
1x Distended Mindbender
4x Cathartic Reunion
1x Unlicensed Disintegration
1x Lightning Axe
3x Nahiri, the Harbinger
4x Smoldering Marsh
4x Foreboding Ruins
7x Swamp
4x Mountain
3x Inspiring Vantage
1x Concealed Courtyard
Again the sideboard was far from set up. Not even going to post it. Consisted mostly of more spot removal 2x Unlicensed Disintegration 2x Lighning Axe. Biggest thing there was 2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. Kalitas was absolutely bonkers. I actually forgot how good he can be. Most of the time I just used Nahiri to dig, then set up just putting a hasted Pariah for an extra 5 damage to close it out. So this has got me thinking about what could be good if this was properly built. Thoughts?
Game 2 turn 4 Distended Mindbender on the play wrecked him.
Game 3, I mulled to 6, kept a Mindbender hand with Pariah and Amalgam and proceeded to flood hard. This is one where had those mountains been Spirebluff Canal's, I would have won. Instead, I had no play until hard cast Pariah.
2 Cryptbreaker
2 Bomat Courier
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Prized Amalgam
1 Pia Nalar
4 Haunted Dead
4 Voldaren Pariah
4 Fiery Temper
3 Unlicensed Disintegration
4 Smuggler's Copter
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smouldering Marsh
10 Swamp
5 Mountain
1 Lightning Axe
2 Collective Brutality
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Unlicensed Disintegration
3 Lost Legacy
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Distended Mindbender
Modern: UW Spirits
I know a guy that won an PPTQ with a similar list.
After taking it for a spin myself I'm impressed. 3-2, 4-1, 4-1 on modo friendly leagues, with two of the match losses down to time. There's a lot of moving pieces and I'm still not sure I'm even sideboarding right.
For reference, the list is this:
6 Island
6 Mountain
4 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Spirebluff Canal
4 Wandering Fumarole
Creatures
4 Advanced Stitchwing
4 Elder Deep-Fiend
3 Filigree Familiar
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Stitchwing Skaab
4 Wretched Gryff
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Tormenting Voice
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Lightning Axe
1 Filigree Familiar
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Lightning Axe
4 Fevered Visions
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Negate
4 Spell Shrivel
You can blitz people out early. I had one game with the dream of turn two cathartic reunion discarding skaab and amalgam, then turn three bring back skaab with three amalgams.
You can grind out UR control. I actually won one game when I never resolved a spell. A countered tormenting voice got a skaab in the yard and he and the amalgam in my hand went to work.
You can throw haymakers. The Elder Deep-Fiend -> Kozilek flashback is amazing. Sometimes you can even tack a rebuy of all of your amalgams on top of it. Chaining deep-fiends with the Sanctum can also be backbreaking.
You have tricks out of nowhere. Opponent activates copter so you activate a stitchwing in the yard, pitching K-return and amalgam, then emerging a deep-fiend through the stitchwing. The board is wrathed, your amalgam comes back end of turn, and you get to tap all of their lands during combat.
Sometimes you get a clunky hand where things don't really come together but the red card draw helps smooth things out. They are kind of terrifying to use against a deck deploying islands but the general strategy is so good against counterspells that it balances out. It's a real brain teaser to play and I found it quite fun.
Overall the deck does everything I want to be doing. You can bring early pressure and get the occasional free win off the god hand blitz. You can grind out a long game. You can turn games around with over the top haymakers. You can interact with your opponent, killing creatures and (post sideboard) countering spells. I think it has legit game against the top decks in the format and I had fun playing it.
6 Island
6 Mountain
4 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Spirebluff Canal
4 Wandering Fumarole
Creatures
4 Advanced Stitchwing
4 Elder Deep-Fiend
3 Filigree Familiar
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Stitchwing Skaab
4 Wretched Gryff
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Tormenting Voice
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Lightning Axe
1 Filigree Familiar
1 Fiery Temper
1 Lightning Axe
4 Fevered Visions
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Negate
4 Spell Shrivel
Round 1: BG Delirium (2-0)
Opening hand is a bit speculative: prized amalgam, gryff, tormenting voice, double cathartic reunion, island, sanctum of ugin. It's primed to explode if I get a red source in the first few turns, so I keep.
I'm on the play, my first few draws are: island, then lightning axe, then wandering fumarole. Opponent casts Vessel of Nascency turn one, cracks turn two, plays another turn three, nothing turn 4. I break the durdle stalemate on turn 5 by reunioning an amalgam and advanced stitchwing away, drawing into an untapped land. His turn 5 is Ishkanah with delirium. I bring back the zombies during his turn. My turn I lightning axe ishkanah, attack (no blocks), and upgrade the amalgam and stitchwing into gryffs, cracking sanctum for Elder Deep-Fiend.
He grasps away both Gryffs. My turn I tormenting voice, then bring back the zombies pitching lands during his turn. This time he blocks to kill the amalgam. I play sanctum. During his upkeep I upgrade the stitchwing into an edf, tapping his lands, then pitch my remaining two cards to buy back the zombies again. Sanctum brings another EDF. Opponent has had enough and concedes.
For the sideboard I bring in Fevered Visions, shaving gryffs and voices.
On the draw my hand is much less explosive. Two Filigree Familiars, Advanced Stitchwing, and four land. One of them is Wandering Fumarole and I feel pretty good about the familiar's ability to buy time so I keep. I rip an EDF. Opponent transgresses turn two and takes filigree familiar. Turn three he lost legacies away advanced stitchwing. I cathartic reunion stitchwing skaab into the yard and draw into an amalgam so I'm feeling good. He lost legacies again for EDF. I go ahead and drop turn 4 fevered visions. He picks the brain and snags my amalgam. I play filigree familiar, next turn another fevered visions. He murders my familiar and hits me with a grim flayer. I get k-return into the yard, flash it back with Wretched Gryff, and he can't beat the Fevered Visions from there.
My opponent's hands were not great and I'm not sure he made good sideboard decisions, but I think the deck honestly matches up well against BG if you don't get flayer-blitzed. The flashbacked K-return is brutal for them, Liliana is very meh against us, and the recurring zombies are tough on them. They also can't blow us out by countering our draw spells.
Round 2: UW Flash (2-0)
I have the nut draw. 3 lands, advanced stitchwing, prized amalgam, and two cathartic reunions. I even have Wretched Gryff to upgrade my dudes. The only thing better would be adding an EDF. I'm on the draw but he runs a smuggler's copter out turn two so I have free rein for hugs. I probably would have cast it anyway but it's nice to know for sure you're getting three new cards. I draw into another amalgam and he does nothing turn 3. Turn 4 second main the zombies come out to play. I beat down. My attempt to upgrade an amalgam into a gryff gets rebuffed but I don't even care. He stasis snares my advanced stitchwing on the next attack (going to 8). I voice a stitchwing into the yard. He plays Thalia, I bring back the zombies and lightning axe Thalia for the concession. I had edf in hand and a sanctum in play as well.
Sideboard is +1 axe +1 fiery temper -2 gryff.
Game two I have tormenting voice and a stitchwing skaab, snap keep. I draw into amalgam. My tormenting voice to pitch the stitchwing gets negated. He follows up with Thalia. His turn 4 he swings and plays copter, I bring back my team. My hand is three lightning axes and a gryff, he has three cards in hand. I swing in and ship the turn. He plays Gisela and stays back to block. I axe her, untap, and axe thalia. She crews the copter and I go ahead and swing. Copter trades off with the amalgam and I upgrade the stitchwing into a Gryff. He has another Thalia and dec stone for the gryff (down to one card in hand). I crack the clue and ship the turn. He plays Thraben inspector. The inspector and thalia both die to K-return (suggesting his final card isn't Avacyn). I swing with the Fumarole and discover the final card is a spell queller that comes down to block.
He makes a westvale abbey token and then I get to live the dream: bring back stitchwing, emerge edf, flashback k-return, and swing with edf + amalgam + fumarole for the kill.
UW can be tricky between countermagic, Avacyn, and selfless spirit. I also dodged Gideon both games. That said, flashing back K-return does good work (if they play Avacyn you can decline it and try again later) and the existence of EDF makes protecting Gideon tough for them. The zombie spin cycle (amalgam/stitchwing + emerge) happens at instant speed and they have a hard time blowing you out. Even if they have stasis snare or dec stone they have to worry about EDF emerge busting their play. The main thing is not getting your axes or your draw spells quellered.
Round 3: UW Panharmonicon (2-0)
I start out with two tormenting voices, a lightning axe, and no action. I actually like the hand since the draw power is so good. I axe his turn three reflector mage and pitch k-return, a land, and stitchwing skaab to my own spells. No amalgam shows up. Meanwhile he runs out a copter and an Eldrazi Displacer. I hard cast advanced stitchwing, which eats a stasis snare. I keep drawing land and draw spells, eventually getting a filigree familiar in play with wretched gryff in hand. He plays another copter and a glint nest crane (which whiffs even after being displaced). I gryff through familiar to flash back k-return and wipe his board with no cards in hand. He rips drowner of hope to tap my gryff and beat me to 4 with his copters. I have an amalgam and bring back stitchwing and an amalgam (he's at 18). Lightning axe takes out the drowner, team swings for 9, edf blanks his attack phase, opp concedes.
I side out most of the red draw spells for fevered visions and a couple negates. I'm not sure if the focus should be on keeping panharmonicon off the board or on killing his team. I lean towards killing his team (especially displacer) with a couple miser's negates just in case.
Game two my opening hand is zombies, land, and a fevered visions. He runs out an early copter and crews it with a crane. I drop the fevered visions. My hard cast stitchwing skaab gets spell shriveled and he continues the beats. I axe his displacer. His turn he plays panharmonicon while I bring back advanced stitchwing and an amalgam.
I'm at 6, he's at 14, and k-return is in the yard. He has thraben inspector, glint nest crane, copter, and three cards in hand. I run out another fevered visions and keep my team back to block. The visions draw me into an EDF. He plays a reflector mage. The double trigger forces me to EDF before he crews his copter. The k-return flashback kills his team and the edf taps down his lands. I get another EDF off sanctum while he uses floated mana to stasis snare the kraken. He reflector mages next turn to crew the copter. I bring back stitchwing and sac it to edf, triggering my other sanctum and all the amalgams... and get blown out with Summary Dismissal. He beats me down to 3. My turn I hard cast stitchwing. He plays sky sovereign, I negate it. He crews his copter, I axe it. Fevered Visions gets him down to 6 and the stitchwing and fumarole swing in for the win.
Lesson learned: respect summary dismissal and let amalgam triggers resolve before casting edf with emerge.
Matchup thoughts: UW Panharmonicon is a real deck. It does some cool things and can go infinite. It can also get you pretty good for value with stuff like Thought-Knot Seer and Displacer. Even more so with Panharmonicon running. We can keep it under control to some degree with k-return and axes and ideally put them under some early pressure out of the yard. As usual the recurring zombies and EDF are a hassle for them to deal with. Reflector mage on Prized Amalgam is not super exciting for them.
Round 4: UB Control/Summonings (2-1)
Game one my hand is zombies, land, and edf. I managed to draw into a cathartic return and sneak it by the counter shield to get stitchwing and advanced stitchwing into the yard. I get greedy and go for a second reunion (pitching stitchwing and amalgam) and get spell shriveled. He lands summonings on his turn 6 while I bring back my zombies to start the beats.
My next attack (familiar, stitchwing, amalgam) runs into a gearhulk and a 4/4 token. I emerge edf post combat to cash in one k-return out of the yard and kill the hulk. He murders the kraken. From there he's able to use removal spells to kill my zombies, accumulate tokens, and beat me down. I was waiting to draw an eldrazi and flash back the remaining k-return but it never happens. I scoop to the next gearhulk.
I think I punted this one with the second reunion. If I had just spent the turn reanimating the zombies I already had I probably could have beat him down before he got the summonings working. I kind of thought he was ub zombies after he didn't counter the first one but that was still just greedy of me.
Game two I get an early reunion pitching advanced stitchwing. He transgresses, taking fevered visions over amalgam. I bring the team back on his turn three. The stitchwing eats a grasp, the amalgam beats in and then upgrades into a Gryff. The Gryff got in a hit and then on my next end of turn when he tapped out to glimmer I brought back the team (I feared summary dismissal). He drops metallurgic summonings turn 5 and I animate fumarole to swing and beat him down to one life. Next turn he murdered one dude, which I allowed. When he essence extracted another I emerged edf and tapped down his tokens, allowing the remaining attacker to finish the job.
Lesson learned from the first game: one early stitchwing + amalgam is plenty to get the beats rolling.
Game three we play lands and stare at each other for a while. I have two spell shrivels in hand. I go over hand size turn five and pitch an advanced stitchwing. On his end of turn I animate it, pitching two other stitchwings. I attack. He lets it resolve and goes for end of turn gearhulk, which I shrivel.
He untaps and plays an awakened ruinous path (!) to kill my zombie. I drop fevered visions while he's tapped out. He hits me with his island. Next turn when he goes to hit I animate the zombie, pitching k-return. He grasps it (not sure why), and I emerge the EDF and buy back k-return to kill his land. Sanctum is bringing another edf and my edf is tapping all his lands. He scoops.
I think we're big favorites in this matchup. One for one kill spells aren't great against zombies and fevered visions is a total bomb out of the board.
Round 5: Mardu Vehicles (2-0)
I win the die roll and my opening hand has a k-return, so I felt pretty good once I saw what he was playing. He does have incendiary flow to eat my filigree familiar and gets his toolcraft exemplar beating in while I churn through my deck. No amalgam shows up, but I do get a zombie in my yard and some eldrazi in my hand. I'm at 13 when the front half of the k-return eats two toolcraft exemplars. The next turn the back half gets his cultivator's caravan thanks to zombie -> emerge shenanigans. The edf, zombie, and fumarole take it home from there.
Game two I have Spirebluff Canal, two sanctums, three draw spells, fiery temper, and edf. I have to reunion away one of the sanctums but I do hit another red source. Next turn I reunion an amalgam and fiery temper, killing his thalia (his scrapheap scrounger I leave alone). He gets a veteran motorist out. I play filigree familiar to block. It gets flowed, so I axe the veteran, pitching another amalgam. Next turn I voice away a stitchwing skaab. I try playing another filigree familiar, but it eats a ceremonious rejection. He beats me down to 10 with his scrounger and plays another scrounger. My next familiar sticks.
On his next attack I block with the familiar, going to 9. He plays smuggler's copter, going hellbent with a scrounger in play and another in the yard. I bring back stitchwing and two amalgams, leaving me with Gryff and EDF in hand. I still only have one blue source available. The team beats in for 9 and I upgrade the stitchwing into a Gryff. I use sanctum to get another Gryff. The Gryff on board gets unlicensed disintegrated (using up his aether hub with no other black mana available to animate his scrapheap) and he beats me down to three. I k-return away his scrounger and hit him to 5, upgrading an amalgam into a gryff. He draws and scoops.
Overall this matchup feels terrific if you have a k-return and a little scary otherwise. Lightning axe, fiery temper, and filigree familiar all do good work as does, of course, elder deep-fiend. Getting an amalgam going means that when we do turn the corner we turn it very fast, swinging for 6-10 points of damage at a time.
6 Mountain
7 Island
4 Spirebluff Canal
4 Highland Lake
Zombies
4 Stitchwing Skaab
4 Advanced Stitchwing
4 Prized Amalgam
Emerge
2 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Elder Deep-Fiend
3 Kozilek's Return
4 Minister of Inquiries
1 Contingency Plan
4 Cathartic Reunion
2 Tormenting Voice
3 Lightning Axe
Other
3 Unsubstantiate
1 Fevered Visions
4 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Fevered Visions
4 Galvanic Bombardment
1 Unsubstantiate
2 Weaver of Lightning
The original 3rd place tourney deck had the plan of supporting endless zombies with Fevered Visions and was probably (somewhat correctly) predicting a field full of draw-go control. This is what the deck preys upon in a most obvious and brain-dead way. The zombies are not "played" but rather etb via abilities, which sidesteps counters, and the amalgams are plainly daft against some of the removal. So if the enemy is UR whatever or anything truly slow and clunky, the deck generally works. If it's anything which relies desperately on an artifact like Marvel, Reservoir or whatever, you sideboard counters and you prey on that too. Discarding via red spells lets you discard in a way which dodges counterspells (part of a cost), which is, in fact, the only real pro of it, but it kinda makes you better at what you're allready good at (and techincally it's the only thing the deck is really, truly good at).
However, the field online isn't remotely full of draw go, but seems to be the opposite, and I walked into 3 beatings in a row vs. RG energy aggro and BG midrange. They both have better dudes, playing Fevered Visions vs. them seems to be impossible, and they're not really afraid of Kozilek's Return. Folks over at the RG thread talk about Longtusk Cub being disposable and taking it out - you just can't get it out of the way and the real threats start showing up too fast, while your zombies are coming into play tapped. The BG guy just stalls until it draws either Noxious Gearhulk or Emrakul or Liliana and you get the picture. Gearhulk on Octopus just ends the match unless you have a crafty way of getting it out of the way, which is why I have all the Unsubstantiates in there. Scratch that, the deck is also vulnerable to Declaration in Stone on the amalagms, and you don't really want to be using the Octopus as a response to stuff because if you do there's nothing to push you through blockers or shut down the other guy.
Also, both stitchwings feel so inferior to Haunted Dead it's not even funny. The little guy has very little toughness, while the big guy costs 3, which isn't nearly as fast as the aggro decks demand you to be. Highland Lake is what I play in place of Wandering Fumarole for budget reasons, but I've literally lost games on turn 1 which I would have won otherwise because it comes into play tapped (would be the sem for Fumarole). Also, the deck is highly unlikely to be able to get mana for the Fumarole, because of dumping all the cards into scab reanimation. It's a great card and all that, and I bet I'd be doing better if I coughed up the money for them because of that one game where I get to activate it and it means something, but I'd still be paying money for something that will far more often screw me over due to mandatory CiP tapped. IDK if going Aether Hub is actually viable, because you do need a reliable UU for the octopus and you constantly need colored mana AND there's Sanctum of Ugin (the OG build only ran 2, I'm frankly terrified of running more due to mana screw potential).
If your reanimation costs three mana it WILL trip you up and make you lose tempo, which you don't rally have against anything with aggressive dudes. The damned thing looks great, but if a non-headache grixis manabase was possible I think it'd be best for the deck to run 4X Stitchwing Skab 4X Haunted Dead and then maybe 2X Advanced Stitchwing.
Elder Deep Fiend is great when it's great but not that great, in fact, not even with Kozilek's Return. Harnessed Lightning in many decks just kills it in response to the tapdown, and instead of being a large monster it just ends up being a chump-blocker to some powered up 20/20 RG thing. It's only big when they throw Noxious Gearhulk lifegain at it.
IDK if the version you guys have been running is superior. I'm not happy with the red discard, to be perfectly honest, because what tends to happen is that I have to play ASAP it because I can't wait or I'll die, but I don't have anything in hand that needs discarding, but then I draw stuff that needs discarding with it. I mean, it's good for filtering cards, that it is, but games where I start with Minister of Inquiries tend to work out waaaaay better for me. In fact, I've played against some Sultai full-on self-mill variant (Minister, Hourglass thingy, Grapple with the Past) which makes this deck look like a complete joke. You don't really want to be discarding things, because if you get any 1 of the self-reanimators in the grave, you'll easily discard whatever you want, and getting the amalgam into the grave directly is much better than drawing him, so self-mill is practically card draw.
All in all - too many "ifs". There's probably a rather good Grixis version which makes use of all the best components of the three decks. I don't think Voldaren Pariah even needs madness, honestly, I think you just need it in the zombie deck to be cast for 5 mana and flipped to wrath the other guy. The octopus just isn't getting it done for me. It's effect is temporary, it takes sacrificing something to put it into play, and this actually sets you back 2 cards (to get a mediocre at best card back)
For this deck, I'm beginning to think you could serious win games by chaining Contingency Plan which get you Unsubstantiates in hand and zombies in the yard. In fact, the only obvious advantage of the red discard is that it's uncounterable and doesn't actually cost you a card. But it's possible that Contingency Plan is just straight up better for zombies.
I'll have to try the version with the Filigree Familiar. I'm not sure about 4 Hipogriffs, though.
Obviously the opponent can affect your game plan but Lightning Axe and the back half of K-return take care of most things. If you've been applying pressure the EDF tap down can deal with stuff that damage doesn't kill. If you don't have pressure and they have the whole Selfless Spirit/Avacyn package rolling then you're probably going to have a bad time. They do have to set up the invulnerability before you decide on the K-return trigger so sometimes you can run them out of them if you have enough Eldrazi.
Chaining Deep-Fiends is so good that I think it justifies the full play set of Sanctums by itself. The hidden value of the Wretched Gryff is that it lets you pop the sanctum and summon the kraken.
The Fumarole is nice for slamming the door shut after you clear the board. In general five land total is where you want to be as it lets you reanimate and emerge a deep fiend all in one go. Note that the net cost for reanimate -> emerge is the same for either stitchwing.
The deck can be very swingy but I would give the CFB list a few tries before making tweaks.
Modern: UW Spirits
This was actually handy advice. The unintuitive, yet completely obvious in hindsight, thing about the deck that it's very lousy when it comes to card advantage. I even knew this and wanted to warn folks it mulligans horribly (Folks, it mulligans horribly! You're likely better off filling up your hand to 8 and dicsarding a scab than mulling down to 5!). However this really means you have to try to get as much mileage out of the emerge as possible, meaning use it in response to removal. But you still have to read the opponent and really make the upkeep plays happen when they must. Skill intensive, I have to say.
Still, just Lightning Axe and the turn 2 red discard is just too much of a luck based plan for a deck which, as I said, mulligans horribly. Not just "What if I don't draw it?", but also "What if I don't draw anything I want to discard?" (Really, this happens quite often, especially post sideboard. You only really want to discard either of the two scabs, the rest are either ok, or just cycling.) I did a league just now with 3 Magistrates and 2 Neonates and they do help things out. The Magistrates help out with Amalgams, and for a deck which kinda relies on drawing amalgams there's just too many games where I don't see any (I've noted at least 4 where I've drawn over half my deck and not seen 1).
I'll look into a copy or two of Nahiri's Wrath I think. The deck has issues with early onslaughts AND wants to liberally discard stuff with inflated mana cost. Doesn't do much to help with the copter, but ought to work wonders against Gideon, and there's a lot of cycling in the deck anyway.
Also, what exactly do you guys side Fevered Visions against? Aggro seems like it'd be nonsense, and there's plenty of it around, combo seems like it'd be suicide (on the draw you have to have 3 untapped mana and a counter ASAP or you're just dead). I can't really think of too many decks where I'd go and say "Great, I have fevered visions, that's what I'll side to mess him up!". I'm asking because I could use the sideboard slots to shore up against things that are beating me up.
The main problem are the cip-tapped lands, really, the deck (no Familiar version) is stupidly slow when it needs to react to things (needs setup to even cast anything, everything comes into play tapped), and when you get stuck with the CiP tapped lands at the wrong moment, you just can't tapdance around the removal. I did actually kill a Mardu Vehicles guy by stablilizing at 3 and 1 life respectively and pulling shennanigans with the squids, the potential power is deffinitely there, it's just that the deck trips itself up rather often and there's gotta be a way to make it more stable. I feel like it's somehow very vulnerable to the copter, probably because my previous deck just packed Harnessed Lightning and Fiery Temper and the gameplan involved turn 2 or 3 being reserved just for dealing with the copter by design. Fiery Temper just doesn't sit right with me in this deck, somehow. Avacyn, funnily enough, tends to regularly eat the Lightning Axe in response to her trigger for blowouts, because by the time she hits I'm likely not stuck fiddling with the setup.
Oh, I'm deffinitely sold on this. I'm getting the hang of the octopus and DA PLAYS are epic and spectacular, I have to say. I'm still on 2 sanctums but I'll deffinitely bump asap.
Yep, I played a bunch today and paid attention to the board in terms of "would having the fumarole instead of the lake help me now" and there were a bunch of situations where it would. The most common type of situation is not so much after a wipe but when having a dude out would cost you a card you don't have and you've tapped the other guy down with the Octopus. This comes up a LOT vs. Marvel and other combo, where I'm seemingly always those 3-4 damage short for some reason and have to make mad plays and gamble when if I had a fumarole it'd kill the other guy. Pricy, but I have to get them.
Yeah, I'll definitely give the list a whirl, I'm curious if the Familiar helps vs. aggro.
I've also learned one more thing - I have no idea how to beat combo without siding in 8 counters. For the league I went with 2 Spell Shrivel and 2 Negate main deck and the same in the board, because there's nothing else I can do, and it actually worked because I lucked out and drew them a lot (like 6 or 7 out of total 8). Paradoxicaly, the counters tend to also work against some of the aggro, as you kinda just have to counter their removal or they'll wipe you off the board. The deck feels like it should have a game vs. combo, but it doesn't without boarding in a ton of counters, because you need setup to do anything (play dudes, do damage) and the other guy needs setup to instantly kill you. You're only an aggro deck if you luck out with the amalgams, and the only thing oyur guys have going for them is evasion, which they don't have vs. Iskhanah, the little guy loses combat to Pilgrims Eye (really, also your own Kozilek's Return ). Really, whether you'll be able to apply any pressure at all vs. a goldfish is completely random with this deck, probably even more so for folks who don't run one drops. The decks I lost to were the panharmonicon value deck (1-2) and an Aetherworks Marvel one (2-0).
Isolent Neonate is up there with Thraben Inspector in terms of how great he is. He can also deal a boatload of damage, it's true. I'm considering 2 copies of Bomat for the UR version, but the chance of him swiping Amalgams and then getting them permanently lost is horrifying.
4 Grasp of Darkness
1 Grapple with the Past
1 Collective Brutality
1 Key to the City
4 Smuggler's Copter
//creatures 26
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Haunted Dead
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Voldaren Pariah
4 Noose Constrictor
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Catacomb Sifter
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Hissing Quagmire
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Forest
11 Swamp
1 Collective Brutality
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Lost Legacy
1 Key to the City
2 Dead Weight
2 Natural State
1 Distended Mindbender
1 Ghirapur Orrery
2 Ruinous Path
Heir of Falkenrath: Same cost and still a 3-power flying threat discard outlet, but you just get to discard once and you don't get a card in return.
Olivia's Dragoon: Very similar to the heir, it lets you discard as many times as you want but you also lose a point of power.
Key to the City: What I mean is playing a full playset. I'm not a fan of this one since it's not a threat on its own and is bad in multiples (you'll end up discarding this instead of what you really want to discard).
Collective Brutality: Very versatile, but again, not a threat on its own.
Reckless Racer: It's slow and doesn't fly, but you get to loot on attacking, which is very similar to what Copter does. Not sure how relevant is first strike on a 2/3 body.
Pale Rider of Trostad: Same cost, same P/T, also evasive, but you can just discard once and not at will.
Call the Bloodline: Already a good sideboard card. You can discard at instant speed, it gives you something in return when you discard, but again it's bad in multiples.
Mad Prophet: The truest looter we have, he can loot for free right after being played but 4 mana is a lot.
Bomat Courier: I think this is not the best deck for this card, but still...
Other possible ways involve switching from red to green (Noose Constrictor) or even blue (Wharf Infiltrator), but I think I'd rather keep playing the red removals.
What do you think?
EDIT: Well, it's also possible that we don't even need another discard outlet since we have plenty of them (Insolent Neonate, Cryptbreaker, Cathartic Reunion, Haunted Dead and Lightning Axe). Or maybe we could get by just rounding up numbers (like playing a fourth Neonate, a third Lightning Axe and a couple of other things).
I totally missed the Implement, but anyway, wouldn't Key to the City be better?
Yea, I was already running a key
This is the list after changing it last night:
4 Wharf Infiltrator
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Eternal Scourge
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Voldaren Pariah
Planeswalkers 3
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Artifacts 2
2 Key to the City
Enchantments 1
1 Call the Bloodline
2 Collective Brutality
Instant 8
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Murder
2 Altar's Reap
2 Negate
Land 22
4 Choked Estuary
4 Sunken Hollow
2 Aether Hub
10 Swamp
2 Island
2 To the Slaughter
1 Negate
2 Lost Legacy
2 Dispel
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Ruinous Path
2 Horribly Awry
2 Ceremonious Rejection
The idea is obviously to use the Infiltrator to get down a T3 Pariah, then either fill the graveyard with the Amalgams, Scroungers and Scourges while putting out Eldrazi Horror tokens, or cast the creatures, sac them to Pariah and bring them all back again. Literally one of each of the three will just keep them all coming back over and over again. Drives the opponent nuts. Kalitas is there because he and Pariah get along nicely, giving him three Zombies. Key is a spare discard outlet, as is Bloodline. Liliana clears the way for the infiltrator and kills off small stuff, Ob helps with late game card draw, as does the Reap, as I found a certain lack of options in the late game, but less without the Haunted Dead.
So, no Haunted Dead. I just felt it did nothing. Its only use was to bring back the Amalgams, but it could never be used for blocking. Block, die, back in the graveyard. The main problem with the deck is the lack of a finisher, but Liliana can help with that if you have the Amalgams out especially as you ultimate her.
The sideboard is just aimed at disrupting various decks and combos, especially stopping things like Bristling Hydra.
I don't know if there's anything in Aether Revolt that will help it, other than Disallow. My main problems are stopping gearhulks and big stuff, using green and red instants to make silly things with trample and counters. Things I have been considering are either putting in a couple of the Haunted Dead or alternatively Stitchwing Skaab which has a bit more of an upside or even Advanced Stitchwing, which I find is a bit too expensive; Elder Deep-Fiend in Kalitas' place, although there's a good case against it further up; Sinister Concoction instead of Murder, although this could force you to have to discard something you want to hold on to; and Contingency Plan if I can cut something else. But I'm open to discussion... Yahenni's Expertise seems a good sideboarder, as is Fatal Push and possibly Yahenni, Undying Partisan himself. Although I'm really disappointed the black mana gearhulk wasn't something that would in some way interact with the "scrapheap"/graveyard.
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Insolent Neonate
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Voldaren Pariah
4 Haunted Dead
Spells (15)
2 Heart of Kiran
2 Unlicensed Disintegration
4 Cathartic Reunion
1 Key to the City
2 Lightning Axe
4 Fiery Temper
4 Foreboding Ruins
4 Smoldering Marsh
10 Swamp
5 Mountain
1 Destructive Tampering
1 Unlicensed Disintegration
1 Key to the City
2 Lost Legacy
3 Distended Mindbender
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Shock
So he basically replaced our dear Copters with 1x Key to the City, 1x Unlicensed Disintegration and 2x Heart of Kiran. He also removed 1x Insolent Neonate and added an additional land, but the rest is the same.
As for the sideboard, I don't really get the reasoning behind Destructive Tampering. No Collective Brutality seems also weird to me. Shock was an obvious inclusion.
Anyway, is nice to see the deck is still somewhat viable even without Copters.
I've been playing those discard-to-revive zombies since SOI (grixis then) and switched to Izzet when Advanced Stitchwing was introduced in EMN. I've actually went all in on dumping zombies in the GY and bringing them back, so much so that a kid at my LGS has dubbed my deck "Standard Dredge." I don't play modern, and I haven't cast a dredge card since Ravnica block, but I think that's praise.
4 Advanced Stitchwing
4 Geralf's Masterpiece
4 Prized Amalgam
Enchantments 2
2 Fevered Visions
Artifacts 2
2 Key to the City
Instants 9
4 Broken Concentration
3 Fiery Temper
2 Lightning Axe
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Collective Defiance
4 Tormenting Voice
Lands 23
4 Drownyard Temple
4 Island
7 Mountain
4 Spirebluff Canal
4 Wandering Fumarole
2 Elder Deep-Fiend
3 Compelling Deterrence
1 Fiery Temper
3 Kozilek's Return
2 Negate
2 Summary Dismissal
2 Release the Grimlins
One question I always get is "why Broken Concentration instead of <insert Counterspell here>?" The only answer is the madness. Sometimes it's relevant.
I used to run Stitchwing Skaab for a very very long time with this list. It was good, especially back when I could get it out turn 2 with Insolent Neonate, but since I switched that slot to Geralf's Masterpiece and went midrange, this deck has been much stronger. The biggest problem I found with Skaab is it didn't survive in combat. It died so easily. I felt like I was reviving and reviving and reviving, and not getting much value. On balance, I've felt that as much as Masterpiece survives longer than skaab, I've come out ahead in cards even though Masterpiece costs me 3 instead of 2.
I don't think I have to talk about Key or Fevered Visions. I feel everyone is very familiar with how good those cards are. I think the same with Reunion and Voice. One card that deserves some mention when I talk about my deck, and probably some mention on this thread is Collective Defiance. This card has just been so great. I think what's impressed me the most is the versatility. When I need removal, it's removal. When I need to go to the face, it goes there. When I need to wheel a weak hand or dig deeper into the deck, it does it. And most importantly, it can do all of those things together if need be. This card is great, and if your zombie list is red, it should be a card you should look into.
In the sideboard, it should be pretty clear what's going on. Against aggro lists, I bring in more removal, K's-Return and EDF for sweeping. Against combo, more counterspells. Then bounce and artifact destruction for getting rid of troublesome permanents.
The deck does very well. I would love to get some fresh eyes and fresh opinions. Thanks for the help guys.
I love that masterpiece has a home, but I fell that it may be better as a 3 of. You will be churning your deck quite a bit so it is easy to get there. A singleton stichwing skabb may be the ticket.
Have you tried Shreds of Sanity? That card was on and off amazing/bad for me.
And if you are going midrangy/control Big Chandra could have a place.
fateful showdown is nice card but situational, i like tried but think what is better chandra torch of defiance.
Shreds of Sanity is poor card for reason instant y sorcery same time en graveyard, is slow.
Tormenting Voice > Shreds of Sanity , for this deck.
Sorry for my english is bad
I haven't tried Shreds of Sanity, but I don't think it's a direction I'll go. It seems very situational. Eh, screw it. I'll check that out too.
For Chandras, I think they would work well in the list. I just don't have any, and I'm not really looking to spend on them. Jace might be a good fit too. But, they're outside what I want to spend.
The Masterpieces have been great. The only time I've ever felt that I've wanted a Stitchwing Skaab over a Masterpiece is on turn 3. But I've found that having all Masterpieces and no Skaabs outweighs that 1 turn of want. It's entirely possible that having a 2/2 split might be better since I'll have more ability to revive a 3rd turn zombie while being able to decide to go big later in the game. It's something to think about.
them lists:
4 Cryptbreaker
1 Distended Mindbender
4 Haunted Dead
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Voldaren Pariah
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Fiery Temper
3 Lightning Axe
4 Foreboding Ruins
6 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
9 Swamp
2 Distended Mindbender
1 Lightning Axe
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Collective Brutality
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Transgress the Mind
2 Unlicensed Disintegration
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Haunted Dead
2 Insolent Neonate
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Voldaren Pariah
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Fiery Temper
2 Lightning Axe
2 Unlicensed Disintegration
2 Key to the City
5 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
10 Swamp
1 Unlicensed Disintegration
3 Distended Mindbender
4 Galvanic Bombardment
1 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Lost Legacy
Id that!
Trade with me, h:Alters and EdhFoils:)
Cards I have altered
Maybe a board wipe and then rebuild from the graveyard with Yahenni's Expertise or into Westvale Abbey / Ormendahl, Profane Prince?