I had issues closing out games against aggressive decks. Control mirrors with UB should be easy mode, especially against UR control. They're softer on control aspects and have worse removal. The only thing they get that UB possibly wants is Cast Out, and that's only if I include Jeskai decks, which have better sweepers as well. As others have mentioned, having discard is a great mirror breaker when used properly.
UB has hand disruption and UR has more counters and man-lands. The typical control mirror is land go, land go, ...., okay let's fight. Pre-board, with more counters they are better positioned to win those fights, and with man-lands they have more angles of attack. In my experience the first game would go long and I'd lose and then I wouldn't have time to win the match after I sided in hand disruption, and I didn't have great luck resolving it. In this meta I don't want to mainboard hand disruption, so I'm switching.
UB has hand disruption and UR has more counters and man-lands. The typical control mirror is land go, land go, ...., okay let's fight. Pre-board, with more counters they are better positioned to win those fights, and with man-lands they have more angles of attack. In my experience the first game would go long and I'd lose and then I wouldn't have time to win the match after I sided in hand disruption, and I didn't have great luck resolving it. In this meta I don't want to mainboard hand disruption, so I'm switching.
Back to UR Control for the time being. My local meta is Marvel, Zombies, UR Control, UW Control, Vehicles. Lots of control mirrors happening and UR is better positioned than UB IMHO. I don't play online so I can't comment there.
I don't understand the love for Red over White. Red and Black removal are about on the same level. Red has Sweltering Suns. I will give them that. But white has better removers.
But if I were to run Red, I definitely add 2 or 3 Enigma Drake. It just gets stronger as the game goes longer. I would consider going into red for that card alone.
Fair point, UW with Approach is a great deck as well, and Immolating Glare is also strong in that deck. I like UR as it is posting good results in my meta, but my heart lies with Ezper..
Alright, ladies and gentlemen. I need a little help. I've been crushing Standard locally with GB aggro, but I've also been test U/X control on the side online at my LGS. I've arrived at an Esper variant, but I feel like it's missing something to handle Mardu properly.
It's been fairly solid across the spectrum. I love Pull from Tomorrow, but I think four might be one too many. I just don't know that I want to replace it with another Glimmer of Genius. I also feel like I'm light on win-cons. The sideboard is a bit of a mess right now.
Any constructive criticism or help would be appreciated.
First let me tell you that I am not an expert. I play esper even when it is not tier 1 because it is what I like to play. However, I think you are short 1 blue source (you have 18 sources but need 19 sources to consistently cast double blue on turn 3 for disallow/void shatter), short 2 black sources (you have 18 but need 20 to cast yahenni's expertise on turn 4), and white (you have 10 sources but you would need 13 to cast blessed alliance on turn 2, 12 to cast anguished unmaking on turn 3, and 11 to cast cast out on turn 4). I have been playing esper (UBw) through aether revolt and amonkhet and my mana is still not great (too many lands coming in tapped) and I am also thin on win cons.
I am not super happy about sorin mainboard because I am playing against temur marvel, zombies, and ur control where I play and it is too slow against marvel/zombies and gets countered against ur. I would rather play liliana (last hope) against zombies and it is great to land against ur control before they find a counter. i don't like it as much against marvel because turn 4 I am keeping mana open to counter marvel. (better on the play and worse on the draw).
I also play 4 glimmer and 3 pull. I used to play jim davis' azorius deck back in the day and glimmer is like a much worse version of dig through time and I use pull to fill up like I would with jace's ingenuity (pull is almost always much better).
Alright, ladies and gentlemen. I need a little help. I've been crushing Standard locally with GB aggro, but I've also been test U/X control on the side online at my LGS. I've arrived at an Esper variant, but I feel like it's missing something to handle Mardu properly.
It's been fairly solid across the spectrum. I love Pull from Tomorrow, but I think four might be one too many. I just don't know that I want to replace it with another Glimmer of Genius. I also feel like I'm light on win-cons. The sideboard is a bit of a mess right now.
Any constructive criticism or help would be appreciated.
Besides Sorin, why are you adding white to your UB list? Also, with 4 Pull from tomorrow (the correct number), you should nt need more than 4 win cons because you can easily find them
Because Cast Out is much better at handling non-creatures and cycles when it don't need it. Not to mention Shambling Vent is awesome.
Glyph Keeper is alright but is a bit of a joke against aggro decks. 3-toughness doesn't exactly scare anyone and it doesn't exactly affect the board. Sphinx is worthless imo. Costs too much and doesn't exactly do anything for me. When I already have control, I don't want to spend a turn getting it down. When I'm behind, it doesn't do much for me. I'd rather have Kefnet for control mirrors. It's more mana efficient and does a lot more work before Sphinx can Even get down. I imagine Glyph Pepper is better against midrange decks but I tend to face a ton of Temur Aetherworks and aggro. There are a couple control decks but I don't generally have a problem with them.
Edit: Sorry for the typos and stuff. On my cell phone.
Hi everyone. I would like to throw my own draft onto the "needs help" bonfire. Having seen what's in my meta, this is the control deck I want to try. It's not perfect, but it will change as I play it and discover what is lacking. Any obvious mishaps here please let me know, but mostly I am needing help on the land. I just can't quite get my numbers right to hit those perfect figures for all the double colours. Any thoughts? Much appreciated.
I also found Sphinx underwhelming in control mirrors. Against UW I wouldn't want to attack into Immolating Glare, and UR opponents left in Sweltering Suns and cast two in a turn to kill it. That second scenario happened to me at FNM & the PPTQ.
I also found Sphinx underwhelming in control mirrors. Against UW I wouldn't want to attack into Immolating Glare, and UR opponents left in Sweltering Suns and cast two in a turn to kill it. That second scenario happened to me at FNM & the PPTQ.
Was my assessment way off in post #1003 on your lands? I am asking because I am trying to fix my UBw manabase and maybe I am trying to run too many sources.
Was my assessment way off in post #1003 on your lands? I am asking because I am trying to fix my UBw manabase and maybe I am trying to run too many sources.
No, not according to Frank Karsten's article. However, as I've said before here and in other subforums, you also need to understand what he's trying to do. I don't care about necessarily casting anything but removal for the first three turns. The only counter magic I'm relying on through those turns are Negate (and Essence Scatter if a good opportunity presents itself). Otherwise, spells, like Disallow and Void Shatter, are there for the mid- and late-game. Early on, I just want to kill any relevant creatures, play a land and say "go." Yahenni's Expertise is largely there for tokens decks (Sam Black's Abzan tokens, Zombies and when Temur Aetherworks goes wide with Whirler Virtuoso). I don't really need to cast it on turn 4, or rather I hope I shouldn't need to do so with my setup. I have enough spot removal to get me by for a while.
Was my assessment way off in post #1003 on your lands? I am asking because I am trying to fix my UBw manabase and maybe I am trying to run too many sources.
No, not according to Frank Karsten's article. However, as I've said before here and in other subforums, you also need to understand what he's trying to do. I don't care about necessarily casting anything but removal for the first three turns. The only counter magic I'm relying on through those turns are Negate (and Essence Scatter if a good opportunity presents itself). Otherwise, spells, like Disallow and Void Shatter, are there for the mid- and late-game. Early on, I just want to kill any relevant creatures, play a land and say "go." Yahenni's Expertise is largely there for tokens decks (Sam Black's Abzan tokens, Zombies and when Temur Aetherworks goes wide with Whirler Virtuoso). I don't really need to cast it on turn 4, or rather I hope I shouldn't need to do so with my setup. I have enough spot removal to get me by for a while.
I really appreciate your insight. I always lean really hard on that article and end up with too many lands coming in tapped. This will give me more food for thought as I tweek my manabase.
What is the purpose of sorin in your deck? which deck is it good against?
Alright, ladies and gentlemen. I need a little help. I've been crushing Standard locally with GB aggro, but I've also been test U/X control on the side online at my LGS. I've arrived at an Esper variant, but I feel like it's missing something to handle Mardu properly.
It's been fairly solid across the spectrum. I love Pull from Tomorrow, but I think four might be one too many. I just don't know that I want to replace it with another Glimmer of Genius. I also feel like I'm light on win-cons. The sideboard is a bit of a mess right now.
Any constructive criticism or help would be appreciated.
Could you look at Essence Extraction? Renewed Faith?
Why Glimmer over Hieroglyphic Illumination? How has Kefnet been?
I'll give it a whirl when some of my Amonkhet cards arrive, still missing some... will let you know how it works out after that.
I had one Essence Extraction in my sideboard. It wasn't bad. I just don't know what I would want to cut from my sideboard for it now. I put Blessed Alliance in its slot. It might be better than Essence Extraction. It definitely would be if I had more issues stabilizing against aggro. Right now, I only have issues with aggressive builds of Mardu midrange (otherwise known as vehicles). Other than that, I pretty much handle everything else.
Kefnet has been rock solid against UR and UB control (the only other control decks in my LGS). I would be a bit more wary of running Kefnet out there against control decks playing white because of Anguished Unmaking and Cast Out. Even then, Sorin usually mops up.
I like Glimmer of Genius a lot. The only reason for me to run Hieroglyphic Illumination is to help me "get there" if I were playing with a lighter count on my mana base. I also want to scry away cards I don't necessarily want instead of just raw card advantage. As it stands, I generally don't have problems with getting lands or colors. Not to mention, Glimmer helps power Aether Hub.
I also found Sphinx underwhelming in control mirrors. Against UW I wouldn't want to attack into Immolating Glare, and UR opponents left in Sweltering Suns and cast two in a turn to kill it. That second scenario happened to me at FNM & the PPTQ.
Nah. Zombies and Sam Black's Abzan tokens doing their thing changed my opinion. Lots of life to be made. They should probably be something else, especially the Descend upon the Sinful, but they're the three sideboard slots I'm least sure of right now.
Just a quick report on my trial run. I made some last-minute changes to the deck. I dumped something from my sideboard for Angel of Sanctions. I added Murder in place of the main deck Commit // Memory and changed Descend upon the Sinful to Ob Nixilis Reignited. Ob Nixilis was a boss all night. I'm glad I didn't have Commit // Memory in the main deck, but Murder isn't exactly what I want either. Murder was serviceable, but I'm going to keep tinkering with that spot. Tuesday night at my LGS is "Pack per win" Standard. It's supposed to be a chance to get new people into tournament Magic that either don't feel they have a realistic chance to win prizes in a normal setup or for people new to tournament magic in general. They get to see Swiss pairings, rankings and all that jazz.
Round 1 vs Temur Aetherworks (2-1) (1-0)
Game 1 went really long but my opponent finally broke through my counter magic to land a second Ulamog for the win.
Game 3 was a repeat of game 2, but I changed up my sideboard a tad bit to be a little more proactive. I barely finished off my opponent in time on the last turn of extra turns.
Round 2 vs BW Zombies (2-1) (2-0)
Game 1, I was in control for the entirety of the game until I couldn't draw a finisher. I ended up losing. I literally saw 2/3 of my deck and couldn't find a Torrential Gearhulk or Sorin, Grim Nemesis.
Game 2, Kalitas and company come in and wreck shop. They didn't really need much help since my opponent was stuck on 2 lands for the first 4 turns. Once I untapped with Kalitas, the result was never in doubt.
Game 3 was a little closer. I kept a somewhat sketchy hand of seven cards that had 3 good late game cards. I really wanted to mulligan, but I also had two removal spells and two lands. There was a critical turn where I represented a Grasp of Darkness with only a Disallow in hand. If I had a Grasp, he knew he was dead on the crackback. If I didn't, I was dead on board. After thinking about it for a while, he passed, and I ended up closing out the game with Torrential Gearhulk, Kalitas and the Angel of Sanctions that were on board. We talked about it a bit afterwards. I did end up making a mistake on one of my attacks, but my thought process was that I needed the guaranteed life gain from Kalitas regardless of what he did on his turn. I did't realize he had man-lands that should've messed up my math. I thought in his position he needed to force me to have it then and there. He knew I had only played a couple removal spells to this point and Fatal Push and Grasp of Darkness were equally game ending. I just thought that there were fewer top decks he could get in the time my board presented for him to get out of the situation. Either way, I don't think he was necessarily "wrong" for his choice but it was interesting for sure.
Round 3 B Zombies (2-1) (3-0)
Game 1 I again control the entire game for many turns. I again cannot find a Torrential Gearhulk or Sorin to close up the game. He ends up winning when I have 22 cards left in my deck. I'm flabbergasted this occurs again.
Game 2 I kill everything and deny opponent any non-creature action. Opponent apparently switched up into a mono black control deck with Dispossess and Transgress the Mind. Opponent didn't play many creatures. Those that opponent did play died immediately. Opponent scoops to save remaining time in the round (at this point, just under 9 min).
Game 3 Opponent comes out of the gate slow while I come out hot. Opponent does nothing for the first two turns while I play a land and say go. On turns three through five, I kill everything and counter two Transgress the Mind. On my turn 5, I drop Ob Nixilis onto an empty field. Ultimate soon follows. Torrential cleans up in extra turns.
I need more threats. I'm considering Liliana, the Last Hope or Liliana, Death's Mastery. Either one would have helped win games as a top deck or an early threat, and are resilient to the current removal spells in the local metagame. Even in the online metagame, it doesn't seem that bad. I've yet to test it against GB Aggro or GR Aggro. I'm curious how much damage Hazoret the Fervent and Rhonas the Indomitable will do to me.
Also, I was wrong. Four Pull from Tomorrow is always correct. I can dump the extras if need be, but not having access to them was painful multiple times.
I've managed to borrow cards for tonights event. Here is my proposed list (basically Chaos' but changed based off the above post). I'm currently unsure as to the amount of Pulls I'll be able to borrow, so see what I can come up with.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
But if I were to run Red, I definitely add 2 or 3 Enigma Drake. It just gets stronger as the game goes longer. I would consider going into red for that card alone.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
3 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Enchantment
2 Cast Out
26 Instant
4 Grasp of Darkness
1 Anguished Unmaking
3 Negate
4 Disallow
3 Glimmer of Genius
4 Fatal Push
4 Pull from Tomorrow
2 Essence Scatter
1 Commit
3 Prairie Stream
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
3 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Island
3 Shambling Vent
2 Aether Hub
2 Fetid Pools
1 Planeswalker
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2 Sorcery
2 Yahenni's Expertise
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Baral, Chief of Compliance
1 Kefnet the Mindful
1 To the Slaughter
1 Negate
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Essence Scatter
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Summary Dismissal
1 Void Shatter
2 Fumigate
1 Descend upon the Sinful
It's been fairly solid across the spectrum. I love Pull from Tomorrow, but I think four might be one too many. I just don't know that I want to replace it with another Glimmer of Genius. I also feel like I'm light on win-cons. The sideboard is a bit of a mess right now.
Any constructive criticism or help would be appreciated.
First let me tell you that I am not an expert. I play esper even when it is not tier 1 because it is what I like to play. However, I think you are short 1 blue source (you have 18 sources but need 19 sources to consistently cast double blue on turn 3 for disallow/void shatter), short 2 black sources (you have 18 but need 20 to cast yahenni's expertise on turn 4), and white (you have 10 sources but you would need 13 to cast blessed alliance on turn 2, 12 to cast anguished unmaking on turn 3, and 11 to cast cast out on turn 4). I have been playing esper (UBw) through aether revolt and amonkhet and my mana is still not great (too many lands coming in tapped) and I am also thin on win cons.
I am not super happy about sorin mainboard because I am playing against temur marvel, zombies, and ur control where I play and it is too slow against marvel/zombies and gets countered against ur. I would rather play liliana (last hope) against zombies and it is great to land against ur control before they find a counter. i don't like it as much against marvel because turn 4 I am keeping mana open to counter marvel. (better on the play and worse on the draw).
I also play 4 glimmer and 3 pull. I used to play jim davis' azorius deck back in the day and glimmer is like a much worse version of dig through time and I use pull to fill up like I would with jace's ingenuity (pull is almost always much better).
Have you considered one Glyph Keeper or Sphinx of the Final Word main deck?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Glyph Keeper is alright but is a bit of a joke against aggro decks. 3-toughness doesn't exactly scare anyone and it doesn't exactly affect the board. Sphinx is worthless imo. Costs too much and doesn't exactly do anything for me. When I already have control, I don't want to spend a turn getting it down. When I'm behind, it doesn't do much for me. I'd rather have Kefnet for control mirrors. It's more mana efficient and does a lot more work before Sphinx can Even get down. I imagine Glyph Pepper is better against midrange decks but I tend to face a ton of Temur Aetherworks and aggro. There are a couple control decks but I don't generally have a problem with them.
Edit: Sorry for the typos and stuff. On my cell phone.
2 Torrential Gearhulk
3 Archfiend of Ifnir
Enchantments
4 Cast Out
Instants
3 Disallow
2 Essence Scatter
3 Pull from Tomorrow
1 Commit
4 Hieroglyphic Illumination
3 Grasp of Darkness
3 Censor
3 Fatal Push
4 Port Town
4 Plains
4 Island
4 Choked Estuary
2 Swamp
3 Evolving Wilds
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Fetid Pools
Planeswalker
2 Dovin Baan
Sorcery
1 Approach of the Second Sun
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
3 Forsake the Worldly
4 Negate
3 Blessed Alliance
1 Disallow
3 Fumigate
I assume you mean that you don't want to attack into Blessed Alliance. Not Immolating Glare.
More to your point, I love casting Fumigate on top of of my Kefnet. Everyone seems to forget the gods are indestructible.
Was my assessment way off in post #1003 on your lands? I am asking because I am trying to fix my UBw manabase and maybe I am trying to run too many sources.
No, not according to Frank Karsten's article. However, as I've said before here and in other subforums, you also need to understand what he's trying to do. I don't care about necessarily casting anything but removal for the first three turns. The only counter magic I'm relying on through those turns are Negate (and Essence Scatter if a good opportunity presents itself). Otherwise, spells, like Disallow and Void Shatter, are there for the mid- and late-game. Early on, I just want to kill any relevant creatures, play a land and say "go." Yahenni's Expertise is largely there for tokens decks (Sam Black's Abzan tokens, Zombies and when Temur Aetherworks goes wide with Whirler Virtuoso). I don't really need to cast it on turn 4, or rather I hope I shouldn't need to do so with my setup. I have enough spot removal to get me by for a while.
I really appreciate your insight. I always lean really hard on that article and end up with too many lands coming in tapped. This will give me more food for thought as I tweek my manabase.
What is the purpose of sorin in your deck? which deck is it good against?
Could you look at Essence Extraction? Renewed Faith?
Why Glimmer over Hieroglyphic Illumination? How has Kefnet been?
I'll give it a whirl when some of my Amonkhet cards arrive, still missing some... will let you know how it works out after that.
Kefnet has been rock solid against UR and UB control (the only other control decks in my LGS). I would be a bit more wary of running Kefnet out there against control decks playing white because of Anguished Unmaking and Cast Out. Even then, Sorin usually mops up.
I like Glimmer of Genius a lot. The only reason for me to run Hieroglyphic Illumination is to help me "get there" if I were playing with a lighter count on my mana base. I also want to scry away cards I don't necessarily want instead of just raw card advantage. As it stands, I generally don't have problems with getting lands or colors. Not to mention, Glimmer helps power Aether Hub.
Yep, I meant Blessed Alliance. I thought you didn't like Fumigate!? Did Kefnet change your opinion?
Round 1 vs Temur Aetherworks (2-1) (1-0)
Game 1 went really long but my opponent finally broke through my counter magic to land a second Ulamog for the win.
Game 2 went fairly long like game 1, but it was mostly due to my inability to find a win-con. It dragged on for a bit before Kefnet just blew up the board. Yahenni's Expertise wrecked my opponent's aggro plan (via Whirler Virtuoso) and afterwards I dealt with two Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and 1 Chandra, Flamecaller.
Game 3 was a repeat of game 2, but I changed up my sideboard a tad bit to be a little more proactive. I barely finished off my opponent in time on the last turn of extra turns.
Round 2 vs BW Zombies (2-1) (2-0)
Game 1, I was in control for the entirety of the game until I couldn't draw a finisher. I ended up losing. I literally saw 2/3 of my deck and couldn't find a Torrential Gearhulk or Sorin, Grim Nemesis.
Game 2, Kalitas and company come in and wreck shop. They didn't really need much help since my opponent was stuck on 2 lands for the first 4 turns. Once I untapped with Kalitas, the result was never in doubt.
Game 3 was a little closer. I kept a somewhat sketchy hand of seven cards that had 3 good late game cards. I really wanted to mulligan, but I also had two removal spells and two lands. There was a critical turn where I represented a Grasp of Darkness with only a Disallow in hand. If I had a Grasp, he knew he was dead on the crackback. If I didn't, I was dead on board. After thinking about it for a while, he passed, and I ended up closing out the game with Torrential Gearhulk, Kalitas and the Angel of Sanctions that were on board. We talked about it a bit afterwards. I did end up making a mistake on one of my attacks, but my thought process was that I needed the guaranteed life gain from Kalitas regardless of what he did on his turn. I did't realize he had man-lands that should've messed up my math. I thought in his position he needed to force me to have it then and there. He knew I had only played a couple removal spells to this point and Fatal Push and Grasp of Darkness were equally game ending. I just thought that there were fewer top decks he could get in the time my board presented for him to get out of the situation. Either way, I don't think he was necessarily "wrong" for his choice but it was interesting for sure.
Round 3 B Zombies (2-1) (3-0)
Game 1 I again control the entire game for many turns. I again cannot find a Torrential Gearhulk or Sorin to close up the game. He ends up winning when I have 22 cards left in my deck. I'm flabbergasted this occurs again.
Game 2 I kill everything and deny opponent any non-creature action. Opponent apparently switched up into a mono black control deck with Dispossess and Transgress the Mind. Opponent didn't play many creatures. Those that opponent did play died immediately. Opponent scoops to save remaining time in the round (at this point, just under 9 min).
Game 3 Opponent comes out of the gate slow while I come out hot. Opponent does nothing for the first two turns while I play a land and say go. On turns three through five, I kill everything and counter two Transgress the Mind. On my turn 5, I drop Ob Nixilis onto an empty field. Ultimate soon follows. Torrential cleans up in extra turns.
I need more threats. I'm considering Liliana, the Last Hope or Liliana, Death's Mastery. Either one would have helped win games as a top deck or an early threat, and are resilient to the current removal spells in the local metagame. Even in the online metagame, it doesn't seem that bad. I've yet to test it against GB Aggro or GR Aggro. I'm curious how much damage Hazoret the Fervent and Rhonas the Indomitable will do to me.
Also, I was wrong. Four Pull from Tomorrow is always correct. I can dump the extras if need be, but not having access to them was painful multiple times.
3 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Enchantment
2 Cast Out
25 Instant
4 Grasp of Darkness
1 Anguished Unmaking
3 Negate
4 Disallow
3 Glimmer of Genius
4 Fatal Push
4 Pull from Tomorrow
2 Essence Scatter
26 Land
3 Prairie Stream
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
3 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Island
3 Shambling Vent
2 Aether Hub
2 Fetid Pools
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
2 Sorcery
2 Yahenni's Expertise
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Baral, Chief of Compliance
1 Kefnet the Mindful
1 To the Slaughter
1 Negate
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Essence Scatter
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Summary Dismissal
1 Void Shatter
1 Fumigate
1 Angel of Sanctions
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
EDIT: Could a single Ulamog come in as a win con?
C Long Live Eldrazi C