Great to see the human activity!
@patbou - I really like the decklist and the early results, but I do have some questions.
On the manabase: Is Fortified Village good here? You really want your third, fourth and fifth land (postboard) to come into play untapped, and when you topdeck a Village as your last land, not so good. It also doesn't make it easier for Cinder Glade to be untapped. I wonder whether some combination of basics, a fourth Evolving Wilds, Aether Hub and Canopy Vista might be better.
Do you want another land in the sideboard for when you bring in Avacyn?
If you can cast it (and you can now), Heron's Grace Champion is Reckless Bushwhacker + Lantern Scout with the additional benefits of flash (okay, that's hyperbole, but worth considering). Representing Recruiter activation and flashing Champion in to maybe blow out removal is just an example. Are you sure you don't want them?
Tireless Tracker grinds really well. Are you sure you don't want any in your 75?
Thanks hoser2! I thought about something similar concerning Fortified Village, but I decided to test it that way to have some chances at playing Traverse on turn 1 (and have untapped G or W for turn 2). Come to think of it, that was probably very stupid. Lieutenant is bad on turn 2 anyway, and what I want on that turn is thus R or G.
I'll work on the manabase a bit more (but it was pretty good in my testings), and will post the results later or tomorrow. I really appreciate the suggestion.
Maybe another Traverse in the SB will work well with Avacyn (instead a land #25). That way, Traverse can help cast her on curve if played in the early turns, or fetch her to my hand in the late game if I have Delirium...
I will consider Heron's Grace Champion in the SB instead of Lantern Scout. But I'm not convinced it is a good replacement for Bushwhacker, far from it. The way I see it, Champion is more a midrange card that can help you make a single good attack if you have the right board already. Bushwhacker sets that board (along with the previous spell or spells) and allows me to go very wide, very fast (which is what kills Planeswalkers these days). A timely Champion on Mimic + Recruiter (pretty normal opening) would deal 6 damage with 2 attackers (with Lifelink, net spread of 12). Replace Champion by Lieutenant and Bushwhacker, and that's 4 creatures and 13 damage. I'll take that anytime instead of the former.
(And this discount the crazy plays, like the one I did this morning : Mimic ; Garrison ; Mimic and Lieutenant (attack for 10, with Garrison and tokens) ; Garrison and Bushwhacker (attack for 52 on 12 creatures ; I know Pummeller can do crazy stuff, but 10 + 52 is quite a lot of damage!)
Even then, in my playtesting, sometimes Champion is awkward : you have no board for it to bring value to ; or you have a board, but no good attacks ; or you need to ambush block to gain life and stabilize, but opponent kills your blockers while Champion in on the stack (you actually gave him the opportunity to untap and draw to screw your plan). Also, Champion competes on the curve with Gideon and Chandra. Bushwhacker is good too on turn 4 (along with a two-drop, or with Chandra's mana ability), but it's also good (better) on turn 5 or turn 6 when surged on Garrison, Thalia or Gideon. Play Champion on these turns, and you may end up with unspent mana ressources that could have been put to better use.
I will test it, however. But I will encourage you to test Bushwhacker (in the right shell) against the metagame's best decks, just so we can compare notes (instead of theorycrafting ; which I'm too inclined to do).
As for Tireless Tracker... Maybe it is a good choice in the SB, for grindy games 2 and 3 (against Mardu, who's more and more inclined to go Midrange). I doubt it can take the place of Garrison or Thalia in the main (or Bushwhacker).
I'm a bit afraid of Mardu's new approach, now that they play 3 x Avacyn main deck. Along with Ballista, they have a disgusting way of wiping our board if we're not careful. Selfless Spirit is under consideration for that reason (either main or SB). Not a good idea : Mardu will just sac Ballista to trigger Avacyn and kill Spirit ; when she'll flip next turn, there will be no Spirit left to save my board. Ideas?
Also, I'm wondering if Nahiri wouldn't be a sweet addition to the SB, if only to deal with the Oaths Saheeli and Mardu are playing, and the new control decks' weapon of choice... Authority of the Consuls (oh God, I hate that card ; but I can see why it is so good against Saheeli, Vehicles and token spawners).
Would it make sense to have a Midrange SB plan? With maybe Oath of Gideon/Chandra, Arlinn Kord, etc.?
Stasis Snare will probably make a comeback in my SB : it deals with Scrounger, Heart of Kiran and attacking Gideon. It also deals with whatever GB Delirium or GB Constrictor throws at us...
BTW, I double checked, and it isn't possible to have a good manabase with more basics to make Battlelands more optimals. I switched Fortified Village for Game Trail, and Cinder Glade for Canopy Vista, but that's really the best I can do...
Great to see the human activity!
@patbou - I really like the decklist and the early results, but I do have some questions.
I have questions too :
Do you think Oath of Nissa could be better than Traverse the Ulvenwald in my Naya deck? I can see it as a mana fixer for Gideon and Chandra, but it won't guarantee you a land when you cast it (although a creature may be welcome).
What could be good answers to Mardu's Avacyn? Stasis Snare comes to mind, but you have to keep mana up just for fear opponent will cast her on a Ballista, and this may Time Warp you just like Saheeli Combo does. Maybe Always Watching? What about Oath of Ajani? It may get your current creatures fat enough to resist her flip, and accelerate your Planeswalkers. But they are pretty bad against Avacyn already, no?
Answers to Avacyn: Skywhaler's Shot, Stasis Snare, Heroic Intervention, Make a Stand, Repel the Abominable, Eerie Interlude, Avacyn. But you know these also. Stasis snare can be problematic when they start running Nahiri.
Oath of Nissa: As long as our only double colors are walkers, I can see it. I really like the card in general. Always Watching, Stasis Snare, Garrison+Bushwhacker turns seem a bit harder when they are with Traverse.
After my last 0-3, I gave myself a week with snek, but tomorrow I will be spending time with some people running Mardu. I have rebuilt the more midrangy Naya Humans and will try to get some testing in.
I like the OoNissa vs Traverse - your list seems light on enough card types for late game delirium, and as you say the opportunity to tutor up a dude is good. Or, given that you are running Harnessed Lightning, is there value in Attune with Aether? Or is that something you have already tried and discarded in previous build discussions?
As far as Avacyn goes, personally I like the outgrow option, as that advances your game plan at the same time. Always Watching and OoAjani work, as would Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. Either that or just ignore that one card in twenty is likely to be an Avacyn and just play no fear
Deckbuilding like that is exhausting... I've loaded up on two-drops to accelerate the deck, but it's now only more fragile to Fatal Push. I can easily get a Pacifist to 4/4, but it dies very fast to Mardu anyway. The green package allows for some card advantage, but the long game is the territory of Saheeli and the new Mardu. The Boros version of deck was satisfying at PPTQ. If not from the crazy flood on matchup #1, or the bluff / math-not-done on matchup #3, I would have Top 4 the event. In the current metagame, I still think Rally triggers to stabilize against Mardu (Lifelink) and to go around Saheeli's minions (Menace) is the way to go. Scout, Mage and Bushwhacker are all out of reach of Fatal Push, and this is good.
I'm thus, again, considering going back to Boros. I may switch Thalia for Authority of the Consuls to lower the curve. Having a one-drop that screws Saheeli's Combo, Thopter or Gearhulk ambush, and Vehicles, and is hard to deal with, is probably what can bring this deck to the next level. I'll put Chandra in the maindeck to get her card advantage ability, and will consider Gisela to oppose Mardu's Heart of Kiran and Avacyn. And I'll remove Inventor's Apprentice to add some two-drops. I really want to have something else than Lieutenant to play on turn 2, and just 4 Mimic isn't enough... Kari Zev comes to mind, and Hanweir Militia Captain too.
God I'll miss the Garrison + Lieutenant + Mimic synergy in the main deck...
So I was watching the GP Porto Alegre stream today, and Rich Hagen made a point that really made me stop and reconsider. Essentially, if you know that your deck dies to X, at what point do you change your sideboard from bringing in answers to bringing in new questions? My takeaway from that as it relates to March and Saheeli is that neither of those decks really strays away from its own gameplan when boarding - they present themselves (not incorrectly) as the deck to beat: "you need to change what you do to try and beat me", which for most other decks out there dilutes their gameplan in hopes of drawing whatever answer they brought in. What if instead of bringing in answers we brought in questions - cards that make the Mardu and Saheeli players have to search for their own answers and potentially weaken or slow down their own strategies?
Specifically as it relates to this thread, a card they discussed (at an earlier time but I think it is relevant) was Gisela, the Broken Blade. This was in a UW flash vs Mardu matchup, and the commentator (I don't remember if it was Rich or Paolo) stated that once Gisela lands she flat-out makes the entire game about her. And it was true as the UW player won that game in five 4-point chunks, basically 8-point life swings that let him effectively ignore his opponent's attacks. The player had her backed up by both Avacyn and Selfless Spirit, both cards we can run in any of these shells. UW won that match and both wins were largely due to Gisela.
Gisela isn't an "answer" to Mardu in the sense that it isn't coming in at the expense of our primary gameplan. I think as we near the end of this particular standard format it's worth looking for cards that make our strategy better and force the opponent to find answers.
Relating more back to patbou's comment (man, I should have quoted) about maybe swapping out Thalia for Authority, I think that would be a mistake. Yes Thalia is more vulnerable to removal but she advances our game where Authority does not. We need to stop worrying about the fact that they have 4-8 removal spells and build to present more threats than they can answer.
Without the ability to really use Heart as well as Mardu, we maybe can't be the best Planeswalker deck. Do we want to adapt the Jund Smasher tech? 4 Aether Hub, 4 Evolving Wilds, 1 Wastes, 1 Garrison just about does it. Reality Smasher from the sideboard seems like perfect anti-Gideon tech
It might need an extra land main due to the Wilds, not sure as I literally just threw this together in a builder and goldfished one hand. Shock could be some other burn (but I'm lazy). And I'd rather have 4 Mimic and 2 Militia Captain, but limited resources...
Wouldn't it be better to just play Fleetwheel Cruiser? It is less a strain on our manabase than Reality Smasher. And if we want haste, let's remember that Reckless Bushwhacker does a fine job at going wider and faster than opponent can expect. And it is on-color.
I really like Gisela as a new addition to the deck. With Avacyn, the two can be a real pain for Planeswalkers. She's not harder to cast than Gideon.
Wouldn't it be better to just play Fleetwheel Cruiser? It is less a strain on our manabase than Reality Smasher. And if we want haste, let's remember that Reckless Bushwhacker does a fine job at going wider and faster than opponent can expect. And it is on-color.
I really like Gisela as a new addition to the deck. With Avacyn, the two can be a real pain for Planeswalkers. She's not harder to cast than Gideon.
(BTW : I still dream of Odric + Gisela combo.)
I would need to test before rendering judgement, but consider the following:
Reality Smasher crews itself every turn
Reality Smasher can never be Fatal Pushed
Reality Smasher often costs an extra card to remove
Reality Smasher eats Avacyn or unbuffed Heart that try to block it
Wouldn't it be better to just play Fleetwheel Cruiser? It is less a strain on our manabase than Reality Smasher. And if we want haste, let's remember that Reckless Bushwhacker does a fine job at going wider and faster than opponent can expect. And it is on-color.
I really like Gisela as a new addition to the deck. With Avacyn, the two can be a real pain for Planeswalkers. She's not harder to cast than Gideon.
(BTW : I still dream of Odric + Gisela combo.)
Fleetwheel Cruiser seems worth testing. Easier mana is a big plus. My biggest concern is that Cruiser is so much easier to deal with than Reality Smasher. Testing would tell if that is a real issue or much ado about nothing.
Odric+Gisela sounds awesome. Odric+Kari Zev would be spiffy as well (it gets the menace aspect that you had previously mentioned you wanted to see for the 4cCat matchup). Hmmmm...
How about some old fashioned GW humans? Except minus planeswalkers. Don't have Gideon, could throw in Nissa if it's deemed desirable, but I like the way this is working.
I haven't been playing humans at all, but I was searching for cards that could tango with Saheeli and Gideon, and found some. Very aggressive, ready to deal at instant speed with enemy threats and eager to race down Mardu and 4CCC.
I found some neat tricks in here, but let me know if I'm missing something important. It seems to work well in brief testing. Trades blows with Mardu, roflstomps other brews.
Gryff's Boon kills people who hope mucking up the ground is good. And it lets your pumped up humans block certain flying vehicles. Or attack through them either way.
Blossoming Defense I feel is an essential card these days. You don't always keep G open, but you do when you've achieved a big enough creature, and then foiling that Unlicensed Disintegration on your 6/4 flying Thalia (now 8/6)is sweet. It's also the only way to achieve mana parity against Fatal Push.
Repel the Abominable should be good against almost everything. It beats the combo, only Rogue Refiner is human. It makes a Mardu attack/block do nothing but lose creatures, as only Gideon is human.
Ulvenwald Mysteries should be in the side of every humans build. It is BONKERS against control. And it generates humans.
@lajube - Duskwatch Recruiter is crazy good. I think you want more low-curve creatures. Town Gossipmonger and Expedition Envoy come to mind. Hamlet Captain is great company, but somewhat mopey by themselves. You have a great set of noncreature effects, but more than I would have. Is 4 Gryff's Boon too many? Don't forget Always Watching.
Think of Gryff's Boon as Lightning Bolt. They think they're safe and then suddenly you deal 3 to a player or walker. Wouldn't be so good if i didn't have a ton of creatures or protection from removal. Numbers could be off, maybe I should go down a bit on the spells. Duskwatch I'm on, cutting Hamlets? 1x Always Watching because vigilance is great. Lambholt anybody? As an early 4/4 it can beat up anyone.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
Collective Effort also seems like a really good card for whatever we do in W/x. For a green secondary list, especially with Lambholt Pacifist, this might be super janky but what about Earthen Arms? It turns on Pacifist and isn't dead late game topdecking on an empty board.
I don't see it. If I want counters on my creature, Oath of Ajana and Nissa, Vastwood Seer do that. I don't want to kill enchantments. Destroying a 4-power creature is fine, but the main one I want to destroy is Heart of Kiran, and later Avacyn and Gideon. Stasis Snare does better against those.
Interestingly Lambholt would almost always on in my no-walkers list. With 4 Mimic, 4 Lieutenant, 4 Gryff's Boon, and 4 'Champion, it's just always ready.
Having tested a bit, I'm hooked on 4 Gryff's Boon. I don't always need multiples, but what's wrong with having 2 flying creatures instead of 1? It's never card-disadvantage because it comes back. You can enchant your less important creature to give people an awful dilemma: kill the flyer who's killing you, or kill the Lieutenant or Recruiter who's building to massive sizes. And if you kill the flyer, I pay 4 to get a flying Lieutenant.
Also absolutely sold on 4 Heron's Grace Champions. The blowouts are incredible. On my turn I can suddenly give a creature +2/+1 flying lifelink, and swing. And have a lifelinking blocker besides. On their turn I have a choice of +1/+1 lifelink team, or Stasis Snare. If it wasn't for this card, I'd be playing GB energy spash white for Boon. Anybody like a 5/3 pumpable flying hexproof hydra?
I've tried ChannelFireball's deck of the day : RW Humans. But with minor changes :
-1 Kari Zev
-1 Pia Nalaar
-1 Declaration in Stone
+2 Hanweir Militia Captain
+1 Hanweir Garrison
I've also squeezed 3 Bushwhackers in the SB (instead of Selfless Spirit), and tweaked some numbers.
The deck is very strong in the early game and can win on turn 4 : Apprentice ; Mimic, hit for 2 ; Garrison, hit for 4 ; Lieutenant, hit for 14 = 20 damage. It is susceptible to sweepers, but it can also outgrow Radiant Flames and Yaheeni's Expertise. And with so many Weenies and Bushwhacker, it can make a come back and kill Control in one turn. It is fast enough to beat Mardu (who's more Midrange now), goes wide enough to get at Planeswalkers, it has pseudo card advantage by overwhelming the board (low on lands, high on low cost creatures that can grow), and easily overloads opponent's removals. I've often seen a 4/5 Apprentice getting killed by Fatal Push, instead of Mimic, Lieutenant or Garrison, as it is a more immediate threat ; when opponent let's you keep your best cards, you know they're buying time and you'll win in a few turns.
I love the deck, and recommend it. I'm only sad Gideon and Avacyn can't make it in the 75, but this deck wins!!!
BTW, Kari Zev's Expertise is really good against Golgari. It's often a finisher.
I can see why Selfless Spirit could be good in the SB. Particularly if cast on T4 or T5, the turn before opponent can cast Fumigate. Let him spend his removals on other creatures first!
Maybe Lantern Scout could go. The deck hits so fast, I don't see why gaining life would be a game changer in a deck that has absolutely no plans of going to the mid or late game. Maybe only against Vehicles...
Instead, maybe -1 Kari Zev's Expertise and -1 Bushwhacker instead, to +2 Selfless Spirit in the SB? What do you think?
Also : I am slightly tempted to replace some Expedition Envoy by Bomat Courrier, just to add some artifacts (for Inventor's Apprentice), haste and card advantage. The deck will loose Human synergy, however. Could the advantages offset the drawbacks? Or maybe Stoneforge Masterwork, as a cheap artifact to help both Inventor and enhance the Human synergy... Opinion?
A note on Hanweir Battlements : I understand the concept of playing this card in a deck with 3-4 Hanweir Garrison. But getting to 6 lands is near impossible, and if you ever get there, you're either mana flood (low on creatures, and Garrison more susceptible to die to removals due to less distractions) or going in the long game (where this deck shouldn't be going, as it is opponent's territory). Giving haste to a creature can be nice, but this costs 1R (or R + tap Battlements), and is again something done in the very late game (you should have plenty to do with your few lands in the early game). And getting there and on top deck mode (against Midrange or Control, I guess), you're more likely to draw useless weenies (on a more than likely empty board) than one of the few Garrison (the only creature worthy of being hasted in the deck). I'm thus considering replacing it with a Mountain, if only to have more chances of casting a useful Shock on top of my other spells (Shock, BTW, has been a finisher a few times when I tested the deck on XMage, more often than expected).
I've just unsleeved 3 Gideon, 3 Avacyn, 1 Chandra, 1 Nahiri... what a painful and sad experience!
I hope going full throttle on the Weenies will pay off at tomorrow's FNM. Indeed, the Planeswalkers were probably not the right fit for the deck. And we need a new approach to tackle the format. But still, it pains me to not play with my best cards. I'm sure the deck will be fun anyway to play, but... *sigh*
Back to business : It *is* clear to me now that Mimic and Lieutenant are at their best among Weenies. There's nothing like a turn 2 Mimic, followed by 3 Weenies on turn 3, and double Lieutenants on turn 4.
Playing the deck more into the Midrange, with a lot of 3cmc creatures, was just removing power to our two lords.
0-2 against midrange Eldrazi after a mull to 5 and a mull to a bad 6. I think I could have done okay on a proper draw.
2-0 against UR Tower, wasn't even close. Oddly I had 13 sideboard cards that made sense despite not having planned for this matchup.
2-0 against URB (Revolt?) Games went too fast to get a proper feel for what was going on.
2-1 against Mardu Ballista. Game 1 was tight in my favor. Game 2 drew almost no creatures. Game 3 was a romp. Turns out Mardu is EXTREMELY bad at blocking with a 1/1 Toolcraft and a 3/2 Scrounger.
Heron's Grace Champion was as amazing as outlined.
Expedition Envoy was great. Lambholt was better than expected. Duskwatch didn't do much. Games ended long before I could start pulling creatures out of my deck. Still, it seems good insurance against flooding.
Gryff's Boon was good. Sometimes flying didn't matter and I'd take out a couple, but generally it meant a smaller creature could also get in the attack.
Thalia was one of the first cards I'd side out most matches, because I'd rather have a cheaper creature and get out sooner. Or (vs Tower control) have a Tracker to make more cards. I could see her being really good against deathtouchers and stuff like Thoughtknot Seer because of firststrike.
Stasis Snare was respectable, but expensive at times. It's there because of combo, and because every other removal spell sucks. Immolating Glare? Blessed Alliance? Not for this deck. Declaration in Stone misses too many things. But it comes in anyway if they aren't Saheeli or Mardu.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Awesome Deck: UWAll-In GiftsWU Consistent, Resiliant, and way overpowered, making multiple 4/4s per turn.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWUFree Stuff MidrangeUWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
FNM results :
2-0 vs Jeskai Saheeli (thank you, Authority of the Consuls)
2-0 vs UW Control (slow and steady, to avoid giving too much value to Fumigate)
1-1 vs Temur Tower (...)
Against Temur Tower, Game 1 : After a long game, I was still at 20 life and opponent at 1 life. I had 3 Humans, including one quite large Thraben Inspector (3/4 because of counters, and +2/+2 because of Stoneforge Masterwork). Opponent had a Tower on a empty field, but 6 untapped lands. I played Thalia. On the stack, he played Torrential Gearhulk, killing one Weenie with Harnessed Lightning, and another one with Tower. Thalia resolved, but I only had my less fat Inspector left to attack on a bigger Gearhulk. I played my last card : Hanweir Battlements, giving Haste to Thalia.
Game 2 stalled, and it took me a long time to get him down to 5 (it would have been -1 if not for that Murasa spell that gained him 6 life and returned a creature to his hand). I managed him well enough, exiling Virtuoso on turn 3, and attacking the best I could, and 2 Needle Spires got killed in the mid game. I destroyed the first Tower with Release the Gremlins, but he played another one right after. I should have conceded then, to win game 3 on the play. But I was comforted by my 17 life, and hoping to make a come back if I could draw a Bushwhacker. He played the 1/1 dude that creates 5/5 flying dragon tokens every upkeep right before Judge called time. He won on the last turn of time extension.
I know that opponent very well, and we were both certain that I would have won game 3, on the play...
Lesson learned. Against Control, concede game 2 when on the draw if by turn 4-5 I don't have an excellent board state and opponent a low life total. This deck is a monster on the play, and as good as Temur is, it can't beat Boros Humans (Aggro version, and not trying the Midrange game with Gideon and fancy plays that cost 4-5 mana).
I thus finished 2nd for the night. My last opponent finished first : he had a better OMW%.
I also had these results on XMage while playtesting the same deck :
2-0 Mono Blue Spirit
2-0 Mono Blue Spirit
0-2 Temur Tower (flood at 9 lands vs 3 spells ; then 2 x Kozi Return)
2-0 Golgari Constrictor
2-0 BW Aggro
2-1 UW Control
2-0 UW Voltron
2-1 Temur Tower
1-2 Temur Tower (flooded, then short)
2-0 UB Eldrazi
I'm not sure if Aethersphere Harvester wouldn't be a better SB option than Selfless Spirit. I can see why Spirit would be good against Mardu's Avacyn, but it is very vulnerable to Walking Balista (Mardu kills Spirit with Ballista, which dies, which triggers Avacyn, who flips next turn and I'm left with no protection from her wrath effect). Basically, I doubt Spirit fixes the problem for which it is there. Fumigate could be a problem, but playing cautious against Control to avoid giving value to their sweepers is a skill I have.
I really think Harvester would be a better card in the Control matchups. It's hard to kill. Grasp of Darkness won't do it, and if Temur Tower wants to waste an Harnessed Lightning on it, so be it. It will drain their energy, and leave them less to fix their mana (Aether Hub), create Thopter (Virtuoso) or activate Tower. Harvester can attack above all of Temur Tower's creatures, or eat Thopters doing so. It is easily crewed, and gives pseudo-Haste and evasion to our Weenies. It resists all sweepers (except Kozilek's Return from the graveyard it one emerges a Deep-Fiend at instant speed, but that's a stretch).
Stoneforge Masterwork is a good card when on the play, but should be sided out on the draw or against heavy removals opponents.
Kari Zev is not very impressive. Her Monkey rarely punches through, and she just hits for 1. She's good with a few counters on her. But as a 3/5 first strike, she's actually a better defender than attacker (Shock makes her better on combat, however). Hanweir Militia Captain not always flips, but is a much feared card in a deck that plays 12 one-drops and 12 two-drops (and 4 Garrison that creates 2 tokens). Unchecked, it is FAR better than Kari Zev. I'm seriously considering removing Kari from the deck, to play the full playset of Captains.
Anthems effects are great against damage based sweepers. Mimic and Lieutenant can grow Garrison and Apprentice to 3/4, but I want more of that. Always Watching is a card that I want to see more often, and I can see the deck moving 1 Fragmentize to the SB to make room for anthem #2. If I can grow all my Humans out of Tower's reach, or fat enough to threaten Heart of Kiran, it seems strictly better.
Fragmentize anyway is just frustrating against Gearhulks. Release the Gremlins is unconditional, and plays into my aggressive strategy. I'll tweek the SB according to these conclusions.
Stasis Snare was respectable, but expensive at times. It's there because of combo, and because every other removal spell sucks. Immolating Glare? Blessed Alliance? Not for this deck. Declaration in Stone misses too many things. But it comes in anyway if they aren't Saheeli or Mardu.
Congratulations! You had great results, and losing 0-2 to Eldrazi because you mulliganed to 5 and 6 is just extreme variance.
The reason why I opted for RW instead of GW is because of the bad removal options in GW. Shock is a cheap option that kills all of Mardu's creatures (except Avacyn and Heart), counters Saheeli's Combo and kills her Servant of the Conduit. It can even finish off opponent when I bring him down to 1-2 life (quite often).
Harnessed Lightning is another good option, but it needs some energy support.
Declaration in Stone works in my deck because opponent doesn't have the time to benefit from the Clue.
It's awesome that we've found two decks that can win against Mardu and Copy Cat.
I prefer my Boros deck because it compounds better on Mimic and Lieutenant by playing more cheap creatures and Garrison, and the high aggressivity and fast wins avoid me going into a longer game where Tier 1 decks are currently favored. But that's just my style... congratulations again, and thanks for your help with the Human tribe!!!
Here's an update on the deck, taking into account my thoughts of the above post :
Round 1 vs BW (basically red-less Mardu): Loss 0-2
This round was brutal both from deck performance and play performance standpoints. Game 1 I kept 2 land with 3 2-drops and some big stuff. Died around turn 7 or so with 3 lands and those 3 2-drops on board. Brutal but it happens. Game 2 I mulled away a hand with 3 land, 3 lightning and a snare hoping to draw some gas. That was prolly a mistake as I ended up facing early pressure with a 5-carder that stumbled. I still think I could have won it if I hadn't have lightninged his Westvale Abbey token to get an extra couple (meaningless) damage through instead of holding it for the Scrounger & Toolcraft he had ready to come back at me.
Round 2 vs Mardu: Loss 1-2
Don't remember game 1 except for losing. Game 2 she was land-starved and I beat down before she saw her 4th land for Gideon. I also got the benefit of a misplay where she tried to Disintegration against an empty board in hopes that the damage to me (>Gideon) would still go through. Game 3 I got stomped despite starting with removal - just not enough to slow down the assault.
Round 3 vs Bye: Crushed it
Round 4 vs BR Aggro Madness: Win 2-0. This was the only match where the deck actually did what it was sposed to. Game 1 I saw Chaser > Thalia > Gideon > Lieutenant. Game 2 Gids ate a Lost Legacy, but Avacyn into Garrison+Bushwhacker took that one. Dunno where those draws were the rest of the night.
I can't speak to the sideboard choices as I never drew them. Any of them. There were only a few cards that I didn't bring in - might try to make room for some Kozilek's Return.
As a side note I played some between-round games against Temur Tower and Jund goodstuff, and was solid against those. So there's that.
My takeways:
- Lrn2PlyNub (seriously tho, I made so many mistakes, more than should be expected for this being the first time actually shuffling up the list).
- Aether Chaser was surprisingly good. The energy was enough support for Harnessed Lighting, and first strike is very relevant. The 1 toughness hurts tho.
- Hanweir Militia Captain is underwhelming in my list. I don't have the early drops to reliably support it, and it just doesn't do anything meaningful on its own.
- Gotta agree with @patbou on the Kari Zev assessment. I will prolly try her for one more week tho.
- Odric changes combat in crazy ways. Giving the whole team haste, flying, vigilance and first strike is silly. Wouldn't go more than 1 tho I don't think, simply for the sake of curve.
- Yes it could use more lord effects, but I used what was available to me. I saw some Lieut's in the store binder, might have to get there early next week and see if they are still around. Mimics are basically nowhere (I only had 1 available to me which didn't seem worth it).
When the deck worked it was great, and it was a nice feeling not going to time every round (I tend to build midrange/control). Just need to figure out the consistency issues.
First things first, let's have a look at the mana curve :
00-15-14-5-2 is your current curve.
00-15-10-7-4 is your curve if half your Bushwhackers are surged on a two-drop, and the other half on a three-drop.
11-11-06-4-3 is the Mardu's new curve, with 25 lands, to support 3 Avacyn in the main deck.
With such a high number of spells in the 3-4-5 cmc range (21, compared to Mardu's 13), you should probably be playing 26 lands. Note that I'm only comparing your curve to Mardu so you can understand how pro players value the importance of having the right number of lands, and that they accept losing a spell or two to be able to cast all the others at the right time.
Bushwhacker thrives on numbers. Lieutenant, Militia Captain and Always Watching too. Playing these with absolutely no 1cmc creatures actually turn amazing cards into very average or plain bad cards. If you really want to play these, I think you should be more committed to that strategy. No matter how exciting it is to play higher cost creatures like Gisela and Odric, just remember that in the wrong shell, good cards are bad.
I can understand that you are limited in your Deckbuilding by your store's card availability. This is very sad. I never faced this challenge, because my store sells a lot of singles. Maybe you can order you Mimic playset online?
If you can just proxy Mimic and Lieutenant to the full playset, and test them against friends in a deck with Garrison (or online for free on XMage), you'll realise how amazing this triad is. I think a tribal Human deck really has to play 4 Mimic and 4 Lieutenant, and compound on the theme with Heron's Grace Champion or Hanweir Garrison.
One last note on your mana base : 4 Aether Hub is way too much, and you don't need at all Evolving Wilds. Aether Hub will screw you hard in your color production (and with 2 Hanweir Battlements, you have 6 colorless in a color hungry deck), and Evolving Wilds will slow you down too much. I would tone down Hub to 2, and play basic lands instead, and maybe 1-2 Stone Quarry if you REALLY need color fixing AND you can seriously control the early game (as you're going to be slow).
Look at my list... it has no Mythics, and no fancy cards that cost more than 3. Still, it is a killing machine that performs. I was very sad to remove Gideon and Avacyn from my deck, but enough playtesting learned me that they were less good in my deck than in others, and that it was best to build the deck differently.
I may later change my opinion on the subject, but my ratings on XMage are crawling back up to 1600‘s with my Weenie deck (at 1597 this morning), after a few weeks of having dropped to the low 1500's (because of average performance with the Naya and Boros Human Ally decks).
If I ever play Gideon and Avacyn again before rotation, it will be in a very different build, with probably no Humans.
I did some playtesting to try to tune the deck against 4-color copy cat, and I must say, it's ridiculous what you must do to have a good-feeling matchup. I got to feeling I need a set of Thalia and a set of Ballistas just so I can feel comfortable developing the board and attacking. What I mean is, yes I can spam creatures and try to get damage in, but they also play out creatures, and we 2/3 of games we don't quite get there by the time the combo is threatened. Still feel they are way to good at blocking. (Caveat: I did all my playtesting on the draw. On the play is another story.)
And still I want a set of Blossoming Defense so they don't kill the key creatures, Stasis Snares so I can kill stuff (Tracker and Whirler get to be quite a nuissance.) And finally the matchup feels acceptable, though I wish I could go faster, because the chief problem is giving them time to set up. (And now their latest tech is Bristling Hydra. Now that is what you call a problem card if you can't get big fast.)
Fortunately, every card I mentioned above also seems like a good card vs. Mardu. And here's the resulting deck:
Thanks hoser2! I thought about something similar concerning Fortified Village, but I decided to test it that way to have some chances at playing Traverse on turn 1 (and have untapped G or W for turn 2). Come to think of it, that was probably very stupid. Lieutenant is bad on turn 2 anyway, and what I want on that turn is thus R or G.
I'll work on the manabase a bit more (but it was pretty good in my testings), and will post the results later or tomorrow. I really appreciate the suggestion.
Maybe another Traverse in the SB will work well with Avacyn (instead a land #25). That way, Traverse can help cast her on curve if played in the early turns, or fetch her to my hand in the late game if I have Delirium...
I will consider Heron's Grace Champion in the SB instead of Lantern Scout. But I'm not convinced it is a good replacement for Bushwhacker, far from it. The way I see it, Champion is more a midrange card that can help you make a single good attack if you have the right board already. Bushwhacker sets that board (along with the previous spell or spells) and allows me to go very wide, very fast (which is what kills Planeswalkers these days). A timely Champion on Mimic + Recruiter (pretty normal opening) would deal 6 damage with 2 attackers (with Lifelink, net spread of 12). Replace Champion by Lieutenant and Bushwhacker, and that's 4 creatures and 13 damage. I'll take that anytime instead of the former.
(And this discount the crazy plays, like the one I did this morning : Mimic ; Garrison ; Mimic and Lieutenant (attack for 10, with Garrison and tokens) ; Garrison and Bushwhacker (attack for 52 on 12 creatures ; I know Pummeller can do crazy stuff, but 10 + 52 is quite a lot of damage!)
Even then, in my playtesting, sometimes Champion is awkward : you have no board for it to bring value to ; or you have a board, but no good attacks ; or you need to ambush block to gain life and stabilize, but opponent kills your blockers while Champion in on the stack (you actually gave him the opportunity to untap and draw to screw your plan). Also, Champion competes on the curve with Gideon and Chandra. Bushwhacker is good too on turn 4 (along with a two-drop, or with Chandra's mana ability), but it's also good (better) on turn 5 or turn 6 when surged on Garrison, Thalia or Gideon. Play Champion on these turns, and you may end up with unspent mana ressources that could have been put to better use.
I will test it, however. But I will encourage you to test Bushwhacker (in the right shell) against the metagame's best decks, just so we can compare notes (instead of theorycrafting ; which I'm too inclined to do).
As for Tireless Tracker... Maybe it is a good choice in the SB, for grindy games 2 and 3 (against Mardu, who's more and more inclined to go Midrange). I doubt it can take the place of Garrison or Thalia in the main (or Bushwhacker).
I'm a bit afraid of Mardu's new approach, now that they play 3 x Avacyn main deck. Along with Ballista, they have a disgusting way of wiping our board if we're not careful.
Selfless Spirit is under consideration for that reason (either main or SB).Not a good idea : Mardu will just sac Ballista to trigger Avacyn and kill Spirit ; when she'll flip next turn, there will be no Spirit left to save my board. Ideas?Also, I'm wondering if Nahiri wouldn't be a sweet addition to the SB, if only to deal with the Oaths Saheeli and Mardu are playing, and the new control decks' weapon of choice... Authority of the Consuls (oh God, I hate that card ; but I can see why it is so good against Saheeli, Vehicles and token spawners).
Would it make sense to have a Midrange SB plan? With maybe Oath of Gideon/Chandra, Arlinn Kord, etc.?
Stasis Snare will probably make a comeback in my SB : it deals with Scrounger, Heart of Kiran and attacking Gideon. It also deals with whatever GB Delirium or GB Constrictor throws at us...
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Game Trail
4 Canopy Vista
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Needle Spires
2 Plains
2 Mountain
1 Forest
Creatures (26)
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Lambholt Pacifist
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Shock
2 Harnessed Lightning
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Lantern Scout
2 Firemantle Mage
3 Release the Gremlins
3 Archangel Avacyn
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Heart of Kiran
1 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Harnessed Lightning
Maybeboard
1 Heron's Grace Champion
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Oath of Gideon
1 Oath of Chandra
1 Oath of Ajani
1 Arlinn Kord
1 Nahiri, the Harbringer
1 Stasis Snare
1 Always Watching
1 Authority of the Consuls
BTW, I double checked, and it isn't possible to have a good manabase with more basics to make Battlelands more optimals. I switched Fortified Village for Game Trail, and Cinder Glade for Canopy Vista, but that's really the best I can do...
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
I have questions too :
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Oath of Nissa: As long as our only double colors are walkers, I can see it. I really like the card in general. Always Watching, Stasis Snare, Garrison+Bushwhacker turns seem a bit harder when they are with Traverse.
After my last 0-3, I gave myself a week with snek, but tomorrow I will be spending time with some people running Mardu. I have rebuilt the more midrangy Naya Humans and will try to get some testing in.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
As far as Avacyn goes, personally I like the outgrow option, as that advances your game plan at the same time. Always Watching and OoAjani work, as would Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. Either that or just ignore that one card in twenty is likely to be an Avacyn and just play no fear
I'm thus, again, considering going back to Boros. I may switch Thalia for Authority of the Consuls to lower the curve. Having a one-drop that screws Saheeli's Combo, Thopter or Gearhulk ambush, and Vehicles, and is hard to deal with, is probably what can bring this deck to the next level. I'll put Chandra in the maindeck to get her card advantage ability, and will consider Gisela to oppose Mardu's Heart of Kiran and Avacyn. And I'll remove Inventor's Apprentice to add some two-drops. I really want to have something else than Lieutenant to play on turn 2, and just 4 Mimic isn't enough... Kari Zev comes to mind, and Hanweir Militia Captain too.
God I'll miss the Garrison + Lieutenant + Mimic synergy in the main deck...
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Specifically as it relates to this thread, a card they discussed (at an earlier time but I think it is relevant) was Gisela, the Broken Blade. This was in a UW flash vs Mardu matchup, and the commentator (I don't remember if it was Rich or Paolo) stated that once Gisela lands she flat-out makes the entire game about her. And it was true as the UW player won that game in five 4-point chunks, basically 8-point life swings that let him effectively ignore his opponent's attacks. The player had her backed up by both Avacyn and Selfless Spirit, both cards we can run in any of these shells. UW won that match and both wins were largely due to Gisela.
Gisela isn't an "answer" to Mardu in the sense that it isn't coming in at the expense of our primary gameplan. I think as we near the end of this particular standard format it's worth looking for cards that make our strategy better and force the opponent to find answers.
Relating more back to patbou's comment (man, I should have quoted) about maybe swapping out Thalia for Authority, I think that would be a mistake. Yes Thalia is more vulnerable to removal but she advances our game where Authority does not. We need to stop worrying about the fact that they have 4-8 removal spells and build to present more threats than they can answer.
My $0.02.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Interesting thought on some colourless tech. Something like this as a starting point (building off my previous list as a base)?
4 Aether Hub
4 Evolving Wilds
1 Hanweir Battlements
4 Inspiring Vantage
1 Mountain
4 Needle Spires
5 Plains
1 Wastes
Enchantment-1
1 Always Watching
Instants-5
4 Shock
1 Skywhaler's Shot
1 Declaration in Stone
Planeswalkers-3
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creatures-26
3 Archangel Avacyn
2 Gisela, the Broken Blade
4 Hanweir Garrison
4 Hanweir Militia Captain
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 Metallic Mimic
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Incendiary Flow
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Reality Smasher
3 Release the Gremlins
3 Stasis Snare
1 Westvale Abbey
It might need an extra land main due to the Wilds, not sure as I literally just threw this together in a builder and goldfished one hand. Shock could be some other burn (but I'm lazy). And I'd rather have 4 Mimic and 2 Militia Captain, but limited resources...
Wouldn't it be better to just play Fleetwheel Cruiser? It is less a strain on our manabase than Reality Smasher. And if we want haste, let's remember that Reckless Bushwhacker does a fine job at going wider and faster than opponent can expect. And it is on-color.
I really like Gisela as a new addition to the deck. With Avacyn, the two can be a real pain for Planeswalkers. She's not harder to cast than Gideon.
(BTW : I still dream of Odric + Gisela combo.)
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Fleetwheel Cruiser seems worth testing. Easier mana is a big plus. My biggest concern is that Cruiser is so much easier to deal with than Reality Smasher. Testing would tell if that is a real issue or much ado about nothing.
Odric+Gisela sounds awesome. Odric+Kari Zev would be spiffy as well (it gets the menace aspect that you had previously mentioned you wanted to see for the 4cCat matchup). Hmmmm...
I haven't been playing humans at all, but I was searching for cards that could tango with Saheeli and Gideon, and found some. Very aggressive, ready to deal at instant speed with enemy threats and eager to race down Mardu and 4CCC.
I found some neat tricks in here, but let me know if I'm missing something important. It seems to work well in brief testing. Trades blows with Mardu, roflstomps other brews.
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Heron's Grace Champion
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Metallic Mimic
2 Hamlet Captain
4 Stasis Snare
4 Gryff's Boon
Instant
4 Blossoming Defense
2 Repel the Abominable
Land
4 Canopy Vista
5 Forest
9 Plains
4 Fortified Village
3 Renegade Rallier
4 Ulvenwald Mysteries
4 Natural Obsolescence
3 Heroic Intervention
1 Repel the Abominable
Gryff's Boon kills people who hope mucking up the ground is good. And it lets your pumped up humans block certain flying vehicles. Or attack through them either way.
Blossoming Defense I feel is an essential card these days. You don't always keep G open, but you do when you've achieved a big enough creature, and then foiling that Unlicensed Disintegration on your 6/4 flying Thalia (now 8/6)is sweet. It's also the only way to achieve mana parity against Fatal Push.
Heron's Grace Champion lets you hold up Stasis Snare and not waste all your mana, and surprises them with a huge life swing.
Repel the Abominable should be good against almost everything. It beats the combo, only Rogue Refiner is human. It makes a Mardu attack/block do nothing but lose creatures, as only Gideon is human.
Ulvenwald Mysteries should be in the side of every humans build. It is BONKERS against control. And it generates humans.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
@lajube - Duskwatch Recruiter is crazy good. I think you want more low-curve creatures. Town Gossipmonger and Expedition Envoy come to mind. Hamlet Captain is great company, but somewhat mopey by themselves. You have a great set of noncreature effects, but more than I would have. Is 4 Gryff's Boon too many? Don't forget Always Watching.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
Interestingly Lambholt would almost always on in my no-walkers list. With 4 Mimic, 4 Lieutenant, 4 Gryff's Boon, and 4 'Champion, it's just always ready.
Having tested a bit, I'm hooked on 4 Gryff's Boon. I don't always need multiples, but what's wrong with having 2 flying creatures instead of 1? It's never card-disadvantage because it comes back. You can enchant your less important creature to give people an awful dilemma: kill the flyer who's killing you, or kill the Lieutenant or Recruiter who's building to massive sizes. And if you kill the flyer, I pay 4 to get a flying Lieutenant.
Also absolutely sold on 4 Heron's Grace Champions. The blowouts are incredible. On my turn I can suddenly give a creature +2/+1 flying lifelink, and swing. And have a lifelinking blocker besides. On their turn I have a choice of +1/+1 lifelink team, or Stasis Snare. If it wasn't for this card, I'd be playing GB energy spash white for Boon. Anybody like a 5/3 pumpable flying hexproof hydra?
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
-1 Kari Zev
-1 Pia Nalaar
-1 Declaration in Stone
+2 Hanweir Militia Captain
+1 Hanweir Garrison
I've also squeezed 3 Bushwhackers in the SB (instead of Selfless Spirit), and tweaked some numbers.
The deck is very strong in the early game and can win on turn 4 : Apprentice ; Mimic, hit for 2 ; Garrison, hit for 4 ; Lieutenant, hit for 14 = 20 damage. It is susceptible to sweepers, but it can also outgrow Radiant Flames and Yaheeni's Expertise. And with so many Weenies and Bushwhacker, it can make a come back and kill Control in one turn. It is fast enough to beat Mardu (who's more Midrange now), goes wide enough to get at Planeswalkers, it has pseudo card advantage by overwhelming the board (low on lands, high on low cost creatures that can grow), and easily overloads opponent's removals. I've often seen a 4/5 Apprentice getting killed by Fatal Push, instead of Mimic, Lieutenant or Garrison, as it is a more immediate threat ; when opponent let's you keep your best cards, you know they're buying time and you'll win in a few turns.
I love the deck, and recommend it. I'm only sad Gideon and Avacyn can't make it in the 75, but this deck wins!!!
BTW, Kari Zev's Expertise is really good against Golgari. It's often a finisher.
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Needle Spires
1 Hanweir Battlements
7 Plains
6 Mountain
Creatures (30)
4 Inventor's Apprentice
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Fragmentize
4 Shock
2 Declaration in Stone
1 Always Watching
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Collective Effort
2 Lantern Scout
2 Authority of the Consuls
1 Fragmentize
2 Release the Gremlins
3 Kari Zev's, Expertise
I can see why Selfless Spirit could be good in the SB. Particularly if cast on T4 or T5, the turn before opponent can cast Fumigate. Let him spend his removals on other creatures first!
Maybe Lantern Scout could go. The deck hits so fast, I don't see why gaining life would be a game changer in a deck that has absolutely no plans of going to the mid or late game. Maybe only against Vehicles...
Instead, maybe -1 Kari Zev's Expertise and -1 Bushwhacker instead, to +2 Selfless Spirit in the SB? What do you think?
Also : I am slightly tempted to replace some Expedition Envoy by Bomat Courrier, just to add some artifacts (for Inventor's Apprentice), haste and card advantage. The deck will loose Human synergy, however. Could the advantages offset the drawbacks? Or maybe Stoneforge Masterwork, as a cheap artifact to help both Inventor and enhance the Human synergy... Opinion?
A note on Hanweir Battlements : I understand the concept of playing this card in a deck with 3-4 Hanweir Garrison. But getting to 6 lands is near impossible, and if you ever get there, you're either mana flood (low on creatures, and Garrison more susceptible to die to removals due to less distractions) or going in the long game (where this deck shouldn't be going, as it is opponent's territory). Giving haste to a creature can be nice, but this costs 1R (or R + tap Battlements), and is again something done in the very late game (you should have plenty to do with your few lands in the early game). And getting there and on top deck mode (against Midrange or Control, I guess), you're more likely to draw useless weenies (on a more than likely empty board) than one of the few Garrison (the only creature worthy of being hasted in the deck). I'm thus considering replacing it with a Mountain, if only to have more chances of casting a useful Shock on top of my other spells (Shock, BTW, has been a finisher a few times when I tested the deck on XMage, more often than expected).
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
I hope going full throttle on the Weenies will pay off at tomorrow's FNM. Indeed, the Planeswalkers were probably not the right fit for the deck. And we need a new approach to tackle the format. But still, it pains me to not play with my best cards. I'm sure the deck will be fun anyway to play, but... *sigh*
Back to business : It *is* clear to me now that Mimic and Lieutenant are at their best among Weenies. There's nothing like a turn 2 Mimic, followed by 3 Weenies on turn 3, and double Lieutenants on turn 4.
Playing the deck more into the Midrange, with a lot of 3cmc creatures, was just removing power to our two lords.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
0-2 against midrange Eldrazi after a mull to 5 and a mull to a bad 6. I think I could have done okay on a proper draw.
2-0 against UR Tower, wasn't even close. Oddly I had 13 sideboard cards that made sense despite not having planned for this matchup.
2-0 against URB (Revolt?) Games went too fast to get a proper feel for what was going on.
2-1 against Mardu Ballista. Game 1 was tight in my favor. Game 2 drew almost no creatures. Game 3 was a romp. Turns out Mardu is EXTREMELY bad at blocking with a 1/1 Toolcraft and a 3/2 Scrounger.
Heron's Grace Champion was as amazing as outlined.
Expedition Envoy was great. Lambholt was better than expected. Duskwatch didn't do much. Games ended long before I could start pulling creatures out of my deck. Still, it seems good insurance against flooding.
Gryff's Boon was good. Sometimes flying didn't matter and I'd take out a couple, but generally it meant a smaller creature could also get in the attack.
Thalia was one of the first cards I'd side out most matches, because I'd rather have a cheaper creature and get out sooner. Or (vs Tower control) have a Tracker to make more cards. I could see her being really good against deathtouchers and stuff like Thoughtknot Seer because of firststrike.
Stasis Snare was respectable, but expensive at times. It's there because of combo, and because every other removal spell sucks. Immolating Glare? Blessed Alliance? Not for this deck. Declaration in Stone misses too many things. But it comes in anyway if they aren't Saheeli or Mardu.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Needle Spires
1 Hanweir Battlements
7 Plains
6 Mountain
Creatures (28)
4 Inventor's Apprentice
4 Thraben Inspector
2 Expedition Envoy
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Fragmentize
4 Shock
2 Declaration in Stone
1 Always Watching
2 Stoneforge Masterwork
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Collective Effort
2 Lantern Scout
2 Authority of the Consuls
1 Fragmentize
1 Release the Gremlins
2 Kari Zev's, Expertise
2 Selfless Spirit
FNM results :
2-0 vs Jeskai Saheeli (thank you, Authority of the Consuls)
2-0 vs UW Control (slow and steady, to avoid giving too much value to Fumigate)
1-1 vs Temur Tower (...)
Against Temur Tower, Game 1 : After a long game, I was still at 20 life and opponent at 1 life. I had 3 Humans, including one quite large Thraben Inspector (3/4 because of counters, and +2/+2 because of Stoneforge Masterwork). Opponent had a Tower on a empty field, but 6 untapped lands. I played Thalia. On the stack, he played Torrential Gearhulk, killing one Weenie with Harnessed Lightning, and another one with Tower. Thalia resolved, but I only had my less fat Inspector left to attack on a bigger Gearhulk. I played my last card : Hanweir Battlements, giving Haste to Thalia.
Game 2 stalled, and it took me a long time to get him down to 5 (it would have been -1 if not for that Murasa spell that gained him 6 life and returned a creature to his hand). I managed him well enough, exiling Virtuoso on turn 3, and attacking the best I could, and 2 Needle Spires got killed in the mid game. I destroyed the first Tower with Release the Gremlins, but he played another one right after. I should have conceded then, to win game 3 on the play. But I was comforted by my 17 life, and hoping to make a come back if I could draw a Bushwhacker. He played the 1/1 dude that creates 5/5 flying dragon tokens every upkeep right before Judge called time. He won on the last turn of time extension.
I know that opponent very well, and we were both certain that I would have won game 3, on the play...
Lesson learned. Against Control, concede game 2 when on the draw if by turn 4-5 I don't have an excellent board state and opponent a low life total. This deck is a monster on the play, and as good as Temur is, it can't beat Boros Humans (Aggro version, and not trying the Midrange game with Gideon and fancy plays that cost 4-5 mana).
I thus finished 2nd for the night. My last opponent finished first : he had a better OMW%.
I also had these results on XMage while playtesting the same deck :
2-0 Mono Blue Spirit
2-0 Mono Blue Spirit
0-2 Temur Tower (flood at 9 lands vs 3 spells ; then 2 x Kozi Return)
2-0 Golgari Constrictor
2-0 BW Aggro
2-1 UW Control
2-0 UW Voltron
2-1 Temur Tower
1-2 Temur Tower (flooded, then short)
2-0 UB Eldrazi
I'm not sure if Aethersphere Harvester wouldn't be a better SB option than Selfless Spirit. I can see why Spirit would be good against Mardu's Avacyn, but it is very vulnerable to Walking Balista (Mardu kills Spirit with Ballista, which dies, which triggers Avacyn, who flips next turn and I'm left with no protection from her wrath effect). Basically, I doubt Spirit fixes the problem for which it is there. Fumigate could be a problem, but playing cautious against Control to avoid giving value to their sweepers is a skill I have.
I really think Harvester would be a better card in the Control matchups. It's hard to kill. Grasp of Darkness won't do it, and if Temur Tower wants to waste an Harnessed Lightning on it, so be it. It will drain their energy, and leave them less to fix their mana (Aether Hub), create Thopter (Virtuoso) or activate Tower. Harvester can attack above all of Temur Tower's creatures, or eat Thopters doing so. It is easily crewed, and gives pseudo-Haste and evasion to our Weenies. It resists all sweepers (except Kozilek's Return from the graveyard it one emerges a Deep-Fiend at instant speed, but that's a stretch).
Stoneforge Masterwork is a good card when on the play, but should be sided out on the draw or against heavy removals opponents.
Kari Zev is not very impressive. Her Monkey rarely punches through, and she just hits for 1. She's good with a few counters on her. But as a 3/5 first strike, she's actually a better defender than attacker (Shock makes her better on combat, however). Hanweir Militia Captain not always flips, but is a much feared card in a deck that plays 12 one-drops and 12 two-drops (and 4 Garrison that creates 2 tokens). Unchecked, it is FAR better than Kari Zev. I'm seriously considering removing Kari from the deck, to play the full playset of Captains.
Anthems effects are great against damage based sweepers. Mimic and Lieutenant can grow Garrison and Apprentice to 3/4, but I want more of that. Always Watching is a card that I want to see more often, and I can see the deck moving 1 Fragmentize to the SB to make room for anthem #2. If I can grow all my Humans out of Tower's reach, or fat enough to threaten Heart of Kiran, it seems strictly better.
Fragmentize anyway is just frustrating against Gearhulks. Release the Gremlins is unconditional, and plays into my aggressive strategy. I'll tweek the SB according to these conclusions.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Congratulations! You had great results, and losing 0-2 to Eldrazi because you mulliganed to 5 and 6 is just extreme variance.
The reason why I opted for RW instead of GW is because of the bad removal options in GW. Shock is a cheap option that kills all of Mardu's creatures (except Avacyn and Heart), counters Saheeli's Combo and kills her Servant of the Conduit. It can even finish off opponent when I bring him down to 1-2 life (quite often).
Harnessed Lightning is another good option, but it needs some energy support.
Declaration in Stone works in my deck because opponent doesn't have the time to benefit from the Clue.
It's awesome that we've found two decks that can win against Mardu and Copy Cat.
I prefer my Boros deck because it compounds better on Mimic and Lieutenant by playing more cheap creatures and Garrison, and the high aggressivity and fast wins avoid me going into a longer game where Tier 1 decks are currently favored. But that's just my style... congratulations again, and thanks for your help with the Human tribe!!!
Here's an update on the deck, taking into account my thoughts of the above post :
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Needle Spires
1 Hanweir Battlements
7 Plains
6 Mountain
Creatures (29)
4 Inventor's Apprentice
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Expedition Envoy
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Shock
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Always Watching
1 Stoneforge Masterwork
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Collective Effort
2 Lantern Scout
2 Authority of the Consuls
2 Release the Gremlins
2 Kari Zev's, Expertise
2 Aetherspher Harvester
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
4 Aether Hub
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Hanweir Battlements
4 Inspiring Vantage
2 Mountain
4 Needle Spires
4 Plains
Enchantments-4
1 Always Watching
3 Stasis Snare
Instants-4
4 Harnessed Lightning
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creatures-25
4 Aether Chaser
2 Archangel Avacyn
1 Gisela, the Broken Blade
4 Hanweir Garrison
3 Hanweir Militia Captain
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
2 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Bygone Bishop
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Declaration in Stone
2 Incendiary Flow
1 Kari Zev's Expertise
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Reality Smasher
2 Release the Gremlins
1 Wastes
Round 1 vs BW (basically red-less Mardu): Loss 0-2
This round was brutal both from deck performance and play performance standpoints. Game 1 I kept 2 land with 3 2-drops and some big stuff. Died around turn 7 or so with 3 lands and those 3 2-drops on board. Brutal but it happens. Game 2 I mulled away a hand with 3 land, 3 lightning and a snare hoping to draw some gas. That was prolly a mistake as I ended up facing early pressure with a 5-carder that stumbled. I still think I could have won it if I hadn't have lightninged his Westvale Abbey token to get an extra couple (meaningless) damage through instead of holding it for the Scrounger & Toolcraft he had ready to come back at me.
Round 2 vs Mardu: Loss 1-2
Don't remember game 1 except for losing. Game 2 she was land-starved and I beat down before she saw her 4th land for Gideon. I also got the benefit of a misplay where she tried to Disintegration against an empty board in hopes that the damage to me (>Gideon) would still go through. Game 3 I got stomped despite starting with removal - just not enough to slow down the assault.
Round 3 vs Bye: Crushed it
Round 4 vs BR Aggro Madness: Win 2-0. This was the only match where the deck actually did what it was sposed to. Game 1 I saw Chaser > Thalia > Gideon > Lieutenant. Game 2 Gids ate a Lost Legacy, but Avacyn into Garrison+Bushwhacker took that one. Dunno where those draws were the rest of the night.
I can't speak to the sideboard choices as I never drew them. Any of them. There were only a few cards that I didn't bring in - might try to make room for some Kozilek's Return.
As a side note I played some between-round games against Temur Tower and Jund goodstuff, and was solid against those. So there's that.
My takeways:
- Lrn2PlyNub (seriously tho, I made so many mistakes, more than should be expected for this being the first time actually shuffling up the list).
- Aether Chaser was surprisingly good. The energy was enough support for Harnessed Lighting, and first strike is very relevant. The 1 toughness hurts tho.
- Hanweir Militia Captain is underwhelming in my list. I don't have the early drops to reliably support it, and it just doesn't do anything meaningful on its own.
- Gotta agree with @patbou on the Kari Zev assessment. I will prolly try her for one more week tho.
- Odric changes combat in crazy ways. Giving the whole team haste, flying, vigilance and first strike is silly. Wouldn't go more than 1 tho I don't think, simply for the sake of curve.
- Yes it could use more lord effects, but I used what was available to me. I saw some Lieut's in the store binder, might have to get there early next week and see if they are still around. Mimics are basically nowhere (I only had 1 available to me which didn't seem worth it).
When the deck worked it was great, and it was a nice feeling not going to time every round (I tend to build midrange/control). Just need to figure out the consistency issues.
First things first, let's have a look at the mana curve :
With such a high number of spells in the 3-4-5 cmc range (21, compared to Mardu's 13), you should probably be playing 26 lands. Note that I'm only comparing your curve to Mardu so you can understand how pro players value the importance of having the right number of lands, and that they accept losing a spell or two to be able to cast all the others at the right time.
Bushwhacker thrives on numbers. Lieutenant, Militia Captain and Always Watching too. Playing these with absolutely no 1cmc creatures actually turn amazing cards into very average or plain bad cards. If you really want to play these, I think you should be more committed to that strategy. No matter how exciting it is to play higher cost creatures like Gisela and Odric, just remember that in the wrong shell, good cards are bad.
I can understand that you are limited in your Deckbuilding by your store's card availability. This is very sad. I never faced this challenge, because my store sells a lot of singles. Maybe you can order you Mimic playset online?
If you can just proxy Mimic and Lieutenant to the full playset, and test them against friends in a deck with Garrison (or online for free on XMage), you'll realise how amazing this triad is. I think a tribal Human deck really has to play 4 Mimic and 4 Lieutenant, and compound on the theme with Heron's Grace Champion or Hanweir Garrison.
One last note on your mana base : 4 Aether Hub is way too much, and you don't need at all Evolving Wilds. Aether Hub will screw you hard in your color production (and with 2 Hanweir Battlements, you have 6 colorless in a color hungry deck), and Evolving Wilds will slow you down too much. I would tone down Hub to 2, and play basic lands instead, and maybe 1-2 Stone Quarry if you REALLY need color fixing AND you can seriously control the early game (as you're going to be slow).
Look at my list... it has no Mythics, and no fancy cards that cost more than 3. Still, it is a killing machine that performs. I was very sad to remove Gideon and Avacyn from my deck, but enough playtesting learned me that they were less good in my deck than in others, and that it was best to build the deck differently.
I may later change my opinion on the subject, but my ratings on XMage are crawling back up to 1600‘s with my Weenie deck (at 1597 this morning), after a few weeks of having dropped to the low 1500's (because of average performance with the Naya and Boros Human Ally decks).
If I ever play Gideon and Avacyn again before rotation, it will be in a very different build, with probably no Humans.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
Use a hypergeometric calculator for your deckbuilding maths,
and use TopDecked to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
And still I want a set of Blossoming Defense so they don't kill the key creatures, Stasis Snares so I can kill stuff (Tracker and Whirler get to be quite a nuissance.) And finally the matchup feels acceptable, though I wish I could go faster, because the chief problem is giving them time to set up. (And now their latest tech is Bristling Hydra. Now that is what you call a problem card if you can't get big fast.)
Fortunately, every card I mentioned above also seems like a good card vs. Mardu. And here's the resulting deck:
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
4x Expedition Envoy
3x Heron's Grace Champion
2x Metallic Mimic
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Thraben Inspector
2x Town Gossipmonger
4x Walking Ballista
4x Canopy Vista
5x Forest
4x Fortified Village
9x Plains
Enchantment (6)
2x Gryff's Boon
4x Stasis Snare
4x Blossoming Defense
There's a bit of tension between what's good against one and what's good against the other and this list feels like a respectable medium.
GB Electric Dreams BG Deal 20 in one shot, or discard their hand?
GWU Free Stuff Midrange UWG Slowly bury the opponent with more threats and answers than they can handle.
My greatest hits:
GURFate Reforged Temur Ascendancy COMBORUG
GUDragons of Tarkir Whisperwood Forever UG