I've been playing with a full set of Expedition Envoy because getting that early pressure has been important. It is a nice T1 play that you can then follow up with a Mimic.
RW Humans was 2/2 day 2 conversion, but I didn't see them in the 6+ win list. Does anybody know how to find what they ran. I like the idea of Naya Humans vs vehicles.
Mardu Vehicule is now the deck to beat it seems. Do you think the R/W Humans is still relevant?
Do you think switching Shock for Outnumber could help destroy vehicles?
It could be more relevant than ever. That deck is never blocking. As long as we can kill Heart, we get on board early enough to eat Gideon.
I just wish I could guarantee a meta with lots of Mardu Vehicles. Naya with Heron's Grace Champion could be so much fun! GW might actually be really good against Vehicles also.
Very interesting lists. Thanks for sharing them. Make a Stand seems intriguing.
Are you interested in feedback? If not, please ignore the comments below.
The RW numbers aren't adding up for me. For the artifact count to boost apprentice, I would go to the fourth Mimic before the fourth legendary Kari Zev.
In the GW list, I am assuming that you are not expecting much of the combo or are expecting to overrun them before they have a chance to go off. I think I would go with the fourth Mimic before the fourth Recruiter. The Recruiter ability is great in the late game, but it is expensive and I rarely find time to use it except against control, so some could be in the sideboard or out in favor of things that are more synergistic or powerful without using extra mana.
The deck relies on synergy to get to an overwhelming aggressive boardstate by T4 or T5. The problem I've been finding is that most decks are well equipped right now with cheap spot removal, since it was important against Saheeli. This likely won't get any better with Mardu on top. Shock, Fatal Push, Grasp, and so forth will still be played heavily. Ballista being a premier threat doesn't help. The issue is that without the cumulative effects of Lieutenant and Mimic triggers, we are out classed on the ground. The deck is not equipped very well to crew 3 a Heart either. I think this will be a problem for all versions of the deck going forward.
The deck relies on synergy to get to an overwhelming aggressive boardstate by T4 or T5. The problem I've been finding is that most decks are well equipped right now with cheap spot removal, since it was important against Saheeli. This likely won't get any better with Mardu on top. Shock, Fatal Push, Grasp, and so forth will still be played heavily. Ballista being a premier threat doesn't help. The issue is that without the cumulative effects of Lieutenant and Mimic triggers, we are out classed on the ground. The deck is not equipped very well to crew 3 a Heart either. I think this will be a problem for all versions of the deck going forward.
Exactly. That why we need to find way to counter this. Yahenni's Expertise is a real problem too.
I think Nevelo's critique is well thought-out, but I am still optimistic. I wouldn't say that Humans is secretly the best deck in standard and you should absolutely play it in your next GP or PPTQ, but I think it can compete, steal some FNMs or even better. I think GB Constrictor is our worst matchup and I think GWx variants could be well positioned against Vehicles. I think RWx versions could have game against combo and control. I am also curious about trying an Abzan version with Fatal Push, Renegade Rallier and Renegade Map against Vehicles.
I wasn't impressed with Captain when I tried it. Duskwatch is good, but much more suited to a slower metagame.
I think the best cards for green are Champion and Tracker and the only Green creatures I'd be interested in right now. I do like the idea of running a few Blossoming Defense to help with all the spot removal though.
I think Nevelo's critique is well thought-out, but I am still optimistic. I wouldn't say that Humans is secretly the best deck in standard and you should absolutely play it in your next GP or PPTQ, but I think it can compete, steal some FNMs or even better. I think GB Constrictor is our worst matchup and I think GWx variants could be well positioned against Vehicles. I think RWx versions could have game against combo and control. I am also curious about trying an Abzan version with Fatal Push, Renegade Rallier and Renegade Map against Vehicles.
I was thinking of those colors too. any lists going around? Glint-Sleeve Siphoner would help with card draws
...
I was thinking of those colors too. any lists going around? Glint-Sleeve Siphoner would help with card draws
Yeah. I am a great fan of Siphoner. As I built the lists, I found that I couldn't make a deck that supported both Glint-Sleeve Siphoner and Renegade Rallier. Basically, both cards want durdles that help with fixing (a good thing in a 3-color deck). Renegade Map is good for Rallier and Fatal Push while Attune with Aether is good for Siphoner. Given that the upside of Siphoner is greater than Rallier, I am inclined toward something like the following. This list is meant to have answers for Mardu Vehicles. It is soft to Saheeli. To have more game against Saheeli, Walking Ballistae seem helpful. For more game against control, Scroungers seem better.
Mimic has been fine for me. While overall it isn't as good a Lieutenant, it's a bit like having Lieutenant 6-8 in the deck. I do think that, like Lieutenant, Mimic want to play with a lot of 1-drops. The idea being that you have a higher chance to followup a Mimic with several creatures. As mentioned, it plays really well as a play right before attacking with a Garrison. It is also plays very good along side Inventor's Apprentice, as it turns them into 3/4's for 1. Perhaps a slower GW deck doesn't care as much about the trigger? They have more options in the 2-drop slot anyway.
i'm running a BW build with the rest of the 1-2 drops and Scrapheap. just wondering if replacing it with a heart of kiran or harvester is more viable. so far, it has managed to get me a few counters here and there.
So I went to a PPTQ with this build. Really fun even if I ended up losing. All the game were really close. Won against GB Constrict and a Aether Marvelwork. Lost against crazy cat and Jeskai Control by small margin. The deck is not tier 1 but competitive. Sigarda is really strong and do the job against removal. Her ability to exile card to create Human for Mimic, Lieutenant and Heron Champion is a good mana sink. Heroic Intervention did a good job also.
I also played the RW in a side event and found it worst than the GW
A GW Human centered deck that has beaten the likes of Mardu Vehicles and can beat B/G Constrictor and Saheeli Cat. Revolt is a vey underutilized mechanic and with Renegade Rallier and Thalia's Lieutenant in the same standard, the field can become flooded with creatures.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The essence of every world, every spell and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
Went 2-2 with Naya Humans tonight: losing to Abzan Rites, beating Izzet Dynavolt control, losing to Mardu Vehicles (barely) and beating GB Delirium snek. Boros Humans lost in the finals at 3-1 to GB Energy snek.
Went 2-2 with Naya Humans tonight: losing to Abzan Rites, beating Izzet Dynavolt control, losing to Mardu Vehicles (barely) and beating GB Delirium snek. Boros Humans lost in the finals at 3-1 to GB Energy snek.
...
How has your mana base been treating you so far? Do you feel like you have a good matchup against the popular meta decks atm?
Small sample size caveats apply, but this manabase was working pretty well before rotation for the same color requirements and I recently swapped the second Hanweir Battlements out to bring in a Cinder Glade. It's greedy, but there weren't notable problems.
Expected matchups versus the popular decks? I've been playing and tweaking this deck off and on since the release of Eldritch Moon. For a few weeks leading up to Game Day I was playing my snek deck in competitive events while playing this on the side and crushing random brews. This is based on very little testing against the Tier decks, but I expect to be a dog to snek, beat vehicles and be about even versus Saheeli.
Interestingly, last night I lost to vehicles and beat GB. Given 3 colors, the deck can be tuned for any matchup, but I think I want more data before I revise that assessment. The Vehicles match was super close and I don't feel that I drew particularly well. I didn't think the GB deck was built very well. GB "should" be able to make their creatures too big for us to handle too quickly. We have more card advantage than Vehicles and can pressure Planeswalkers very well. Their inability to block given creatures crewing Vehicles and Scrounger combined with Heron's Grace Champion "should" make the matchup not even be close. This is really just theorycrafting.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Lost 1-2 in Mirror (mull 5 at the 1st doesn't help)
Lost 1-2 vs Shaeeli combo
Won 2-0 vs BG Counter
I've changed my list for adding some Blossoming defense and Heroic intervention in MD since BG counter and Shaeeli combo are more and more played and that they play individual removals (Harnessed Lightning, Grasp of Darkness or Fatal Push) or masse removals (Radiant Flames and Fumigate).
Here what I'll play for the next event :
9 Plains
4 Forest
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
1 Westvale Abbey
Creatures
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Metallic Mimic
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Always Watching
4 Stasis Snare
Instants
3 Blossoming Defense
2 Heroic Intervention
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Heron's Grace Champion
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Authority of the Consuls
2 Heroic Intervention
2 Repel the Abominable
1 Appetite for the Unnatural
3 Declaration in Stone
Gus
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Do you think switching Shock for Outnumber could help destroy vehicles?
I just wish I could guarantee a meta with lots of Mardu Vehicles. Naya with Heron's Grace Champion could be so much fun! GW might actually be really good against Vehicles also.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
GW Humans
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
2 Lambholt Pacifist
3 Metallic Mimic
1 Heart of Kiran
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Heron Grace Champion
2 Sigarda Heron Grace
3 Always Watching
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Blossoming Defense
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
9 Plains
7 Forest
1 Westvale Abbey
1 Heron Grace Champion
1 Authority of the Consuls
3 Fragmentize
2 Plummet
2 Blossoming Defense
1 Heroic Intervention
1 Declaration in Stone
2 Stasis Snare
1 Selfless Spirit
RW Humans
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Inventor's Apprentice
3 Metallic Mimic
1 Heart of Kiran
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Hanweir Garrison
2 Hanweir Militia Captain
3 Pia Nalaar
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Declaration in Stone
3 Shock
4 Inspiring Vantage
1 Hanweir Battlement
9 Plains
5 Mountain
4 Needle Spires
1 Release the Gremlins
1 Authority of the Consuls
3 Fragmentize
2 Gryff's Boon
2 Reckless Bushwacker
2 Make a Stand
1 Declaration in Stone
2 Stasis Snare
1 Selfless Spirit
What should I cut and replace with?
Are you interested in feedback? If not, please ignore the comments below.
The RW numbers aren't adding up for me. For the artifact count to boost apprentice, I would go to the fourth Mimic before the fourth legendary Kari Zev.
In the GW list, I am assuming that you are not expecting much of the combo or are expecting to overrun them before they have a chance to go off. I think I would go with the fourth Mimic before the fourth Recruiter. The Recruiter ability is great in the late game, but it is expensive and I rarely find time to use it except against control, so some could be in the sideboard or out in favor of things that are more synergistic or powerful without using extra mana.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Exactly. That why we need to find way to counter this. Yahenni's Expertise is a real problem too.
I am wondering if the GW Humans is better, so we can main deck Blossoming Defense, Heroic Intervention and Make a Stand.
I think I will add Always Watching also.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I think the best cards for green are Champion and Tracker and the only Green creatures I'd be interested in right now. I do like the idea of running a few Blossoming Defense to help with all the spot removal though.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I was thinking of those colors too. any lists going around? Glint-Sleeve Siphoner would help with card draws
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Grim Flayer
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Heron's Grace Champion
3 Verdurous Gearhulk
Spells:11
3 Attune with Aether
4 Fatal Push
1 Declaration in Stone
3 Always Watching
3 Aether Hub
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Walking Ballista
0 Battle at the Bridge
1 Fragmentize
1 Natural State
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Heroic Intervention
1 Natural Obsolescence
1 Scrapheap Scrounger
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Thopter Arrest
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Gisela, the Broken Blade
1 Heron's Grace Champion
1 Archangel Avacyn
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13786&writer=Craig Wescoe&articledate=2-10-2017
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Expedition Envoy
4 Heron's Grace Champion
3 Lambholt Pacifist
3 Metallic Mimic
1 Oviya Pashiri, Sage Lifecrafter
3 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Town Gossipmonger
2 Aether Hub
4 Canopy Vista
5 Forest
4 Fortified Village
9 Plains
4 Authority of the Consuls
1 Blossoming Defense
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Natural Obsolescence
1 Natural State
2 Stasis Snare
1 Tireless Tracker
Here is where I am on Naya. It definitely needs work, things like Declaration in Stone:
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
1 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Voltaic Brawler
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Tireless Tracker
3 Heron's Grace Champion
1 Archangel Avacyn
2 Verdurous Gearhulk
3 Harnessed Lightning
1 Always Watching
Lands
4 Aether Hub
2 Canopy Vista
2 Cinder Glade
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Forest
1 Hanweir Battlements
4 Inspiring Vantage
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Shock
1 Kari Zev's Expertise
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Heron's Grace Champion
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Archangel Avacyn
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
1 Combustible Gearhulk
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Oviya Pashiri, Sage Lifecrafter
2 Lambholt Pacifist
3 Metallic Mimic
1 Heart of Kiran
4 Heron Grace Champion
2 Sigarda Heron Grace
3 Always Watching
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Heroic Intervention
2 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Canopy Vista
4 Fortified Village
9 Plains
7 Forest
3 Fragmentize
2 Plummet
2 Blossoming Defense
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Stasis Snare
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Thalia Heretic Cathar
1 Immolating Glare
So I went to a PPTQ with this build. Really fun even if I ended up losing. All the game were really close. Won against GB Constrict and a Aether Marvelwork. Lost against crazy cat and Jeskai Control by small margin. The deck is not tier 1 but competitive. Sigarda is really strong and do the job against removal. Her ability to exile card to create Human for Mimic, Lieutenant and Heron Champion is a good mana sink. Heroic Intervention did a good job also.
I also played the RW in a side event and found it worst than the GW
A GW Human centered deck that has beaten the likes of Mardu Vehicles and can beat B/G Constrictor and Saheeli Cat. Revolt is a vey underutilized mechanic and with Renegade Rallier and Thalia's Lieutenant in the same standard, the field can become flooded with creatures.
1 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Voltaic Brawler
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Heron's Grace Champion
1 Archangel Avacyn
2 Verdurous Gearhulk
4 Harnessed Lightning
2 Always Watching
Lands
4 Aether Hub
2 Canopy Vista
2 Cinder Glade
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Forest
1 Hanweir Battlements
4 Inspiring Vantage
2 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Natural Obsolescence
1 Appetite for the Unnatural
1 Kari Zev's Expertise
1 Lifecrafter's Bestiary
2 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Stasis Snare
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Heron's Grace Champion
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
1 Combustible Gearhulk
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Expected matchups versus the popular decks? I've been playing and tweaking this deck off and on since the release of Eldritch Moon. For a few weeks leading up to Game Day I was playing my snek deck in competitive events while playing this on the side and crushing random brews. This is based on very little testing against the Tier decks, but I expect to be a dog to snek, beat vehicles and be about even versus Saheeli.
Interestingly, last night I lost to vehicles and beat GB. Given 3 colors, the deck can be tuned for any matchup, but I think I want more data before I revise that assessment. The Vehicles match was super close and I don't feel that I drew particularly well. I didn't think the GB deck was built very well. GB "should" be able to make their creatures too big for us to handle too quickly. We have more card advantage than Vehicles and can pressure Planeswalkers very well. Their inability to block given creatures crewing Vehicles and Scrounger combined with Heron's Grace Champion "should" make the matchup not even be close. This is really just theorycrafting.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.