Well, that's my point. I'm not so sure running Garrison is suboptimal. In my own games, it's a powerhouse alongside Mimic, and we already knew how good it was with Lieutenant.
I can say I'm disappointed to not see WR Humans show up with much of a presence. I'm unsure if SCG gave any day 2 meta figures in their broadcast.
Reviewing my Boros build in light of the recent triumph of Walking Ballista, it is worth noting that 1 toughness creatures are now under even more pressure than when Liliana was alone in sniping them. Metallic Mimic, Envoy and Siphoner are extremely vulnerable and so is Lieutenant when first cast. It is worth noting that the Mimic's ability doesn't go on the stack, so it can protect a subsequent Lieutenant. However, if the opponent has a Walking Ballista with 2 or more counters and we have a Mimic with no counters in play, then with the cast of the Lieutenant on the stack, the opponent can snipe the Mimic with a single counter and then kill the Lieutenant for the same cost anytime before we find a way to buff it.
The implications I see for building and playing could be that Always Watching is more important in deckbuilding and more likely to be played earlier. Also, sniping the ballista first becomes a priority over playing out certain creatures. I don't think we can be as good for Ballista as Winding Constrictor decks, but the Ballistae still merit consideration at least for sideboarding against copycat, if not maindeck.
In addition, here is a bit of a tournament report.
I took the deck below to a four round event tonight, going 2-2 despite punting away the first game in three of my matches.
Match 1: BR Pia's Revolution - Ravenous Intruder Artifact Sacrifice Shenanigans - Win 1-0
G1 Opponent got Pia's Revolution out early on the play. I threw away creatures unnecessarily and fell to the accumulation of Pia's Revolution triggers along with some Ravenous Intruder beats. Scrounger's inability to block was very relevant here.
Sideboard -4 Harnessed Lightning, +2 Fragmentize, +1 Declaration, +1 Stasis Snare
G2 Garrison got going after an early Mimic. 'Nuf said
G3 Thalia and some Scroungers helped fell to Yahenni's Expertise before a Garrison carried the day.
Match 2: Jeskai Saheeli Combo Control. Win 2-0
G1 Despite identifying opponent as being on the combo, I stupidly tapped out unnecessarily (with Harnessed Lightning in hand!) to give away the game.
Sideboard: + Everything but Fragmentize, Declaration and Selfless Spirit, -4 Inventor's Apprentice, -4 Metallic Mimic, -1 Hanweir Militia Captain, -2 Others
G2: A good start into Garrison went well.
G3: Traded stuff, but ended up with a Lieutenant then stuck a Gideon on turn 4. T5 attacked through a Blessed Alliance (sac attacking Knight Ally Token), then stuck a Chandra. Opponent tried to attack Gideon with a Wandering Fumarole, but it got Shocked when it became a 4/1. Landed planeswalkers are good against control.
Match 3: GB Delirium. Loss 2-1
G1: A turn 2 unanswered Winding Constrictor led to some truly disgusting shananigans.
Sideboard: -2 Shock, +1 Declaration, +1 Snare
G2: I was holding off Grim Flayer on the play until a blind Mindwrack created Delirium in one shot. With no removal, Mimics or Lieutenants, my stuff was outclassed.
Match 3: GB Delirium. Loss 2-2
G1: After my Hanweir Militia Captain got Pushed out of the way, a Grim Flayer put three types in the graveyard. I stupidly ignored the Evolving Wilds that would make Delirium and threw away a creature on a bad block
Sideboard: -2 Shock, +1 Declaration, +1 Snare
G2: I got a Scrounger and an Inspector down, Lightninged a Grim Flayer and Thalia slowed the reinforcements enough to get there.
G3: Got him down to 2 with an active Key. He removed or Grasped to powerlessness my unblockable attackers until I left only 2 blockers because Scrounger can't block. That allowed him to remove the remaining blockers and get there exactly. Had I made Scrounger unbloockable the last time rather than the 4/5 Apprentice, he couldn't have made that line work.
Adam Yurchick wrote an excellent article on tcgplayer about his experience with the tournament Boros (should it be boRoss?) Humans deck. Some excellent analysis and an evolution suggestion. His thoughts about Garrison are worth considering, whether you agree or not.
Reflections on the evening:
Key was good. I like keeping 1, at least.
Kari Zev was OK, not great. I want to run her in Naya Humans with Renegade Rallier, but here the revolt triggers are kind of wasted. Too often the monkey gets blocked without killing anything and she only does 1.
Town GossipmongerHanweir Militia Captain (edit) is almost the definition of win more. Between needing answers to the combo and GB Delirium needing removal to up the Delirium count, ain't nobody letting you get to 4 creatures.
Scrounger was good and bad. The bonus on Apprentice makes them more good than bad, but maybe they and the Apprentices could give way to other 1- and 2-drops and more Always Watching.
Not impressed with Repel the Abominable. Magmatic Chasm seems better.
With tight play, this deck is competitive, but BG is hard.
Selfless Spirit seemed unhelpful. Against the Fumigate decks, bring in the Planeswalkers and land.
GB has such big creatures that Shock seems terrible, but Shocking a Grim Flayer on turn 2 is great. Edit: I can't decide if the card is good in the matchup.
Okay, I've decided to go with Naya this weekend at my LGS, what do you guys think? Attune may look a bit quirky, but finding the right colors for your PW's post board seems like a necessity (also, you're probably siding out several one drops anyways).
Snip
too many shadowlands will kill you because you only have 9 basics to make them enter untapped. I vote for Maining Garrisong since i see that card as the main reason to run Red (plus it combos really well with mimic) just my .02 cents
I like it. I assume you considered Metallic Mimic and discarded it for good reason, but wanted to mention it just in case. I think I would want more ways to interact with the combo maindeck. I love the Renegade Rallier-Kari Zev combo, but I think I'd run other ways to trigger Rallier (Evolving Wilds, Renegade Map, Unbridled Growth) or run fewer. With only 6 named type lands to show, I think your Shadowlands will generally be coming into play tapped. I would run fewer and some of the BFZ duals, Attune or Renegade Map to make them come into play untapped.
I think T1 Envoy into T2 Brawler is unlikely. I would either cut W 1-drops or replace Brawler with Pacifist, Mimic or Recruiter.
I'm afraid of running too many 1-toughness creatures atm with everyone playing ballisa. Do you feel Mimic has enough of an upside to include it anyways? I'll rethink the mana base either way!
Yeah, Ballista is a beating, but you are running Lieutenant and Envoy anyway. If you were maining Garrison, I would say yes, but I dunno in your deck. I would definitely have either some Always Watching or Mimics though, as Yahenni's Expertise will be all too common going forward.
My solution to the difficult Naya mana base was to run Brawler and give up on 1-drops, but I am eager to see people make other things work. With a curve that goes to 4 and 3 colors, I think Evolving Wilds, basics and some BFZ duals are better than the Shadow duals.
Here is what I'd be doing in Naya, but it's not adjusted to the meta. I think the manabase is worth a look. It definitely needs more mainboard interaction. Shock would be good, I think. Rishkar might be good enough to be an honorary human.
Again no sideboard, I dropped the Voltaic Brawler because I dont think of it as a reliable creature with trample, so Im streching the mana with the Maulfist, i may add Aether hubs to the mana base but im still thinking about it.
Lone rider is a secret sauce which i remembered my times that I used him to fill slots in the GW. Since we are using herons grace champion and +1/+1 counters tactics we can flip him quite easily and having a 6/6 with trample, first strike and lifelink is big, and helps in the lategame.
Reemplacing gideon for always watching is a good trade if we want to survive an early yahenis expertise. but that depends on the meta
Naya always looks so powerful, but the mana seems to be the biggest bottleneck.
@Tyraelxy: I'd definitely run Evolving Wilds in that list to enable Rallier and Tracker.
@Asakurazero: Your curve seems a bit high. No 1-drops at all. I can imagine the double green on Maulfist will be difficult as well.
@Hoser2: Repel was Radiant Flames insurance. Though, someone pointed out Eerie Interlude as an option to dodge sweepers. I haven't gotten a chance to try it, but it seems interesting.
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@Hoser2: Repel was Radiant Flames insurance. Though, someone pointed out Eerie Interlude as an option to dodge sweepers. I haven't gotten a chance to try it, but it seems interesting.
Yeah. They could be good. I've run them both in sideboards before. Repel can be a combat trick or a fog also. Interlude can protect against Yahenni's Expertise and Fumigate also. In Naya there is now Heroic Intervention, except it isn't good against Yahenni's Expertise. The problem is getting far enough ahead to hold up the mana. Not deploying to the board risks having nothing going on when Torrential Gearhulk starts rumbling. Against most Fumigate and Radiant Flames decks, I am siding into the Walker plan anyway. But I look forward eagerly to your reports. I'm probably just doing it wrong.
Gideon is the best plan if I'm honest. If anyone is doing it wrong, it's me.
Interlude probably isn't as ideal against Flames specifically given the cost is more awkward that early. I think that the usual rationing of threats vs sweepers is still valid here, so holding up mana against the 4-5 mana cards doesn't seem all that bad.
Interlude also has cute interactions with Lieutenants, since you can choose how many creatures to blink. I can imagine blinking one in response to spot removal, to both blank their removal and load up on a second round of counters. It could be a way to push damage for an alpha strike.
Yeah, current graveyard hate is almost exactly Kalitas, which doesn't work in any Humans deck I've seen. There is also Thopter Arrest to exile. It's been a while since I've played against this.
I don't recommend too many clunky removals. They have inevitability, but lack interactions and flying. I've always justmostly relied on my synergies to overwhelm them before they set up.
In RW, Mimic or Lieutenant and Garrison is probably the best way to generate the power you need. Try to avoid trading off the Garrison, obviously. In GW, Champion is great at making blocks bad and putting you far ahead. Gisela and other cards that let you punch through damage seem good, but I haven't really tried them: Key, Gryff's Boon, Magmatic Chasm. Obviously, Naya can do all those things.
I guess their best new toy is Yahenni's Expertise, so expect it post board.
I expect to see lots of Fumigate in the near future to deal with G/B.
Despite the pros being against garrison I think 3 power is great right now vs. ballista and shock. There might be a slightly beefier list which cuts back on the one drops like envoy which are really bad against a see of 2/3 creatures anyway.
For the Naya buils I would focus on wither unbridled growth and a revolt strategy. (Shadowlands are terrible in the naya build) or Energy based with the Hub, Harnessed lightning but a strait energy deck may be better that naya humans.
If you are pursuing a revolt humans build a move to Abzan humans give you fatal push and the siphoner.
Unfortunately we had draft last night for FNM. I did get to play several games vs a UR control deck, as well as against my GR Stompy deck before and between rounds (all unsided).
I made some last minute changes, adjusting the spells and cutting a couple in preference for more threats. Dec gets the nod over Shock in the main in light of the performance of GB.
I went 2-3 vs UR control. They had a ton of cheap Red spot removal so it was very difficult to mount any pressure before Gearhulks started attacking.
Vs Green Stompy I went 4-1. I think they should have won one of those games, but got stuck on 4 mana with 3x Verdurous in hand. Otherwise Key really overperformed here, allowing me to get past all their ground pounders.
Played against a WR Humans deck online. They were rocking Always Watching and Garrison. Looked impressive. I think I'm going to drop the Key/Temper package and play 3 Always Watching and 4 Shock instead.
It's a bit unoptimized, Metallic Mimics are hard to find and I'll probably try to find some way to fit Fatal Push in (I don't like removing creatures, but Night Market Lookout has been unimpressive). It does basically the same thing as Mono-White Humans did during the first few weeks of SOI standard, and Glint Sleeve Siphoner has been AMAZING, there are a few black cards in here but honestly splashing for just Siphoner would be worth it. Though I am interested in trying out the White/Red version of Humans.
I've run over Saheeli combo in the few games I played against it, what I'm more worried about is the G/B Counters deck (and to an extent G/B Delirium). I didn't get to play against it, but from what I noticed they go way harder than us and only slightly slower than we do, so going under won't always be an option, and Walking Ballista seems nuts against us. How have you guys done against the Counters deck? I've noticed that we put more crap on the board, but that doesn't always win the race.
Been a while since I posted. I am back, decided to go to GW since Bant Humans is pointless without reflector mage, and my mana base was to poor. Let me know what you guys think about a list like this for Game Day, in a mostly unknown meta. Around 20 people show up to my store to play, mostly from other more competitive stores. I don't have a lot of experience with BG and the Saheeli lists, though I know at least one person will be on 4-color Saheeli. One person probably on a Panharmonicon gearhulk list. Any suggestions on sideboard tech for an unknown meta?
Explanation on a few choices:
I want to try Lone Rider, think it is very strong, and it should be easy to flip with 4 Heron's Grace Champions and Gisela, the Broken Blade. Ulvenwald Mysteries is a card I am quite fond of in control/sweeper matchups. When your creatures die, they give you ways to refill your hand, and when you refill your hand, you get human tokens, to chump block or come in and buff Thalia's Lieutenant. The 2 Sigarda, Heron's Grace are there as a finisher and a way to put a clock in the air. Turning off spot removal against your army is very strong as well. The Gisela, the Broken Blade and Bruna, the Fading Light package is insane if it gets online, and while I haven't seen it done, I can imagine it basically eliminates the Saheeli decks. The only trouble would be surviving long enough to get there.
Only concerns I have is a potential lack of removal, especially instant speed to deal with Saheeli or Torrential Gearhulk. Should I remove a creatures to up the removal count? I could move the Giselas to the sideboard, and then side in the complete Brisela, Voice of Nightmares package in game 2, hope to surprise opponents.
From the few times I've been able to play it, the matchup seems incredibly poor. You need to have a fast start AND have your relevant removal spells to keep their board clean. Much like us, their deck has strong syngergies but theirs are just much more powerful overall. Winding Constrictor is a great turn two blocker and they have Fatal Push which is just a complete blowout against us along with just being a super good tempo play as well. And yeah, Walking Ballista makes combat a nightmare. I wish I could run more than 4 Declaration in Stone just for this matchup alone.
As for your list, I would strongly recommend running at least 2 Fragmentize to deal with Aethersphere Harvester, that card is a total nightmare vs us.
yeah this is what I was afraid of, I don't know how my build will work against it, I guess I'll just have to hope Stern Constable is able to put in work against them. It's the matchup I had in mind when I put the full playset of him in. The Ballista is just a nightmare tho, but occasionally our creatures should get big enough for him not to matter too much. Still, we definitely need to test the matchup more and work ways to fight it if it's our biggest problem. And yeah, I can't believe I forgot artifact hate.
This list looks fun! Outnumber is definitely a card red builds should get used to playing, it's so damn good at clearing blockers. One criticism I have is that it looks a bit heavy: 8 three drops seems like a bit much. They're all pretty powerful, but I think it could trim some fat. I think Hanweir Garrison is one of the biggest appeals to playing Red especially with Reflector Mage gone, in fact I think the deck should play one more main, and you want to keep your artifact count relatively high for Inventor's Apprentice so Pia Nalaar should stay in, and obviously Always Watching is a must, so that leaves cutting the three Thalia, Heretic Cathar which should be fine. I'm also not a big fan of Incendiary Flow over Shock, seems slower and less efficient, it does kill Winding Constrictor but 2 mana is just so expensive. 4 Needle Spires main seems like a bit much too.
Those are just my opinions, tho. I didn't make Top 32, after all.
I've been trying to fool around with a g/w humans variant, which plays lieutenant, mimic, AND maulfist revolutionary, which acts as its own anthem when it enters or dies. I also played around with Renegade Rallier and eerie interlude, but the deck feels clunky with all the removal around. I've also played with going from 8 to 12 one drops, back to 8. At any rate, I just didn't know if anyone has tried to go the +1/+1 counter route, the way B/G has, with humans.
Private Mod Note
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"I hope to have such a death—lying in triumph upon the broken bodies of those who slew me."
—Radha, Keldon warlord
I've been trying to fool around with a g/w humans variant, which plays lieutenant, mimic, AND maulfist revolutionary, which acts as its own anthem when it enters or dies. I also played around with Renegade Rallier and eerie interlude, but the deck feels clunky with all the removal around. I've also played with going from 8 to 12 one drops, back to 8. At any rate, I just didn't know if anyone has tried to go the +1/+1 counter route, the way B/G has, with humans.
There's a thread for that.
I've thought about it. I dunno, though. The best +1/+1 counter cards are not necessarily Humans. Without enough Humans, Mimic and Lieutenant aren't good. I'd love for you to come up with an inspired version that balances them well.
Really, the biggest problem is that Mimic is a 2-drop. Playing a 2/1 for 2 eating up our second turn sucks when we need to be aggro. It means that we can't start making powerful plays until t3. Without haste we are not hitting hard until turn 4. To compete with a curve of snek into Rishkar, we need something like T1 1-drop, T2 2 1-drops, T3 Always Watching.
I can say I'm disappointed to not see WR Humans show up with much of a presence. I'm unsure if SCG gave any day 2 meta figures in their broadcast.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
The implications I see for building and playing could be that Always Watching is more important in deckbuilding and more likely to be played earlier. Also, sniping the ballista first becomes a priority over playing out certain creatures. I don't think we can be as good for Ballista as Winding Constrictor decks, but the Ballistae still merit consideration at least for sideboarding against copycat, if not maindeck.
In addition, here is a bit of a tournament report.
I took the deck below to a four round event tonight, going 2-2 despite punting away the first game in three of my matches.
Match 1: BR Pia's Revolution - Ravenous Intruder Artifact Sacrifice Shenanigans - Win 1-0
G1 Opponent got Pia's Revolution out early on the play. I threw away creatures unnecessarily and fell to the accumulation of Pia's Revolution triggers along with some Ravenous Intruder beats. Scrounger's inability to block was very relevant here.
Sideboard -4 Harnessed Lightning, +2 Fragmentize, +1 Declaration, +1 Stasis Snare
G2 Garrison got going after an early Mimic. 'Nuf said
G3 Thalia and some Scroungers helped fell to Yahenni's Expertise before a Garrison carried the day.
Match 2: Jeskai Saheeli Combo Control. Win 2-0
G1 Despite identifying opponent as being on the combo, I stupidly tapped out unnecessarily (with Harnessed Lightning in hand!) to give away the game.
Sideboard: + Everything but Fragmentize, Declaration and Selfless Spirit, -4 Inventor's Apprentice, -4 Metallic Mimic, -1 Hanweir Militia Captain, -2 Others
G2: A good start into Garrison went well.
G3: Traded stuff, but ended up with a Lieutenant then stuck a Gideon on turn 4. T5 attacked through a Blessed Alliance (sac attacking Knight Ally Token), then stuck a Chandra. Opponent tried to attack Gideon with a Wandering Fumarole, but it got Shocked when it became a 4/1. Landed planeswalkers are good against control.
Match 3: GB Delirium. Loss 2-1
G1: A turn 2 unanswered Winding Constrictor led to some truly disgusting shananigans.
Sideboard: -2 Shock, +1 Declaration, +1 Snare
G2: I was holding off Grim Flayer on the play until a blind Mindwrack created Delirium in one shot. With no removal, Mimics or Lieutenants, my stuff was outclassed.
Match 3: GB Delirium. Loss 2-2
G1: After my Hanweir Militia Captain got Pushed out of the way, a Grim Flayer put three types in the graveyard. I stupidly ignored the Evolving Wilds that would make Delirium and threw away a creature on a bad block
Sideboard: -2 Shock, +1 Declaration, +1 Snare
G2: I got a Scrounger and an Inspector down, Lightninged a Grim Flayer and Thalia slowed the reinforcements enough to get there.
G3: Got him down to 2 with an active Key. He removed or Grasped to powerlessness my unblockable attackers until I left only 2 blockers because Scrounger can't block. That allowed him to remove the remaining blockers and get there exactly. Had I made Scrounger unbloockable the last time rather than the 4/5 Apprentice, he couldn't have made that line work.
4 Inventor's Apprentice
4 Thraben Inspector
1 Town Gossipmonger
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
1 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells:11
2 Shock
1 Always Watching
2 Unlicensed Disintegration
4 Harnessed Lightning
1 Key to the City
1 Renegade Map
4 Aether Hub
4 Inspiring Vantage
5 Mountain
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Fragmentize
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Repel the Abominable
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Stasis Snare
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Gisela, the Broken Blade
1 Hanweir Battlements
3 Needle Spires
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Reflections on the evening:
Town GossipmongerHanweir Militia Captain (edit) is almost the definition of win more. Between needing answers to the combo and GB Delirium needing removal to up the Delirium count, ain't nobody letting you get to 4 creatures.Revised list.
Revised deck:
4 Inventor's Apprentice
4 Thraben Inspector
1 Town Gossipmonger
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
1 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Spells:11
1 Renegade Map
2 Shock
1 Declaration in Stone
4 Harnessed Lightning
1 Key to the City
2 Unlicensed Disintegration
4 Aether Hub
4 Inspiring Vantage
5 Mountain
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Fragmentize
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Magmatic Chasm
1 Kari Zev's Expertise
1 Stasis Snare
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Gisela, the Broken Blade
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Needle Spires
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
too many shadowlands will kill you because you only have 9 basics to make them enter untapped. I vote for Maining Garrisong since i see that card as the main reason to run Red (plus it combos really well with mimic) just my .02 cents
I think T1 Envoy into T2 Brawler is unlikely. I would either cut W 1-drops or replace Brawler with Pacifist, Mimic or Recruiter.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
My solution to the difficult Naya mana base was to run Brawler and give up on 1-drops, but I am eager to see people make other things work. With a curve that goes to 4 and 3 colors, I think Evolving Wilds, basics and some BFZ duals are better than the Shadow duals.
Here is what I'd be doing in Naya, but it's not adjusted to the meta. I think the manabase is worth a look. It definitely needs more mainboard interaction. Shock would be good, I think. Rishkar might be good enough to be an honorary human.
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Voltaic Brawler
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Heron's Grace Champion
1 Archangel Avacyn
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
4 Harnessed Lightning
Lands
4 Aether Hub
2 Canopy Vista
1 Cinder Glade
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Forest
1 Hanweir Battlements
4 Inspiring Vantage
2 Mountain
3 Plains
1 Dragonmaster Outcast
2 Fragmentize
1 Declaration in Stone
2 Stasis Snare
1 Ulvenwald Mysteries
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Archangel Avacyn
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
1 Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
1 Combustible Gearhulk
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
4x Canopy Vista
1x Westvale Abbey
4x Evolving Wilds
4x Inspiring Vantage
5x Forest
2x Mountain
4x Plains
3x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creatures
4x Hanweir Garrison
4x Heron's Grace Champion
3x Lone Rider
3x Maulfist Revolutionary
4x Metallic Mimic
2x Pia Nalaar
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
3x Tireless Tracker
2x Declaration in Stone
4x Harnessed Lightning
Again no sideboard, I dropped the Voltaic Brawler because I dont think of it as a reliable creature with trample, so Im streching the mana with the Maulfist, i may add Aether hubs to the mana base but im still thinking about it.
Lone rider is a secret sauce which i remembered my times that I used him to fill slots in the GW. Since we are using herons grace champion and +1/+1 counters tactics we can flip him quite easily and having a 6/6 with trample, first strike and lifelink is big, and helps in the lategame.
Reemplacing gideon for always watching is a good trade if we want to survive an early yahenis expertise. but that depends on the meta
@Tyraelxy: I'd definitely run Evolving Wilds in that list to enable Rallier and Tracker.
@Asakurazero: Your curve seems a bit high. No 1-drops at all. I can imagine the double green on Maulfist will be difficult as well.
@Hoser2: Repel was Radiant Flames insurance. Though, someone pointed out Eerie Interlude as an option to dodge sweepers. I haven't gotten a chance to try it, but it seems interesting.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Yeah. They could be good. I've run them both in sideboards before. Repel can be a combat trick or a fog also. Interlude can protect against Yahenni's Expertise and Fumigate also. In Naya there is now Heroic Intervention, except it isn't good against Yahenni's Expertise. The problem is getting far enough ahead to hold up the mana. Not deploying to the board risks having nothing going on when Torrential Gearhulk starts rumbling. Against most Fumigate and Radiant Flames decks, I am siding into the Walker plan anyway. But I look forward eagerly to your reports. I'm probably just doing it wrong.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Interlude probably isn't as ideal against Flames specifically given the cost is more awkward that early. I think that the usual rationing of threats vs sweepers is still valid here, so holding up mana against the 4-5 mana cards doesn't seem all that bad.
Interlude also has cute interactions with Lieutenants, since you can choose how many creatures to blink. I can imagine blinking one in response to spot removal, to both blank their removal and load up on a second round of counters. It could be a way to push damage for an alpha strike.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Exile and gravehate is not enough in current Type2 I suppose.
Yeah, current graveyard hate is almost exactly Kalitas, which doesn't work in any Humans deck I've seen. There is also Thopter Arrest to exile. It's been a while since I've played against this.
I don't recommend too many clunky removals. They have inevitability, but lack interactions and flying. I've always
justmostly relied on my synergies to overwhelm them before they set up.In RW, Mimic or Lieutenant and Garrison is probably the best way to generate the power you need. Try to avoid trading off the Garrison, obviously. In GW, Champion is great at making blocks bad and putting you far ahead. Gisela and other cards that let you punch through damage seem good, but I haven't really tried them: Key, Gryff's Boon, Magmatic Chasm. Obviously, Naya can do all those things.
I guess their best new toy is Yahenni's Expertise, so expect it post board.
Edit: Craig Wescoe has a GW Human Tokens deck over on Tcgplayer.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Despite the pros being against garrison I think 3 power is great right now vs. ballista and shock. There might be a slightly beefier list which cuts back on the one drops like envoy which are really bad against a see of 2/3 creatures anyway.
For the Naya buils I would focus on wither unbridled growth and a revolt strategy. (Shadowlands are terrible in the naya build) or Energy based with the Hub, Harnessed lightning but a strait energy deck may be better that naya humans.
If you are pursuing a revolt humans build a move to Abzan humans give you fatal push and the siphoner.
3 Expedition Envoy
4 Inventor's Apprentice
4 Thraben Inspector
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Declaration in Stone
3 Key to the City
4 Fiery Temper
Lands:22
2 Aether Hub
4 Inspiring Vantage
6 Mountain
4 Needle Spires
6 Plains
2 Gisela, the Broken Blade
2 Authority of the Consuls
2 Fragmentize
1 Release the Gremlins
3 Shock
1 Magmatic Chasm
2 Eerie Interlude
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
I made some last minute changes, adjusting the spells and cutting a couple in preference for more threats. Dec gets the nod over Shock in the main in light of the performance of GB.
I went 2-3 vs UR control. They had a ton of cheap Red spot removal so it was very difficult to mount any pressure before Gearhulks started attacking.
Vs Green Stompy I went 4-1. I think they should have won one of those games, but got stuck on 4 mana with 3x Verdurous in hand. Otherwise Key really overperformed here, allowing me to get past all their ground pounders.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Stern Constable
4 Town Gossipmonger
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
2 Night Market Lookout
1 Thalia, Heretic Cather
1 Metallic Mimic
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
3 Declaration in Stone
3 Always Watching
1 Anguished Unmaking
Lands
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Aether Hub
2 Shambling Vents
9 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Collective Effort
2 Hanweir Militia Captain
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Transgress the Mind
1 Gryff's Boon
1 Swamp
It's a bit unoptimized, Metallic Mimics are hard to find and I'll probably try to find some way to fit Fatal Push in (I don't like removing creatures, but Night Market Lookout has been unimpressive). It does basically the same thing as Mono-White Humans did during the first few weeks of SOI standard, and Glint Sleeve Siphoner has been AMAZING, there are a few black cards in here but honestly splashing for just Siphoner would be worth it. Though I am interested in trying out the White/Red version of Humans.
I've run over Saheeli combo in the few games I played against it, what I'm more worried about is the G/B Counters deck (and to an extent G/B Delirium). I didn't get to play against it, but from what I noticed they go way harder than us and only slightly slower than we do, so going under won't always be an option, and Walking Ballista seems nuts against us. How have you guys done against the Counters deck? I've noticed that we put more crap on the board, but that doesn't always win the race.
4 Metallic Mimic
3 Expedition Envoy
1 Hanweir Garrison
4 Inventor's Apprentice
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Town Gossipmonger
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 Pia Nalaar
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Always Watching
4 Outnumber
2 Incendiary Flow
Lands (21)
5 Mountain
8 Plains
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Needle Spires
1 Hanweir Garrison
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
3 Selfless Spirit
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Destructive Tampering
2 Fragmentize
1 Hanweir Battlements
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
4 Canopy Vista
6 Forest
4 Fortified Village
9 Plains
1 Westvale Abbey
Enchantments
3 Always Watching
Removal
3 Stasis Snare
2 Declaration in Stone
4 Thraben Inspector
2 Lone Rider
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Heron's Grace Champion
2 Gisela, the Broken Blade
2 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
2 Authority of the Consuls
1 Bruna, the Fading Light
2 Fragmentize
1 Fumigate
2 Gryff's Boon
1 Linvala, the Preserver
2 Quarantine Field
2 Thalia's Lancers
2 Ulvenwald Mysteries
Been a while since I posted. I am back, decided to go to GW since Bant Humans is pointless without reflector mage, and my mana base was to poor. Let me know what you guys think about a list like this for Game Day, in a mostly unknown meta. Around 20 people show up to my store to play, mostly from other more competitive stores. I don't have a lot of experience with BG and the Saheeli lists, though I know at least one person will be on 4-color Saheeli. One person probably on a Panharmonicon gearhulk list. Any suggestions on sideboard tech for an unknown meta?
Explanation on a few choices:
I want to try Lone Rider, think it is very strong, and it should be easy to flip with 4 Heron's Grace Champions and Gisela, the Broken Blade. Ulvenwald Mysteries is a card I am quite fond of in control/sweeper matchups. When your creatures die, they give you ways to refill your hand, and when you refill your hand, you get human tokens, to chump block or come in and buff Thalia's Lieutenant. The 2 Sigarda, Heron's Grace are there as a finisher and a way to put a clock in the air. Turning off spot removal against your army is very strong as well. The Gisela, the Broken Blade and Bruna, the Fading Light package is insane if it gets online, and while I haven't seen it done, I can imagine it basically eliminates the Saheeli decks. The only trouble would be surviving long enough to get there.
Only concerns I have is a potential lack of removal, especially instant speed to deal with Saheeli or Torrential Gearhulk. Should I remove a creatures to up the removal count? I could move the Giselas to the sideboard, and then side in the complete Brisela, Voice of Nightmares package in game 2, hope to surprise opponents.
yeah this is what I was afraid of, I don't know how my build will work against it, I guess I'll just have to hope Stern Constable is able to put in work against them. It's the matchup I had in mind when I put the full playset of him in. The Ballista is just a nightmare tho, but occasionally our creatures should get big enough for him not to matter too much. Still, we definitely need to test the matchup more and work ways to fight it if it's our biggest problem. And yeah, I can't believe I forgot artifact hate.
This list looks fun! Outnumber is definitely a card red builds should get used to playing, it's so damn good at clearing blockers. One criticism I have is that it looks a bit heavy: 8 three drops seems like a bit much. They're all pretty powerful, but I think it could trim some fat. I think Hanweir Garrison is one of the biggest appeals to playing Red especially with Reflector Mage gone, in fact I think the deck should play one more main, and you want to keep your artifact count relatively high for Inventor's Apprentice so Pia Nalaar should stay in, and obviously Always Watching is a must, so that leaves cutting the three Thalia, Heretic Cathar which should be fine. I'm also not a big fan of Incendiary Flow over Shock, seems slower and less efficient, it does kill Winding Constrictor but 2 mana is just so expensive. 4 Needle Spires main seems like a bit much too.
Those are just my opinions, tho. I didn't make Top 32, after all.
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Inventor's Apprentice
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Metallic Mimic
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
1 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Always Watching
3 Declaration in Stone
3 Shock
Lands (22)
6 Mountain
10 Plains
4 Inspiring Vantage
2 Needle Spires
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
2 Eerie Interlude
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Destructive Tampering
2 Fragmentize
2 Bygone Bishop
1 Declaration in Stone
2 Gisela, the Broken Blade
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
—Radha, Keldon warlord
There's a thread for that.
I've thought about it. I dunno, though. The best +1/+1 counter cards are not necessarily Humans. Without enough Humans, Mimic and Lieutenant aren't good. I'd love for you to come up with an inspired version that balances them well.
Really, the biggest problem is that Mimic is a 2-drop. Playing a 2/1 for 2 eating up our second turn sucks when we need to be aggro. It means that we can't start making powerful plays until t3. Without haste we are not hitting hard until turn 4. To compete with a curve of snek into Rishkar, we need something like T1 1-drop, T2 2 1-drops, T3 Always Watching.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.