If we can get something that draws cards and has a body, while also being a spirit and thus being able to have synergy with the rest of the deck, that will solve some issues with fuel that the current iterations have. For example, We can get by on Ongoing Investigation and Dragonlord Ojutai, but I'm not sure I want to see either in my opening hand. I did try Anticipate, but it's not as good as I would like it to be due to having to put the other cards on the bottom instead of having a choice in the matter.
p
We have one that give a clue. Not the same but close..
The clue mechanic is good, but it feels better for a build focused on winning in the late game. Spirits so far wants to win early to mid game and to do that we need more immediate pay offs. Last night I won first place at FNM with spirits and was trying out the Ongoing Investigation option. Everytime I drew it the card was basically a dead draw and never actually got played. Dragonlord Ojutai feels good but is rotating out soon, which is a shame since I like it against delirium decks that pack a ton of removal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The other aspect that might help spirits is a third color splash, such as going for Red or Black. My preference would be for red if we can get Bygone Bishop to work in combination with something like Shrapnel blast, which might actually show up in Kaladesh given it's focus on innovation.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Pretty much. That's why I'm hoping for some good options that might help fill in the gaps we are missing in the line up. I feel that having something with cantrip that is relevant will be a big help.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Game Rundown!
We had 36 total players and did 6-round swiss into top 8 cut.
Round 1: WIN vs U/R Alchemist
I had a god hand both draws and defeated him within 5 turns each time and he didn't have a chance to do anything. Overall I feel like we have a feast/famine matchup with this as it is really draw dependent. We can steamroll early but will lose late game.
Round 2: LOSS vs G/B Delirium
This was a depressing loss. It was a great back and forth game with me taking an easy Game 1, him taking a close Game 2, and then Game 3 I had him at 1 life when he stabilized. I couldn't have played any differently and had no mistakes; I just lost the tempo and the game by a topdeck.
Round 3: WIN vs G/B Delirium
Another Delirium matchup but this one wasn't even a contest, my opponent had mana difficulties and I just pushed through for 2 easy wins.
Round 4: WIN vs Bant CoCo
This was a scary game, where my opponent should have won due to some stupid good Collected Company plays, but I got lucky by him choosing to play Tamiyo, Field Researcher to tap my creatures when he could have animated his land for a win. Luckily I had an Essence Flux which allowed me to blink my Rattler to give hex to my Queller, and allowed me to take the win. I think we have a solid matchup vs company but they have the ability to outrace us hard.
Round 5: DRAW
My opponent for Round 5 was the guy who accompanied me to the event so instead of risking knocking each other out, we decided to take the DRAW which would give both of us the chance for Top 8 if we won our next round.
Round 6: DRAW vs U/G Crush
This matchup is not as familiar to me, so I made some mistakes in play and the game ended up going on longer than necessary due to me reading her cards, her deck naturally being slow etc. I took game 1 barely, but then game 2 lasted a long time. In my exhaustion I was under the impression we were in Game 3 and I knew that draw wouldn't get me nor my opponent into Top 8, so I started playing really fast with only a few minutes left on the round clock, but unfortunately that was a bad decision for me, as by doing that it allowed my opponent to come back to beat me as I expected. However if I had realized that we were only in Game 2, I would have simply played at a normal pace and wouldve taken the 1-0-1 win. It's unfortunate, but it was my stupidity. I think we have a strong matchup vs Crush because counter spells are so powerful against them. They can stall out a lot, which can run us out of gas, but overall I think we can beat this.
With that I placed 10th and just missed Top 8. I need to do some more tuning, but I feel this deck is definitely Tier 2, but still has some really strong matchups.
Card Feedback! Overperformers: Essence Flux was amazingly good so many times in this event. Although I had tuned it down to 2, I may end up upping it to 3 again just due to the amount of interactions and plays this gives us.
Imprisoned in the Moon performed extremely well also. I think it is still sideboard tech as there are many matchups where it isn't needed, but overall I was really pleased. I managed to remove some big threats and the ramping aspect was never relevant. I stand by this card being undervalued.
Invasive Surgery may be next to impossible to hit it's Delirium effect but I like this over Dispel personally as the matchups I sided it in against, it was quite relevant.
Negate is just such a powerful card right now. I'm tempted to move up to 2 main just due to every single deck being so reliant upon some type of non-creature spell, whether it be CoCo, Crush, Planeswalkers, or just removal.
Underperformers: Selfless Spirit was disappointing as usual. I tuned it to 3 for a reason and a last minute change to 4 wasn't the best call. It isn't inherently bad but it just isn't that good in this deck that I want it every hand and in multiples. I'll be fine moving back to 3 on this one.
Notable Mentions: Nebelgast Herald was a bit awkward for some reason. I think it related to my matchups and that I didn't face any creatures strategies, but it just wasn't as relevant as in testing. I may be tempted to move this guy to 2 if the meta keeps shifting towards these less creature-centric decks.
Archangel Avacyn was rarely relevant. I think I need to move her to 3, as I just didn't draw her nor get the chance to really use her effectively. I'm honestly not sure if the deck ultimately needs her, but I plan to still continue to use her as I think she offers a lot.
Clash of Wills was a little disappointing but not greatly so. I'm planning to start testing some Spell Shrivel but I'm not sure of the numbers yet and I do still feel that Clash is a strong card in this deck overall.
Thunderclap Wyvern is a card that I want to give another chance to. Always Watching performed exceptionally well, but the Vigilance was never a significant factor. I'm thinking that Wyvern may be a better choice as it continues to pressure with its body also, but this will need to be tested.
As always, any feedback is appreciated! I came just short of my goal again today, but I think I'll do something significant with this deck soon!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How can we truly be free, if we are held in the bondage of clothing?
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
What would you call a good starting hand with this deck? I'm running something very similar and I've noticed that whenever I start with Mausoleum Wanderer and at least two land, one of which is a U source that I can play right away, I have great games.
In my case, Clash of Wills has been absolutely necessary to deal with early Lilianas, given the lack of removal besides Imprisoned in the Moon
2-3 lands, Mausoleum Wanderer (turn one), Selfless Spirit and/or Rattlechains (turn 2), Essence Flux or Clash of Wills and Spell Queller (turn 3). Nebelgast Heald, Reflector Mage and Archangel Avacyn are generally better later in the game.
Best game I had was Turn one Mausoleum Wanderer, turn 2 2x Mausoleum Waderer. Hit for 3 on turn 2 and 6 on turn 3 (with another spirit drop).
Just not enough removable to beat the dang eldrazi. I'm thinking making spirits more agrro. Maybe 4 always watching and 4 declaration in stone..
Hit hard in the air with strong remove ale
Testing too come...
I've been on a aggro version for awhile, I have been doing good locally. I know it's not as popular because I run topplegeist but it works for me. I don't think the control or tempo versions are that good at the moment. Maybe after rotation a more controlling version may be playable.
Here's my main - SB since it changes so much, but, I usually run more controlling cards in the sb to be able to switch to a control tempo build if needed.
If I understand how doubling an ETB ability works...
Take Nebelgast Herald for example:
"Flash (You may cast this spell any time you could cast an instant.)
Flying
Whenever Nebelgast Herald or another Spirit enters the battlefield under your control, tap target creature an opponent controls."
From what I understand, ETB effects take place once the permanent that has the ETB effect resolves and is on the battlefield.
So in this example, Herald would tap 2 creatures when he resolves.
ALSO, since his ability says "or another spirit" he taps 2 creatures instead of one.
Now, I think Mausoleum Wanderer might also benefit from a double ETB trigger.
"Whenever another Spirit enters the battlefield under your control, Mausoleum Wanderer gets +1/+1 until end of turn."
So It might work out that since it triggers twice, He would get +2/+2 until end of turn.
This would make him a mana leak on a body.
Now, this is all in theory.
Since we're not talking about any future cards here, we have no idea if spirits will ever benefit from this ability in standard.
We can only sit back and play our PAN flute or our HARMONICON /cough/ I mean harmonica and see what the future may hold for spirits.
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
Yeah, Kaladesh will surely bring us something we can use. I think the Vehicle mechanic may be something that can be incorporated depending on what we see.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How can we truly be free, if we are held in the bondage of clothing?
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
Well since we can't talk about future cards, I'd say that if there were to be some sort of card that allowed our spirits to activate a certain ability...
*sigh*
Yeah, vehicles can be bombs in aggro decks in the mid to late game.
In that case, I think the deck would have to go more midrange, but I don't think Spirits greatly benefits from double etbs enough to be relevant.
Also, your note on how Nebelgast Herald felt and performed mirrors my own experience against the non-creature strategies I faced. It's why they all got side boarded from my deck and instead were getting replaced with more utility spells. Selfless spirit has saved me a lot more than I like, though. I'm not sure I'd play it as a 4 of and with Kaladesh now giving enemy fast lands I may try splashing for black and try to get in on this energy mechanic. It seems very flexible, even more so than the Collective cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
In that case, I think the deck would have to go more midrange, but I don't think Spirits greatly benefits from double etbs enough to be relevant.
Also, your note on how Nebelgast Herald felt and performed mirrors my own experience against the non-creature strategies I faced. It's why they all got side boarded from my deck and instead were getting replaced with more utility spells. Selfless spirit has saved me a lot more than I like, though. I'm not sure I'd play it as a 4 of and with Kaladesh now giving enemy fast lands I may try splashing for black and try to get in on this energy mechanic. It seems very flexible, even more so than the Collective cards.
I was thinking green to add tamiyo for her card draw.
The card that makes black attractive to me is Gonti, lord of luxury. That may be a very good payoff card or a really bad one, but it depends on how we want to play the deck. The other factor is how good energy is in the set. That and Collective Brutality. Tamyo might still be a better payoff in the long run, though.
There's a lot of powerful control deck style cards that have been spoiled thus far.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Hey guys and gals, per usual, discussion of Kaladesh cards is only allowed in Standard New Card Discussion until the entire set is spoiled. Thanks! -- Lugger
The G/B Delirium decks are really roll-dependent, in that if you lose the die roll, you have a much higher chance to lose the game. For my deck, where I run more counter/control than normal, I think the important cards are definitely Always Watching and Negate. This is an example of where the main board Negates can make a big difference. In the current meta, I think that's pretty easy to support and offers us a lot more comfortability in this matchup but ultimately it comes down to hoping to have the counters for their big threats. They're susceptible to our control and we just have to play that to our advantage.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How can we truly be free, if we are held in the bondage of clothing?
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
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The clue mechanic is good, but it feels better for a build focused on winning in the late game. Spirits so far wants to win early to mid game and to do that we need more immediate pay offs. Last night I won first place at FNM with spirits and was trying out the Ongoing Investigation option. Everytime I drew it the card was basically a dead draw and never actually got played. Dragonlord Ojutai feels good but is rotating out soon, which is a shame since I like it against delirium decks that pack a ton of removal.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1) A version of Venser, Shaper Savant.
2) Phantasmal Image OR Clever Impersonator. Probably wont see it, but a mimic like that would be excellent.
3) Wrath of God. Give me a 4 cmc board wipe that doesn't feel like it's a compromise.
4) Remand.
5) Silvergill Adept for spirits.
The other aspect that might help spirits is a third color splash, such as going for Red or Black. My preference would be for red if we can get Bygone Bishop to work in combination with something like Shrapnel blast, which might actually show up in Kaladesh given it's focus on innovation.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Just not enough removable to beat the dang eldrazi. I'm thinking making spirits more agrro. Maybe 4 always watching and 4 declaration in stone..
Hit hard in the air with strong remove ale
Testing too come...
4 Rattlechains
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Spell Queller
4 Selfless Spirit
3 Nebelgast Herald
2 Archangel Avacyn
Non-Creature: 15
3 Clash of Wills
2 Essence Flux
1 Ojutai's Command
3 Unsubstantiate
1 Negate
1 Summary Dismissal
2 Stasis Snare
2 Always Watching
4 Prairie Stream
4 Port Town
8 Island
8 Plains
2 Negate
1 Summary Dismissal
1 Planar Outburst
1 Collective Effort
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Imprisoned in the Moon
1 Ojutai's Command
1 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Horribly Awry
2 Invasive Surgery
Game Rundown!
We had 36 total players and did 6-round swiss into top 8 cut.
Round 1: WIN vs U/R Alchemist
I had a god hand both draws and defeated him within 5 turns each time and he didn't have a chance to do anything. Overall I feel like we have a feast/famine matchup with this as it is really draw dependent. We can steamroll early but will lose late game.
Round 2: LOSS vs G/B Delirium
This was a depressing loss. It was a great back and forth game with me taking an easy Game 1, him taking a close Game 2, and then Game 3 I had him at 1 life when he stabilized. I couldn't have played any differently and had no mistakes; I just lost the tempo and the game by a topdeck.
Round 3: WIN vs G/B Delirium
Another Delirium matchup but this one wasn't even a contest, my opponent had mana difficulties and I just pushed through for 2 easy wins.
Round 4: WIN vs Bant CoCo
This was a scary game, where my opponent should have won due to some stupid good Collected Company plays, but I got lucky by him choosing to play Tamiyo, Field Researcher to tap my creatures when he could have animated his land for a win. Luckily I had an Essence Flux which allowed me to blink my Rattler to give hex to my Queller, and allowed me to take the win. I think we have a solid matchup vs company but they have the ability to outrace us hard.
Round 5: DRAW
My opponent for Round 5 was the guy who accompanied me to the event so instead of risking knocking each other out, we decided to take the DRAW which would give both of us the chance for Top 8 if we won our next round.
Round 6: DRAW vs U/G Crush
This matchup is not as familiar to me, so I made some mistakes in play and the game ended up going on longer than necessary due to me reading her cards, her deck naturally being slow etc. I took game 1 barely, but then game 2 lasted a long time. In my exhaustion I was under the impression we were in Game 3 and I knew that draw wouldn't get me nor my opponent into Top 8, so I started playing really fast with only a few minutes left on the round clock, but unfortunately that was a bad decision for me, as by doing that it allowed my opponent to come back to beat me as I expected. However if I had realized that we were only in Game 2, I would have simply played at a normal pace and wouldve taken the 1-0-1 win. It's unfortunate, but it was my stupidity. I think we have a strong matchup vs Crush because counter spells are so powerful against them. They can stall out a lot, which can run us out of gas, but overall I think we can beat this.
With that I placed 10th and just missed Top 8. I need to do some more tuning, but I feel this deck is definitely Tier 2, but still has some really strong matchups.
Card Feedback!
Overperformers:
Essence Flux was amazingly good so many times in this event. Although I had tuned it down to 2, I may end up upping it to 3 again just due to the amount of interactions and plays this gives us.
Imprisoned in the Moon performed extremely well also. I think it is still sideboard tech as there are many matchups where it isn't needed, but overall I was really pleased. I managed to remove some big threats and the ramping aspect was never relevant. I stand by this card being undervalued.
Invasive Surgery may be next to impossible to hit it's Delirium effect but I like this over Dispel personally as the matchups I sided it in against, it was quite relevant.
Negate is just such a powerful card right now. I'm tempted to move up to 2 main just due to every single deck being so reliant upon some type of non-creature spell, whether it be CoCo, Crush, Planeswalkers, or just removal.
Underperformers:
Selfless Spirit was disappointing as usual. I tuned it to 3 for a reason and a last minute change to 4 wasn't the best call. It isn't inherently bad but it just isn't that good in this deck that I want it every hand and in multiples. I'll be fine moving back to 3 on this one.
Notable Mentions:
Nebelgast Herald was a bit awkward for some reason. I think it related to my matchups and that I didn't face any creatures strategies, but it just wasn't as relevant as in testing. I may be tempted to move this guy to 2 if the meta keeps shifting towards these less creature-centric decks.
Archangel Avacyn was rarely relevant. I think I need to move her to 3, as I just didn't draw her nor get the chance to really use her effectively. I'm honestly not sure if the deck ultimately needs her, but I plan to still continue to use her as I think she offers a lot.
Clash of Wills was a little disappointing but not greatly so. I'm planning to start testing some Spell Shrivel but I'm not sure of the numbers yet and I do still feel that Clash is a strong card in this deck overall.
Thunderclap Wyvern is a card that I want to give another chance to. Always Watching performed exceptionally well, but the Vigilance was never a significant factor. I'm thinking that Wyvern may be a better choice as it continues to pressure with its body also, but this will need to be tested.
As always, any feedback is appreciated! I came just short of my goal again today, but I think I'll do something significant with this deck soon!
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
In my case, Clash of Wills has been absolutely necessary to deal with early Lilianas, given the lack of removal besides Imprisoned in the Moon
Best game I had was Turn one Mausoleum Wanderer, turn 2 2x Mausoleum Waderer. Hit for 3 on turn 2 and 6 on turn 3 (with another spirit drop).
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Sad set so far....
With that being said, I hope this new set gives us a way to double ETB effects.
Here's my main - SB since it changes so much, but, I usually run more controlling cards in the sb to be able to switch to a control tempo build if needed.
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Topplegeist
4 Rattlechains
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Nebelgast Herald
4 Spell Queller
3 Essence Flux
4 Always Watching
4 Declaration in Stone
2 Secure the wastes
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
8 Island
7 Plains
Ah your right
What is double etb effect?
Take Nebelgast Herald for example:
"Flash (You may cast this spell any time you could cast an instant.)
Flying
Whenever Nebelgast Herald or another Spirit enters the battlefield under your control, tap target creature an opponent controls."
From what I understand, ETB effects take place once the permanent that has the ETB effect resolves and is on the battlefield.
So in this example, Herald would tap 2 creatures when he resolves.
ALSO, since his ability says "or another spirit" he taps 2 creatures instead of one.
Now, I think Mausoleum Wanderer might also benefit from a double ETB trigger.
"Whenever another Spirit enters the battlefield under your control, Mausoleum Wanderer gets +1/+1 until end of turn."
So It might work out that since it triggers twice, He would get +2/+2 until end of turn.
This would make him a mana leak on a body.
Now, this is all in theory.
Since we're not talking about any future cards here, we have no idea if spirits will ever benefit from this ability in standard.
We can only sit back and play our PAN flute or our HARMONICON /cough/ I mean harmonica and see what the future may hold for spirits.
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb
*sigh*
Yeah, vehicles can be bombs in aggro decks in the mid to late game.
Also, your note on how Nebelgast Herald felt and performed mirrors my own experience against the non-creature strategies I faced. It's why they all got side boarded from my deck and instead were getting replaced with more utility spells. Selfless spirit has saved me a lot more than I like, though. I'm not sure I'd play it as a 4 of and with Kaladesh now giving enemy fast lands I may try splashing for black and try to get in on this energy mechanic. It seems very flexible, even more so than the Collective cards.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I was thinking green to add tamiyo for her card draw.
Black might be good.
Hey I see you live close by. Very cool
There's a lot of powerful control deck style cards that have been spoiled thus far.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You have to play always watching is the way to beat Liliana
I also run 4 Declaration in Stone agaist it.helps agaist the spiders and other creatures.
Current Decks
Standard / Type 2
BRMidrange
"What kind of ability would say "counters black spells" on it? "If a Rigger you control would assemble a Contraption, it counters black spells instead"? "
-Mark Gottlieb