I never saw him cast an Advocate. And would think that he is trying to blank removal by not playing them. But they would make our creaturelands insane. I'm also not convinced that they slow Humans down enough to necessitate them.
I've been working on a more traditional B/G Rock deck (Hoogland-ish) that only has a few more creatures than Saffron's list (Dark Petition sideboard plan too), I'm thinking the Seasons Past package doesn't have to be that big. A couple Petitions and one Seasons should be enough to get the loop going by the time you have mana for it. I'm already running Pulse of Murasa and Den Protector so I'd just replace that engine.
I've been testing Saffron's list for a few hours and it's strong but can run out of gas if you draw too much 1-for-1 removal or whiff on discard spells before you can comfortably start looping Seasons. I don't think Transgress the Mind is good in this metagame against all the WW decks, I'd rather be running Thought-Knot Seer in the main deck for disruption plus beats if ramp makes a comeback. I can't wait to see what Finkel's actual card counts are though, I'm sure it's tuned way better.
I love that there are three flavors of B/G making waves right now (Dark Past, Aristocrats, Gitrog Rock), I sold my Jaces and dropped Esper Dragons because I think the dragons package has seen its best days already. Looks like I bought into the right colors for this standard!
@OP: Having just watched round five of the Pro Tour, good call on this deck, man. When I saw 'John Finkel: B/G Seasons Past', boy was I excited to watch that match.
@OP: Having just watched round five of the Pro Tour, good call on this deck, man. When I saw 'John Finkel: B/G Seasons Past', boy was I excited to watch that match.
I mean, the core of the deck is bang on. The pro's are pro's for a reason though. My Alms/trisk win con is obviously loose. But when I posted this I wanted a discussion, suggestions, criticism. I'm just happy its got some views and some people talking.
I think the core of the deck, those 26-32 cards are pretty solid and makes a pretty fun competitive deck.
If thats the type of game ya like to play obviously. Myself, I've never sleeved up a mono-red. This is my type of durdle. Love troll decks heh
I lost 0-2 to a humans list. My Transgress the Mind whiffed completely, and then I ran out of removal and my Languish got countered by Eerie Interlude. Thoughts?
Small sample size is my first thought.
Funny though that your Transgress whiffed but then you lost to an Eerie interlude.
If it hit his Eerie, totally different game right? So take it on the chin and get back on that horse.
Imho, a deck that durdle win Dark Petition and Season's Past, which do not impact the board and cost a lot of mana, should have a very bad match up against faster decks.
It's basically draw your Languish or die.
Grasp, Ultimate price make it so a Languish or die isn't entirely correct.
Dark Petition and Season's Past dont impact the board directly, but Petition gets you that board sweeper, or 7 life and three lands, Past gets you those 5 cards that previously impacted the board, back in hand, to impact the board again.
Finkel is now 12-1 with a deck full of cards that cost too much and dont impact the board.
Played this deck last night, made a hasty sideboard because I was running late. Damn does this deck do nothing! Now I know I'm a nobody that tested at fnm and finkel is a pro having a great run at a pro tour but I think this was a Meta deck.
Deck 'went off' twice in three matches and even when I was doing everything, I wasn't really closing the game out.
Rd 1 against rb dragons, game two I lose to a top deck DL, game three I just have no gas after he takes away key pieces of my hand.
Rd 2 I lose to this terrible pilot with a terrible mono b vampire deck. Major flooding and bad draws get me the 0-2. After the game he tries to give me tips on my 'elves' deck because all he saw was Nissa, advocate, and languish.
Rd 3 I draw with a ur thopter deck. Hangarback, spy network and counters ensure I'm not doing anything.
Deck felt so clunk, I loved it when it did it's thing but I'm gonna tune it and maybe splash a color for a card that would win me the game
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MTG is a hobby, cant afford it? GTFO! Don't complain about prices.
I think Finkel is doing good with this deck because he is Finkel. None of his other teammates had incredible results.
The idea is interesting and it has potential, but after this Pro Tour, I expect a lot of people to pick up this deck ad get crushed because they don't know how to pilot it perfectly.
Potentially. I'd suggest that aslong as there are Humans in the meta this deck will have legs.
But like any type of control list, it takes a control player to wrap their heads around whats going on. Looking turns ahead. I dont think its any more difficult to pilot then any other pure dedicated control lists.
I've been using Tireless Tracker in the Nissa spot. I'm in the early building stages but I do agree this deck is tuned for this meta. You will have to change the list. I think the Petition/Past package is solid. You just need to change numbers to suit your needs.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Have been testing it online. Can't lose to BG Aristocrats, easily able to navigate with Petition towards setting up a huge Kalitas into Languish position. Decks that don't go wide easily enable you to fire off some removal and just start jamming Renewals on them. I felt like Secure the Waste has been the one card that I've lost to thus far, but otherwise think the deck is great. Would kill for a Bile Blight over Grasp of Darkness.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Keep in mind a lot of a deck's performance can be attributed to the "bracket" you are in within the tournament. Control getting a draw increases your likelihood of playing the mirror over and over. Aggro taking a draw round 1 increases the chances of you getting matched against control (best match up) all day long.
There are many factors but I don't think this deck is actually good outside the pro tour. Most of the pros thought blue control decks are bad. This deck folds to any counterspells. You think you can take this to SCG Open or a GP and think you aren't going to run into blue representing some portion of the field? Not likely. Even less likely after this deck hits the meta.
I'm not sure it quite qualifies as a 'lock', unless I misunderstand the term, since your opponent can still (try to) do stuff, but the idea is, when you're ready, you Petition for Seasons Past, then (perhaps the next turn, mana depending) cast Seasons Past, returning, among other things, the Dark Petition to your hand, while Seasons Past, according to its text, goes back into your library. You can then Petition for it again on a subsequent turn, and keep this chain going turn after turn, with all the cards of other CMCs returning to your hand from the graveyard with Seasons Past being the by-product.
I'm not sure it quite qualifies as a 'lock', unless I misunderstand the term, since your opponent can still (try to) do stuff, but the idea is, when you're ready, you Petition for Seasons Past, then (perhaps the next turn, mana depending) cast Seasons Past, returning, among other things, the Dark Petition to your hand, while Seasons Past, according to its text, goes back into your library. You can then Petition for it again on a subsequent turn, and keep this chain going turn after turn, with all the cards of other CMCs returning to your hand from the graveyard with Seasons Past being the by-product.
The lock is a very soft lock, but once having established the loop, Dark Petition grabbing Seasons Past, you begin to have tons of life and all your lands in play with Nissa's Renewal and can begin locking creature decks out of the game by recurring Languish and Grasp of Darkness.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Keep in mind a lot of a deck's performance can be attributed to the "bracket" you are in within the tournament. Control getting a draw increases your likelihood of playing the mirror over and over. Aggro taking a draw round 1 increases the chances of you getting matched against control (best match up) all day long.
There are many factors but I don't think this deck is actually good outside the pro tour. Most of the pros thought blue control decks are bad. This deck folds to any counterspells. You think you can take this to SCG Open or a GP and think you aren't going to run into blue representing some portion of the field? Not likely. Even less likely after this deck hits the meta.
Well even blue decks wont play 10+ counterspells.
You run discard and you can pick 1-2 counterspells away, so thats not that big of an issue.
As the deck is, you clearly want to play your good matchups, if your format is made out of Esper Controll, you better not think this is the right deck, but you certainly could pack for discard (full 4 duress and full 4 transgres) and you could still rock the meta of yours.
The deck is flexible enough to adapt to a metagame, as its just "answers" and refill, so it all depends on if your answers to the trick or not.
someone can please explain to me the "lock" this deck can provide? I see the raw power of refilling your hand with seasons past and the toolbox path with dark petition, but I just can't see the lock behind all this.
Probably is just because i've dropped MTG for a while now, but i'm curious because in the next weeks I may come back to play some games.
It's not really a lock, it's more like when Sphinx's Revelation was in Standard. The game isn't over when it resolves, but you've already lost. The first one draws you into more and then you're so far ahead on life and cards that it's basically impossible to lose at that point. Dark Petition into Seasons Past is basically build your own Revelation.
Keep in mind a lot of a deck's performance can be attributed to the "bracket" you are in within the tournament. Control getting a draw increases your likelihood of playing the mirror over and over. Aggro taking a draw round 1 increases the chances of you getting matched against control (best match up) all day long.
There are many factors but I don't think this deck is actually good outside the pro tour. Most of the pros thought blue control decks are bad. This deck folds to any counterspells. You think you can take this to SCG Open or a GP and think you aren't going to run into blue representing some portion of the field? Not likely. Even less likely after this deck hits the meta.
Well even blue decks wont play 10+ counterspells.
You run discard and you can pick 1-2 counterspells away, so thats not that big of an issue.
As the deck is, you clearly want to play your good matchups, if your format is made out of Esper Controll, you better not think this is the right deck, but you certainly could pack for discard (full 4 duress and full 4 transgres) and you could still rock the meta of yours.
The deck is flexible enough to adapt to a metagame, as its just "answers" and refill, so it all depends on if your answers to the trick or not.
Thats one of few thoughtful replies in this thread. The core of the deck is solid. It can shift to meta quite easily. If Ramp comes on strong, the best answers in the format come in Black. If Human's adapts, and goes a bit bigger, again, Black can answer that with a slight shift in a few cards. If Esper Control comes on strong, there is at least one really good answer to that in Green, and a couple in Black aswell.
I see the shell of this deck being strong for some time now.
I ended up going 5-1 in the swiss for the number 1 seed. My Matches were as follows:
Round 1 BG Aristocrats 2-0
Very easy matchup (I actually think it is the best matchup). Game 2 I mulliganed to 6 and kept 3 lands 3 languish. My opponent was not very happy about that.
Round 2 Bant Company 0-2
I almost won game 2, but I sideboarded incorrectly. I should have brought in the rest of the duress, but I didn't think about them siding in counterspells (I previously didn't play standard and don't know the decks that well)
Round 3 Mirror 2-0
Game 1 I won by resolving my tutors better than him. The trick in the mirror seems to be prioritizing transgress the minds over the loop. The games will go long enough that it is more important to exile your opponents seasons/tutors. Game 2 I won the same way. I was really upset that my mirror tech was in my opening hand and it got transgressed. Hedonist's Trove will win you the mirror every time you cast it. Ideally you tutor for it. If they duress it it can be your 7 drop!
Round 4 Bant Company 2-0
I sideboarded correctly this time and crushed it. It is really important to get a duress and clear the path before looping.
Round 5 Bant Company Humans 2-1
Game 1 I was feeling pretty confident. I had a languish and on turn 3 he had nothing in play. Turn 4 he coco'd into 2 thalia's Lieutenant making them both 3/3. Then he untapped and cast 2 humans making them 5/5's I ultimate priced 1, languished away the 2 bonus humans, then died to the huge one that was left over. Games 2 and 3 I landed a kalitas and won with him.
Round 6 BW Midrange/control 2-0
I won a 35 minute game 1. Nothing special happened except for the fact that once I realized I had less than a 1% chance to lose the game I prioritized gaining an advantage in cards and life total rather than killing him since my opponent wasn't scooping. I did this because I know that game 2 was likely to go long as well and I could win with a 1-0-1. Game 2 I actually won because my opponent rallied for 7 to block and trade with my manland, then I awakened a ruinous path to kill the 5th token leaving him short on westvale abbey flipping. He tried to race but I had a 2nd ruinous path and beat down with some 4/4 lands.
TOP8: Abzan Aristocrats into ramp 2-1
I crushed game 1 and my opponent said something to the effect of "ugh I can't beat languish". Enter game 2 I see that my opponent has sided in 4 reality smashers 4 Gaea's revenge and 2 of that 7/7 hexproof trample for 8 mana. He was using the scion producing enchantment and cryptolyth rites to accelerate these out. I had sideboarded incorrectly and got stomped. Game 3 I fixed my sideboarding for the new transformational deck and my opponent mulliganed to 4.
TOP4 Bant company 2-0
This was the guy I lost to in the swiss. I won an 80 minute game 1. I don't remember anything, sorry. Game 2 was a bit faster, I also don't remember much except one major play was that I cast Infinite obliteration, my opponent said ok, and I named Bounding Krasis, because I had seen one in his hadn when I duressed away his coco earlier. My opponent then said in response I'll cast a bounding krasis, and I said you can't my spell is resolving. I ended up hitting 3 Bounding krasis out of his hand.
TOP2 Bant Company 1-2
I lost game 1. I think winning game 1 vs bant company is very important. They have no counterspells this game, so it should be much easier than winning post board. I won game 2, where my opponent mulliganned to 4, but then according to the bystander after the game "drew every single card in the perfect order". It was a close game, but 3 cards is a lot, even if your deck is in the perfect order. Game 3 I got read the bones flooded and didn't have enough interaction. I had a nissa's renewal, but I would have died after casting it by 1 life.
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Duress
4 Transgress the Mind
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ultimate Price
3 Ruinous Path
3 Read the Bones
3 Languish
4 Dark Petition
2 Seasons Past
3 Nissa's Renewal
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Evolving Wilds
7 Swamp
5 Forest
1 Blighted Fen
This is what I came up with, but I'm afraid that I'm just not thinking of random one ofs that could possibly be in the deck.
I'm looking at a sideboard like this:
1 Infinite Obliteration
3 Dead Weight
1 Languish
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Duress
1 Languish
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Deathbringer Regent
2 Natural State
1 Seasons Past
1 Pulse of Murasa
Esper Control
I've been testing Saffron's list for a few hours and it's strong but can run out of gas if you draw too much 1-for-1 removal or whiff on discard spells before you can comfortably start looping Seasons. I don't think Transgress the Mind is good in this metagame against all the WW decks, I'd rather be running Thought-Knot Seer in the main deck for disruption plus beats if ramp makes a comeback. I can't wait to see what Finkel's actual card counts are though, I'm sure it's tuned way better.
I love that there are three flavors of B/G making waves right now (Dark Past, Aristocrats, Gitrog Rock), I sold my Jaces and dropped Esper Dragons because I think the dragons package has seen its best days already. Looks like I bought into the right colors for this standard!
Esper Control
I mean, the core of the deck is bang on. The pro's are pro's for a reason though. My Alms/trisk win con is obviously loose. But when I posted this I wanted a discussion, suggestions, criticism. I'm just happy its got some views and some people talking.
I think the core of the deck, those 26-32 cards are pretty solid and makes a pretty fun competitive deck.
If thats the type of game ya like to play obviously. Myself, I've never sleeved up a mono-red. This is my type of durdle. Love troll decks heh
Funny though that your Transgress whiffed but then you lost to an Eerie interlude.
If it hit his Eerie, totally different game right? So take it on the chin and get back on that horse.
Grasp, Ultimate price make it so a Languish or die isn't entirely correct.
Dark Petition and Season's Past dont impact the board directly, but Petition gets you that board sweeper, or 7 life and three lands, Past gets you those 5 cards that previously impacted the board, back in hand, to impact the board again.
Finkel is now 12-1 with a deck full of cards that cost too much and dont impact the board.
Deck 'went off' twice in three matches and even when I was doing everything, I wasn't really closing the game out.
Rd 1 against rb dragons, game two I lose to a top deck DL, game three I just have no gas after he takes away key pieces of my hand.
Rd 2 I lose to this terrible pilot with a terrible mono b vampire deck. Major flooding and bad draws get me the 0-2. After the game he tries to give me tips on my 'elves' deck because all he saw was Nissa, advocate, and languish.
Rd 3 I draw with a ur thopter deck. Hangarback, spy network and counters ensure I'm not doing anything.
Deck felt so clunk, I loved it when it did it's thing but I'm gonna tune it and maybe splash a color for a card that would win me the game
4 dark petition
1 infinite obliteration
2 transgress the mind
2 duress
3 ruinous path
1 dead weight
4 grasp of darkness
2 ultimate price
4 read the bones
2 kalitas, traitor of ghet
4 languish
1 nissa's renewal
2 nissa, vastwood seer
3 evolving wilds
2 llanowar wastes
4 hissing quagmire
12 swamp
5 forest
Esper draw go Control!
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Potentially. I'd suggest that aslong as there are Humans in the meta this deck will have legs.
But like any type of control list, it takes a control player to wrap their heads around whats going on. Looking turns ahead. I dont think its any more difficult to pilot then any other pure dedicated control lists.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
There are many factors but I don't think this deck is actually good outside the pro tour. Most of the pros thought blue control decks are bad. This deck folds to any counterspells. You think you can take this to SCG Open or a GP and think you aren't going to run into blue representing some portion of the field? Not likely. Even less likely after this deck hits the meta.
Deck is business.
The games I won were thanks to the back of Tireless Trackers, but man that deck is brutal.
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Well even blue decks wont play 10+ counterspells.
You run discard and you can pick 1-2 counterspells away, so thats not that big of an issue.
As the deck is, you clearly want to play your good matchups, if your format is made out of Esper Controll, you better not think this is the right deck, but you certainly could pack for discard (full 4 duress and full 4 transgres) and you could still rock the meta of yours.
The deck is flexible enough to adapt to a metagame, as its just "answers" and refill, so it all depends on if your answers to the trick or not.
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Thats one of few thoughtful replies in this thread. The core of the deck is solid. It can shift to meta quite easily. If Ramp comes on strong, the best answers in the format come in Black. If Human's adapts, and goes a bit bigger, again, Black can answer that with a slight shift in a few cards. If Esper Control comes on strong, there is at least one really good answer to that in Green, and a couple in Black aswell.
I see the shell of this deck being strong for some time now.
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I just got 2nd at a approximately 70 person PPTQ/1k yesterday with this deck. Here is my list:
2 Duress
1 Dead weight
2 Transgress the Mind
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ultimate Price
1 Infinite Obliteration
3 Ruinous Path
4 Read the Bones
4 Languish
4 Dark Petition
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Seasons Past
1 Nissa's Renewal
2 Nissa, the vastwood seer
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Lands:
3 Evolving Wilds
2 LLanowar wastes
4 Hissing Quagmire
12 Swamps
5 Forests
3 Flaying Tendrils
2 Naturalize
2 Duress
1 Dead Weight
1 Grasp of Darkness
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Infinite Obliteration
1 Hedonist's Trove
1 Clip Wings
1 Virulent plague
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Round 1 BG Aristocrats 2-0
Very easy matchup (I actually think it is the best matchup). Game 2 I mulliganed to 6 and kept 3 lands 3 languish. My opponent was not very happy about that.
Round 2 Bant Company 0-2
I almost won game 2, but I sideboarded incorrectly. I should have brought in the rest of the duress, but I didn't think about them siding in counterspells (I previously didn't play standard and don't know the decks that well)
Round 3 Mirror 2-0
Game 1 I won by resolving my tutors better than him. The trick in the mirror seems to be prioritizing transgress the minds over the loop. The games will go long enough that it is more important to exile your opponents seasons/tutors. Game 2 I won the same way. I was really upset that my mirror tech was in my opening hand and it got transgressed. Hedonist's Trove will win you the mirror every time you cast it. Ideally you tutor for it. If they duress it it can be your 7 drop!
Round 4 Bant Company 2-0
I sideboarded correctly this time and crushed it. It is really important to get a duress and clear the path before looping.
Round 5 Bant Company Humans 2-1
Game 1 I was feeling pretty confident. I had a languish and on turn 3 he had nothing in play. Turn 4 he coco'd into 2 thalia's Lieutenant making them both 3/3. Then he untapped and cast 2 humans making them 5/5's I ultimate priced 1, languished away the 2 bonus humans, then died to the huge one that was left over. Games 2 and 3 I landed a kalitas and won with him.
Round 6 BW Midrange/control 2-0
I won a 35 minute game 1. Nothing special happened except for the fact that once I realized I had less than a 1% chance to lose the game I prioritized gaining an advantage in cards and life total rather than killing him since my opponent wasn't scooping. I did this because I know that game 2 was likely to go long as well and I could win with a 1-0-1. Game 2 I actually won because my opponent rallied for 7 to block and trade with my manland, then I awakened a ruinous path to kill the 5th token leaving him short on westvale abbey flipping. He tried to race but I had a 2nd ruinous path and beat down with some 4/4 lands.
TOP8: Abzan Aristocrats into ramp 2-1
I crushed game 1 and my opponent said something to the effect of "ugh I can't beat languish". Enter game 2 I see that my opponent has sided in 4 reality smashers 4 Gaea's revenge and 2 of that 7/7 hexproof trample for 8 mana. He was using the scion producing enchantment and cryptolyth rites to accelerate these out. I had sideboarded incorrectly and got stomped. Game 3 I fixed my sideboarding for the new transformational deck and my opponent mulliganed to 4.
TOP4 Bant company 2-0
This was the guy I lost to in the swiss. I won an 80 minute game 1. I don't remember anything, sorry. Game 2 was a bit faster, I also don't remember much except one major play was that I cast Infinite obliteration, my opponent said ok, and I named Bounding Krasis, because I had seen one in his hadn when I duressed away his coco earlier. My opponent then said in response I'll cast a bounding krasis, and I said you can't my spell is resolving. I ended up hitting 3 Bounding krasis out of his hand.
TOP2 Bant Company 1-2
I lost game 1. I think winning game 1 vs bant company is very important. They have no counterspells this game, so it should be much easier than winning post board. I won game 2, where my opponent mulliganned to 4, but then according to the bystander after the game "drew every single card in the perfect order". It was a close game, but 3 cards is a lot, even if your deck is in the perfect order. Game 3 I got read the bones flooded and didn't have enough interaction. I had a nissa's renewal, but I would have died after casting it by 1 life.
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Commander: Karador
Pauper: Ub Reanimator
Legacy: Young Frankenstein/Dredge/The Spanish Inquisition
Casual: 5Color Zendikar Combo
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