This list was build to roll over Humans. It doesn't do anything else but get a bye on human lists. I'm talking bant, G/W, Mono-white. This isn't just a good or favorable match up, its a bye. Its boring, its janky, its liked trolling your opponent. It can be better too, but I'm sharing it now to start a discussion, get some feedback, criticism, ect.
See this junk listed below? Garbage right? Doesn't do anything. Nope. It doesn't. It kills stuff one for one, it gets some tempo plays with Languish, some minor card advantage with Read the Bones. But then you draw Dark Petition.
You see whats on board, whats in your hand, and whats already in your graveyard. Do you go get Seasons Past now? Do you go and get a Behold the Beyond?
This deck wins by casting Alms of the Vein each turn. Thats the end goal. You do this by casting Seasons Past with a Alms of the Vein in the yard, you have to grab a Dark Petition too obviously as Seasons Past gets put back into your library. But you can grab more targeted removal, you can gain 6-9 life per turn if you need to, you can grab a sweeper or more hand disruption. What ever you need. But Seasons Past for Dark Petition, Alms and what ever else you need. Then, Dark Petition for Seasons Past, use the three floating for Alms, use what ever else is in hand and mana available to deal with any threats, cards in hand, ect. Next turn, do it all over again. Seasons Past for Petition, Alms and what ever else you need.
If you have some time and your not under a great amount of preassure you can Seasons Past for an Evolving Wilds, Pulse, Nissa's Renewal, ect..Build up some serious mana while also dealing with their one-two threats. Then when your ready, and 15-20 mana on board, then start Pasting for Alms.
Early turns 1-5
-One for one removal, sweep the board if you need to. Dont hesitate using Hissing Quagmire to chump either. You'll get him back.
Mid turns 6-10
-Once you find your first Dark Petition you typically want to get a Behold the Beyond. Its really going to depend one whats in your hand and whats in the graveyard already. Of course, seeing whats going on the field too. But with Behold the Beyond you're going to discard your hand, so if you have to "lose" as removal spell or whatever, not a big deal. With Behold the Beyond grab three cards. Seasons Past, Nissa's Renewal and Pulse are usually the three I grab. But it really does vary.
Long game Turns 10+
-Your keeping the board clear with targeted removal, Ruinous path for PW's, and if they attempt to keep a hand of threats to go all in, then tear away at it with Duress/Rot/Transgress.
-Each Turn your basically dumping your hand, casting Seasons Past, getting back what ever you need. Your graveyard is your new library and Seasons Past is a 6cmc pick 1-7 cards from your "deck"
-Cast Alms and attack with Hissing each turn. 3-6 points of dmg and 3-9 life gained each turn.
Its an insurmountable amount of card advantage once you get going. Humans cannot keep up. The ONLY list that has a chance is Bant that runs Negate and Stratus Dancer. However they usually run only two of each. So time your Duress's and Grasps appropriately.
I fully expect to get alot of eye rolls. But, try it before you do that. If your local meta is overrun by humans right now, sleeve this POS up and go test it yourself. I've tested it against Mono-white (small), Mono-white (big, angels/ect) Bant CC, W/G, and I'm 37-4 in matches.
This list obviously folds against control, but I haven't crossed that bridge yet. There is a TON of empty slots in my SB to look at that match up. The core of the deck is good against Esper control but lacks a win con. The core of the deck is okay against a pact list, but again, no way to win. B/W you've got a good match up aswell but a EOT Secure into Gideon/Abby will wreck ya, so gotta look at that match up too.
So to be clear, this list has been tested ONLY against Human lists. This list is going to struggle against everything else with its current configuration. I have yet to look at any other match up, but I will and I'm open to suggestions/feedback/criticism.
Hey, thanks for posting this. I'm looking forward to testing this online. Do you think Gaea's Revenge could be your finisher for your control matchups? I'm interested to hear the results of any further testing and/or play.
Also of note, I've added one Flaying Tendrils and one Grip of Desolation to the main, taking out Pulse and one Alms. So often being at 10+ mana, having a card like Grip that can slow them down, deal with man lands, Abby, and Exile a creature at instant speed has really helped. Getting it back each turn is awesome too. With it at 6cmc the only thing else in the yard competing is Nissa's Renewal, sometimes you just dont need the life/lands and its nice to have something else to do.
Flaying has been nice to use as a tutor card. When you have three mana to spend, I wanna have a couple bullets in there. Its been nice, not great, but nice, against aggressive strategies. Typically you gotta wait till turn 6 to tutor up Languish, but a turn before you can typcially take out a threat, or two with it. Helps to stabilize a bit at times.
Elusive Tormentor could be good as a finisher, especially if it's only in the board. Once you get the "lock" going you have plenty of discard fuel, so he dodges everything but Languish, and there's no way they keep that in against you after game one.
And if you run him main you could just wait until you've discarded all of their Langush before putting him out.
Brain in a Jar can start casting Duress but it really shines when we are going to cast Dark Petition with spell mastery for one mana finding Seasons Past which is probably castable right then and there or on the next turn for 1 mana again. Magical Christmas Fairy land yes, but things like instant speed Mind Rot. Languish and [card]Ruinous Path[card] are nothing to scoff at and are very attainable. Too situational to be a centerpiece, strong enough to warrant a copy or two in the main.
Card explanations Call the Bloodline: provides us with a steady stream of blockers which also buffs are life total in the early game. Serves as primary discard outlet late game for FUTF. Sinister Concoction: backup discard outlet and unconditional removal Kozilek, the Great Distortion: the game goes long and Kozilek can help us close it out. With his build in counterspell ability we can simply counter all our opponents will try to remove him. He adds another form of inevitability in that he is exceedingly hard to remove. Mage-Ring Network helps to cast him and the earlier mentioned trick with Dark Petition on Brain in a Jar provides a bit of ramp for this too. Mirrorpool: doubling up on discard is good sometimes, doubling up on removal seems good too.
Sideboard:
The spells in the sideboard are there to straight up swap with the other spells to improve your control package versus a specific deck. The creatures on the other hand are used when the deck needs to play the role of aggressor or as an answer to games that become hard to win after sideboard (control for instance). Your deck was mostly creatureless so you can bank on your opponent removing most of his creature removal suite. Capitalize on this by siding in the executioners and kalitas to overload his now meager removal suite. Naturalize is there to deal with Virulent Plague if you don't want to switch to the creature package, for instance against vampire aggro who might side it in.
I added a single triskaidekaphobia as a secondary (primary) wincon. Once things get going its surprisingly easy to get control over 13 life. I mean, one or two Alms and Trisk, its a wrap. Love the rage in chat I get. Try-hard, Deck sucks, ect ect. Still winning against just about any min-range/aggro list. Came across a pretty nasty Jund list that beat me up pretty bad. Duress into Transgress flashed back with several Dark-Dwellers, was a beating.
I'm sleeving this up for FNM, I will post how it goes next week. I think I have to many 3CMC so I may make adjustments to get a better spread. Maybe some kind of ramp in addition to the renewal.
Srry, one Alms. I like having the one Alms tbh. I mean, its a bad card inself. Never wanting more that one in hand. But I always wanted just one in the yard. When casting Petition for Seasons past and then casting Alms with the BBB each turn. And again, with Triskaidekaphobia in play, you really only need to cast a couple Alms to get em where you need em to be.
Why so Many Duress? I've been playing with the deck and think so far that is this meta the creatures are what its all about and that maybe something like that should go down to 2 and 2 in the board for and more walker heavy matchups. Also plz respond to the questions in the forum really love the deck but have found that some tuning is needed and would love to hear you opinion.
Duress is a good card against control matchups, which we would have a problem against anyway. You want to be able to pick out their counterspells, because if they counter either Seasons past or Dark petition, we're kinda screwed. Transgress the mind should also be pretty good against decks like Ramp. Being able to pick out an Ulamog or Worldbreaker before they cast it would be great. Still, this is pretty meta dependant. If you expect to see a lot of Ramp and Control, swap some of your removal for Duress effects. Otherwise, you'll mostly run into creature based decks, so you can keep them in your sideboard to swap in when you needed.
I think I understand the philosophy behind Revealing Wind, but wouldn't it simply be better to recur your removal to be rid of the creatures? Also, 3 mana slot seems to be quite important for recurring since there you also have Alms of the Vein which performs kind of the same while also killing them.
The blue splash seems a bit.... uninspired. If you're going for a sultai toolbox approach with Weirding Wood, why not include Bring to Light? If you can get it to search targets for five it can dig up Dark Petition which can get you anything you want, resulting in an even more powerful toolbox. Then if you're going that route, perhaps change out Descend upon the Sinful to Planar Outburst in your sideboard.
I think I understand the philosophy behind Revealing Wind, but wouldn't it simply be better to recur your removal to be rid of the creatures? Also, 3 mana slot seems to be quite important for recurring since there you also have Alms of the Vein which performs kind of the same while also killing them.
The blue splash seems a bit.... uninspired. If you're going for a sultai toolbox approach with Weirding Wood, why not include Bring to Light? If you can get it to search targets for five it can dig up Dark Petition which can get you anything you want, resulting in an even more powerful toolbox. Then if you're going that route, perhaps change out Descend upon the Sinful to Planar Outburst in your sideboard.
Can't say my answers are going to be too good, but I can at least explain my reasoning.
TL;DR I built my deck around the idea of having a ton of mana open on my opponent's turn.
Warped landscape to get more sources of <> for Mirrorpool. Evolving wilds is another good choice, but I figured I'd have the mana to spare. Death wind for versatile instant speed removal. Not as efficient as Grasp of darkness, but able to hit bigger things while being less color intensive. Scour from existence is exactly to hit everything my other spells can't. Hits planeswalkers, lands, enchantments, creatures, or artifacts at instant speed. Magnifying glass to ramp up and pump out card advantage. It's a bit of a pet card, but I think it's underrated. Revealing wind because some decks just fold to turbofog faster than they would to recurring removal. Plus there are enough threats with flash like Avacyn and CoCo that can get that crucial extra damage in. I want insurance. I really wish there was a better Fog right now, but there isn't.
It seemed easy to splash blue for a simple counterspell like Clash of wills. It seemed really hard to splash five colors for Bring to light when WUBRG mode is basically the same as Dark petition.
Your probably right on the Duress. For me personally, Information. I found that playing this type of deck information is key. Having a hand full of removal and one Dark Petition, without knowing whats in your opponents hand what do you get? Do you roll the dice and get Beyond, or Season's Past? Also, Gideon, Always watching (again just talking about aggro/human match ups here) Negate's, Collected Company.
So I'd say play what your comfortable playing. I dont mind having a 'dead card' in hand. The information I get for that one black mana is worth it to me. Allows me to plan ahead several turns which is really important with this list IMO. We are control, and not just blindly dumping our hand on to the field like Humans.
Tuning. Definitely. Thats why I posted it early on in its development. Have already made changes, and others have made some really good suggestions.
Death wind is just bad I think. To be honest. Early game you want cheap interaction. Kinda the unspoken rule of magic right? Cheap spells. If your staring at a 4/5 creature and a 3/4 creature with a Ultimate price in hand and either a Death Wind or a Grasp in Darkness, which would you rather have? Late game, anything you would want to Death's Wind you could just Grip, or Price/Path to be fair.
I cant in any scenario imagine wanting a Death Wind over a Price/Grasp early game, or a Ruinous Path/Languish mid game, or a Grasp late game.
I've really wanted to try and get a Pick the Brain in there. But I think its only good with Delirium. If you can reliably hit Delirium, its probably going to be very good for you. In the list I'm currently testing, I couldn't ever hit it. Infinite Obliteration is probably better for those that cant get delirium, those that can, Pick the Brain for sure.
PLease understand that I'm not trying to criticize you for your choices but just want to discuss:
In my build I use Mage-ring network and Westvale Abbey for possible activations of the MIrrorpool. I think Mirrorpool is playable here for the same reason as Abbey is: low investment, high possible reward. There is no risk if you're not playing other cards to activate it and still be able to use it. When you start adding cards you're diluting your plan A and B for your deck with what essentially is a plan C.
I understand that Magnifying Glassp is a pet card, but what are you going to ramp into? Can you afford to skip interaction on turn three? Is it more efficient than a ramp spell if you're going to ramp towards five for Dark Petition? The answer is no. Aggro will just wreck you if you do this. Weirding Wood is also already a risky option here but fixes your colors and draws you a card so the investment is quite a bit lower.
I agree, information is key for this deck. It's a shame that Despise is gone right now or it would've made for a nice split with Duress. I understand you are fine with a dead card in hand, but what about two?
I'm really wondering how good Pick the Brain actually is. Limiting it to a card you find in your opponents hand can create a hefty whiff scenario versus ramp. Sure, they don't have it in hand right now, but might draw it soon enough. I will test a copy in the sideboard of my build since I feel that I'm going to be able to hit delirium quite reliably between Sinister Concoction and Call the Bloodline.
Other cards that can be considered: Greenwarden of Murasa and Den Protector: two excellent recursion cards that are both legitimate threats in their own right. They do however dilute the strongest point the deck has at the moment: creaturelessness. Vessel of Malignity: in the same vein as the suggestion of Witness the End, this can exile two cards but this one can slip under the counterwall of control decks and allows for interaction in the midgame while you drop this. Self-Inflicted Wound: excellent in the big white matchup, not so much anywhere else. Curse you devoid, otherwise we couldve used this on world breakers and such. Ob Nixilis, Reignited: seems like a decent to strong addition to the deck, providing recurring removal, card draw and a win condition From Beyond: can be combined with fat eldrazi finisher, but the steady stream of tokens can also act as a buffer for damage, ramp and again a wincon.
PLease understand that I'm not trying to criticize you for your choices but just want to discuss:
In my build I use Mage-ring network and Westvale Abbey for possible activations of the MIrrorpool. I think Mirrorpool is playable here for the same reason as Abbey is: low investment, high possible reward. There is no risk if you're not playing other cards to activate it and still be able to use it. When you start adding cards you're diluting your plan A and B for your deck with what essentially is a plan C.
I understand that Magnifying Glassp is a pet card, but what are you going to ramp into? Can you afford to skip interaction on turn three? Is it more efficient than a ramp spell if you're going to ramp towards five for Dark Petition? The answer is no. Aggro will just wreck you if you do this. Weirding Wood is also already a risky option here but fixes your colors and draws you a card so the investment is quite a bit lower.
I agree, information is key for this deck. It's a shame that Despise is gone right now or it would've made for a nice split with Duress. I understand you are fine with a dead card in hand, but what about two?
I'm really wondering how good Pick the Brain actually is. Limiting it to a card you find in your opponents hand can create a hefty whiff scenario versus ramp. Sure, they don't have it in hand right now, but might draw it soon enough. I will test a copy in the sideboard of my build since I feel that I'm going to be able to hit delirium quite reliably between Sinister Concoction and Call the Bloodline.
Other cards that can be considered: Greenwarden of Murasa and Den Protector: two excellent recursion cards that are both legitimate threats in their own right. They do however dilute the strongest point the deck has at the moment: creaturelessness. Vessel of Malignity: in the same vein as the suggestion of Witness the End, this can exile two cards but this one can slip under the counterwall of control decks and allows for interaction in the midgame while you drop this. Self-Inflicted Wound: excellent in the big white matchup, not so much anywhere else. Curse you devoid, otherwise we couldve used this on world breakers and such. Ob Nixilis, Reignited: seems like a decent to strong addition to the deck, providing recurring removal, card draw and a win condition From Beyond: can be combined with fat eldrazi finisher, but the steady stream of tokens can also act as a buffer for damage, ramp and again a wincon.
Fair points on Duress. If I have two in hand then I'm just going to throw one in the bin after a Seasons past for 6 anyhow. Early game that info dictates what I'm going to do the following turn/s. Midgame they can hopefully grab a Gideon/Always watching/Collected Company/ect. Late game, like I said I'll just bin the extra's and use one when needed.
Greenwarden/Den protector your right on both points. Good threats, but kinda go against what I was trying to do. With either of those cards we'd be better off just going into a Rock mid-ranged strategy with Frogs/ect.
I think there are a ton of cards that could work, you've suggested some, others have aswell. I think there is a certain amount of value in having no ways for your opponent to interact. Their removal is dead, Declaration in Stone, Stasis snare, ect ect. Again just speak of humans here. But even against the mid-range strategies that are packing 8-12 removal spells. I want those cards in hand just rotting away. If you throw in an Ob Nix, all of a sudden those Paths are live, thos Tempers are live, ect.
I think there is value there. You get that sinking feeling when a 1/5th of your deck is dead, when your entire sideboard is dead. Nobody has graveyard hate (is there even such a think in T2)
i just ordered some missing pieces to get this deck online, after having tested it a bit i was very impressed by the how the deck performed, and it's cost. i made a couple alterations to the orginal list, but ultimately am much fonder of the orginal direction than the one that utilizes from under the floorboards. here is my take:
The main difference lies in my choice to mb gaea's revenge, a choice i made because i worry about going to time often, and from what i've seen, although obviously a card for the control mu, it works well as a finisher vs aggro, once board dominance is obtained, it dodges almost all standard removal especially the types any noncontrol deck would play. also i agree wholeheartedly with the op's choice to drop to one alms of the vein, i never wanted to see two and never had any problem getting it after i dropped it to one. besides that i like grasp of darkness more than ultimate price and, while far from ideal, i like the ability to stack them vs things niether price nor grasp can kill alone. because of a slightly diminshed ability to kill X/5+ i decided to bump ruinous path to 4, which i think might also be necessary vs pw heavy decks, and i like how it offers the deck another, although bad, way to close the game.
my sb is still very loose, i know i want at least 1X virulent plague and a second seasons past for anything running discard, i'll probably end up with infinite obliteration as a one of, besides those we have various narrow removal spells, extra numbers of mb cards. kalitas seems good, but i have my reservations, anyone have any feelings on him, and which match ups (more specifically than aggro) that he really shines vs? also while i don't play from under the floorboards i enjoy the idea of risen executioner as beat stick vs control out of the board, once they have sbed all their exile removal, he can also help diversify the win con package so well timed discard doesn't hose us.
i just ordered some missing pieces to get this deck online, after having tested it a bit i was very impressed by the how the deck performed, and it's cost. i made a couple alterations to the orginal list, but ultimately am much fonder of the orginal direction than the one that utilizes from under the floorboards. here is my take:
The main difference lies in my choice to mb gaea's revenge, a choice i made because i worry about going to time often, and from what i've seen, although obviously a card for the control mu, it works well as a finisher vs aggro, once board dominance is obtained, it dodges almost all standard removal especially the types any noncontrol deck would play. also i agree wholeheartedly with the op's choice to drop to one alms of the vein, i never wanted to see two and never had any problem getting it after i dropped it to one. besides that i like grasp of darkness more than ultimate price and, while far from ideal, i like the ability to stack them vs things niether price nor grasp can kill alone. because of a slightly diminshed ability to kill X/5+ i decided to bump ruinous path to 4, which i think might also be necessary vs pw heavy decks, and i like how it offers the deck another, although bad, way to close the game.
my sb is still very loose, i know i want at least 1X virulent plague and a second seasons past for anything running discard, i'll probably end up with infinite obliteration as a one of, besides those we have various narrow removal spells, extra numbers of mb cards. kalitas seems good, but i have my reservations, anyone have any feelings on him, and which match ups (more specifically than aggro) that he really shines vs? also while i don't play from under the floorboards i enjoy the idea of risen executioner as beat stick vs control out of the board, once they have sbed all their exile removal, he can also help diversify the win con package so well timed discard doesn't hose us.
Glad to hear you threw it together man. It has legs. I actually like your Gaea's Revenge main. Alot. Have you tried Trisk yet?
As for sideboard, I'm assuming Infinite is for ramp? If thats the case I'd just use that 5/3 Haste dude...totally forget his name atm. Him with Gaea's could end a game quickly.
There would be very few creatures I'd be interested in running tbh. I dont wanna turn on my opponents hand. Things like Kalitas, he is good. But if your running up against a monowhite, white eldrazi 3-8 removal spells all that hit Kalitas. If your playing against B/W or any number of the Jund/Rock/Ect mid-range lists, 8-13 removal spells. Most of which hit Kalitas. I dont like Kalitas in this type of list. Personally I've always felt him to be a bit over rated but what do I know.
Remember with playing a full set of Petitions you can toolbox your SB in a big way. Which is a huge benefit right now in this early meta.
Pro Tour Madrid. We'll see how many ppl have a look in this thread now lol. At least three pros playing a Dark Past list. Seasons Past is up 334% online. Dark Petition is up 220%
Pro Tour Madrid. We'll see how many ppl have a look in this thread now lol. At least three pros playing a Dark Past list. Seasons Past is up 334% online. Dark Petition is up 220%
For real. I was already planning on picking this deck up as a cheap one to play the days I can make it to FNM, and of course I waited until today to purchase. $100.08 total to get the deck, which still isn't bad for T2, but I do feel pissed that I didn't save a TON of money earlier.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Contrary to popular opinion, I don't do anything for the fun of it.
Ya tell me about it. I'm a total budget online player. Which is why I built this deck. I ended up selling everything a couple days ago as I thought it ran its course.
Pro Tours are usually inbred formats. It doesn't always translate into a deck being good for the FNM-GP field.
The players on this deck are very high caliber. That alone can carry a deck. Zuliport Cutthroat is probably the better version of G/B.
except the cutthroat version should gets *snip* in the BG season vs GB cutthroat match. Kalitas is the 100% counter to the cutthroat deck and having atleast 3x maindeck with 4x more tutors for it makes it significantly ahead in the match..
LSV beat finkel I know but finkel got flooded game 1 drawing nothing but lands then game 2 kept a 2 land nissa hand and didn't see a 3rd land till turn 5. So that didn't show anything and finkel went 3-0 after losing to LSV. If Finkel makes top 8 this deck will win the PT it beats WW it beats bant and it should be atleast 60-40 vs GB cutthroat.
Please do not use sexual assaults as a metaphor for deck matchups. Thanks! -- Lugger
See this junk listed below? Garbage right? Doesn't do anything. Nope. It doesn't. It kills stuff one for one, it gets some tempo plays with Languish, some minor card advantage with Read the Bones. But then you draw Dark Petition.
You see whats on board, whats in your hand, and whats already in your graveyard. Do you go get Seasons Past now? Do you go and get a Behold the Beyond?
This deck wins by casting Alms of the Vein each turn. Thats the end goal. You do this by casting Seasons Past with a Alms of the Vein in the yard, you have to grab a Dark Petition too obviously as Seasons Past gets put back into your library. But you can grab more targeted removal, you can gain 6-9 life per turn if you need to, you can grab a sweeper or more hand disruption. What ever you need. But Seasons Past for Dark Petition, Alms and what ever else you need. Then, Dark Petition for Seasons Past, use the three floating for Alms, use what ever else is in hand and mana available to deal with any threats, cards in hand, ect. Next turn, do it all over again. Seasons Past for Petition, Alms and what ever else you need.
If you have some time and your not under a great amount of preassure you can Seasons Past for an Evolving Wilds, Pulse, Nissa's Renewal, ect..Build up some serious mana while also dealing with their one-two threats. Then when your ready, and 15-20 mana on board, then start Pasting for Alms.
Early turns 1-5
-One for one removal, sweep the board if you need to. Dont hesitate using Hissing Quagmire to chump either. You'll get him back.
Mid turns 6-10
-Once you find your first Dark Petition you typically want to get a Behold the Beyond. Its really going to depend one whats in your hand and whats in the graveyard already. Of course, seeing whats going on the field too. But with Behold the Beyond you're going to discard your hand, so if you have to "lose" as removal spell or whatever, not a big deal. With Behold the Beyond grab three cards. Seasons Past, Nissa's Renewal and Pulse are usually the three I grab. But it really does vary.
Long game Turns 10+
-Your keeping the board clear with targeted removal, Ruinous path for PW's, and if they attempt to keep a hand of threats to go all in, then tear away at it with Duress/Rot/Transgress.
-Each Turn your basically dumping your hand, casting Seasons Past, getting back what ever you need. Your graveyard is your new library and Seasons Past is a 6cmc pick 1-7 cards from your "deck"
-Cast Alms and attack with Hissing each turn. 3-6 points of dmg and 3-9 life gained each turn.
Its an insurmountable amount of card advantage once you get going. Humans cannot keep up. The ONLY list that has a chance is Bant that runs Negate and Stratus Dancer. However they usually run only two of each. So time your Duress's and Grasps appropriately.
I fully expect to get alot of eye rolls. But, try it before you do that. If your local meta is overrun by humans right now, sleeve this POS up and go test it yourself. I've tested it against Mono-white (small), Mono-white (big, angels/ect) Bant CC, W/G, and I'm 37-4 in matches.
4x Transgress the Mind
3x Ultimate Price
3x Grasp of Darkness
3x Alms of the Vein
1x Mind Rot
3x Read the Bones
3x Ruinous Path
1x Pulse of Murasa
3x Languish
4x Dark Petition
1x Nissa's Renewal
1x Seasons Past
1x Behold the Beyond
25x Lands
This list obviously folds against control, but I haven't crossed that bridge yet. There is a TON of empty slots in my SB to look at that match up. The core of the deck is good against Esper control but lacks a win con. The core of the deck is okay against a pact list, but again, no way to win. B/W you've got a good match up aswell but a EOT Secure into Gideon/Abby will wreck ya, so gotta look at that match up too.
So to be clear, this list has been tested ONLY against Human lists. This list is going to struggle against everything else with its current configuration. I have yet to look at any other match up, but I will and I'm open to suggestions/feedback/criticism.
*EDITED TO ADD PRO-TOUR LIST*
4 dark petition
1 infinite obliteration
2 transgress the mind
2 duress
3 ruinous path
1 dead weight
4 grasp of darkness
2 ultimate price
4 read the bones
2 kalitas, traitor of ghet
4 languish
1 nissa's renewal
2 nissa, vastwood seer
3 evolving wilds
2 llanowar wastes
4 hissing quagmire
12 swamp
5 forest
Also of note, I've added one Flaying Tendrils and one Grip of Desolation to the main, taking out Pulse and one Alms. So often being at 10+ mana, having a card like Grip that can slow them down, deal with man lands, Abby, and Exile a creature at instant speed has really helped. Getting it back each turn is awesome too. With it at 6cmc the only thing else in the yard competing is Nissa's Renewal, sometimes you just dont need the life/lands and its nice to have something else to do.
Flaying has been nice to use as a tutor card. When you have three mana to spend, I wanna have a couple bullets in there. Its been nice, not great, but nice, against aggressive strategies. Typically you gotta wait till turn 6 to tutor up Languish, but a turn before you can typcially take out a threat, or two with it. Helps to stabilize a bit at times.
And if you run him main you could just wait until you've discarded all of their Langush before putting him out.
Brain in a Jar can start casting Duress but it really shines when we are going to cast Dark Petition with spell mastery for one mana finding Seasons Past which is probably castable right then and there or on the next turn for 1 mana again. Magical Christmas Fairy land yes, but things like instant speed Mind Rot. Languish and [card]Ruinous Path[card] are nothing to scoff at and are very attainable. Too situational to be a centerpiece, strong enough to warrant a copy or two in the main.
From under the Floorboards is like Alms of the Vein on steroids. The game is going long enough anyhow so why not play a card that scales well into the late game. Of course you need some discard outlets such as Sinister Concoction and Call the Bloodline but what is keeping you from Duressing yourself for value?
2 Duress
1 Transgress the Mind
1 Ruinous Path
1 Mind Rot
1 Flaying Tendrils
3 Read the Bones
3 Languish
4 Dark Petition
4 From under the Floorboards
2 Season's Past
Instant
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ultimate Price
1 To The Slaughter
2 Sinister Concoction
2 Call the Bloodline
Artifact
2 Brain in a Jar
Creatures
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Lands
4 Hissing Quagmire
2 Mage-Ring Network
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Mirrorpool
1 Evolving Wilds
12 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Infinite Obliteration
1 Pick the Brain
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Duress
1 To the Slaughter
2 Naturalize
1 Ruinous Path
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Risen Executioner
Card explanations
Call the Bloodline: provides us with a steady stream of blockers which also buffs are life total in the early game. Serves as primary discard outlet late game for FUTF.
Sinister Concoction: backup discard outlet and unconditional removal
Kozilek, the Great Distortion: the game goes long and Kozilek can help us close it out. With his build in counterspell ability we can simply counter all our opponents will try to remove him. He adds another form of inevitability in that he is exceedingly hard to remove. Mage-Ring Network helps to cast him and the earlier mentioned trick with Dark Petition on Brain in a Jar provides a bit of ramp for this too.
Mirrorpool: doubling up on discard is good sometimes, doubling up on removal seems good too.
Sideboard:
The spells in the sideboard are there to straight up swap with the other spells to improve your control package versus a specific deck. The creatures on the other hand are used when the deck needs to play the role of aggressor or as an answer to games that become hard to win after sideboard (control for instance). Your deck was mostly creatureless so you can bank on your opponent removing most of his creature removal suite. Capitalize on this by siding in the executioners and kalitas to overload his now meager removal suite.
Naturalize is there to deal with Virulent Plague if you don't want to switch to the creature package, for instance against vampire aggro who might side it in.
Edit: I forgot to put Kozilek in there.
Here's what I think I would run.
1x Nissa's Renewal
2x Ruinous Path
4x From Under the Floorboards
4x Dark Petition
2x Grasp of Darkness
4x Duress
1x Behold the Beyond
3x Read the Bones
2x Flaying Tendrils
2x Transgress the Mind
2x Gaea's Revenge
2x Elusive Tormentor
3x Brain in a Jar
24x Lands
I'm sleeving this up for FNM, I will post how it goes next week. I think I have to many 3CMC so I may make adjustments to get a better spread. Maybe some kind of ramp in addition to the renewal.
I like the idea of Mirrorpool. Being able to copy Dark petition seems strong, and copying Seasons past just seems bonkers.
Here's my current decklist. I feel like I'm getting a bit greedy with my manabase. Might need to work on it.
4 languish
4 Death wind
4 Ultimate price
2 Ruinous path
1 To the slaughter
1 Scour from existence
1 grip of desolation
Defense
2 Call the bloodline
1 Revealing wind
1 Pick the brain
Ramp
4 Weirding wood
1 Magnifying glass
1 Nissa's renewal
4 Dark petition
2 Seasons past
1 Clash of wills
1 Alms of the vein
1 Negate
Lands 24
8 Swamp
5 Forest
4 Hissing quagmire
4 Blighted woodland
2 Warped landscape
1 Island
1 Mirrorpool
3 Revealing wind
2 Duress
2 Transgress the mind
2 pick the brain
2 Naturalize
1 To the slaughter
1 Flaying tendrils
1 Gaea's revenge
1 Descend upon the sinful
Currently very toolbox-y. Plan is to lock them out with counterspells and/or fog.
Why Warped Landscape over Evolving Wilds? Seems like the 2 mana could be put to better use.
Why Death Wind over Complete Disregard, Dead Weight, Grasp of Darkness, or even Tar Snare? I can't image the spell being as efficient as any of those.
Why Scour from Existence over another Grip of Desolation, Naturalize orReclaiming Vines? Seems you have this card in there as a misers solution to anything your other spells can't kill.
Magnifying Glass feels a little.... bad. Perhaps Hedron Archive is better suited here?
I think I understand the philosophy behind Revealing Wind, but wouldn't it simply be better to recur your removal to be rid of the creatures? Also, 3 mana slot seems to be quite important for recurring since there you also have Alms of the Vein which performs kind of the same while also killing them.
The blue splash seems a bit.... uninspired. If you're going for a sultai toolbox approach with Weirding Wood, why not include Bring to Light? If you can get it to search targets for five it can dig up Dark Petition which can get you anything you want, resulting in an even more powerful toolbox. Then if you're going that route, perhaps change out Descend upon the Sinful to Planar Outburst in your sideboard.
Can't say my answers are going to be too good, but I can at least explain my reasoning.
TL;DR I built my deck around the idea of having a ton of mana open on my opponent's turn.
Warped landscape to get more sources of <> for Mirrorpool. Evolving wilds is another good choice, but I figured I'd have the mana to spare.
Death wind for versatile instant speed removal. Not as efficient as Grasp of darkness, but able to hit bigger things while being less color intensive.
Scour from existence is exactly to hit everything my other spells can't. Hits planeswalkers, lands, enchantments, creatures, or artifacts at instant speed.
Magnifying glass to ramp up and pump out card advantage. It's a bit of a pet card, but I think it's underrated.
Revealing wind because some decks just fold to turbofog faster than they would to recurring removal. Plus there are enough threats with flash like Avacyn and CoCo that can get that crucial extra damage in. I want insurance. I really wish there was a better Fog right now, but there isn't.
It seemed easy to splash blue for a simple counterspell like Clash of wills. It seemed really hard to splash five colors for Bring to light when WUBRG mode is basically the same as Dark petition.
So I'd say play what your comfortable playing. I dont mind having a 'dead card' in hand. The information I get for that one black mana is worth it to me. Allows me to plan ahead several turns which is really important with this list IMO. We are control, and not just blindly dumping our hand on to the field like Humans.
Tuning. Definitely. Thats why I posted it early on in its development. Have already made changes, and others have made some really good suggestions.
I cant in any scenario imagine wanting a Death Wind over a Price/Grasp early game, or a Ruinous Path/Languish mid game, or a Grasp late game.
I've really wanted to try and get a Pick the Brain in there. But I think its only good with Delirium. If you can reliably hit Delirium, its probably going to be very good for you. In the list I'm currently testing, I couldn't ever hit it. Infinite Obliteration is probably better for those that cant get delirium, those that can, Pick the Brain for sure.
In my build I use Mage-ring network and Westvale Abbey for possible activations of the MIrrorpool. I think Mirrorpool is playable here for the same reason as Abbey is: low investment, high possible reward. There is no risk if you're not playing other cards to activate it and still be able to use it. When you start adding cards you're diluting your plan A and B for your deck with what essentially is a plan C.
I understand that Magnifying Glassp is a pet card, but what are you going to ramp into? Can you afford to skip interaction on turn three? Is it more efficient than a ramp spell if you're going to ramp towards five for Dark Petition? The answer is no. Aggro will just wreck you if you do this. Weirding Wood is also already a risky option here but fixes your colors and draws you a card so the investment is quite a bit lower.
I agree, information is key for this deck. It's a shame that Despise is gone right now or it would've made for a nice split with Duress. I understand you are fine with a dead card in hand, but what about two?
I'm really wondering how good Pick the Brain actually is. Limiting it to a card you find in your opponents hand can create a hefty whiff scenario versus ramp. Sure, they don't have it in hand right now, but might draw it soon enough. I will test a copy in the sideboard of my build since I feel that I'm going to be able to hit delirium quite reliably between Sinister Concoction and Call the Bloodline.
Other cards that can be considered:
Greenwarden of Murasa and Den Protector: two excellent recursion cards that are both legitimate threats in their own right. They do however dilute the strongest point the deck has at the moment: creaturelessness.
Vessel of Malignity: in the same vein as the suggestion of Witness the End, this can exile two cards but this one can slip under the counterwall of control decks and allows for interaction in the midgame while you drop this.
Self-Inflicted Wound: excellent in the big white matchup, not so much anywhere else. Curse you devoid, otherwise we couldve used this on world breakers and such.
Ob Nixilis, Reignited: seems like a decent to strong addition to the deck, providing recurring removal, card draw and a win condition
From Beyond: can be combined with fat eldrazi finisher, but the steady stream of tokens can also act as a buffer for damage, ramp and again a wincon.
Fair points on Duress. If I have two in hand then I'm just going to throw one in the bin after a Seasons past for 6 anyhow. Early game that info dictates what I'm going to do the following turn/s. Midgame they can hopefully grab a Gideon/Always watching/Collected Company/ect. Late game, like I said I'll just bin the extra's and use one when needed.
Greenwarden/Den protector your right on both points. Good threats, but kinda go against what I was trying to do. With either of those cards we'd be better off just going into a Rock mid-ranged strategy with Frogs/ect.
I think there are a ton of cards that could work, you've suggested some, others have aswell. I think there is a certain amount of value in having no ways for your opponent to interact. Their removal is dead, Declaration in Stone, Stasis snare, ect ect. Again just speak of humans here. But even against the mid-range strategies that are packing 8-12 removal spells. I want those cards in hand just rotting away. If you throw in an Ob Nix, all of a sudden those Paths are live, thos Tempers are live, ect.
I think there is value there. You get that sinking feeling when a 1/5th of your deck is dead, when your entire sideboard is dead. Nobody has graveyard hate (is there even such a think in T2)
I dunno, just spit balling here.
4x Transgress the Mind
2x Ultimate Price
4x Grasp of Darkness
1x Alms of the Vein
1x Mind Rot
3x Read the Bones
4x Ruinous Path
1x Pulse of Murasa
3x Languish
4x Dark Petition
1x Nissa's Renewal
1x Seasons Past
1x Behold the Beyond
1x Gaea's Revenge
4x Llanowar wastes
4x Evolving Wilds
2x Blighted Fen
8x Swamp
3x Forest
The main difference lies in my choice to mb gaea's revenge, a choice i made because i worry about going to time often, and from what i've seen, although obviously a card for the control mu, it works well as a finisher vs aggro, once board dominance is obtained, it dodges almost all standard removal especially the types any noncontrol deck would play. also i agree wholeheartedly with the op's choice to drop to one alms of the vein, i never wanted to see two and never had any problem getting it after i dropped it to one. besides that i like grasp of darkness more than ultimate price and, while far from ideal, i like the ability to stack them vs things niether price nor grasp can kill alone. because of a slightly diminshed ability to kill X/5+ i decided to bump ruinous path to 4, which i think might also be necessary vs pw heavy decks, and i like how it offers the deck another, although bad, way to close the game.
my sb is still very loose, i know i want at least 1X virulent plague and a second seasons past for anything running discard, i'll probably end up with infinite obliteration as a one of, besides those we have various narrow removal spells, extra numbers of mb cards. kalitas seems good, but i have my reservations, anyone have any feelings on him, and which match ups (more specifically than aggro) that he really shines vs? also while i don't play from under the floorboards i enjoy the idea of risen executioner as beat stick vs control out of the board, once they have sbed all their exile removal, he can also help diversify the win con package so well timed discard doesn't hose us.
Glad to hear you threw it together man. It has legs. I actually like your Gaea's Revenge main. Alot. Have you tried Trisk yet?
As for sideboard, I'm assuming Infinite is for ramp? If thats the case I'd just use that 5/3 Haste dude...totally forget his name atm. Him with Gaea's could end a game quickly.
There would be very few creatures I'd be interested in running tbh. I dont wanna turn on my opponents hand. Things like Kalitas, he is good. But if your running up against a monowhite, white eldrazi 3-8 removal spells all that hit Kalitas. If your playing against B/W or any number of the Jund/Rock/Ect mid-range lists, 8-13 removal spells. Most of which hit Kalitas. I dont like Kalitas in this type of list. Personally I've always felt him to be a bit over rated but what do I know.
Remember with playing a full set of Petitions you can toolbox your SB in a big way. Which is a huge benefit right now in this early meta.
For real. I was already planning on picking this deck up as a cheap one to play the days I can make it to FNM, and of course I waited until today to purchase. $100.08 total to get the deck, which still isn't bad for T2, but I do feel pissed that I didn't save a TON of money earlier.
Go Pelakka Wurm!
The players on this deck are very high caliber. That alone can carry a deck. Zuliport Cutthroat is probably the better version of G/B.
except the cutthroat version should gets *snip* in the BG season vs GB cutthroat match. Kalitas is the 100% counter to the cutthroat deck and having atleast 3x maindeck with 4x more tutors for it makes it significantly ahead in the match..
LSV beat finkel I know but finkel got flooded game 1 drawing nothing but lands then game 2 kept a 2 land nissa hand and didn't see a 3rd land till turn 5. So that didn't show anything and finkel went 3-0 after losing to LSV. If Finkel makes top 8 this deck will win the PT it beats WW it beats bant and it should be atleast 60-40 vs GB cutthroat.
Please do not use sexual assaults as a metaphor for deck matchups. Thanks! -- Lugger