This is my take on Jund. Obviously It utilizes dragons to facilitate Foul-Tongue Invocation and Draconic roar. Definitely a more midrange gameplan, but in my testing against BW, Ramp, Eldrazi, and UW, it keeps the board empty until I'm ready to start dropping bombs. The mana base has been really consistent, and I rarely have to take any pain from the Llanowar Wastes. I plan on running a lot of Radiant Flames in the sideboard for aggro, but I really need to test against some of the new aggro decks to know for sure if it will be fast enough to keep up with them.
Really if you play Roar there's no need for impulse and if you gonna do dragons you might as well play the best one in the core which is atarka so honestly I'd cut advocate in favor of deathcap and replace the impulse for a den Protector or two another GDD and maybe another read the bones.
Cutting advocate is definitely an option. I just don't know if a 2 drop mana dork is where I want to be. Without ramp Atarka will take too long to hit the field. It may come down to a meta call whether I want atarka and the dork package or not. Currently I like having impulse available on turn one if a Jace hits the table, which he often does around here. I will definitely keep your suggestions in mind if the deck falters.
Advocate is not a dork. It is one of the many cards in our colors which we are never sad to see. Early game it is a 2/3 vigilance beater wall. Kate game it is a tarmogoyf that pumps our man lands to deadly proportions.
Another random thought. Has anyone considered Woodland Bellower at the top end? It comes into play and grabs a Sylvan Advacate who is a 4/5 at that point. The only issue I see is that Bellower isn't as good as other top of the curve cards so just bringing in another creature may not be enough. idk.
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Standard:GR Eldrazi Ramp
Modern: Mono Green Devotion
I think the issue with him and always had been the decks he slots in just don't have enough low drops to make hI'm effective. He was good in the gb pact deck for the simple fact he combo ed with the 3 drop to bounce your pact to keep you from losing.
Also he is basically just a vanilla 6/5 after that with no evasion which is not exactly what jund wants.
It's mainly the legendary clause that holds it back. As far as mr. mushroom goes, I honestly like him. Gitrog turn four or the demon on three is pretty good. Worst case he is a body to hold back and threaten trades with or chump real threats. I can definitely see a more aggro build without it though.
I'm pretty happy with the manabase. I currently have 15 R pips, 9 G pips and 26 B pips with 4 double R and 8 double B. Using Frank Karsten's formula of 4 Evolving Wilds = 3 mana sources of each color, I have 15 R sources, 12 G sources and 16 B sources. Lands will come in tapped, at some point. That's just something we have to accept when running a 3 color deck in this format. My approach is mainly focused on RB with G as the splash.
I honestly think Evolving Wilds of some number is a necessary evil with a 3 color deck, and I'm happy to run 4 Wilds since I'm running more Delirium cards than many of the lists posted in this thread.
Mindwrack Demon has been really good for me in testing. He feeds Delirium and makes Dark-Dwellers that much better. He also gives us a good answer to Planeswalkers without having to run Ruinous Path. He ignores Gideon's, Nissa's and Arlin's tokens and flies over to smack them in the face. Chandra can't kill him the turn she comes down. Sorin can come down, kill him and live at 1 loyalty, but you can't win them all.
Speaking of Delirium, it's really easy to achieve with this list. To the Slaughter almost always kills a PW at instant speed. Traverse the Ulvenwald has also been pretty good for me. In the early game it helps me fix mana untapped, if needed, and mid/late game it can find me a creature answer or a Hissing Quagmire if I need a manland. It also interacts very well with Dark-Dwellers. I've had games where we're at parity. I cast a Dark-Dwellers, flash back TtU, get another DD, next turn cast the DD, flash back Kolaghan's Command etc etc. Just your typical Jund stuff.
Moving forward, I want to have some number of Duress mainboard. Secure the Wastes is definitely a problem card, and I'd like to have a way to rip it out of the opponent's hand or force them to cast it much earlier than they'd like. I haven't built a sideboard yet. Still waiting to see how the meta shakes out at Baltimore.
I think the issue with him and always had been the decks he slots in just don't have enough low drops to make hI'm effective. He was good in the gb pact deck for the simple fact he combo ed with the 3 drop to bounce your pact to keep you from losing.
Also he is basically just a vanilla 6/5 after that with no evasion which is not exactly what jund wants.
I feel like Sylvan Advocate is a very good threat to go pick up with him or Catacomb Sifter if people are running that for the scion. That being said, I agree that a vanilla 6/5 isn't the best of the top end options that we have so I am not sure that just bringing another creature into the field is better than our other top end options.
From my understanding of JUND it is basically supposed to grind an opponent down. Please correct me if that is wrong, I am new to the deck.
I am still very much looking at 9-11 planes walkers, we have some of the best planeswalkers in standard right now available to us and I dont see why we wouldnt use them if we could. I think Deathcap Cultivator makes sense and so does sylvan Advocate, if I am playing so many planes walkers I feel like I would need Goblin Dark Dwellers to artificially increase my spells and utility I feel like Kalitas is a good top end with the removal available. Honesty the top end is the hardest part for me, Kalitas seems to make sense but how much synergy does he really have with no other vampires/zombies to sack to him aside from the things we create as we kill their things. DL Atarka is obviously strong and I have a hard time telling him he doesn't belong in a deck playing red/green. Ulvenwald Hydra is interesting to me simply because it has reach which will be relevant and it can get a land which can be a Hissing Quagmire or a Westville Abbey (I think I would make enough tokens between the walkers and Kalitas to transform Abbey). The problem with more planeswalkers is that I would have less spells and with those walkers I would want 4 oath of nissa's to smooth the mana which only leaves 6ish spots for other spells. Anyway, I apologize, I am just spitballing here, nothing formal, I haven't started play testing yet. For those of you that know more about this deck than I do please help me.
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Standard:GR Eldrazi Ramp
Modern: Mono Green Devotion
Good list. I really feel you can get a lot of benefit from Pulse of Murasa, though: flashback it with Dark-Dwellers, get back an Advocate or a Mindwrack, or even another Dark-Dwellers. It's treated me well during my time piloting Mardu Green, so I don't believe it will get any worse now in Jund.
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Yesterday was all I had. Today is all I have. Tomorrow is all I want.
Im on a Jund Collected Company train right now. Deathmist Raptor, Den Protector, Olivia, Sin Prodder, Sylvan Advocate, flip Nissa and Liliana. Looking at the potential of Ever After in the deck.This is one of my three brews I have going. The other two are U/x Mill and GU Ramp. I will post lists up once I settle on card choices.
Yes do your own testing. All this explains is the math on it. He even accounts himself that even though the math is there variance still plays a huge part of sin prodder.
If you play pulse, kcommand, GDD, AND den Protector the punisher mechanic plays in your favor especially if they just yard everything and take the damage as you just get the spell anyway and he doesn't account for that in the math.
He does mention tireless Tracker which is honestly also a great card and opinion but he mentions a rg midrange deck and says nothing of tri color midrange.
In jund you have multiple options to abuse your graveyard and in rg you only really have pulse and GDD and den Protector. Kcommand is the literal difference as its versatility puts it over the top.
Plus I'd rather have evasion vs just a swelling 3 drop that requires mana to draw the cards.
Man, don't get me wrong...I understand you like the card, I like it too and just got my hands on the full playset...so it's in my best interest to make it work. Even so, the first weeks of the format will be crucial for it's efficiency.
Let me ask you another question. How many K'commands or Pulse would you play MB?
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GBR May the Jund'ish side of the Force be with you! GBR
As far as I could tell I went down to 3 prodder so if you run 3 I'd run about the numbers I was running 2 command 1 pulse. I usually see the pulse just about every game and at least 1 command and a den Protector and it runs pretty smooth.
Of run 4 prodder I'd defiently recommend running 2 and 2.
I mean yah i do like the card but it isn't just because I looked at it and thought the art was awesome or something. I've tested the card heavily even in a grixis shell and it just performs in my testing in both archetypes. GDD, jace, pulse, kcommand, den protectors, and even raptors just make him insane value. The punisher effect isn't even a punisher effect on it when the choose to no give you a card cause you have ways to abuse it.
When you'll play this cards like jace, GDD, DP, etc. You treat your graveyard like it's an extension of your hand or deck. It's another tool in your overall game plan and has to be accounted for.
I've had people bin everything in a game before and take 5-7 damage from the effect and at least another 3 once from prodder himself and lose just because they took to much damage from him and chandra just comes in behind and closes them out.
Most people who think the card is silly and face it in the jund shell and try to bin everything usually realize how much a mistake that is when you start flipping den Protector and flashing stuff back with GDD and then they start taking in account how much he actually does.
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Though to each their own I guess. Most I'd honestly add is two basics so I could go up a swamp and a mountain and could drop a marsh and the abbey.
6 Mountains
3 Swamps
1 Forest
2 Cinder Glade
4 Smoldering Marsh
4 Hissing Quagmire
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Foreboding Ruins
4 Sylvan Advocate
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan
Spells (17)
4 Fiery Impulse
4 Draconic Roar
2 Ruinous Path
2 Foul-Tongue Invocation
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Read the Bones
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Arlinn Kord
2 Ob-Nixilis Reignited
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
Modern: Mono Green Devotion
Also he is basically just a vanilla 6/5 after that with no evasion which is not exactly what jund wants.
4 Sylvan Advocate
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Mindwrack Demon
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Spells (19)
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Fiery Impulse
2 Ultimate Price
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Read the Bones
2 To the Slaughter
2 Dead Weight
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
Lands (25)
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Forest
3 Mountain
3 Swamp
3 Hissing Quagmire
3 Smoldering Marsh
1 Cinder Glade
3 Foreboding Ruins
2 Game Trail
1 Llanowar Wastes
I'm pretty happy with the manabase. I currently have 15 R pips, 9 G pips and 26 B pips with 4 double R and 8 double B. Using Frank Karsten's formula of 4 Evolving Wilds = 3 mana sources of each color, I have 15 R sources, 12 G sources and 16 B sources. Lands will come in tapped, at some point. That's just something we have to accept when running a 3 color deck in this format. My approach is mainly focused on RB with G as the splash.
I honestly think Evolving Wilds of some number is a necessary evil with a 3 color deck, and I'm happy to run 4 Wilds since I'm running more Delirium cards than many of the lists posted in this thread.
Mindwrack Demon has been really good for me in testing. He feeds Delirium and makes Dark-Dwellers that much better. He also gives us a good answer to Planeswalkers without having to run Ruinous Path. He ignores Gideon's, Nissa's and Arlin's tokens and flies over to smack them in the face. Chandra can't kill him the turn she comes down. Sorin can come down, kill him and live at 1 loyalty, but you can't win them all.
Speaking of Delirium, it's really easy to achieve with this list. To the Slaughter almost always kills a PW at instant speed. Traverse the Ulvenwald has also been pretty good for me. In the early game it helps me fix mana untapped, if needed, and mid/late game it can find me a creature answer or a Hissing Quagmire if I need a manland. It also interacts very well with Dark-Dwellers. I've had games where we're at parity. I cast a Dark-Dwellers, flash back TtU, get another DD, next turn cast the DD, flash back Kolaghan's Command etc etc. Just your typical Jund stuff.
Moving forward, I want to have some number of Duress mainboard. Secure the Wastes is definitely a problem card, and I'd like to have a way to rip it out of the opponent's hand or force them to cast it much earlier than they'd like. I haven't built a sideboard yet. Still waiting to see how the meta shakes out at Baltimore.
I feel like Sylvan Advocate is a very good threat to go pick up with him or Catacomb Sifter if people are running that for the scion. That being said, I agree that a vanilla 6/5 isn't the best of the top end options that we have so I am not sure that just bringing another creature into the field is better than our other top end options.
From my understanding of JUND it is basically supposed to grind an opponent down. Please correct me if that is wrong, I am new to the deck.
I am still very much looking at 9-11 planes walkers, we have some of the best planeswalkers in standard right now available to us and I dont see why we wouldnt use them if we could. I think Deathcap Cultivator makes sense and so does sylvan Advocate, if I am playing so many planes walkers I feel like I would need Goblin Dark Dwellers to artificially increase my spells and utility I feel like Kalitas is a good top end with the removal available. Honesty the top end is the hardest part for me, Kalitas seems to make sense but how much synergy does he really have with no other vampires/zombies to sack to him aside from the things we create as we kill their things. DL Atarka is obviously strong and I have a hard time telling him he doesn't belong in a deck playing red/green. Ulvenwald Hydra is interesting to me simply because it has reach which will be relevant and it can get a land which can be a Hissing Quagmire or a Westville Abbey (I think I would make enough tokens between the walkers and Kalitas to transform Abbey). The problem with more planeswalkers is that I would have less spells and with those walkers I would want 4 oath of nissa's to smooth the mana which only leaves 6ish spots for other spells. Anyway, I apologize, I am just spitballing here, nothing formal, I haven't started play testing yet. For those of you that know more about this deck than I do please help me.
Modern: Mono Green Devotion
Modern: Mono Green Devotion
Standard: N G A W Y R A
Commander: G U B Damia
I have not been testing them yet but I feel like 2 is the number due to their mana cost.
Modern: Mono Green Devotion
This article kinda has me concerned about Sin Prodder. I am curious how it does in practice though.
Modern: Mono Green Devotion
Well, that's nothing new. I said from the begining it's a tricky card and could be really bad or really good...we'll just have to test and see...
If you play pulse, kcommand, GDD, AND den Protector the punisher mechanic plays in your favor especially if they just yard everything and take the damage as you just get the spell anyway and he doesn't account for that in the math.
He does mention tireless Tracker which is honestly also a great card and opinion but he mentions a rg midrange deck and says nothing of tri color midrange.
In jund you have multiple options to abuse your graveyard and in rg you only really have pulse and GDD and den Protector. Kcommand is the literal difference as its versatility puts it over the top.
Plus I'd rather have evasion vs just a swelling 3 drop that requires mana to draw the cards.
Let me ask you another question. How many K'commands or Pulse would you play MB?
Of run 4 prodder I'd defiently recommend running 2 and 2.
When you'll play this cards like jace, GDD, DP, etc. You treat your graveyard like it's an extension of your hand or deck. It's another tool in your overall game plan and has to be accounted for.
I've had people bin everything in a game before and take 5-7 damage from the effect and at least another 3 once from prodder himself and lose just because they took to much damage from him and chandra just comes in behind and closes them out.
Most people who think the card is silly and face it in the jund shell and try to bin everything usually realize how much a mistake that is when you start flipping den Protector and flashing stuff back with GDD and then they start taking in account how much he actually does.