Tainted Remedy seems pretty awful against 4c rites. the deck plays only 2 cutthroats in the main, and sides them out for post-board games. Not a card you want to draw when you're getting whacked by a Reality Smasher.
Not a very fine counter to Sorin either, since they can just opt to +1 sorin and kill you instead. it's not awful if you have a strong clock, I guess.
A good way to fight 4 color rites is with flipping Arlinn Kord (killing their cutthroats and their scry pieces) and playing Deathmist Raptor to make their attacks w/ MD Husk and post-board Smasher terrible.
Unfortunately, Raptor sucks vs. tokens but thems the beats.
I've no problem with Smasher. Ruinous path and BG manland (with deathtouch) deal whith it easily. I don't mind to discard a card, since I have den/command/pulse/GDD.
And I guess it's better to have it on my SB and do not need to use it, than don't have it and need it. Just like naturalize.
I've no problem with Smasher. Ruinous path and BG manland (with deathtouch) deal whith it easily. I don't mind to discard a card, since I have den/command/pulse/GDD.
And I guess it's better to have it on my SB and do not need to use it, than don't have it and need it. Just like naturalize.
I'm glad to hear you have absolute 0 problem with dealing with smashers and TKSs. Maybe I could learn a thing or two from you, since I seem to have problems with those cards despite running all the cards you listed too.
The fact remains, though, that Remedy does absolutely nothing in this MU in the SB games. and no, having a near useless card in the SB is bad, since you could play a card that actually matters in that slot instead.
I've no problem with Smasher. Ruinous path and BG manland (with deathtouch) deal whith it easily. I don't mind to discard a card, since I have den/command/pulse/GDD.
And I guess it's better to have it on my SB and do not need to use it, than don't have it and need it. Just like naturalize.
I'm glad to hear you have absolute 0 problem with dealing with smashers and TKSs. Maybe I could learn a thing or two from you, since I seem to have problems with those cards despite running all the cards you listed too.
The fact remains, though, that Remedy does absolutely nothing in this MU in the SB games. and no, having a near useless card in the SB is bad, since you could play a card that actually matters in that slot instead.
The thing with smasher is, It's a 5/5 trample creature with haste and a good evade. But it costs 5 mana. Of course, with the rites, they can ramp and use the pain land to cast it. But you need to control their field with some global spell and spot removal on zulaport and catacomb sifter. On the other decks, you use trangress to eliminate it, if you can't (maybe you'll need to remove other cards like sorin, gideon, TKS, etc), you have the manland and the ruinous path to eliminate it.
TKS is a card that I'm really affraid of. The tip that I can give is to use infinite obliteration wisely. With GDD and den protector, a curved infinite obliteration iss almost GG when you flashback it. The discard spells from jund are our great weapon.
About the Tainted Remedy, everytime I cast it, my oponents cryes. But what card do you think that would be a better choice for it's place? I could test it and would be glad to let you guys know the results.
PS: Sorry for my poor english. I'm from Brazil, and I'm looking for other places to discuss ideas.
As a player playing both 4 color rites and jund, the best way to fight them post board is load up on removal, and transgress the mind. Roast is killer in this match-up for killing reality smasher. The mana in rites can sometimes be finicky and you often don't curve out to smasher on time without catacomb sifter or loam dryad. Additionally post board rites decks completely ditch the combo and cryptolith rite. They generally board into a value based eldrazi deck.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
As a player playing both 4 color rites and jund, the best way to fight them post board is load up on removal, and transgress the mind. Roast is killer in this match-up for killing reality smasher. The mana in rites can sometimes be finicky and you often don't curve out to smasher on time without catacomb sifter or loam dryad. Additionally post board rites decks completely ditch the combo and cryptolith rite. They generally board into a value based eldrazi deck.
I do understand this and this is why I board 3 Roast and 3 Transgress for this MU. that's still just 5-6 removal spells alongside the Paths to kill the Smashers, which is far from perfect. the card is a real pain and I find it impossible to believe someone has no problem dealing with it, especially when it can come down on t4.
EDIT: I would like to point out that Jund has had 0 showing in paper or in MODO for the last... month? Secure and Abbey are reasons for this, but eldrazi are also one. saying that you have zero problems against the eldrazi package doesn't line up with the reality we are living in.
As a player playing both 4 color rites and jund, the best way to fight them post board is load up on removal, and transgress the mind. Roast is killer in this match-up for killing reality smasher. The mana in rites can sometimes be finicky and you often don't curve out to smasher on time without catacomb sifter or loam dryad. Additionally post board rites decks completely ditch the combo and cryptolith rite. They generally board into a value based eldrazi deck.
I do understand this and this is why I board 3 Roast and 3 Transgress for this MU. that's still just 5-6 removal spells alongside the Paths to kill the Smashers, which is far from perfect. the card is a real pain and I find it impossible to believe someone has no problem dealing with it, especially when it can come down on t4.
EDIT: I would like to point out that Jund has had 0 showing in paper or in MODO for the last... month? Secure and Abbey are reasons for this, but eldrazi are also one. saying that you have zero problems against the eldrazi package doesn't line up with the reality we are living in.
I completely agree, anyone who says they don't have troubles with reality smasher hasn't played the match-up enough. However I do think the match-up is close to 50-50. The lack of tournament showings is somewhat concerning, it's likely that WB Midrange/Control just have better answers. However it's also worthy to note that Grixis Control has put up tons of results, and I really see both Jund and Grixis as being RB control decks at the core. I think it's more of a debate between better recursion and a better win condition in den protector and sylvan advocate + manlands versus jace and counterspells. I think there's merits to both blue and green, but i personally feel like jund is still very viable.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
As a player playing both 4 color rites and jund, the best way to fight them post board is load up on removal, and transgress the mind. Roast is killer in this match-up for killing reality smasher. The mana in rites can sometimes be finicky and you often don't curve out to smasher on time without catacomb sifter or loam dryad. Additionally post board rites decks completely ditch the combo and cryptolith rite. They generally board into a value based eldrazi deck.
I do understand this and this is why I board 3 Roast and 3 Transgress for this MU. that's still just 5-6 removal spells alongside the Paths to kill the Smashers, which is far from perfect. the card is a real pain and I find it impossible to believe someone has no problem dealing with it, especially when it can come down on t4.
EDIT: I would like to point out that Jund has had 0 showing in paper or in MODO for the last... month? Secure and Abbey are reasons for this, but eldrazi are also one. saying that you have zero problems against the eldrazi package doesn't line up with the reality we are living in.
I completely agree, anyone who says they don't have troubles with reality smasher hasn't played the match-up enough. However I do think the match-up is close to 50-50. The lack of tournament showings is somewhat concerning, it's likely that WB Midrange/Control just have better answers. However it's also worthy to note that Grixis Control has put up tons of results, and I really see both Jund and Grixis as being RB control decks at the core. I think it's more of a debate between better recursion and a better win condition in den protector and sylvan advocate + manlands versus jace and counterspells. I think there's merits to both blue and green, but i personally feel like jund is still very viable.
Jund and Grixis play very similar cards definitely. the reason grixis does well in my opinion is jace. the answers in this format are quite narrow - there are tokens, small creatures, dragonlords, reality smashers... playing a reactive deck that doesn't have the wide answers that white has access to means looting is super strong. access to negate and silumgar is also absolutely huge against a deck like GW tokens.
this is why I think Jund has to try to be aggressive. you can't make up for the lack of card selection and a card like negate any other way. Dark-Dwellers is value, yes, but it's also a 4/4 menace with tempo value added which is what makes the card great on the offense. I'm not sure I have found the perfect list but I think it's the right direction at least.
As a player playing both 4 color rites and jund, the best way to fight them post board is load up on removal, and transgress the mind. Roast is killer in this match-up for killing reality smasher. The mana in rites can sometimes be finicky and you often don't curve out to smasher on time without catacomb sifter or loam dryad. Additionally post board rites decks completely ditch the combo and cryptolith rite. They generally board into a value based eldrazi deck.
I do understand this and this is why I board 3 Roast and 3 Transgress for this MU. that's still just 5-6 removal spells alongside the Paths to kill the Smashers, which is far from perfect. the card is a real pain and I find it impossible to believe someone has no problem dealing with it, especially when it can come down on t4.
EDIT: I would like to point out that Jund has had 0 showing in paper or in MODO for the last... month? Secure and Abbey are reasons for this, but eldrazi are also one. saying that you have zero problems against the eldrazi package doesn't line up with the reality we are living in.
I completely agree, anyone who says they don't have troubles with reality smasher hasn't played the match-up enough. However I do think the match-up is close to 50-50. The lack of tournament showings is somewhat concerning, it's likely that WB Midrange/Control just have better answers. However it's also worthy to note that Grixis Control has put up tons of results, and I really see both Jund and Grixis as being RB control decks at the core. I think it's more of a debate between better recursion and a better win condition in den protector and sylvan advocate + manlands versus jace and counterspells. I think there's merits to both blue and green, but i personally feel like jund is still very viable.
Jund and Grixis play very similar cards definitely. the reason grixis does well in my opinion is jace. the answers in this format are quite narrow - there are tokens, small creatures, dragonlords, reality smashers... playing a reactive deck that doesn't have the wide answers that white has access to means looting is super strong. access to negate and silumgar is also absolutely huge against a deck like GW tokens.
this is why I think Jund has to try to be aggressive. you can't make up for the lack of card selection and a card like negate any other way. Dark-Dwellers is value, yes, but it's also a 4/4 menace with tempo value added which is what makes the card great on the offense. I'm not sure I have found the perfect list but I think it's the right direction at least.
Correct. In the games I've dominated against the likes of BW, tokens, and grixis etc.. were off the back of aggressive starts per T3/T4 Mindwrack. If needed, recursion allowed an easy finish. Demon always caught my opponents "off-guard".
As a player playing both 4 color rites and jund, the best way to fight them post board is load up on removal, and transgress the mind. Roast is killer in this match-up for killing reality smasher. The mana in rites can sometimes be finicky and you often don't curve out to smasher on time without catacomb sifter or loam dryad. Additionally post board rites decks completely ditch the combo and cryptolith rite. They generally board into a value based eldrazi deck.
I do understand this and this is why I board 3 Roast and 3 Transgress for this MU. that's still just 5-6 removal spells alongside the Paths to kill the Smashers, which is far from perfect. the card is a real pain and I find it impossible to believe someone has no problem dealing with it, especially when it can come down on t4.
EDIT: I would like to point out that Jund has had 0 showing in paper or in MODO for the last... month? Secure and Abbey are reasons for this, but eldrazi are also one. saying that you have zero problems against the eldrazi package doesn't line up with the reality we are living in.
I completely agree, anyone who says they don't have troubles with reality smasher hasn't played the match-up enough. However I do think the match-up is close to 50-50. The lack of tournament showings is somewhat concerning, it's likely that WB Midrange/Control just have better answers. However it's also worthy to note that Grixis Control has put up tons of results, and I really see both Jund and Grixis as being RB control decks at the core. I think it's more of a debate between better recursion and a better win condition in den protector and sylvan advocate + manlands versus jace and counterspells. I think there's merits to both blue and green, but i personally feel like jund is still very viable.
Jund and Grixis play very similar cards definitely. the reason grixis does well in my opinion is jace. the answers in this format are quite narrow - there are tokens, small creatures, dragonlords, reality smashers... playing a reactive deck that doesn't have the wide answers that white has access to means looting is super strong. access to negate and silumgar is also absolutely huge against a deck like GW tokens.
this is why I think Jund has to try to be aggressive. you can't make up for the lack of card selection and a card like negate any other way. Dark-Dwellers is value, yes, but it's also a 4/4 menace with tempo value added which is what makes the card great on the offense. I'm not sure I have found the perfect list but I think it's the right direction at least.
Correct. In the games I've dominated against the likes of BW, tokens, and grixis etc.. were off the back of aggressive starts per T3/T4 Mindwrack. If needed, recursion allowed an easy finish. Demon always caught my opponents "off-guard".
I actually think that were heavily favored against grixis as we generally have similar answers, but several more ways of closing out the game. BW is also a grind-em out matchup where even though their answers are better we have better recursion and more 2 for 1's. The main problematic part of those decks is walkers when you don't have an immediate answer. GW tokens just doesn't seem to be a great match-up, atleast the times I've played against it.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
I actually think that were heavily favored against grixis as we generally have similar answers, but several more ways of closing out the game. BW is also a grind-em out matchup where even though their answers are better we have better recursion and more 2 for 1's. The main problematic part of those decks is walkers when you don't have an immediate answer. GW tokens just doesn't seem to be a great match-up, atleast the times I've played against it.
Jund can have a good MU against grixis, what I meant is that Grixis is advantaged against the rest of the field because it has superb card selection and tools against GW tokens. both decks fold to BW control in the late game.
I actually think that were heavily favored against grixis as we generally have similar answers, but several more ways of closing out the game. BW is also a grind-em out matchup where even though their answers are better we have better recursion and more 2 for 1's. The main problematic part of those decks is walkers when you don't have an immediate answer. GW tokens just doesn't seem to be a great match-up, atleast the times I've played against it.
I agree. I think the matchup against Grixis is good.
Duress early and often, Infinite Obliteration their Dark-Dwellers, Jace VPs and Silumgar, play all your painful draw spells (they can't kill you quickly), and control their early Jace's with Grasp of Darkness/To the Slaughter/Ruinous Path. T3 Path against a T2 Jace doesn't seem especially efficient, but, you really just need to limit their CS/early board, let their removal spells rot in hand, and starve them of CS/CA until you out value-them.
B/W is another story. It's very tough to beat them G1 as we don't usually have any MD answers to Secure the Wastes or Westvale Abbey. We grind plenty fine to keep up with them, but Secure is absolutely beastly against us. G2/3, you play as you would against Grixis control, but you might want to swap out the Grasp of Darkness' and board in your anti-Secure the Wastes/Westvale Abbey package, of which I recommend some combination of Duress, Crumble to Dust, Kozilek's Return, Virulent Plague, or Languish (although Languish is a bit overkill and slow for this purpose). I would tend towards dealing with Secure the Wastes before dealing with Abbey as they can still kill you extremely fast without an Abbey if they resolve a big Secure the Wastes (+gideon next turn, is probs GG).
G/W tokens I would recommend boarding in all your Languish and PW removal. It'll be tough- you'll need to survive several walkers played back to back. Languish should keep the tokens from over-running you, and Ruinous can take care of the walkers, but you'll probably be behind for several turns before you are able to stabilize. Pulse is good for keeping your head above water life-wise while you weather the storm of their curve-out.
4c Rites gets absolutely crushed by Languish and Infinite Obliteration. I don't worry about that matchup at all.
Bant Company still seems to be the best deck in the format to me, and our toughest matchup.
4c Rites gets absolutely crushed by Languish and Infinite Obliteration. I don't worry about that matchup at all.
Bant Company still seems to be the best deck in the format to me, and our toughest matchup.
4c rites is 16% of the online metagame and Jund is 0%. If rites was easy to simply crush like that, I think someone would have done it at this point already. your assessment sounds very optimistic given that Jund seemingly hasn't performed in any way. even on general level I don't think fighting on same axis with BW control or Grixis is advisable. what are you even playing green for at that point? the only draw to Jund is Sylvan Advocate and for me Deathcap Cultivator. If you're not trying to be get ahead on the board with advocate and find yourself boarding into a controlling deck with infinite obliteration and languish all the time, then just cut the green and play Grixis or even RB instead. those decks are just strictly better at doing what you're trying to do with Jund at that point.
using cards like clip wings (or crumble to dust) to try to not lose to westvale abbey is just pitiful and foolish when you think of the options that Grixis and BW have.
4c Rites gets absolutely crushed by Languish and Infinite Obliteration. I don't worry about that matchup at all.
Bant Company still seems to be the best deck in the format to me, and our toughest matchup.
4c rites is 16% of the online metagame and Jund is 0%. If rites was easy to simply crush like that, I think someone would have done it at this point already. your assessment sounds very optimistic given that Jund seemingly hasn't performed in any way.
Why do you assume that a close to optimal Jund build for this meta has been found and tried competitively with a decent pilot at any major event? The vast majority of Jund lists I see, including most on this very thread, are very poorly built in my opinion.
Have you forgotten the W/B Seth Manfield list which ran 4x Languish and 1x Planar Outburst? It absolutely crushed tokens and rites. Repeatedly.
Do you really think I'm lying about my record against rites when I myself have 2 Languish/2 Chandra MB? And post-board, where I have access to an additional Languish, 2 Kozilek's Return's and 2 Infinite Obliteration? Cmon now...
even on general level I don't think fighting on same axis with BW control or Grixis is advisable. what are you even playing green for at that point? the only draw to Jund is Sylvan Advocate and for me Deathcap Cultivator.
As for your comment about Green mana, we use green for Traverse the Ulvenwald, Sylvan Advocate, Den Protector, Pulse of Murasa, and Nissa, Vastwood Seer. I'm surprised you didn't mention them. I suppose you think Den Protector is a bad card in some way?
If you're not trying to be get ahead on the board with advocate and find yourself boarding into a controlling deck with infinite obliteration and languish all the time, then just cut the green and play Grixis or even RB instead. those decks are just strictly better at doing what you're trying to do with Jund at that point.
I think you should be more careful when using the word 'strictly'. It denotes that you know for sure, definitively and provably, and I think you are just speculating right now. If not, where is the proof? Do you really think they are better just because blue can cast Negate and Dispel?
And, in fact, my deck IS based around applying early pressure with Sylvan Advocate, hand disruption with Duress, and graveyard recursion with Eternal Witness Den Protector, so yes, I have legit reasons for not wanting to play Grixis, with it's over-reliance on the fragile and un-threatening Jace, or RB, with it's lack of life-gain or efficient beaters.
As a sidenote, I routinely beat those decks as well. Guess who is (also) really weak to Infinite Obliteration? Grixis Control and R/B...
using cards like clip wings (or crumble to dust) to try to not lose to westvale abbey is just pitiful and foolish when you think of the options that Grixis and BW have.
I never mentioned clip wings. Crumble is fine as a 1-of. I'm really not sure what you have against it other than it clearly isn't Anguished Unmaking. Between 4 Duress post-sideboard, 2 Kozilek's Return, and 1 World Breaker, I feel fairly prepared for the Secure the Wastes that nearly always precedes it, personally. I was just mentioning options that others may like to explore.
Obviously I'm aware this is the.seasons deck past splash red but honestly this is the most jund deck I've played in awhile. I never feel like a match up is just completely poor game 1 and running 4 tutors basically makes it were you can toolbox your sideboard for any meta. I dominate easily every Monday and Friday at my shop. Haven't been able.to start grinding the pptq circuit recently but still feel.I'd have a good shot at taking one down with this list.
Atarka is the only iffy card as I've never felt.like I just needed her in any scenario. I get she is there to end games quickly and also as a pseudo removal spell and threat but I feel like ob nixilis and chandra do much.better at that but I guess to.the point atarka doesn't compete in cmc slots when you seasons past
Obviously I'm aware this is the.seasons deck past splash red but honestly this is the most jund deck I've played in awhile. I never feel like a match up is just completely poor game 1 and running 4 tutors basically makes it were you can toolbox your sideboard for any meta. I dominate easily every Monday and Friday at my shop. Haven't been able.to start grinding the pptq circuit recently but still feel.I'd have a good shot at taking one down with this list.
Atarka is the only iffy card as I've never felt.like I just needed her in any scenario. I get she is there to end games quickly and also as a pseudo removal spell and threat but I feel like ob nixilis and chandra do much.better at that but I guess to.the point atarka doesn't compete in cmc slots when you seasons past
Also to note I've never lost to 4c rites, gb aristocrats, or bant company and, when I say never lost I mean never lost. Might have dropped a game here and there due to variance or bad draws but never lost a round against them.
Only deck.that is of issue is dragons and naya planeswalkers but both I feel like can be hedged against of they're in your.meta.
4c Rites gets absolutely crushed by Languish and Infinite Obliteration. I don't worry about that matchup at all.
Bant Company still seems to be the best deck in the format to me, and our toughest matchup.
4c rites is 16% of the online metagame and Jund is 0%. If rites was easy to simply crush like that, I think someone would have done it at this point already. your assessment sounds very optimistic given that Jund seemingly hasn't performed in any way.
Why do you assume that a close to optimal Jund build for this meta has been found and tried competitively with a decent pilot at any major event? That vast majority of Jund lists I see, including most on this very thread, are very poorly built in my opinion.
Have you forgotten the W/B Seth Manfield list which ran 4x Languish and 1x Planar Outburst? It absolutely crushed tokens and rites. Repeatedly.
Do you really think I'm lying about my record against rites when I myself have 2 Languish/2 Chandra MB? And post-board, where I have access to an additional Languish, 2 Kozilek's Return's and 2 Infinite Obliteration? Cmon now...
I don't think you are lying. the problem is that other people can't replicate your success, including me. I don't think the MU is awful, especially G1, but the SB games are just so tough to win. if you can start putting up 5-0 or 4-1 results in standard leagues on MODO or cash in at GPs, then that would make me believe there really is something. so far there has been 0 competitive results. good pilots are not picking this deck up because it has so many weaknesses. this is at least lsv's stance which he has expressed more than once.
I don't like most Jund lists either, although for different reasons I'd imagine. I believe Jund should try to be aggressive. this is why don't like languish off the board in most MUs, because usually other decks have the inevitability. This why I dislike Den Protector too; it's way too slow compared to something like a GDD.
I liked this deck in vacuum before secure and abbey and eldrazi were established as part of the metagame. I tried different things all this time and I keep getting horrible results! 18-19 record is absolutely appalling but that's where we are at. I'm playing the deck at a PPTQ this Saturday because I like the deck, hoping to get lucky and fade the most difficult MUs.
4c Rites gets absolutely crushed by Languish and Infinite Obliteration. I don't worry about that matchup at all.
Bant Company still seems to be the best deck in the format to me, and our toughest matchup.
4c rites is 16% of the online metagame and Jund is 0%. If rites was easy to simply crush like that, I think someone would have done it at this point already. your assessment sounds very optimistic given that Jund seemingly hasn't performed in any way.
Why do you assume that a close to optimal Jund build for this meta has been found and tried competitively with a decent pilot at any major event? That vast majority of Jund lists I see, including most on this very thread, are very poorly built in my opinion.
Have you forgotten the W/B Seth Manfield list which ran 4x Languish and 1x Planar Outburst? It absolutely crushed tokens and rites. Repeatedly.
Do you really think I'm lying about my record against rites when I myself have 2 Languish/2 Chandra MB? And post-board, where I have access to an additional Languish, 2 Kozilek's Return's and 2 Infinite Obliteration? Cmon now...
I don't think you are lying. the problem is that other people can't replicate your success, including me. I don't think the MU is awful, especially G1, but the SB games are just so tough to win. if you can start putting up 5-0 or 4-1 results in standard leagues on MODO or cash in at GPs, then that would make me believe there really is something. so far there has been 0 competitive results. good pilots are not picking this deck up because it has so many weaknesses. this is at least lsv's stance which he has expressed more than once.
I don't like most Jund lists either, although for different reasons I'd imagine. I believe Jund should try to be aggressive. this is why don't like languish off the board in most MUs, because usually other decks have the inevitability. This why I dislike Den Protector too; it's way too slow compared to something like a GDD.
I liked this deck in vacuum before secure and abbey and eldrazi were established as part of the metagame. I tried different things all this time and I keep getting horrible results! 18-19 record is absolutely appalling but that's where we are at. I'm playing the deck at a PPTQ this Saturday because I like the deck, hoping to get lucky and fade the most difficult MUs.
Looking at your list, I feel like you are always going to have a problem replicating others' success against 4c Rites if you are unwilling to play Infinite Obliteration at all, or to field sweepers in your maindeck. I recommend 2 copies along with a Dark Petition to ensure that you can find it out of the sideboard.
4c Rites gets absolutely crushed by Languish and Infinite Obliteration. I don't worry about that matchup at all.
Bant Company still seems to be the best deck in the format to me, and our toughest matchup.
4c rites is 16% of the online metagame and Jund is 0%. If rites was easy to simply crush like that, I think someone would have done it at this point already. your assessment sounds very optimistic given that Jund seemingly hasn't performed in any way.
Why do you assume that a close to optimal Jund build for this meta has been found and tried competitively with a decent pilot at any major event? That vast majority of Jund lists I see, including most on this very thread, are very poorly built in my opinion.
Have you forgotten the W/B Seth Manfield list which ran 4x Languish and 1x Planar Outburst? It absolutely crushed tokens and rites. Repeatedly.
Do you really think I'm lying about my record against rites when I myself have 2 Languish/2 Chandra MB? And post-board, where I have access to an additional Languish, 2 Kozilek's Return's and 2 Infinite Obliteration? Cmon now...
I don't think you are lying. the problem is that other people can't replicate your success, including me. I don't think the MU is awful, especially G1, but the SB games are just so tough to win. if you can start putting up 5-0 or 4-1 results in standard leagues on MODO or cash in at GPs, then that would make me believe there really is something. so far there has been 0 competitive results. good pilots are not picking this deck up because it has so many weaknesses. this is at least lsv's stance which he has expressed more than once.
I don't like most Jund lists either, although for different reasons I'd imagine. I believe Jund should try to be aggressive. this is why don't like languish off the board in most MUs, because usually other decks have the inevitability. This why I dislike Den Protector too; it's way too slow compared to something like a GDD.
I liked this deck in vacuum before secure and abbey and eldrazi were established as part of the metagame. I tried different things all this time and I keep getting horrible results! 18-19 record is absolutely appalling but that's where we are at. I'm playing the deck at a PPTQ this Saturday because I like the deck, hoping to get lucky and fade the most difficult MUs.
Looking at your list, I feel like you are always going to have a problem replicating others' success against 4c Rites if you are unwilling to play Infinite Obliteration at all, or to field sweepers in your maindeck. I recommend 2 copies along with a Dark Petition to ensure that you can find it out of the sideboard.
I just don't think Flames is a good MD options when my losses in game one come against GW tokens and BW control. it would be horrible in my build especially. Obliteration is just a generally bad card, it's basically a 5-mana Ruinous Path, and that card is expensive as is already.
I generally think Obliteration is a very bad card, but Smasher is such a problem I could maybe see myself playing it against rites. still, I'd rather first up the number of removal I have for a resolved Smasher.
I haven't seen anyone put up good results with this deck so I'm obviously trusting my own judgment on things before anything else.
I haven't seen anyone put up good results with this deck so I'm obviously trusting my own judgment on things before anything else.
Haha don't you always trust your own judgment and never listen to anyone else anyway?
I'll be switching over to Jund and Mardu from Grixis (got an offer to trade my baby Jaces for Scalding Tarns that I couldn't refuse). My version of Jund is very Grixis-like. Will post up tournament results and whatnot here. Earliest event for me will be an IQ on the fourth.
My version of Jund is very Grixis-like. Will post up tournament results and whatnot here. Earliest event for me will be an IQ on the fourth.
That's how I built mine, and I believe that if this deck is to succeed then that is the direction it needs to go. The decks are incredibly similar. To me it seems like it's the preference between having access to jace, dragonlord silumgar and negate versus having access to den protector, sylvan advocate, and for some tireless tracker.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
Not a very fine counter to Sorin either, since they can just opt to +1 sorin and kill you instead. it's not awful if you have a strong clock, I guess.
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Unfortunately, Raptor sucks vs. tokens but thems the beats.
And I guess it's better to have it on my SB and do not need to use it, than don't have it and need it. Just like naturalize.
I'm glad to hear you have absolute 0 problem with dealing with smashers and TKSs. Maybe I could learn a thing or two from you, since I seem to have problems with those cards despite running all the cards you listed too.
The fact remains, though, that Remedy does absolutely nothing in this MU in the SB games. and no, having a near useless card in the SB is bad, since you could play a card that actually matters in that slot instead.
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The thing with smasher is, It's a 5/5 trample creature with haste and a good evade. But it costs 5 mana. Of course, with the rites, they can ramp and use the pain land to cast it. But you need to control their field with some global spell and spot removal on zulaport and catacomb sifter. On the other decks, you use trangress to eliminate it, if you can't (maybe you'll need to remove other cards like sorin, gideon, TKS, etc), you have the manland and the ruinous path to eliminate it.
TKS is a card that I'm really affraid of. The tip that I can give is to use infinite obliteration wisely. With GDD and den protector, a curved infinite obliteration iss almost GG when you flashback it. The discard spells from jund are our great weapon.
About the Tainted Remedy, everytime I cast it, my oponents cryes. But what card do you think that would be a better choice for it's place? I could test it and would be glad to let you guys know the results.
PS: Sorry for my poor english. I'm from Brazil, and I'm looking for other places to discuss ideas.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
I do understand this and this is why I board 3 Roast and 3 Transgress for this MU. that's still just 5-6 removal spells alongside the Paths to kill the Smashers, which is far from perfect. the card is a real pain and I find it impossible to believe someone has no problem dealing with it, especially when it can come down on t4.
EDIT: I would like to point out that Jund has had 0 showing in paper or in MODO for the last... month? Secure and Abbey are reasons for this, but eldrazi are also one. saying that you have zero problems against the eldrazi package doesn't line up with the reality we are living in.
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I completely agree, anyone who says they don't have troubles with reality smasher hasn't played the match-up enough. However I do think the match-up is close to 50-50. The lack of tournament showings is somewhat concerning, it's likely that WB Midrange/Control just have better answers. However it's also worthy to note that Grixis Control has put up tons of results, and I really see both Jund and Grixis as being RB control decks at the core. I think it's more of a debate between better recursion and a better win condition in den protector and sylvan advocate + manlands versus jace and counterspells. I think there's merits to both blue and green, but i personally feel like jund is still very viable.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
Jund and Grixis play very similar cards definitely. the reason grixis does well in my opinion is jace. the answers in this format are quite narrow - there are tokens, small creatures, dragonlords, reality smashers... playing a reactive deck that doesn't have the wide answers that white has access to means looting is super strong. access to negate and silumgar is also absolutely huge against a deck like GW tokens.
this is why I think Jund has to try to be aggressive. you can't make up for the lack of card selection and a card like negate any other way. Dark-Dwellers is value, yes, but it's also a 4/4 menace with tempo value added which is what makes the card great on the offense. I'm not sure I have found the perfect list but I think it's the right direction at least.
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Correct. In the games I've dominated against the likes of BW, tokens, and grixis etc.. were off the back of aggressive starts per T3/T4 Mindwrack. If needed, recursion allowed an easy finish. Demon always caught my opponents "off-guard".
Correct. In the games I've dominated against the likes of BW, tokens, and grixis etc.. were off the back of aggressive starts per T3/T4 Mindwrack. If needed, recursion allowed an easy finish. Demon always caught my opponents "off-guard".
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
Jund can have a good MU against grixis, what I meant is that Grixis is advantaged against the rest of the field because it has superb card selection and tools against GW tokens. both decks fold to BW control in the late game.
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I agree. I think the matchup against Grixis is good.
Duress early and often, Infinite Obliteration their Dark-Dwellers, Jace VPs and Silumgar, play all your painful draw spells (they can't kill you quickly), and control their early Jace's with Grasp of Darkness/To the Slaughter/Ruinous Path. T3 Path against a T2 Jace doesn't seem especially efficient, but, you really just need to limit their CS/early board, let their removal spells rot in hand, and starve them of CS/CA until you out value-them.
B/W is another story. It's very tough to beat them G1 as we don't usually have any MD answers to Secure the Wastes or Westvale Abbey. We grind plenty fine to keep up with them, but Secure is absolutely beastly against us. G2/3, you play as you would against Grixis control, but you might want to swap out the Grasp of Darkness' and board in your anti-Secure the Wastes/Westvale Abbey package, of which I recommend some combination of Duress, Crumble to Dust, Kozilek's Return, Virulent Plague, or Languish (although Languish is a bit overkill and slow for this purpose). I would tend towards dealing with Secure the Wastes before dealing with Abbey as they can still kill you extremely fast without an Abbey if they resolve a big Secure the Wastes (+gideon next turn, is probs GG).
G/W tokens I would recommend boarding in all your Languish and PW removal. It'll be tough- you'll need to survive several walkers played back to back. Languish should keep the tokens from over-running you, and Ruinous can take care of the walkers, but you'll probably be behind for several turns before you are able to stabilize. Pulse is good for keeping your head above water life-wise while you weather the storm of their curve-out.
4c Rites gets absolutely crushed by Languish and Infinite Obliteration. I don't worry about that matchup at all.
Bant Company still seems to be the best deck in the format to me, and our toughest matchup.
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
4c rites is 16% of the online metagame and Jund is 0%. If rites was easy to simply crush like that, I think someone would have done it at this point already. your assessment sounds very optimistic given that Jund seemingly hasn't performed in any way. even on general level I don't think fighting on same axis with BW control or Grixis is advisable. what are you even playing green for at that point? the only draw to Jund is Sylvan Advocate and for me Deathcap Cultivator. If you're not trying to be get ahead on the board with advocate and find yourself boarding into a controlling deck with infinite obliteration and languish all the time, then just cut the green and play Grixis or even RB instead. those decks are just strictly better at doing what you're trying to do with Jund at that point.
using cards like clip wings (or crumble to dust) to try to not lose to westvale abbey is just pitiful and foolish when you think of the options that Grixis and BW have.
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I've definitely been considering this card. It does fight for its slot with Mindwrack, though.
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Why do you assume that a close to optimal Jund build for this meta has been found and tried competitively with a decent pilot at any major event? The vast majority of Jund lists I see, including most on this very thread, are very poorly built in my opinion.
Have you forgotten the W/B Seth Manfield list which ran 4x Languish and 1x Planar Outburst? It absolutely crushed tokens and rites. Repeatedly.
Do you really think I'm lying about my record against rites when I myself have 2 Languish/2 Chandra MB? And post-board, where I have access to an additional Languish, 2 Kozilek's Return's and 2 Infinite Obliteration? Cmon now...
As for your comment about Green mana, we use green for Traverse the Ulvenwald, Sylvan Advocate, Den Protector, Pulse of Murasa, and Nissa, Vastwood Seer. I'm surprised you didn't mention them. I suppose you think Den Protector is a bad card in some way?
I think you should be more careful when using the word 'strictly'. It denotes that you know for sure, definitively and provably, and I think you are just speculating right now. If not, where is the proof? Do you really think they are better just because blue can cast Negate and Dispel?
And, in fact, my deck IS based around applying early pressure with Sylvan Advocate, hand disruption with Duress, and graveyard recursion with
Eternal WitnessDen Protector, so yes, I have legit reasons for not wanting to play Grixis, with it's over-reliance on the fragile and un-threatening Jace, or RB, with it's lack of life-gain or efficient beaters.As a sidenote, I routinely beat those decks as well. Guess who is (also) really weak to Infinite Obliteration? Grixis Control and R/B...
I never mentioned clip wings. Crumble is fine as a 1-of. I'm really not sure what you have against it other than it clearly isn't Anguished Unmaking. Between 4 Duress post-sideboard, 2 Kozilek's Return, and 1 World Breaker, I feel fairly prepared for the Secure the Wastes that nearly always precedes it, personally. I was just mentioning options that others may like to explore.
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
1 Dragonlord Atarka
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ultimate Price
3 Ruinous Path
4 Dark petition
1 Radiant Flames
3 Languish
2 Seasons Past
2 Painful Truths
3 Read the Bones
1 Nissa's Revelation
2 Duress
2 Transgress the Mind
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
4 Smoldering marsh
2 cinder glade
4 hissing Quagmire
4 Evolving Wilds
6 Swamp
4 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Infinite obleteration
2 Radiant Flames
1 Virulent Plague
2 Duress
1 Transgress the mind
2 Kolaghan's command
4 Sylvan Advocate
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Obviously I'm aware this is the.seasons deck past splash red but honestly this is the most jund deck I've played in awhile. I never feel like a match up is just completely poor game 1 and running 4 tutors basically makes it were you can toolbox your sideboard for any meta. I dominate easily every Monday and Friday at my shop. Haven't been able.to start grinding the pptq circuit recently but still feel.I'd have a good shot at taking one down with this list.
Atarka is the only iffy card as I've never felt.like I just needed her in any scenario. I get she is there to end games quickly and also as a pseudo removal spell and threat but I feel like ob nixilis and chandra do much.better at that but I guess to.the point atarka doesn't compete in cmc slots when you seasons past
Also to note I've never lost to 4c rites, gb aristocrats, or bant company and, when I say never lost I mean never lost. Might have dropped a game here and there due to variance or bad draws but never lost a round against them.
Only deck.that is of issue is dragons and naya planeswalkers but both I feel like can be hedged against of they're in your.meta.
I don't think you are lying. the problem is that other people can't replicate your success, including me. I don't think the MU is awful, especially G1, but the SB games are just so tough to win. if you can start putting up 5-0 or 4-1 results in standard leagues on MODO or cash in at GPs, then that would make me believe there really is something. so far there has been 0 competitive results. good pilots are not picking this deck up because it has so many weaknesses. this is at least lsv's stance which he has expressed more than once.
I don't like most Jund lists either, although for different reasons I'd imagine. I believe Jund should try to be aggressive. this is why don't like languish off the board in most MUs, because usually other decks have the inevitability. This why I dislike Den Protector too; it's way too slow compared to something like a GDD.
I liked this deck in vacuum before secure and abbey and eldrazi were established as part of the metagame. I tried different things all this time and I keep getting horrible results! 18-19 record is absolutely appalling but that's where we are at. I'm playing the deck at a PPTQ this Saturday because I like the deck, hoping to get lucky and fade the most difficult MUs.
Youtube Channel
Looking at your list, I feel like you are always going to have a problem replicating others' success against 4c Rites if you are unwilling to play Infinite Obliteration at all, or to field sweepers in your maindeck. I recommend 2 copies along with a Dark Petition to ensure that you can find it out of the sideboard.
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
I just don't think Flames is a good MD options when my losses in game one come against GW tokens and BW control. it would be horrible in my build especially. Obliteration is just a generally bad card, it's basically a 5-mana Ruinous Path, and that card is expensive as is already.
I generally think Obliteration is a very bad card, but Smasher is such a problem I could maybe see myself playing it against rites. still, I'd rather first up the number of removal I have for a resolved Smasher.
I haven't seen anyone put up good results with this deck so I'm obviously trusting my own judgment on things before anything else.
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Haha don't you always trust your own judgment and never listen to anyone else anyway?
I'll be switching over to Jund and Mardu from Grixis (got an offer to trade my baby Jaces for Scalding Tarns that I couldn't refuse). My version of Jund is very Grixis-like. Will post up tournament results and whatnot here. Earliest event for me will be an IQ on the fourth.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/2820-tradesies
That's how I built mine, and I believe that if this deck is to succeed then that is the direction it needs to go. The decks are incredibly similar. To me it seems like it's the preference between having access to jace, dragonlord silumgar and negate versus having access to den protector, sylvan advocate, and for some tireless tracker.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
3 Read the Bones
2 Duress
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Ruinous Path
2 Fiery Impulse
1 Ultimate Price
2 Grasp of Darkness
3 Arlinn Kord
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Deathcap Cultivator
3 Sylvan Advocate
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Hissing Quagmire
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Forest
2 Cinder Glade
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
3 Smoldering Marsh
1 Game Trail
1 Duress
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Fiery Impulse
1 Roast
1 Gilt-Leaf Winnower
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Radiant Flames
1 Painful Truths
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Virulent Plague
1 Chandra's Ignition
1 Remorseless Punishment
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