Let me start off by saying the mana was conceived on the spot. It definitely is unpolished. But this is where I am starting as far as a base for a decklist. Oath/Gideon/Secure was already a proven strategy before this rotation, and with Westvale Abbey being yet another payoff for using tokens. Since we do have Avacyn, Secure the Wastes, Ormendahl, Profane Prince, and Gideon as ways we can end games quickly, I felt one Sorin was plenty. The list has modest lifegain, early value threats and strong removal for support. I am going for using removal that is non biased due to the new format, But I have considered To the Slaughter and Ruinous path.
Imo ruinous path is still great, esp with the awaken option in there for late game.
I'm actually considering running 1 Linvala main and siding my 2 Avacyns. Linvala is just great at closing out long games where Avacyns toolbox seems to be matchup specific - I haven't been able to test her out so any opinions on this are very welcome!
I've got a couple Avacyn, probably keep her in SB though. her flip just isn't useful in some match-ups. I am def gonna keep at least 2 Ruinous path in the main, I find it sooooooo useful.
So here's another point of conversation: Should we run creatures or no? I've seen builds on here for both sides. While running creatures enables their removal, is the upside of Kalitas, Hangarback, Avacyn, etc worth keeping them? Or would more removal just work better? I'd love to hear your guy's thoughts on this. I'm currently running a creature-less version, with the lone exception of tokens so I only know one side of it.
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Standard Decks:
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
Kalitas--3/4=good blocker +Lifegain. If he sticks, your removal nets you dudes.
Avacyn--even without the flip--flash makes her so powerful. You can block with whoever you have and have indestructible on board, you can surprise block and kill their guys, the flip is nice.
Avacyn+Kalitas=silly.
I admittedly haven't tested Ayli, but I'd rather have a kill spell than a little creature with death touch.
I don't think I'm going to be running any Duress or Transgress the Mind week 1. As expected there should be a lot of aggro decks and I'm not keen on running hand disruption for that reason.
I posted matchups in the new standard discussion thread (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/standard-archives/679541-b-w-control?page=4#c100), but will summarize here. Deck crushes most GBx, Vampires, UWx strategies. I feel pretty even with Bant Company, GR tokens, GR Ramp, GB Abbey/Rite shenanigans, and GW Humans builds. Deck does not feel good against Red Eldrazi. That matchup has been miserable. The sweepers could probably be adjusted. I'm not sure what card in the board would be great against Eldrazi plus Thopters and Chandra, but I feel like I could trim some Surge of Righteousness since mono red/vampires has seemed weak from what I've seen.
Cut the delirium synergies, because it was hard to get the 4/4 off of Descend Upon. No Dead Weight, no Evolving Wilds. Silkwrap is fine, but answer alls are just better. Wish the mana was good enough for Stasis Snare. The fourth Transgress could probably be trimmed depending on how much Ramp there is.
Edit: The clues don't matter super much, because you really want to be killing tokens with it, but otherwise a lot of decks are built to be using their mana a lot and can't take the time off to activate it early on. Later in the game we are drawing cards with Sorin and Ob so we can match what cards they are able to draw off the clues.
This is more or less what I've been building towards, I'm still using Wilds and Descend - the 4/4 is a bonus, the big upside is exiling everything on their board -1 Ob nix +1 Sorin, -1 oath +1 anguished, swap planar for descend
In however many matches, like thirty or forty so far, I've never been able to trigger the Delirium for it. I often note what games I actually get it, pretty much only against control mirrors where I don't need the sweeper effect. Instants and sorceries are easy, planeswalker, enchantment, land are spotty enough that it is hard to ever get two out of three in a reasonable game.
Stasis Snare is only worth running if you expect tons of Reality Smasher in your metagame. Silkwrap is just outclassed by Declaration. And I don't think I would ever cast a Quarantine Field with Anguished Unmaking and Dromoka's Command around, especially when a majority of your targets are creatures and not noncreature permanents.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
My current games day list has all creatures (ie 2 avacyn 2 kalitas) in the board, linvala main, this week though the hand disrupted will probably be pruned a bit and kalitas brought in from the SB...gonna be janky as hell but I still won't have about 5 interaction cards until end of next week...probably just replace them with Ulti prices and murderous cuts or something.
I think going into game 1 with minimal creatures and more control is probably a decent spot to be in, reevaluate after game 1
The power of the deck lies in the removal suite, which when counted (planeswalkers included) totals 24 cards.
So far the deck seems to very comfortably rely on using all its removal until it gets sorin an ob online, and then the walkers can finish the game. Alternatively, you can use the secure/abbey combo for a quicker win. I've played a good deal more games than this, with a similar record, but didnt record them. The things that have proven pretty weak so far are ultimate price which seems useless in about half of my games. Languish, on the other hand, has been an absolute all-star, and seems incredible in this format thanks to the lack of big booties like rhino and tasigur. Pick the brain has been decent, as well, but I could definitely hear arguments for it being swapped out for something else, as the delerium tends to be live later than is useful (i havent played against much eldrazi, where i thought the card would shine, but even then it might be too slow).
Let me know what you think, particularly those of you who are more inclined towards true control variants.
There are too many tokens for To the Slaughter to be effective from my experience, especially when the mana base can handle Ruinous Path. Less Gideon and more six drops seems very unappealing. I also think hitting Delirium is difficult if not possible at all consistently. There are only four card types at all in the deck. I don't think that Pick the Brain is worth it at three although a legitimate sideboard option perhaps for builds that can consistently hit Delirium, Transgress plus extraction might be great against Ramp.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
The power of the deck lies in the removal suite, which when counted (planeswalkers included) totals 24 cards.
So far the deck seems to very comfortably rely on using all its removal until it gets sorin an ob online, and then the walkers can finish the game. Alternatively, you can use the secure/abbey combo for a quicker win. I've played a good deal more games than this, with a similar record, but didnt record them. The things that have proven pretty weak so far are ultimate price which seems useless in about half of my games. Languish, on the other hand, has been an absolute all-star, and seems incredible in this format thanks to the lack of big booties like rhino and tasigur. Pick the brain has been decent, as well, but I could definitely hear arguments for it being swapped out for something else, as the delerium tends to be live later than is useful (i havent played against much eldrazi, where i thought the card would shine, but even then it might be too slow).
Let me know what you think, particularly those of you who are more inclined towards true control variants.
I don't really understand how Ultimate Price could be bad...the match ups you listed that you had wins against are all match ups where ulti price should shine..
It provides us with a solid 3 drop curve I felt was lacking from the deck.
I read that article as well, it seems pretty good, but I really see no reason to run 4 transgress...im gonna stick with Gideon and Kalitas. I havent had any trouble beating most of the likely deck lists, so I see no reason to change. let me know how your games go!
It provides us with a solid 3 drop curve I felt was lacking from the deck.
I read that article as well, it seems pretty good, but I really see no reason to run 4 transgress...im gonna stick with Gideon and Kalitas. I havent had any trouble beating most of the likely deck lists, so I see no reason to change. let me know how your games go!
No where did I state that I won't be running Gideon or Kalitas, on the contrary, I'm still running 3 and 2 respectively. I think that combination is too good to pass up and fits into our game plan. If we can hit any 1 or 2 drop with Wasteland strangler it's a guaranteed 2 for 1.
Did I win those games? Yeah most of them, but it could have been much better had I a removal spell that had fewer blind spots.
Ya but no removal is perfect. We have other options to play along side Ultimate Price, and at 2 cmc I think it fits nicely alongside Declaration in Stone. Grasp of Darkness might be strictly better but testing and time will tell.
It provides us with a solid 3 drop curve I felt was lacking from the deck.
I read that article as well, it seems pretty good, but I really see no reason to run 4 transgress...im gonna stick with Gideon and Kalitas. I havent had any trouble beating most of the likely deck lists, so I see no reason to change. let me know how your games go!
No where did I state that I won't be running Gideon or Kalitas, on the contrary, I'm still running 3 and 2 respectively. I think that combination is too good to pass up and fits into our game plan. If we can hit any 1 or 2 drop with Wasteland strangler it's a guaranteed 2 for 1.
Would you mind posting your list? Curious to know what ur dropping to fit the stranglers and transgress, if you feel like sharing.
My list is a bit different than those posted so far:
1) I think Accursed Witch fits in here great. If she lives, she's swinging for 4. If she dies? Her curse becomes attached to your opponent, stealing your their life points for your own. So even if she gets caught up in a Languish, it's no biggie.
2) Mage-Ring Network and Brain in a Jar are here for mana conservation and to pump up your Secure the Wastes/flip your Westvale Abbey. That could really ramp up your win condition, ending things a lot faster than many Control decks can.
3) I'm also thinking about maybe adding in Elusive Tormentor who is a fun tricky card which could also throw a few cards out for delirium if I wanna hit it.
It needs some polish and a sideboard but I think the bones are solid. Thoughts?
How many of each main vs side?
Right now I've got 2 durress in the main
2 Transgress and 3 IO in the side.
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Archangel Ayacyn
Non creatures
2 Dead weight
2 Grasp of Darkness
3 Declaration of Stone
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Read the Bones
3 Oath of Gideon
2 Secure the Wastes
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
7 Swamp
4 Plains
4 Caves of Kolios
4 Shambling Vents
2 Westvale Abbey
4 Evolving Wilds
Let me start off by saying the mana was conceived on the spot. It definitely is unpolished. But this is where I am starting as far as a base for a decklist. Oath/Gideon/Secure was already a proven strategy before this rotation, and with Westvale Abbey being yet another payoff for using tokens. Since we do have Avacyn, Secure the Wastes, Ormendahl, Profane Prince, and Gideon as ways we can end games quickly, I felt one Sorin was plenty. The list has modest lifegain, early value threats and strong removal for support. I am going for using removal that is non biased due to the new format, But I have considered To the Slaughter and Ruinous path.
I'm actually considering running 1 Linvala main and siding my 2 Avacyns. Linvala is just great at closing out long games where Avacyns toolbox seems to be matchup specific - I haven't been able to test her out so any opinions on this are very welcome!
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
Kalitas--3/4=good blocker +Lifegain. If he sticks, your removal nets you dudes.
Avacyn--even without the flip--flash makes her so powerful. You can block with whoever you have and have indestructible on board, you can surprise block and kill their guys, the flip is nice.
Avacyn+Kalitas=silly.
I admittedly haven't tested Ayli, but I'd rather have a kill spell than a little creature with death touch.
Here's my finalized list besides the sideboard:
4x Forsaken Sanctuary
4x Shambling Vent
4x Caves of Koilos
2x Westvale Abbey
1x Blighted Fen
6x Swamp
5x Plains
Planeswalkers (8)
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
4x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Enchantments (3)
3x Dead Weight
Sorceries / Instants (21)
2x Languish
4x Declaration in Stone
2x Anguished Unmaking
2x Ruinous Path
3x Read the Bones
3x Grasp of Darkness
4x Secure the Wastes
1x Planar Outburst
3x Flaying Tendrils
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Linvala, the Preserver
3x Infinite Obliteration
3x Transgress the Mind
1x Read the Bones
2x Duress
1x Anguished Unmaking
Stasis Snare is only worth running if you expect tons of Reality Smasher in your metagame. Silkwrap is just outclassed by Declaration. And I don't think I would ever cast a Quarantine Field with Anguished Unmaking and Dromoka's Command around, especially when a majority of your targets are creatures and not noncreature permanents.
I think going into game 1 with minimal creatures and more control is probably a decent spot to be in, reevaluate after game 1
Murderous Cut won't be an option sadly
2 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
4 Read the Bones
4 Languish
4 To the Slaughter
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Secure the Wastes
2 Ultimate Price
1 Stasis Snare
4 Anguished Unmaking
3 Pick the Brain
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Shambling Vent
3 Caves of Koilos
8 Swamp
5 Plains
2 Westvale Abbey
1 Ruinous Path
4 Hallowed Moonlight
3 Infinite Obliteration
3 Stasis Snare
4 Duress
The deck is incredibly strong and out of the last 14 games I've put up 11 wins.
Wins:
Esper drragons: 2
Mirror: 1
R/B vampires: 2
white weenie: 1
b/w allies: 1
g/w counters: 1
g/w company: 1
monoblack zombies:1
season's Past combo: 1
Losses:
Red Eldrazi: 1
Naya coco allies: 1
fevered visions control: 1
The power of the deck lies in the removal suite, which when counted (planeswalkers included) totals 24 cards.
So far the deck seems to very comfortably rely on using all its removal until it gets sorin an ob online, and then the walkers can finish the game. Alternatively, you can use the secure/abbey combo for a quicker win. I've played a good deal more games than this, with a similar record, but didnt record them. The things that have proven pretty weak so far are ultimate price which seems useless in about half of my games. Languish, on the other hand, has been an absolute all-star, and seems incredible in this format thanks to the lack of big booties like rhino and tasigur. Pick the brain has been decent, as well, but I could definitely hear arguments for it being swapped out for something else, as the delerium tends to be live later than is useful (i havent played against much eldrazi, where i thought the card would shine, but even then it might be too slow).
Let me know what you think, particularly those of you who are more inclined towards true control variants.
I don't really understand how Ultimate Price could be bad...the match ups you listed that you had wins against are all match ups where ulti price should shine..
i dunno if I could go without Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, he wins way too many games for me.
It provides us with a solid 3 drop curve I felt was lacking from the deck.
I read that article as well, it seems pretty good, but I really see no reason to run 4 transgress...im gonna stick with Gideon and Kalitas. I havent had any trouble beating most of the likely deck lists, so I see no reason to change. let me know how your games go!
No where did I state that I won't be running Gideon or Kalitas, on the contrary, I'm still running 3 and 2 respectively. I think that combination is too good to pass up and fits into our game plan. If we can hit any 1 or 2 drop with Wasteland strangler it's a guaranteed 2 for 1.
Did I win those games? Yeah most of them, but it could have been much better had I a removal spell that had fewer blind spots.
Ya but no removal is perfect. We have other options to play along side Ultimate Price, and at 2 cmc I think it fits nicely alongside Declaration in Stone. Grasp of Darkness might be strictly better but testing and time will tell.
Would you mind posting your list? Curious to know what ur dropping to fit the stranglers and transgress, if you feel like sharing.
3x Caves of Koilos
4x Forsaken Sanctuary
2x Mage-Ring Network
4x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
6x Swamp
3x Westvale Abbey
4x Declaration in Stone
2x Languish
4x Read the Bones
3x Transgress the Mind
Instant (9)
3x Anguished Unmaking
3x Secure the Wastes
3x To the Slaughter
2x Brain in a Jar
Creature (4)
4x Accursed Witch
Planeswalker (6)
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
My list is a bit different than those posted so far:
1) I think Accursed Witch fits in here great. If she lives, she's swinging for 4. If she dies? Her curse becomes attached to your opponent, stealing your their life points for your own. So even if she gets caught up in a Languish, it's no biggie.
2) Mage-Ring Network and Brain in a Jar are here for mana conservation and to pump up your Secure the Wastes/flip your Westvale Abbey. That could really ramp up your win condition, ending things a lot faster than many Control decks can.
3) I'm also thinking about maybe adding in Elusive Tormentor who is a fun tricky card which could also throw a few cards out for delirium if I wanna hit it.
It needs some polish and a sideboard but I think the bones are solid. Thoughts?
WUBEsper ControlWUB
I'm not sure why you would play Silkwrap over Declaration in Stone. Is it a budgetary thing, or do you have Delerium spells to turn on in your SB?