The way I see it is that the things green can give you over blue as the splash color is Dromoka's Command and Collected Company which are both very strong cards. That being said Dromoka's is at best in a deck with 3/x and 4/x creatures and Collected Company likes to be in decks with more 3 drops. As others have already said splashing blue for Reflector Mage and Dragonlord Ojutai (as well as counter magic in the sideboard) gives the deck more strength against other creature decks as well as midrange/control decks.
I had a couple of things I've noted from testing in general and how the deck feels.
1.) Westvale Abbey, isn't that good in our deck. A lot of people are claiming this card will be played in every deck, and every time I drew it I was disappointed with it. Creatures don't benefit from Always Watching and five mana is a lot to pay for a 1/1. We'll almost never flip this guy also. So I'll end up cutting this card most likely.
2.) Thraben Inspector is a lot better than he seems. A 1/2 for W doesn't sound the best, but his ability to quickly become a 2/3 puts him out of range of Kozliek's Return and Flaying Tendrils quickly. In addition his clue token, makes for a decent top deck lategame as he replaces himself. I think every Human deck should be running 4 of this guy.
3.) Declaration in Stone is an insane in this deck. Combined with Reflector Mage (Insane as well) it makes it difficult for our opponents to stick threats that can block well against our creatures. I want to play more copies over Silkwrap, but Silkwrap helps protect our Always Watching from Dromoka's Command, and vice versa. I want to play at least one more copy, so I may drop down to 23 lands to fit the other one in.
4.) Kytheon may not be the one drop we want to play. Now I know it seems almost ridiculous to even consider that, he literally does amazing things, and is probably one of the best Savannah Lions ever printed in MtG. He doesn't play nice however with Gidoen, Ally of Zendikar which could be a huge component in the deck moving forward, specifically in the Sideboard.
Hello fellow humans. I ordered all the cards and have been playing on cockatrice in the meanwhile with a huge amount of success. I've been convinced by these little guys that I'm here to stay!
I chose to go the more aggressive route with 8x Savannah Lions for an almost guaranteed turn 1 play. I've found that it's really important to have a creature pressuring by turn 2 especially against multi-colored decks whom are now relying on Evolving Wilds and being fast punishes that. I might even go to 10 similar to Luis-Scott Vargas' list - which is where I got the idea to play Humans following my prerelease.
I'm honestly torn between Ojutai and Avacyn. Both offer a great package even though I have yet to successfully flip Avacyn. Avacayn's biggest significance has been her unflipped side more than anything. I actually originally ran 3 but I often found myself needing Ojutai's hexproof and last ability more than Avacyn.
Ojutai's Command's recursion and the rest of its suite is very rewarding for grindy matchups like RG Ramp.
Like others have said, Kozilek's Return is back breaking. I've learned to combat this with Negate and Ojutai's Command but it's still very haunting.
I've seen some great points all around, I hope we keep up the discussion!
Hello fellow humans. I ordered all the cards and have been playing on cockatrice in the meanwhile with a huge amount of success. I've been convinced by these little guys that I'm here to stay!
I chose to go the more aggressive route with 8x Savannah Lions for an almost guaranteed turn 1 play. I've found that it's really important to have a creature pressuring by turn 2 especially against multi-colored decks whom are now relying on Evolving Wilds and being fast punishes that. I might even go to 10 similar to Luis-Scott Vargas' list - which is where I got the idea to play Humans following my prerelease.
I'm honestly torn between Ojutai and Avacyn. Both offer a great package even though I have yet to successfully flip Avacyn. Avacayn's biggest significance has been her unflipped side more than anything. I actually originally ran 3 but I often found myself needing Ojutai's hexproof and last ability more than Avacyn.
Ojutai's Command's recursion and the rest of its suite is very rewarding for grindy matchups like RG Ramp.
Like others have said, Kozilek's Return is back breaking. I've learned to combat this with Negate and Ojutai's Command but it's still very haunting.
I've seen some great points all around, I hope we keep up the discussion!
You currently only have 58 cards in your main deck (8 spells, where it says 9 etc). So I assume you are missing the last two savannah lions? I've tested some with Ojutai's command and was unfortunately not too impressed by it, and prefer a mix of Eerie Interlude and Dispel instead.
Are there any particular matchups you struggle with, with your current list?
It was 5am in the morning so I was half asleep writing this up but its fixed now. Thanks!
You're right, Ojutai's Command isn't that great of an answer to sweepers and I may just stick to Negate. If not for sweepers, Ojutai's Command (specifically modes 1 and 3) have been really good against midrange matchups but I will likely bring it down to 2 because 4 mana has been a bit harsh. I originally had some number of dispels but Negate just has a wider application.
Eerie Interlude has raised an eyebrow or two in my search to combat sweepers and I'm willing to test it. As other have said, it's especially strong with a set of Thraben Inspector's instead of Savannah Lion. I'm not sure yet if sacrificing a 2/1's aggressiveness for a 1/2's draw power is worth it yet but I have definitely found myself falling victim to Tendrils and Kozilek's and have been victim to running out of steam - both of which Thraben is good against. The way I see it is if I'm running Eerie, I need to run Thraben not just for the value but for a total of 16 humans with ETB effects - Knight being the least impactful. Another thing is Eerie would reset Consul's renown which is probably the only downside.
As for the Envoy's, lauriv hit the nail on the head as for why I run them over Hunter.
So far I've played against Vampire Madness, RG Ramp, RG(?) Planeswalkers, GW Enchantments, Junk Midrange, WB Tokens, and Collected Bant. The meta has been so up in the air so I'm not sure what's hip anymore besides RDW. I struggled the most against Junk Midrange as they have so much removal and Kalitas is especially nasty.
@lauriv
10 sources certainly has been enough because blue is only need on turn 3 and on.
Eerie Interlude has raised an eyebrow or two in my search to combat sweepers and I'm willing to test it.
Take it from those of us who have tested it: the card is insane and should be in everyone's decks.
The meta has been so up in the air so I'm not sure what's hip anymore besides RDW
From what I've seen on the internet and what I've played against, these are the most popular decks atm:
RG Ramp
BW Control
RB Madness (which imo is still not a great deck but people will keep playing it)
GW Aristocrats with Westvale Abbey (it seems to be more popular than the GB version because of Secure the Wastes)
Red Eldrazi
Us
Some form of Company, probably GW.
Edit: Oh, Jund too. I don't think it's that great either because of its wonky mana, but people might be able to make it work.
Hello fellow humans. I ordered all the cards and have been playing on cockatrice in the meanwhile with a huge amount of success. I've been convinced by these little guys that I'm here to stay!
I chose to go the more aggressive route with 8x Savannah Lions for an almost guaranteed turn 1 play. I've found that it's really important to have a creature pressuring by turn 2 especially against multi-colored decks whom are now relying on Evolving Wilds and being fast punishes that. I might even go to 10 similar to Luis-Scott Vargas' list - which is where I got the idea to play Humans following my prerelease.
I'm honestly torn between Ojutai and Avacyn. Both offer a great package even though I have yet to successfully flip Avacyn. Avacayn's biggest significance has been her unflipped side more than anything. I actually originally ran 3 but I often found myself needing Ojutai's hexproof and last ability more than Avacyn.
Ojutai's Command's recursion and the rest of its suite is very rewarding for grindy matchups like RG Ramp.
Like others have said, Kozilek's Return is back breaking. I've learned to combat this with Negate and Ojutai's Command but it's still very haunting.
I've seen some great points all around, I hope we keep up the discussion!
Edit: Updated deck list to 60 cards!
I LOVE this list. In fact, I might steal it and make a few mods :cD
This is my list as it stands for SCG Baltimore! I am confident in it's ability to pack an early game punch and round it off with Archangel Avacyn. She is going to be a major key in comeback finishers and many victories I imagine. I personally was not sure of a better intentional trigger than Angelic Purge. Any thoughts?
The list I'm testing right now is very "Counter Rebels" style. It's a fun little list. I'm not on a sideboard yet, but it will have Archangel Avacyn and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in the board somewhere.
Essence Flux is really good. Like, insane in the membrane good. Archangel is the only non-Human, but it's really good with Always Watching. Dragonlord Ojutai is really good out of the sideboard as well. I had that and Archangel Avacyn in the original list, but it made my Thalia's Lieutenants a little worse in game one. This deck isn't super super explosive, but it is incredibly resilient and it has some really crazy lines where you play 1 drop, Lieutenant, 1 drop with negate mana up and just run them over. Also, blinking Thalia's Lieutenant is pretty much insane.
The list I'm testing right now is very "Counter Rebels" style. It's a fun little list. I'm not on a sideboard yet, but it will have Archangel Avacyn and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in the board somewhere.
Essence Flux is really good. Like, insane in the membrane good. Archangel is the only non-Human, but it's really good with Always Watching. Dragonlord Ojutai is really good out of the sideboard as well. I had that and Archangel Avacyn in the original list, but it made my Thalia's Lieutenants a little worse in game one. This deck isn't super super explosive, but it is incredibly resilient and it has some really crazy lines where you play 1 drop, Lieutenant, 1 drop with negate mana up and just run them over. Also, blinking Thalia's Lieutenant is pretty much insane.
I dig your list a lot, it's clean and seems solid. Do any testing with Dragonlord? Is this deck supposed to be super fast and aggressive or is it more tempo/midrangey ? Cheers!
The list I'm testing right now is very "Counter Rebels" style. It's a fun little list. I'm not on a sideboard yet, but it will have Archangel Avacyn and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in the board somewhere.
Essence Flux is really good. Like, insane in the membrane good. Archangel is the only non-Human, but it's really good with Always Watching. Dragonlord Ojutai is really good out of the sideboard as well. I had that and Archangel Avacyn in the original list, but it made my Thalia's Lieutenants a little worse in game one. This deck isn't super super explosive, but it is incredibly resilient and it has some really crazy lines where you play 1 drop, Lieutenant, 1 drop with negate mana up and just run them over. Also, blinking Thalia's Lieutenant is pretty much insane.
I dig your list a lot, it's clean and seems solid. Do any testing with Dragonlord? Is this deck supposed to be super fast and aggressive or is it more tempo/midrangey ? Cheers!
I tested with Dragonlord. He is good, but he makes your Lieutenants weaker so I have him slotted in the board. The list is very tempo oriented and you arent trying to go very wide. You really want to put 2-3 guys in play and ride them to the finish line and its relatively easy to do with Negates and Blinks. It does have some really explosive draws that center around blinking your Lieutenant and it can kill relatively quickly.
The list I'm testing right now is very "Counter Rebels" style. It's a fun little list. I'm not on a sideboard yet, but it will have Archangel Avacyn and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in the board somewhere.
Essence Flux is really good. Like, insane in the membrane good. Archangel is the only non-Human, but it's really good with Always Watching. Dragonlord Ojutai is really good out of the sideboard as well. I had that and Archangel Avacyn in the original list, but it made my Thalia's Lieutenants a little worse in game one. This deck isn't super super explosive, but it is incredibly resilient and it has some really crazy lines where you play 1 drop, Lieutenant, 1 drop with negate mana up and just run them over. Also, blinking Thalia's Lieutenant is pretty much insane.
I dig your list a lot, it's clean and seems solid. Do any testing with Dragonlord? Is this deck supposed to be super fast and aggressive or is it more tempo/midrangey ? Cheers!
I tested with Dragonlord. He is good, but he makes your Lieutenants weaker so I have him slotted in the board. The list is very tempo oriented and you arent trying to go very wide. You really want to put 2-3 guys in play and ride them to the finish line and its relatively easy to do with Negates and Blinks. It does have some really explosive draws that center around blinking your Lieutenant and it can kill relatively quickly.
Awesome man! I haven't had a chance to test yet, and I really like this archetype, but I don't want to play purely aggro this format, so something more tempo/Midrange oriented is what I'm thinking, and I think the U/W version of this deck is a solid shot at that.
If you don't draw Thalia's Lieutenant or Always Watching she's a huge liability, and that's not where we want to be. Archangel of Tithes plays way better with Always Watching and basically stops races in their tracks.
They could easily kill something while you don't have 3 mana and Eerie in hand. With how many decks are running instant speed removal and how big our creatures are, it's bound to happen.
Edit: I feel like I should explain in detail why I don't like Avacyn. Her indestructible clause is sweet. Being a 4/4 Flying Vigilance is pretty cool (though she gets blocked by Archangel of Tithes and World Breaker). She's still a great card. I have two problems with her, however:
1. 5CMC is pretty high. Sigarda and Ojutai dodge all sorts of removal and have huge upsides to playing them with almost 0 downsides, therefore they're worth playing imo.
2. She deals three damage to everything when she flips. Not two damage, three. A single Always Watching will not save the majority of your creatures. A single Thalia's Lieutenant will not save the majority of your creatures. The following all die when she flips even if you have an Always Watching or a Thalia's Lieutenant that you cast onto a big board:
Dragon Hunter
Expedition Envoy
Kytheon (if you don't have 2W up)
Hanweir Militia Captain
Knight of the White Orchid
Thalia's Lieutenant if you've cast less than 3 other humans after it (which is a lot of humans)
Consul's Lieutenant
Anafenza
You must have multiple anthems in play for your creatures to survive Avacyn. I can easily see you flashing in Avacyn, having your 4/4 Thalia's Lieutenant Grasp of Darknessed (which is a huge player in the early meta) in response to the trigger and have Avacyn kill everything else on your board. That's a disaster and will very likely lose you the game.
I don't like playing cards that require me to play other good cards for them to function. I refuse to wait until I have 8 mana up so I can cast Avacyn with Eerie Interlude up. I refuse to wait until I have multiple Always Watching or Thalia's Lieutenants out before I cast her. The risk associated with her is way too high for me to even consider (and a lot of pros agree with me). Sigarda and Ojutai are both much safer (dare I say better?) options at the same CMC and Archangel of Tithes costs 1 less for even more value in our deck.
Avacyn is OK. Not great and not worth playing in the main if at all. The format WILL be prepared for her which means the decks we will be playing against will have plenty of ways to beat Avacyn, flipped or not. As for her transforming, this deck cant really recover from a second board clear and that means once she flips, we would be one removal spell away from losing.
I think a lot of your scenarios are dream examples and in reality a lot of the time Avacyn will be a blank because you have no good reason to cast her. That is a problem in this deck.
Avacyn is great, and probably one of the best cards in the format. That doesnt mean she should be played in this deck though, and if you want to play avacyn I recommend something else...
Could we work Pious Evangel and Cutthroat into the deck? I am thinking we can play a heavy lifegain strategy in the build, because there aren't too many decks that can generate explosive attacks.
Here's the dream:
T1: Inspector. T2: Hidden Dragonslayer T3: Always Watching. T4: Stuff. Turn 5 or 6: Drana. Turn 7: Odric. Attack with flying lifelinkers with vigilance... could be sweet.
I was thinking 2 Cutthroat because it can help us stay way ahead in life after a board wipe. I feel like I can take a few beatings during combat (no blocking) then have a bunch of lifelinking creatures who might also have first strike and vigilance.
Love the thread too...looking forward to doing some blue/white human shenanigans...anyone considered Dromoka Warrior? I know spots are filling up quick...so many good white weenies...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I hope to have such a death—lying in triumph upon the broken bodies of those who slew me."
—Radha, Keldon warlord
I see your point but if your board is full you would just keep her in hand waiting for a wrath or just a good profit block,
So she's literally uncastable if you have a board state? Why would I play that over Sigard or Ojutai, who can add to my board and make it better instead of killing it?
even when they kill your board later with avacyn you get a 6/5 flying left in the board wich is not a bad situacion to be because you probably had killed all their creatures too.
No, that's an AWFUL situation. The decks with removal (like Jund, Orzhov Control etc) do not have many creatures that die to Avacyn (since Kalitas, Mindwrack etc are all 4+ toughness). It's really only us and the Company decks that get wrecked by Avacyn.
And what's even worse is those decks have a lot of removal that can deal with her. If they point a Grasp at one of your creatures and then follow up with an Ob Nixilis or something of the sort you probably just lost the game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern URW Control WBG Abzan GRW Burn
EDH GR Rosheen Meanderer
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
dragonlord ojutai + always watching is all u really need...
This is what I would start with in both splashes.
3x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Duskwatch Recruiter
2x Veteran Cathar
4x Bygone Bishop
4x Tireless Tracker
3x Archangel of Tithes
4x Collected Company
3x Dromoka's Command
2x Always Watching
Land (23)
1x Westvale Abbey
4x Canopy Vista
4x Fortified Village
10x Plains
4x Forest
4x Dragon Hunter
3x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1x Town Gossipmonger
4x Consul's Lieutenant
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Reflector Mage
2x Archangel of Tithes
2x Dragonlord Ojutai
4x Always Watching
2x Silkwrap
2x Declaration in Stone
Lands: 24
13x Plains
2x Island
4x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
1x Westvale Abbey
4 Archangel of Tithes
4 Consul's Lieutenant
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
4 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Reflector Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Always Watching
3 Silkwrap
2 Declaration in Stone
Lands: 24
2 Island
2 Meandering River
11 Plains
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
1 Westvale Abbey
I had a couple of things I've noted from testing in general and how the deck feels.
1.) Westvale Abbey, isn't that good in our deck. A lot of people are claiming this card will be played in every deck, and every time I drew it I was disappointed with it. Creatures don't benefit from Always Watching and five mana is a lot to pay for a 1/1. We'll almost never flip this guy also. So I'll end up cutting this card most likely.
2.) Thraben Inspector is a lot better than he seems. A 1/2 for W doesn't sound the best, but his ability to quickly become a 2/3 puts him out of range of Kozliek's Return and Flaying Tendrils quickly. In addition his clue token, makes for a decent top deck lategame as he replaces himself. I think every Human deck should be running 4 of this guy.
3.) Declaration in Stone is an insane in this deck. Combined with Reflector Mage (Insane as well) it makes it difficult for our opponents to stick threats that can block well against our creatures. I want to play more copies over Silkwrap, but Silkwrap helps protect our Always Watching from Dromoka's Command, and vice versa. I want to play at least one more copy, so I may drop down to 23 lands to fit the other one in.
4.) Kytheon may not be the one drop we want to play. Now I know it seems almost ridiculous to even consider that, he literally does amazing things, and is probably one of the best Savannah Lions ever printed in MtG. He doesn't play nice however with Gidoen, Ally of Zendikar which could be a huge component in the deck moving forward, specifically in the Sideboard.
Standard
WUW/U HumansUW
Modern
WBW/B TokensBW
4x Consul's Lieutenant
2x Dragon Hunter
2x Dragonlord Ojutai
4x Expedition Envoy
2x Hanweir Militia Captain
4x Knight of the White Orchid
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros Flip
4x Reflector Mage
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Always Watching
4x Declaration in Stone
Lands: 23
13x Plains
2x Island
4x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
4x Negate
2x Felidar Cub
2x Hidden Dragonslayer
4x Ojutai's Command
3x Lantern Scout
Here are some things I have noted.
I chose to go the more aggressive route with 8x Savannah Lions for an almost guaranteed turn 1 play. I've found that it's really important to have a creature pressuring by turn 2 especially against multi-colored decks whom are now relying on Evolving Wilds and being fast punishes that. I might even go to 10 similar to Luis-Scott Vargas' list - which is where I got the idea to play Humans following my prerelease.
I'm honestly torn between Ojutai and Avacyn. Both offer a great package even though I have yet to successfully flip Avacyn. Avacayn's biggest significance has been her unflipped side more than anything. I actually originally ran 3 but I often found myself needing Ojutai's hexproof and last ability more than Avacyn.
Ojutai's Command's recursion and the rest of its suite is very rewarding for grindy matchups like RG Ramp.
Like others have said, Kozilek's Return is back breaking. I've learned to combat this with Negate and Ojutai's Command but it's still very haunting.
I've seen some great points all around, I hope we keep up the discussion!
Edit: Updated deck list to 60 cards!
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
Remember that Avacyn can and will nuke your board if you let her. I find that Ojutai and Sigarda are both better fives in this deck.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
It was 5am in the morning so I was half asleep writing this up but its fixed now. Thanks!
You're right, Ojutai's Command isn't that great of an answer to sweepers and I may just stick to Negate. If not for sweepers, Ojutai's Command (specifically modes 1 and 3) have been really good against midrange matchups but I will likely bring it down to 2 because 4 mana has been a bit harsh. I originally had some number of dispels but Negate just has a wider application.
Eerie Interlude has raised an eyebrow or two in my search to combat sweepers and I'm willing to test it. As other have said, it's especially strong with a set of Thraben Inspector's instead of Savannah Lion. I'm not sure yet if sacrificing a 2/1's aggressiveness for a 1/2's draw power is worth it yet but I have definitely found myself falling victim to Tendrils and Kozilek's and have been victim to running out of steam - both of which Thraben is good against. The way I see it is if I'm running Eerie, I need to run Thraben not just for the value but for a total of 16 humans with ETB effects - Knight being the least impactful. Another thing is Eerie would reset Consul's renown which is probably the only downside.
As for the Envoy's, lauriv hit the nail on the head as for why I run them over Hunter.
So far I've played against Vampire Madness, RG Ramp, RG(?) Planeswalkers, GW Enchantments, Junk Midrange, WB Tokens, and Collected Bant. The meta has been so up in the air so I'm not sure what's hip anymore besides RDW. I struggled the most against Junk Midrange as they have so much removal and Kalitas is especially nasty.
@lauriv
10 sources certainly has been enough because blue is only need on turn 3 and on.
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
Take it from those of us who have tested it: the card is insane and should be in everyone's decks.
From what I've seen on the internet and what I've played against, these are the most popular decks atm:
RG Ramp
BW Control
RB Madness (which imo is still not a great deck but people will keep playing it)
GW Aristocrats with Westvale Abbey (it seems to be more popular than the GB version because of Secure the Wastes)
Red Eldrazi
Us
Some form of Company, probably GW.
Edit: Oh, Jund too. I don't think it's that great either because of its wonky mana, but people might be able to make it work.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I LOVE this list. In fact, I might steal it and make a few mods :cD
4 Consul's Lieutenant
4 Dragon Hunter
2 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Sigarda, Heron's Grace
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Thraben Inspector
2 Eerie Interlude
2 Angelic Purge
4 Declaration in Stone
2 Canopy Vista
20 Plains
2 Eerie Interlude
3 Hallowed Moonlight
4 Surge of Righteousness
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Angelic Purge
This is my list as it stands for SCG Baltimore! I am confident in it's ability to pack an early game punch and round it off with Archangel Avacyn. She is going to be a major key in comeback finishers and many victories I imagine. I personally was not sure of a better intentional trigger than Angelic Purge. Any thoughts?
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
2 Island
4 Prairie Stream
4 Port Town
1 Meandering River
2 Westvale Abbey
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Hanweir Militia Captain
4 Reflector Mage
3 Archangel of Tithes
3 Negate
2 Ojutai's Command
2 Always Watching
4 Declaration in Stone
Essence Flux is really good. Like, insane in the membrane good. Archangel is the only non-Human, but it's really good with Always Watching. Dragonlord Ojutai is really good out of the sideboard as well. I had that and Archangel Avacyn in the original list, but it made my Thalia's Lieutenants a little worse in game one. This deck isn't super super explosive, but it is incredibly resilient and it has some really crazy lines where you play 1 drop, Lieutenant, 1 drop with negate mana up and just run them over. Also, blinking Thalia's Lieutenant is pretty much insane.
thalia's giving counters....should be okay
I dig your list a lot, it's clean and seems solid. Do any testing with Dragonlord? Is this deck supposed to be super fast and aggressive or is it more tempo/midrangey ? Cheers!
I tested with Dragonlord. He is good, but he makes your Lieutenants weaker so I have him slotted in the board. The list is very tempo oriented and you arent trying to go very wide. You really want to put 2-3 guys in play and ride them to the finish line and its relatively easy to do with Negates and Blinks. It does have some really explosive draws that center around blinking your Lieutenant and it can kill relatively quickly.
Awesome man! I haven't had a chance to test yet, and I really like this archetype, but I don't want to play purely aggro this format, so something more tempo/Midrange oriented is what I'm thinking, and I think the U/W version of this deck is a solid shot at that.
If you don't draw Thalia's Lieutenant or Always Watching she's a huge liability, and that's not where we want to be. Archangel of Tithes plays way better with Always Watching and basically stops races in their tracks.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Edit: I feel like I should explain in detail why I don't like Avacyn. Her indestructible clause is sweet. Being a 4/4 Flying Vigilance is pretty cool (though she gets blocked by Archangel of Tithes and World Breaker). She's still a great card. I have two problems with her, however:
1. 5CMC is pretty high. Sigarda and Ojutai dodge all sorts of removal and have huge upsides to playing them with almost 0 downsides, therefore they're worth playing imo.
2. She deals three damage to everything when she flips. Not two damage, three. A single Always Watching will not save the majority of your creatures. A single Thalia's Lieutenant will not save the majority of your creatures. The following all die when she flips even if you have an Always Watching or a Thalia's Lieutenant that you cast onto a big board:
You must have multiple anthems in play for your creatures to survive Avacyn. I can easily see you flashing in Avacyn, having your 4/4 Thalia's Lieutenant Grasp of Darknessed (which is a huge player in the early meta) in response to the trigger and have Avacyn kill everything else on your board. That's a disaster and will very likely lose you the game.
I don't like playing cards that require me to play other good cards for them to function. I refuse to wait until I have 8 mana up so I can cast Avacyn with Eerie Interlude up. I refuse to wait until I have multiple Always Watching or Thalia's Lieutenants out before I cast her. The risk associated with her is way too high for me to even consider (and a lot of pros agree with me). Sigarda and Ojutai are both much safer (dare I say better?) options at the same CMC and Archangel of Tithes costs 1 less for even more value in our deck.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I think a lot of your scenarios are dream examples and in reality a lot of the time Avacyn will be a blank because you have no good reason to cast her. That is a problem in this deck.
Avacyn is great, and probably one of the best cards in the format. That doesnt mean she should be played in this deck though, and if you want to play avacyn I recommend something else...
A few questions, thoughts:
Could we work Pious Evangel and Cutthroat into the deck? I am thinking we can play a heavy lifegain strategy in the build, because there aren't too many decks that can generate explosive attacks.
Here's the dream:
T1: Inspector. T2: Hidden Dragonslayer T3: Always Watching. T4: Stuff. Turn 5 or 6: Drana. Turn 7: Odric. Attack with flying lifelinkers with vigilance... could be sweet.
I was thinking 2 Cutthroat because it can help us stay way ahead in life after a board wipe. I feel like I can take a few beatings during combat (no blocking) then have a bunch of lifelinking creatures who might also have first strike and vigilance.
Just a thought. Love that this thread exists.
—Radha, Keldon warlord
So she's literally uncastable if you have a board state? Why would I play that over Sigard or Ojutai, who can add to my board and make it better instead of killing it?
No, that's an AWFUL situation. The decks with removal (like Jund, Orzhov Control etc) do not have many creatures that die to Avacyn (since Kalitas, Mindwrack etc are all 4+ toughness). It's really only us and the Company decks that get wrecked by Avacyn.
And what's even worse is those decks have a lot of removal that can deal with her. If they point a Grasp at one of your creatures and then follow up with an Ob Nixilis or something of the sort you probably just lost the game.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer