Vs Bant CoCo 1-2 Loss
Okay so, this match is still IFFY on my part. G1 he got off typical Reflector Mage bounce your dude swing past for the win. G2 I ramped up really fast and was able to K's Return, Chandra 2x and Ulamog's to leave him with pretty much no chance. G3, It was close, I shouldn't have played out my 2nd Jaddi when I did, as they ate a Dec in Stone and that really sucked, not only would that have helped me stablize (by keeping 1 in hand) but it would've bought me the turn to find my 2nd R to play out one of the 2 chandra's stranded in my hand. DANG!!! My opponent thought he had it, but I rewound the match in my head and realized what I should've done and not overextended into that when the 1 Jaddi was doing fine.
Be careful with cards like World Breaker, too. I've seen GW tokens board in Dec in Stone hoping to make plays like the one you mentioned.
Yeah, I played around it this past weekend when I won the win a box (with the flu!!). My opponent was on mono white humans, and he was holding 2 cards for about 3 turns after I board wiped. The tell was there, I knew it was either a Snare or a dec in stone. It so happened he had both, and in 1 turn I had the option of playing out 2 world breakers. I didn't and held 1 back and waiting for Ulamog in order to play around a possible dec in stone. Twas a blow out for my mono white humans opponent. I didn't think my Bant CoCo opponent had drawn it since he told me earlier in chatting that he only ran 1. Well he drew the 1.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
I've been experiencing good results with my GR Ramp deck, but I'm noticing that ramp seems to have almost completely fallen out of top 8 results online. I'm worried about GR Ramp's viability for the rest of this rotation. What innovative ideas have you guys seen that you think might help revive the archetype?
I'm interested to hear responses to this too. From what I've gauged it seems like you just have to adjust for your meta. Also, we don't know what Eldritch Moon will have in terms of large things to ramp into so who knows how it'll be until rotation? (ending this post now before it becomes Rumor Mill material).
KaelKale, I have been running your ramp decks locally with great success. One thing I always seem to stumble on is my sideboard choices. I am currently running your latest version with 4 mogs, 4 breakers, and 2 DLA. Any tips on some basic sideboard choices to make? It seems like I am never sure on what I should be pulling out of the deck.
KaelKale, I have been running your ramp decks locally with great success. One thing I always seem to stumble on is my sideboard choices. I am currently running your latest version with 4 mogs, 4 breakers, and 2 DLA. Any tips on some basic sideboard choices to make? It seems like I am never sure on what I should be pulling out of the deck.
KaelKale, I have been running your ramp decks locally with great success. One thing I always seem to stumble on is my sideboard choices. I am currently running your latest version with 4 mogs, 4 breakers, and 2 DLA. Any tips on some basic sideboard choices to make? It seems like I am never sure on what I should be pulling out of the deck.
I played like a Bone Head last night, had to drop due to night PLANS!!!! YA!
Still I did weird sequences, played like a noob. went 2-2, but I know I made mistakes and am writing taking notes. I've built G/W Tokens for myself will test this match up extensively today with my friend. We are both preparing for a PPTQ at our LGS, so today is going to be a long one. Will post thoughts and results after.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Nothing real rip roaring exciting this week. I ended up going 3-0 in matches again and only dropped one game. Due to the release of EM; there was only 8 of us to play standard so I didn’t face off against any competitive T1 or T2 deck.
Short summary I went 2-0 vs Mono-Green Werewolves. Offshoot and K-Return in the mains along with Chandra kept the field clear until I could starting chaining WB’s into Ulamog.
Match 2 was against a B/R delirium type deck and I went 2-1. He was pretty confident that he was going to lose game 1 and then take the next two. Well he lost game 1 and I lost game 2; due to I kept a 2 land hand opening hand; that also had 2 Pilgrimage’s; an Explosive, K-Return and Oath. I never saw a 3 land. Played the Oath on turn 1 and drew an Offshoot, Ulamog and Explosive. I kept the Offshoot and I was dead by turn 5. Game 3 he was setting up to use Pick the Brain and I played Warping Wail and his face was in shock. It enabled me to ramp up just fine and 3 changed WB’s keeping him off of B and the game was over.
Match 3 was against a R/B Vampire deck and I won 2-0. Offshoot’s and K-Returns along with Chandra were great and I think game 1 I soaked up close to 40 damage and still finished with 11 life due to all the life gain from the Offshoot’s and Renewals. DLA put him on a 3 turn clock game two and it was over.
While I didn’t face any of the top tier decks on Friday; the power of the life gain from the Offshoots and Renewals; gave me the time I needed to dig for an answer or threat. It enabled me to use my life total as a resource so I block with the offshoot’s when I wanted and wasn’t as worried about their board state since I was able to survive until I could find the answer.
Psy
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
OK, I've got a really weird idea. It's probably not a good one, but I'd like to know exactly why. You know how people are splashing Chandra into GW Tokens decks using Oath of Nissa? What if I were to splash a Jace, Unraveler of Secrets into GR Ramp using the same technique? Would he be a good addition to the deck? Curious to hear your thoughts.
Well, he costs 5 which is a little less than Chandra, so he can be cast the round after a Nissa's Pilgrimage. He helps you get cards you need with his +1, and/or he could bounce a tough creature that you can't kill with Kozilek's Return yet.
Well, he costs 5 which is a little less than Chandra, so he can be cast the round after a Nissa's Pilgrimage. He helps you get cards you need with his +1, and/or he could bounce a tough creature that you can't kill with Kozilek's Return yet.
Not worth playing in my opinion. One of the questions you need to ask yourself is what would you cut to add them to your deck?
Also bouncing 1 creature is not something we want. If we are facing heavy agro we want to be able to clear the board and stabilize; so bouncing 1 creature doesn't help do that if you are facing 3 to 4 creatures. The card draw is nice; but I would rather play an Archive; for the one time card draw; since it can also help us ramp into our threats until you decide to pop it for the card draw.
When I look at possible cards that I might want to add to G/R Ramp; I want to make sure that it either a) helps me stabilize the board or b) helps gets me to 7 mana the quickest and c) if it is a creature; that it is something that effects the board state or has to be answered. Jace does none of these things for this deck in my opinion.
Psy
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
Hey all so after testing the G/W Tokens match up vs the current RG Ramp it's clear that it's a bad match up. In G1 we have very little ways to interact with their board and many games were I found ramp to be to slow to get going against this deck.
If Ruin in their wake actually worked as a T2 ramp source I think we'd have a huge chance of catching him and stalling their board. Maybe PSY is right, it might be better to revert back to 4 Jaddi's in the main to counter this. Another deck went as far as to MD 4 Atarkas, 4 Chandras and 4 K's Returns. This may be a viable route as well. I'm just giving the info as many playtests and it Avacyn protecting the team and blanking the 2nd half of the return is a beating.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Hey all so after testing the G/W Tokens match up vs the current RG Ramp it's clear that it's a bad match up. In G1 we have very little ways to interact with their board and many games were I found ramp to be to slow to get going against this deck.
If Ruin in their wake actually worked as a T2 ramp source I think we'd have a huge chance of catching him and stalling their board. Maybe PSY is right, it might be better to revert back to 4 Jaddi's in the main to counter this. Another deck went as far as to MD 4 Atarkas, 4 Chandras and 4 K's Returns. This may be a viable route as well. I'm just giving the info as many playtests and it Avacyn protecting the team and blanking the 2nd half of the return is a beating.
If you read Josh Dickerson's sideboard guide he did suggest bringing in 4 jaddi offshoot from the sideboard on the draw. This match up is all about us stalling them until we can windmill slam our top ends. 4 Ulamog, 4 worldbreaker, 3 (or 4) Atarka and 3-4 Chandra should be able to finish them off if we can get to them fast enough.
Is there a reason why Sylvan Advocate isn't being considered over Jaddi Offshoot? I'd think that being able to apply pressure from t2 onward against walkers would be more valuable than the life gain.
Is there a reason why Sylvan Advocate isn't being considered over Jaddi Offshoot? I'd think that being able to apply pressure from t2 onward against walkers would be more valuable than the life gain.
It is mostly due to the lifegain that the Offshoot can provide. If you can get an offshoot in play within the first few turns; it can (if not removed) gain you anywhere from 5 to 15 life pretty easily. For example if you have an Offshoot in play and then play a Renewal; you are looking at a minimum of 10 life gained that turn and 11 if you also played a land.
While the Advocate looks good on paper, since it is a 2/3 that can attack without tapping and can end up as a 4/5 pretty easy; all you really get out of it is a blocker that can block one creature. The lifegain you get with the Offshoot buys you the time needed to find your answers and threats. Now if we were also running manlands; then I would rate the Advocate higher then the Offshoot. But in the last 3 weeks to where I've been playing Offshoots; I'm 16 and 3 in games and 8-1 in matches.
Psy
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
Is there a reason why Sylvan Advocate isn't being considered over Jaddi Offshoot? I'd think that being able to apply pressure from t2 onward against walkers would be more valuable than the life gain.
It is mostly due to the lifegain that the Offshoot can provide. If you can get an offshoot in play within the first few turns; it can (if not removed) gain you anywhere from 5 to 15 life pretty easily. For example if you have an Offshoot in play and then play a Renewal; you are looking at a minimum of 10 life gained that turn and 11 if you also played a land.
While the Advocate looks good on paper, since it is a 2/3 that can attack without tapping and can end up as a 4/5 pretty easy; all you really get out of it is a blocker that can block one creature. The lifegain you get with the Offshoot buys you the time needed to find your answers and threats. Now if we were also running manlands; then I would rate the Advocate higher then the Offshoot. But in the last 3 weeks to where I've been playing Offshoots; I'm 16 and 3 in games and 8-1 in matches.
Psy
After getting crushed by bant humans, I'm reevaluating sylvan advocate. I wasn't valuing the lifegain highly because every game I'd won with jaddi offshoot were games I'm confident I would have won regardless.
Is there a reason why Sylvan Advocate isn't being considered over Jaddi Offshoot? I'd think that being able to apply pressure from t2 onward against walkers would be more valuable than the life gain.
It is mostly due to the lifegain that the Offshoot can provide. If you can get an offshoot in play within the first few turns; it can (if not removed) gain you anywhere from 5 to 15 life pretty easily. For example if you have an Offshoot in play and then play a Renewal; you are looking at a minimum of 10 life gained that turn and 11 if you also played a land.
While the Advocate looks good on paper, since it is a 2/3 that can attack without tapping and can end up as a 4/5 pretty easy; all you really get out of it is a blocker that can block one creature. The lifegain you get with the Offshoot buys you the time needed to find your answers and threats. Now if we were also running manlands; then I would rate the Advocate higher then the Offshoot. But in the last 3 weeks to where I've been playing Offshoots; I'm 16 and 3 in games and 8-1 in matches.
Psy
After getting crushed by bant humans, I'm reevaluating sylvan advocate. I wasn't valuing the lifegain highly because every game I'd won with jaddi offshoot were games I'm confident I would have won regardless.
I can honestly say over the last few weeks; playing the Offshoots in the main has won me more than a few games. I’ve had at least 3 games to where I’ve been dealt over 40 damage from the other player and I still won the game. So for me; it hasn’t just been a win more card and more a buy me time so that I can win type card.
I’ve also had the 2nd game or if it went to a 3rd game of a match; to where the other player has targeted my Offshoot over a World Breaker that I have in play with removal, due to the were tired of attacking and not doing any real damage to my life total.
It is very surprising how much life and extra turns just one Offshoot can provide; so that we can draw into our threats and get to the required 6 to 10 mana to play them.
I also do feel that Advocate is one of the best two drops in the current standard and if I was playing Bant CoCo or G/W Tokens I would be running a playset in the MD. I just feel that for the current meta Offshoots just help our deck get to our powerful end game better than the Advocates could.
Psy
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
Something that one must consider when evaluating offshoot and advocate is the life SAVED by having Advocate in play and the opponent not attacking.
Now my list plays Advocate main with Shoots SB, used to have both main, so I play them both, not either or.
I think Shoots are a stable, not to be removed from the 75, 3or4 of them, but I use Advocates over K.Rtn main because That card has disappointed me too often.
I don't have the fully list with me right now; but it is based off Joshua's original DL that was running 4 Offshoot; 4 K-Return; 4 WB and 4 Ulamog in the main.
Psy
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
That's 16 cards, and we aren't even including Explosive Vegetation. You lose the ability to run shrines and go over the top of your opponents. I tried this version and tested this for weeks, many of us did. it doesn't put up the results that the current ramp versions do atm.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Ruin In Their Wake is much, much better than Traverse.
I run 1 wastes, 3 evolving wilds and 2 oaths (trying to get two more).
The argument is that the deck has so many ways to turn on Ruin In Their Wake. In the worst case you use the first one to fetch the Wastes; in this case you just paid one extra mana over a Traverse for the same effect.
In all other cases the land comes directly into play which is MUCH better than Traverse. Normally off the first Explosive Vegetation you can throw in the Wastes as well. Seeing it every game is not really a problem. I still have enough spots for 4 shrines and sanctums.
I spent a few days using Traverse but found it completely dead. It doesn't ramp you, the delirium is rarely relevant, it is almost worse than playing an evolving wilds. I don't need an extra land sitting in my hand, I need it in PLAY.
I also want to echo an earlier comment. Oath of Nissa is actually not a great early play. The best use is to hold it until you know if you will need it hit your first ramp options if your draws are poor. Otherwise, save it for later to dig for a threat when you need them.
That's 16 cards, and we aren't even including Explosive Vegetation. You lose the ability to run shrines and go over the top of your opponents. I tried this version and tested this for weeks, many of us did. it doesn't put up the results that the current ramp versions do atm.
That is my impression/experience as well when trying to run ruin in their wake, getting to 10 lands is harder than it seems. Shrines often provide those additional 2 mana that one needs to get to 10. Later in the game the difference between 8 and 10 mana could be several turns.
RitW has greater access to red mana so you statistically have greater access to red mana if you like red removal; volley, roast as well as playing K.Rtn on time, which I have not read a lot of people complaining about.
you're not going to find anyone from deterring your testing process. I think if you go back a few pages you'll see a lot of us talking about the success and the eventual molding of the meta game into what it is. At the start os SOI standard, I tried a deck that had 4 Ulvenwald Hydra's, 4 World Breaker's and 2 Atarks as my go to threats. What wound up happening is that B/W control and Seasons Past decks started being able to beat ramp due to not being able to go over the top of what they were doing. Sure a 12/12 hydra was good but it got chumped block and ultimate price really did the hydra in. Also, despite being a turn faster, you still needed to take a turn off to pop off a K's return, which meant you still targeted T5 as your Breaker + K's Return combo wipe the board turn.
Fast forward to today's meta game. Ramp still isn't "great" is okay, and it does has some polarizing match ups, for example:
Grixis control is completely unable to deal with us unless we brick HARD and they draw gold after SB. Pre SB they cannot beat Ulamog.
Humans made it necessary to take that 3rd turn off, so even though ramping to 3 on T2 is good (after setting the darn card up with 12 other cards to merely support it) you still had to be able to make to T5 consistently. Nissa's Pilgrimage is much better at making sure the deck hits it's land drops and is overall really good when spell mastery is on.
The current ramp decks are good, not great, but you have to tune the deck for the meta you're expecting. Right now?
It's G/W Tokens, Humans, Bant Humans, B/W Control (on the Decline but still good) and Bant CoCo. 4 of those decks punish you for not having a T3 play that interacts and the only way to beat those are by using Flyers or going to 3-4 Ulamogs and exiling their most annoying permanents.
Decks we crush?
Grixis, B/W Control, Esper Dragons, and any kind of Midrange deck that relies on creatures, decks like Jund and Naya are favorable match ups. All of the decks utilize Gideon are rough due to Gideon coming down 4 and him looking at you and asking "You going to answer me, If not Take 7, FOR ZENDIKAR!!!". Like no joke, that card alone will beat you. All ramp players have faced the dreaded T4 Gideon, make a token pass.
So....that's why many of us went to Josh's lists because they actually work better than what we tried, and we tried really hard man. To be clear there are 2 distinct lists Josh came up with, one for a humans/aggro meta and the other is set up to have a better G1 against the field/meta. I have run his 2nd list to much success but G/W Tokens feels like they need to have a rough draw, and even then Gideon, into Gideon, into whatever is a beating.
Yeah, I played around it this past weekend when I won the win a box (with the flu!!). My opponent was on mono white humans, and he was holding 2 cards for about 3 turns after I board wiped. The tell was there, I knew it was either a Snare or a dec in stone. It so happened he had both, and in 1 turn I had the option of playing out 2 world breakers. I didn't and held 1 back and waiting for Ulamog in order to play around a possible dec in stone. Twas a blow out for my mono white humans opponent. I didn't think my Bant CoCo opponent had drawn it since he told me earlier in chatting that he only ran 1. Well he drew the 1.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
http://articles.mtgcardmarket.com/all-in-one-sideboarding-guide-to-standard-ramp-part-2/
http://articles.mtgcardmarket.com/all-in-one-sideboarding-guide-to-standard-ramp-part-1/
Played Prison because it looked fun, Ramp is still perfectly well positioned in the meta
Still I did weird sequences, played like a noob. went 2-2, but I know I made mistakes and am writing taking notes. I've built G/W Tokens for myself will test this match up extensively today with my friend. We are both preparing for a PPTQ at our LGS, so today is going to be a long one. Will post thoughts and results after.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Short summary I went 2-0 vs Mono-Green Werewolves. Offshoot and K-Return in the mains along with Chandra kept the field clear until I could starting chaining WB’s into Ulamog.
Match 2 was against a B/R delirium type deck and I went 2-1. He was pretty confident that he was going to lose game 1 and then take the next two. Well he lost game 1 and I lost game 2; due to I kept a 2 land hand opening hand; that also had 2 Pilgrimage’s; an Explosive, K-Return and Oath. I never saw a 3 land. Played the Oath on turn 1 and drew an Offshoot, Ulamog and Explosive. I kept the Offshoot and I was dead by turn 5. Game 3 he was setting up to use Pick the Brain and I played Warping Wail and his face was in shock. It enabled me to ramp up just fine and 3 changed WB’s keeping him off of B and the game was over.
Match 3 was against a R/B Vampire deck and I won 2-0. Offshoot’s and K-Returns along with Chandra were great and I think game 1 I soaked up close to 40 damage and still finished with 11 life due to all the life gain from the Offshoot’s and Renewals. DLA put him on a 3 turn clock game two and it was over.
While I didn’t face any of the top tier decks on Friday; the power of the life gain from the Offshoots and Renewals; gave me the time I needed to dig for an answer or threat. It enabled me to use my life total as a resource so I block with the offshoot’s when I wanted and wasn’t as worried about their board state since I was able to survive until I could find the answer.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
Not worth playing in my opinion. One of the questions you need to ask yourself is what would you cut to add them to your deck?
Also bouncing 1 creature is not something we want. If we are facing heavy agro we want to be able to clear the board and stabilize; so bouncing 1 creature doesn't help do that if you are facing 3 to 4 creatures. The card draw is nice; but I would rather play an Archive; for the one time card draw; since it can also help us ramp into our threats until you decide to pop it for the card draw.
When I look at possible cards that I might want to add to G/R Ramp; I want to make sure that it either a) helps me stabilize the board or b) helps gets me to 7 mana the quickest and c) if it is a creature; that it is something that effects the board state or has to be answered. Jace does none of these things for this deck in my opinion.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
If Ruin in their wake actually worked as a T2 ramp source I think we'd have a huge chance of catching him and stalling their board. Maybe PSY is right, it might be better to revert back to 4 Jaddi's in the main to counter this. Another deck went as far as to MD 4 Atarkas, 4 Chandras and 4 K's Returns. This may be a viable route as well. I'm just giving the info as many playtests and it Avacyn protecting the team and blanking the 2nd half of the return is a beating.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
It is mostly due to the lifegain that the Offshoot can provide. If you can get an offshoot in play within the first few turns; it can (if not removed) gain you anywhere from 5 to 15 life pretty easily. For example if you have an Offshoot in play and then play a Renewal; you are looking at a minimum of 10 life gained that turn and 11 if you also played a land.
While the Advocate looks good on paper, since it is a 2/3 that can attack without tapping and can end up as a 4/5 pretty easy; all you really get out of it is a blocker that can block one creature. The lifegain you get with the Offshoot buys you the time needed to find your answers and threats. Now if we were also running manlands; then I would rate the Advocate higher then the Offshoot. But in the last 3 weeks to where I've been playing Offshoots; I'm 16 and 3 in games and 8-1 in matches.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
After getting crushed by bant humans, I'm reevaluating sylvan advocate. I wasn't valuing the lifegain highly because every game I'd won with jaddi offshoot were games I'm confident I would have won regardless.
I can honestly say over the last few weeks; playing the Offshoots in the main has won me more than a few games. I’ve had at least 3 games to where I’ve been dealt over 40 damage from the other player and I still won the game. So for me; it hasn’t just been a win more card and more a buy me time so that I can win type card.
I’ve also had the 2nd game or if it went to a 3rd game of a match; to where the other player has targeted my Offshoot over a World Breaker that I have in play with removal, due to the were tired of attacking and not doing any real damage to my life total.
It is very surprising how much life and extra turns just one Offshoot can provide; so that we can draw into our threats and get to the required 6 to 10 mana to play them.
I also do feel that Advocate is one of the best two drops in the current standard and if I was playing Bant CoCo or G/W Tokens I would be running a playset in the MD. I just feel that for the current meta Offshoots just help our deck get to our powerful end game better than the Advocates could.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
Now my list plays Advocate main with Shoots SB, used to have both main, so I play them both, not either or.
I think Shoots are a stable, not to be removed from the 75, 3or4 of them, but I use Advocates over K.Rtn main because That card has disappointed me too often.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
I don't have the fully list with me right now; but it is based off Joshua's original DL that was running 4 Offshoot; 4 K-Return; 4 WB and 4 Ulamog in the main.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Oath's
4 Traverse
4 Wastes
That's 16 cards, and we aren't even including Explosive Vegetation. You lose the ability to run shrines and go over the top of your opponents. I tried this version and tested this for weeks, many of us did. it doesn't put up the results that the current ramp versions do atm.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I run 1 wastes, 3 evolving wilds and 2 oaths (trying to get two more).
The argument is that the deck has so many ways to turn on Ruin In Their Wake. In the worst case you use the first one to fetch the Wastes; in this case you just paid one extra mana over a Traverse for the same effect.
In all other cases the land comes directly into play which is MUCH better than Traverse. Normally off the first Explosive Vegetation you can throw in the Wastes as well. Seeing it every game is not really a problem. I still have enough spots for 4 shrines and sanctums.
I spent a few days using Traverse but found it completely dead. It doesn't ramp you, the delirium is rarely relevant, it is almost worse than playing an evolving wilds. I don't need an extra land sitting in my hand, I need it in PLAY.
I also want to echo an earlier comment. Oath of Nissa is actually not a great early play. The best use is to hold it until you know if you will need it hit your first ramp options if your draws are poor. Otherwise, save it for later to dig for a threat when you need them.
That is my impression/experience as well when trying to run ruin in their wake, getting to 10 lands is harder than it seems. Shrines often provide those additional 2 mana that one needs to get to 10. Later in the game the difference between 8 and 10 mana could be several turns.
RitW has greater access to red mana so you statistically have greater access to red mana if you like red removal; volley, roast as well as playing K.Rtn on time, which I have not read a lot of people complaining about.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Fast forward to today's meta game. Ramp still isn't "great" is okay, and it does has some polarizing match ups, for example:
Grixis control is completely unable to deal with us unless we brick HARD and they draw gold after SB. Pre SB they cannot beat Ulamog.
Humans made it necessary to take that 3rd turn off, so even though ramping to 3 on T2 is good (after setting the darn card up with 12 other cards to merely support it) you still had to be able to make to T5 consistently. Nissa's Pilgrimage is much better at making sure the deck hits it's land drops and is overall really good when spell mastery is on.
The current ramp decks are good, not great, but you have to tune the deck for the meta you're expecting. Right now?
It's G/W Tokens, Humans, Bant Humans, B/W Control (on the Decline but still good) and Bant CoCo. 4 of those decks punish you for not having a T3 play that interacts and the only way to beat those are by using Flyers or going to 3-4 Ulamogs and exiling their most annoying permanents.
Decks we crush?
Grixis, B/W Control, Esper Dragons, and any kind of Midrange deck that relies on creatures, decks like Jund and Naya are favorable match ups. All of the decks utilize Gideon are rough due to Gideon coming down 4 and him looking at you and asking "You going to answer me, If not Take 7, FOR ZENDIKAR!!!". Like no joke, that card alone will beat you. All ramp players have faced the dreaded T4 Gideon, make a token pass.
So....that's why many of us went to Josh's lists because they actually work better than what we tried, and we tried really hard man. To be clear there are 2 distinct lists Josh came up with, one for a humans/aggro meta and the other is set up to have a better G1 against the field/meta. I have run his 2nd list to much success but G/W Tokens feels like they need to have a rough draw, and even then Gideon, into Gideon, into whatever is a beating.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn