I tried to find some Chandra, Flamecallers at my LGS but all spots I tried were sold out so I'll have to wait. I was running radiant flames in the sideboard as a cheap back up plan that can still help with aggro.
Last night I switched out the deck, reluctantly retiring my sylvan advocates and moving tireless trackers to the sideboard to main deck jaddi offshoots and all copies of Kozileks return. Only played a few games but actually I am amazed, it is a very different game. With 1-2 offshoots in play my opponent couldn't even drop me below 20 before the threats were landing.
I wasn't convinced about Ulvenwald Hydra and agree it is a flexible slot, but it worked very well for me, reaching 14/14 and applying pressure until I could draw Ulamog to finish things. I'll try and post my list later.
your are playing at least one Rogue's Passage with that hydra right/
I think its a must!
Just wanted to give an update, have been testing the lastest List created by Mr.Dickerson, and it is legit. It's really hard to completely disrupt. I didn't think I'd like the 4 Hedron Archive's but they ensure that you will have a T4 ramp spell (8 in total) and doubles as a late game cash in CA permanent. It's surprisingly consistent and has mangled my B/W deck, surviving Infinite Obliteration's and Gideons. The 2/2 package of Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher out of the SB is pretty mean. Opponents may expect Thought-Knot, but Smasher is a beating and costs them 2 cards to remove.
Mixed results against rites, but if you can pop off Returns, follow up with a T4-5 Chandra or Breaker, you're good. I wish there was a picth cards and turn all those lands into CA (a la goggles) but sometimes you get to stage where you can just cast multiple bombs. Each usually requiring specific answers.
The Bad: Gideon is still a beating and go wide strategy's require you to have the kind of hand that interacts, and I think it's safe to mull on the draw or play to ensure that you have at least some form of removal/mass removal in hand; Sometimes these decks just stomp you if you can't wipe the board.
Can someone get Josh to comment on how his Grixis Control match up's went? I think of all the control decks that one is the most powerful against this set up. GDD into Transgress is a huge play. The SB allows the deck to port itself back into the original anti aggro build. Yeah, this deck is really pushing me to play it this weekend.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Well I answered my own question on the Grixis Match up. PLayed tonight, and went 3-1 at a LGS.
Matches:
Vs Grixis Control 2-1 Win
So, G1: Goes as well as I could ask. I ramp, land Breakers, and eat his threats late in the game with Ulamog. As expected G1, I took it. G2: He opens with Duress, Passes, then does Jace into Transgress into Obliteration, into another Obliteration into a Jace that can now buyback 2 Obliteration in the yard, yep OVA. G3: He disrupts, but doesn't manage to exile any threats. I land a Smasher and get some damage in and force him to 2 for 1 himself to remove it. I proceed to ramp and get standard tron on line. I then top deck Ulamog, which allows me to get more Ulamog's and Breakers.
Vs G/W Humans 2-0 Win
THIS was a STOMP G1: Perfect hand against Humans, T3 I K's Return lil Gideon, an Inspector, and a Thalia's Lieutenant (all at once and buy bye board ). T4 Veggies, he plays a few dudes, and I T5 break his world and he scoops em up!
G2: He bricks on his 3rd land drop for a few turns. We ended with him having no permanents in play.
Vs Assault Formation 1-2 Loss
I've seen this deck in the past. As a brew, but a few people are really working on it, and my opponent was using the 0/5 Eldrazi and 1/4 Eldrazi that can't be blocked. He had AF on T2 in G1 and it was over in 4 turns. G2, was ridiculous. It had tokens, Adovcates, 2 double jaddis (on my half), Nissa, Nissa Ults, flipped abbeys...in the end recurring World Breaker's, and 2 Ulamogs did him in. G3, he countered every single Ramp spell, I need 1 to resolve to get to Ulamog in time. He managed to establish a better board presence and having my ramp spells countered was super BAD!. I'm sure I didn't SB correctly, so going in blind and doing as well as I did, sure. Loss = many lessons learned.
SB: yeah I just winged it: (on the play)
-3 Chandra (she seemed really bad against 5 butts), -3 Returns (I didn't see tokens in G1, I got my teeth kicked in really fast), -2 Archive. -1 Ulamog, -1 Atarka
+2 Smasher (smash on curve was the plan), +2 Wail (exiling them 0/5 and 1/4 seemed like a good plan), +2 Thought-Knot (Get counters out of grip), +4 Jaddi
Well it worked, I landed double offshoot and G2 and road that lil tree to victory. I netted something like 15 life and had it not been for the T2 Jaddi sequence I'm not sure I would've gotten there.
On the draw: Once I saw that the plan was to get to Ulamog I tried:
+1 Ulamog, and +1 Atarka
-2 Smasher
Vs Jund 2-1 Win
Eh, I missplayed G2 (didn't know he had DL Kolaghan and flew past my ulamog for the last pts of damage), but G3 he had to mull to 6 and didn't find his colors early enough. I ramped out to Eldrazi and blew up his already fragile mana base. It really feels like this version of ramp punishes opponents for missing land drops.
SB plan, same as Grixis. It worked out.
Yeah, deck's good. I'm not sure when to board in the Trackers, it's the one card I didn't care too much for. Everything other card had a slot and I understood when to bring them in. Sure, Tracker's a threat, but I always wanted Archive (except against Kolaghan's Command).
There's a lot of info to take in, and various builds players here have used. Strength's? It's got the best end game in standard (IMO of course).
Weaknesses?
True aggro decks can get under traditional ramp if your opening hand doesn't have the right interaction (Namely, K's Return, into Ramp in Breaker or Chandra). However, the SB matches can improve games 2 and 3 by a lot. Jaddi's go a long way to make your pay off spells matter.
GR Goggles Ramp on the other hand is really, like really good against Aggro and decks that use value creatures as their win cons. However, the Meta has shifted and Planeswalker's are abundant, and goggles ramp has a really hard time beating resolved walkers with high loyalty.
Strengths?
You go over the top of everything, and I mean everything. Opponents must find ways to stall your ramp engine, or disrupt your game plan. B/x control decks use:
to try and stop the deck from ramping early on. Latest tech is use of 4 Hedron Archive's to turbo charge your T4 ramp and insure that your get to 6 on T4.
Match ups?
Ever since MTGpulse went down hard data is rare. You have to really be testing now, but you can read thoughts on match ups in this thread.
From what I see:
Vs Grixis Control (is pretty close, G1 we are favored, G2 and G3 we diversify threats and bring in creatures than come down earlier than planned, I'd say 50/50, I think ramp is favored, but...GDD into anything that shreds our hand or deck is nasty stuff. It'll be a good match, tense but good. VERY close and leave it at that)
Vs Esper Control/ Dragons, Traditional ramp is favored.
Vs B/W Control, Favored G1, G2 and G3 Secure the Wastes is a hell of card and so is Gideon on the play. Tricky match up, Gideon is a beating if ramp fails to interact with him. The 4 Ulamog deck is favored in my testing.
Vs G/W Tokens, this match up is a PAIN in the *** and most ramp players acknowledge that it's not a pretty picture. they go wide, they have gideon, they have an army of walkers, they have abbey's that flip, they have advocates, 3/3 things that flip into 4/4's...that said it's not unwinnable but you must deal with their threats as you ramp your way to ulamog. Oh there's Avacyn too, I'm going to go ahead and say npt out best match up.
Vs Bant CoCo, is a race to see who sticks it to who first. Very much 50/50. They're not the quickest deck so, early returns in Breakers or Chandra's is always good.
Vs Rites.dec I'm not sure, some of their starts are really explosive and you just get combo'd out. Sometimes K's return comes down and wreck their army of 2 butts.
Vs 4cRites. I have very little exp in this match up, i'd need to test it.
Vs Jund and Mardu decks. Generally these don't seem bad at all.
Vs Humans of all kinds. If the meta shifts to humans, it's a tough time to be a ramp player. There are builds that allow you have game, but aggro is aggro. They're good against this kind of strategy.
Vs Seasons Past.... -crickets- Hard times, if your deck isn't diversified G1 it's hard to not get wrecked by Dark Petition. yea...
These are my opinions and may not reflect the info from a few pages back. However, this what I have experienced from months and months of being on ramp. Loving it and hating it, when it's good...IS VERY good, and extremely powerful. -cue sounds of bones being cracked-
Oh, thanks!
Nirvana_123 had linked the old list that i was talking about.
Some of the stuff that i said can be seen in Joshua's new list, but he stayed true to his "ramp into ulamog" plan
With the meta slowing down and moving away from fast agro decks (Humans); the "Ramp into Ulamog" plan is back working We just need to make sure that our SB can deal with both fast agro (using Offshoots for the life gain) and hand disruption (being able to diversified our threats) going forward. Since I agree with Racerxen that currently we have decent matchups with most of the field.
I won't be able to play tonight since I'm going to the GP tomorrow; so I won't be able to test Joshua's latest build until the following week and see how it plays locally. Unless tomorrow goes real wrong and I drop to play in some of the standard side events.
Psy
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In my experience against the Rites deck the match gets more difficult after board when their deck transforms from combo to beatdown with Reality Smashers and Thought-knot seers, alongside Transgress the Mind and Negate as the usual plan would just be to increase board wipe and removal. Any thoughts?
Yeah that 4 Ulamog deck worked for me last night and the night before another friend took it to the same store and 4-0 with it. So, it's viable again. It's really consistent, the 8 T4 Ramp plays make it so that you're getting to T4 with 6 mana.
I really like some of the ideas regarding threat diversification. Joshua's SB can produce a total of 3 additional creature threats, plus the 3 already in the MD, that's 16 creatures to work with. It's not a silver bullet against control but it does mean we can play through a few Obliterations . In G2 against my Grixis opponent I wouldn't scooped if he didn't have access to 4 Infinite Obleration's By T6 (he had ripped Breakser and 2 Ulamog's from my hand already and transgress my Smasher, talk about a beating). G3 he drew some interaction but I mulled away a hand of threats to see 6 that hand 3 lands 3 ramp spells and 1 land scryed to the top.
I'm kind of wanting to do something with Cryptolith Rite and have been exploring some possibilities. Here is a starting point for me to go off of. What do you guys think?
The idea is to use things like Jaddi Offshoot as a mana dork. It enables Shaman of Forgotten Ways to tap as a mana dork or as a double mana dork for Creatures. Surrak is a good early turn blocker and a great later turn enabler for big damage. Chandra's +1 with the elementals will allow them to add 2 extra mana to the mana pool that turn. Most importantly, all my creatures survive Kozilek's Return the first time around. Jaddi Offshoot will allow for lifegain in the early turns to help late turn stabalization. Dragonlord Atarka and World breaker are the game enders along with the singleton Ulamog. Haven and the Wastes allow for recursion of both World Breaker and Dragonlord Atarka.
This is a starting point, but the idea is to incorporate Cryptolith Rite into the deck. What do you guys think so far?
Turn ideas:
1. Jaddi Offshoot
2. Cryptolith Rite, tap jaddi for Oath - 2 land
3. Explosive Vegetation - 5 land
4. Dragonlord Atarka or Worldbreaker - 6 land. That would be the nut draw for the deck I think. I'm also trying to think of more 1 or 2 drop potentials that could combo with using Cryptolith Rite to add into the deck for a clean turn 4 threat.
Oh, thanks!
Nirvana_123 had linked the old list that i was talking about.
Some of the stuff that i said can be seen in Joshua's new list, but he stayed true to his "ramp into ulamog" plan
With the meta slowing down and moving away from fast agro decks (Humans); the "Ramp into Ulamog" plan is back working We just need to make sure that our SB can deal with both fast agro (using Offshoots for the life gain) and hand disruption (being able to diversified our threats) going forward. Since I agree with Racerxen that currently we have decent matchups with most of the field.
I won't be able to play tonight since I'm going to the GP tomorrow; so I won't be able to test Joshua's latest build until the following week and see how it plays locally. Unless tomorrow goes real wrong and I drop to play in some of the standard side events.
Psy
Good luck at the gp, i also think that every deck needs ulamog, but it feels like ramping into atarka is the much stronger play at the moment. (that's why i will play the full playset of her tonight)
So many people play gideon, secure the wastes and westvale abbey, atarka is just a powerhouse overall and trumps every relevant creature AND planeswalker.
She is also 'immune' to eldrazi displacer and if they reflector mage her she usually already cleaned up their board and will do the same 2 turns later.
From my experience the rites decks can just generate ridiculous value from duskwatch recruiter, CoCo and eldrazi displacer and with the random "i win" combo it becomes really hard to defeat as a ramp player.
The lack of removal on their side makes me want to play Chandra's Ignition in the sideboard, any thoughts on that card?
@itazuranarisu: if you know they will be playing like that you should just diversify your threats a little bit and focus a lot on your ramp plan.
Reality smashers are scary but Atarka and Ulamog don't care about the pseudo hexproof and it comes down late enough to allow us to answer it with our own threats.
So my advice is to remove any 'playful' cards and try to power out atarka ulamog and worls breaker asap.
If they remove the combo from their deck you can just let them do their thing and answer it by doing scarier things than they are.
I can see that to a degree. I think I may also be suffering from the skewed perspective that comes from playing against nut draws like transgress followed by thought-knot and reality smasher. Still transgress, negate, and thought-knot together seem like a nightmare for ramp, especially followed by a flood of threats or just a big threat.
I'm going to try and put in two Orbs of Warding in the sideboard tonight specifically to give some protection against disruption. The damage prevention may even be helpful against tokens or humans. The key would be to cast it as early as possible.
I'm going to try and put in two Orbs of Warding in the sideboard tonight specifically to give some protection against disruption. The damage prevention may even be helpful against tokens or humans. The key would be to cast it as early as possible.
I run 1 in my sideboard and it has won me a few games. While it normally won't stop the first Duress or Transgress; if we can get it down soon enough it will stop them from taking apart your hand until they find away to remove it. I've also used it against agro or decks playing direct damage spells and most of opponents don't realize what the card does until they read it and realize that the spell they just played fizzled. Just remember that normally the earliest we can get it in play is turn 4.
I can see that to a degree. I think I may also be suffering from the skewed perspective that comes from playing against nut draws like transgress followed by thought-knot and reality smasher. Still transgress, negate, and thought-knot together seem like a nightmare for ramp, especially followed by a flood of threats or just a big threat.
We have all been on the receiving end of people having nut draws and picked our hands apart. I've also had them play Transgress the Mind and then jaw drop when they looked at my hand; because I already had 2 lands and a dork in play and my hand still consisted of Land, Pilgrimage, Explosive or Archives, Chandra and WB. So it didn't matter what they took on turn 2; I was going to be at 6 mana on turn 4 and they were going to be in trouble. It is why we play the game ;)and not just fold when someone starts to pick our hand apart.
So while Infinite Obliteration is good against our deck; I normally start to change up my threats for game 2 and 3. I'll side out WB and Ulamog's for other threats so if they do name one of those two I still have ways to win the game. It might take longer; but I still have options.
Psy
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Trying out the ramp to Ula list. Any siding suggestions against Grixis? Kolaghan's command makes siding out the Archives like a must, but do we really want to lose the extra ramp? What have been your experiences?
This is Joshua Dickerson, recently recovered my account after a member commented on one of my articles on MTGcardmarket.com, next week on Tuesday you can look forward to my analysis after my finish at the Classic last weekend and how I think G/R Ramp will continue to evolve in the meta, if I remember I will also post a link to the article here, you guys are always free to ask me any questions there as well and I will answer as many as I can!
Also, I know it seems like a bad choice in some events, but what do we think of a one-of Birthing Hulk for matches where we have to deal with Infinite Obliteration? In general I don't like it as much as Gaea's Revenge for obvious reasons, but it blocks wide (though no reach), triggers K Return and Sanctum, regenerates....
So I took the Ramp to Ula list (Dickerson's list, with a few minor changes due to meta concerns and play style, -1 Ulamog +1 Kozilek, -1 Oath of Nissa -1 Cinder Glade, +2 Traverse the Ulvenwald) to a local PPTQ.
Went 1-2, then dropped.
Matches:
Match 1 v Naya Planewalkers. Round 1: I was on the play and ramped smoothly, pretty much went as you would expect. Round 2: His deck curved out just about perfectly while I got flooded and died to Chandra + Sylvan Advocate. Round 3: Won with chaining Worldbreaker into Ulamog and then another Worldbreaker, wiping the board with K Return off the Ulamog.
Match 2 v Jund Midrange: Don't really remember much about these middle games. I was on the draw in the first game and lost. Second game my side choices served me well. I actually end of turn cast two warping wails after he had infinite obliterationed my worldbreakers when I had Ulamog in hand. Cast Ulamog, follwed by Kozilek, he scooped. Game three I died to two empowered Sylvan Advocates and Chandra for 14 damage I couldn't answer in any way.
Match 3 v White/Colorless Eldrazi: I lost game 1 to getting early Reality Smasher'd to death when I drew lands and ramp and no action spells. The wages of playing ramp. Game 2 I crushed with a combination of my own Reality Smasher, gaining life from Nissa's Renewal, then killing one of his two Reality Smashers with Dragonlord Atarka. (this guy saw two smashers a game which is how I lost game 3) Game 3: Had Atarka again, but mirror pool, and two reality smashers with me at 3 life was just not enough. Sucked because he had misplayed, dropping two Eldrazi mimics before the first Smasher and I K returned. However, He had mirrorpool and played a second smasher the turn before I was able to play Atarka to stabilize. Felt really bad knowing world breaker would have solved all of my problems and just not drawing it.
So my first time out with this particular build were not particularly positive. Not sure how much was just variance and how much is problematic match ups.
While I'm a big fan of at least one Kozilek, I'm not sure about cutting an Oath and adding Traverse. The card seems mediocre since the list can't turn on delirium as consistently as some other decks, whereas Oath is solid early and late game. I'm surprised you lost to Jund, I thought we were favored in that matchup...pending further information I'd chalk that one up to variance.
Cutting the 4th Ulamog for something else is probably fine, but cutting an Oath almost assuredly is not. Traverse will so rarely be on it's not a good fit in this build. Also cutting a land makes it more likely you have to mulligan in this build due to no green sources.
While I'm a big fan of at least one Kozilek, I'm not sure about cutting an Oath and adding Traverse. The card seems mediocre since the list can't turn on delirium as consistently as some other decks, whereas Oath is solid early and late game. I'm surprised you lost to Jund, I thought we were favored in that matchup...pending further information I'd chalk that one up to variance.
Variance pretty much covers it, at least with the last game. It was one of those games where you mull away no green sources, draw all ramp and lands, then continue not to see threats.
I'd like to share my deck that I've won 3 FNMs with, and placed just out of top 8 with in a PPTQ yesterday (Which I feel I can attribute to a lack of experience with sideboarding, and one game where I just was stuck on 2 lands the whole game *hopefully I format this right, never posted a deck here)
After trying a multitude of deck combinations, I've come to the conclusion that I still hated ruin in their wake, and mana dorks aren't targetted as often as people think (and if they are, then my opponent wasted a turn)
I've included deathcap cultivator as a ramp from 2-4, early blocker (sacrifice outlet if my opponent is playing to the slaughter, bearer of silence or blighted fen)
Elvish visionary is a card that smooths my transition from turn 2-3, isn't dead lategame (card cycle) and I dislike having no plays on turn 2
Shaman of forgotten ways has been an allstar - allows me to go from turn 3 to a turn 4 hydra if I didn't get a mana dork turn 2. Kind of like a turn 3 hedron archive that can't be used on chandra and or other spells, the formidable ability has actually won me 3 games this weekend)
Rest of the ramp package is pretty standard - I want to move the nissa to a 2nd hedron archive, after finding her falling short oftentimes. I figured she'd be a turn 3 play that if I didn't have pilgrimage at least drew me a land, and she has late game capabilities.
Hydra has been a beast - growing to as big as 18/18 in some games, tutoring lands (When I'm stuck without a red for atarka, double red for chandra if I had no oath, or a shrine/sanctum for my eldrazi)
I'll talk about the PPTQ matchups since I feel those were the most relevant
Game 1 was vs G/B crypto rites w/ coco and small things/westvale. He took game 1 with an extremely fast start that I couldn't come back on - the game dragged on for probably 20 turns, but he eventually got a 3rd cutthroat to finish me off), games 2 and 3 I sided in the 4 jaddi offshoots and kozi returns (didn't draw the offshoots in either game) - kozilek's return ruined his day here
(Won 2-1)
2nd matchup was vs b/w control. Game 1 my opponent had 5 lands out - two forsaken sanctuary, plains and 2 westvale abbey. I went after the b/w lands instead of abbeys hoping to cut him off - but he kept dropping another land every turn and eventually took it with ormandahl. Couldn't get to 10 mana for the ula
Game two sided in 2 tireless trackers, 2 gaea's revenge and kozi, taking out 2 elvish visionary, nissa, a chandra and an oath. Took it easily - he couldn't keep up with the threat count) Game 3 I had an opening hand of forest, shrine, deathcap, shaman, nissa's pigrimage, explosive veg, worldbreaker. He used duress t1, T2 drop deathcap - he killed it. Never drew a 3rd land til turn 6 - didn't stand a chance. This guy won the tournament (Loss 1-2)
Game 3 was vs a naya superfriends deck that starred nahiri, arlinn, gideon, nissa and sylvan advocates. I took game 1, he took 2 and 3 after I sideboarded poorly (I took some threats out for kozi return and jaddi offshoots - I also didn't see his needle spires was buffed by sylvan advocate and took 8 damage instead of 4 on a chump block (Blocked the advocate) - Probably would have won this, but the extra 4 life taken cost me too much) (Loss 1-2)
Game 4 was vs the same deck, but I just sided out 2 visionary for 2 tracker - won easily
Game 5 was vs g/w tokens - He got game 1 with a very quick start of 2 advocates and just swarming me with small tokens and creatures - didn't draw enough threats or wipes to deal with it. I sided in 2 tireless trackers for the visionaries and looked for more aggressive starts - smashed him game two, and in game 3, I had the board pretty stabalized (Him at 20 hp, me at 5, him having nissa, hangarback, a lambholt pacifist and a sylvan advocate, I had shaman, deathcap, ula, atarka). I used shaman's ability to put him at 4, swung with atarka and took it
I think going forward I will replace the nissa with a second hedron archive, and will reevaluate how I sideboard more. Taking out too many threats for board control ended up with me losing a lot more than winning. Keeping to the main plan was a key to victory.
This is Joshua Dickerson, recently recovered my account after a member commented on one of my articles on MTGcardmarket.com, next week on Tuesday you can look forward to my analysis after my finish at the Classic last weekend and how I think G/R Ramp will continue to evolve in the meta, if I remember I will also post a link to the article here, you guys are always free to ask me any questions there as well and I will answer as many as I can!
Is your originial list that won the SCG open a decent choice in a meta that has a lot of W/x human decks?
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your are playing at least one Rogue's Passage with that hydra right/
I think its a must!
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Mixed results against rites, but if you can pop off Returns, follow up with a T4-5 Chandra or Breaker, you're good. I wish there was a picth cards and turn all those lands into CA (a la goggles) but sometimes you get to stage where you can just cast multiple bombs. Each usually requiring specific answers.
The Bad: Gideon is still a beating and go wide strategy's require you to have the kind of hand that interacts, and I think it's safe to mull on the draw or play to ensure that you have at least some form of removal/mass removal in hand; Sometimes these decks just stomp you if you can't wipe the board.
Can someone get Josh to comment on how his Grixis Control match up's went? I think of all the control decks that one is the most powerful against this set up. GDD into Transgress is a huge play. The SB allows the deck to port itself back into the original anti aggro build. Yeah, this deck is really pushing me to play it this weekend.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
EDIT: https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/4k26fw/standard_rg_ramp_or_bant_company/
Matches:
Vs Grixis Control 2-1 Win
So, G1: Goes as well as I could ask. I ramp, land Breakers, and eat his threats late in the game with Ulamog. As expected G1, I took it. G2: He opens with Duress, Passes, then does Jace into Transgress into Obliteration, into another Obliteration into a Jace that can now buyback 2 Obliteration in the yard, yep OVA. G3: He disrupts, but doesn't manage to exile any threats. I land a Smasher and get some damage in and force him to 2 for 1 himself to remove it. I proceed to ramp and get standard tron on line. I then top deck Ulamog, which allows me to get more Ulamog's and Breakers.
SB Plan:
-3 Chandra, -2 Archive, - 1 K's Returns
+ 2 Smasher, +2 Thought-Knot, + 2 Wail
Vs G/W Humans 2-0 Win
THIS was a STOMP G1: Perfect hand against Humans, T3 I K's Return lil Gideon, an Inspector, and a Thalia's Lieutenant (all at once and buy bye board ). T4 Veggies, he plays a few dudes, and I T5 break his world and he scoops em up!
G2: He bricks on his 3rd land drop for a few turns. We ended with him having no permanents in play.
SB:
+ 1 Return, + 4 Jaddi
-2 Archive, -2 Ulamog, -1 Chandra
Vs Assault Formation 1-2 Loss
I've seen this deck in the past. As a brew, but a few people are really working on it, and my opponent was using the 0/5 Eldrazi and 1/4 Eldrazi that can't be blocked. He had AF on T2 in G1 and it was over in 4 turns. G2, was ridiculous. It had tokens, Adovcates, 2 double jaddis (on my half), Nissa, Nissa Ults, flipped abbeys...in the end recurring World Breaker's, and 2 Ulamogs did him in. G3, he countered every single Ramp spell, I need 1 to resolve to get to Ulamog in time. He managed to establish a better board presence and having my ramp spells countered was super BAD!. I'm sure I didn't SB correctly, so going in blind and doing as well as I did, sure. Loss = many lessons learned.
SB: yeah I just winged it: (on the play)
-3 Chandra (she seemed really bad against 5 butts), -3 Returns (I didn't see tokens in G1, I got my teeth kicked in really fast), -2 Archive. -1 Ulamog, -1 Atarka
+2 Smasher (smash on curve was the plan), +2 Wail (exiling them 0/5 and 1/4 seemed like a good plan), +2 Thought-Knot (Get counters out of grip), +4 Jaddi
Well it worked, I landed double offshoot and G2 and road that lil tree to victory. I netted something like 15 life and had it not been for the T2 Jaddi sequence I'm not sure I would've gotten there.
On the draw: Once I saw that the plan was to get to Ulamog I tried:
+1 Ulamog, and +1 Atarka
-2 Smasher
I had all my ramp spells countered with Invasive Surgery and Negate Oh well.
Vs Jund 2-1 Win
Eh, I missplayed G2 (didn't know he had DL Kolaghan and flew past my ulamog for the last pts of damage), but G3 he had to mull to 6 and didn't find his colors early enough. I ramped out to Eldrazi and blew up his already fragile mana base. It really feels like this version of ramp punishes opponents for missing land drops.
SB plan, same as Grixis. It worked out.
Yeah, deck's good. I'm not sure when to board in the Trackers, it's the one card I didn't care too much for. Everything other card had a slot and I understood when to bring them in. Sure, Tracker's a threat, but I always wanted Archive (except against Kolaghan's Command).
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Weaknesses?
True aggro decks can get under traditional ramp if your opening hand doesn't have the right interaction (Namely, K's Return, into Ramp in Breaker or Chandra). However, the SB matches can improve games 2 and 3 by a lot. Jaddi's go a long way to make your pay off spells matter.
GR Goggles Ramp on the other hand is really, like really good against Aggro and decks that use value creatures as their win cons. However, the Meta has shifted and Planeswalker's are abundant, and goggles ramp has a really hard time beating resolved walkers with high loyalty.
Strengths?
You go over the top of everything, and I mean everything. Opponents must find ways to stall your ramp engine, or disrupt your game plan. B/x control decks use:
Transgress the Mind
Duress
Infinite Obliteration
Anguished Unmaking
Pick the Brain
to try and stop the deck from ramping early on. Latest tech is use of 4 Hedron Archive's to turbo charge your T4 ramp and insure that your get to 6 on T4.
Match ups?
Ever since MTGpulse went down hard data is rare. You have to really be testing now, but you can read thoughts on match ups in this thread.
From what I see:
Vs Grixis Control (is pretty close, G1 we are favored, G2 and G3 we diversify threats and bring in creatures than come down earlier than planned, I'd say 50/50, I think ramp is favored, but...GDD into anything that shreds our hand or deck is nasty stuff. It'll be a good match, tense but good. VERY close and leave it at that)
Vs Esper Control/ Dragons, Traditional ramp is favored.
Vs B/W Control, Favored G1, G2 and G3 Secure the Wastes is a hell of card and so is Gideon on the play. Tricky match up, Gideon is a beating if ramp fails to interact with him. The 4 Ulamog deck is favored in my testing.
Vs G/W Tokens, this match up is a PAIN in the *** and most ramp players acknowledge that it's not a pretty picture. they go wide, they have gideon, they have an army of walkers, they have abbey's that flip, they have advocates, 3/3 things that flip into 4/4's...that said it's not unwinnable but you must deal with their threats as you ramp your way to ulamog. Oh there's Avacyn too, I'm going to go ahead and say npt out best match up.
Vs Bant CoCo, is a race to see who sticks it to who first. Very much 50/50. They're not the quickest deck so, early returns in Breakers or Chandra's is always good.
Vs Rites.dec I'm not sure, some of their starts are really explosive and you just get combo'd out. Sometimes K's return comes down and wreck their army of 2 butts.
Vs 4cRites. I have very little exp in this match up, i'd need to test it.
Vs Jund and Mardu decks. Generally these don't seem bad at all.
Vs Humans of all kinds. If the meta shifts to humans, it's a tough time to be a ramp player. There are builds that allow you have game, but aggro is aggro. They're good against this kind of strategy.
Vs Seasons Past.... -crickets- Hard times, if your deck isn't diversified G1 it's hard to not get wrecked by Dark Petition. yea...
These are my opinions and may not reflect the info from a few pages back. However, this what I have experienced from months and months of being on ramp. Loving it and hating it, when it's good...IS VERY good, and extremely powerful. -cue sounds of bones being cracked-
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
5 days ago list where he placed 2nd:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/416879#paper
EDH: Rakdos, Lord of Riots
With the meta slowing down and moving away from fast agro decks (Humans); the "Ramp into Ulamog" plan is back working We just need to make sure that our SB can deal with both fast agro (using Offshoots for the life gain) and hand disruption (being able to diversified our threats) going forward. Since I agree with Racerxen that currently we have decent matchups with most of the field.
I won't be able to play tonight since I'm going to the GP tomorrow; so I won't be able to test Joshua's latest build until the following week and see how it plays locally. Unless tomorrow goes real wrong and I drop to play in some of the standard side events.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
Yeah that 4 Ulamog deck worked for me last night and the night before another friend took it to the same store and 4-0 with it. So, it's viable again. It's really consistent, the 8 T4 Ramp plays make it so that you're getting to T4 with 6 mana.
I really like some of the ideas regarding threat diversification. Joshua's SB can produce a total of 3 additional creature threats, plus the 3 already in the MD, that's 16 creatures to work with. It's not a silver bullet against control but it does mean we can play through a few Obliterations . In G2 against my Grixis opponent I wouldn't scooped if he didn't have access to 4 Infinite Obleration's By T6 (he had ripped Breakser and 2 Ulamog's from my hand already and transgress my Smasher, talk about a beating). G3 he drew some interaction but I mulled away a hand of threats to see 6 that hand 3 lands 3 ramp spells and 1 land scryed to the top.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
2 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
4 Dragonlord Atarka
4 World Breaker
1 Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger
2 Surrak, The Hunt Caller
4 Kozilek's Return
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Cryptolith Rite
4 Game Trail
4 Cinder Glade
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
10 Forest
4 Mountain
The idea is to use things like Jaddi Offshoot as a mana dork. It enables Shaman of Forgotten Ways to tap as a mana dork or as a double mana dork for Creatures. Surrak is a good early turn blocker and a great later turn enabler for big damage. Chandra's +1 with the elementals will allow them to add 2 extra mana to the mana pool that turn. Most importantly, all my creatures survive Kozilek's Return the first time around. Jaddi Offshoot will allow for lifegain in the early turns to help late turn stabalization. Dragonlord Atarka and World breaker are the game enders along with the singleton Ulamog. Haven and the Wastes allow for recursion of both World Breaker and Dragonlord Atarka.
This is a starting point, but the idea is to incorporate Cryptolith Rite into the deck. What do you guys think so far?
Turn ideas:
1. Jaddi Offshoot
2. Cryptolith Rite, tap jaddi for Oath - 2 land
3. Explosive Vegetation - 5 land
4. Dragonlord Atarka or Worldbreaker - 6 land. That would be the nut draw for the deck I think. I'm also trying to think of more 1 or 2 drop potentials that could combo with using Cryptolith Rite to add into the deck for a clean turn 4 threat.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
I can see that to a degree. I think I may also be suffering from the skewed perspective that comes from playing against nut draws like transgress followed by thought-knot and reality smasher. Still transgress, negate, and thought-knot together seem like a nightmare for ramp, especially followed by a flood of threats or just a big threat.
I run 1 in my sideboard and it has won me a few games. While it normally won't stop the first Duress or Transgress; if we can get it down soon enough it will stop them from taking apart your hand until they find away to remove it. I've also used it against agro or decks playing direct damage spells and most of opponents don't realize what the card does until they read it and realize that the spell they just played fizzled. Just remember that normally the earliest we can get it in play is turn 4.
We have all been on the receiving end of people having nut draws and picked our hands apart. I've also had them play Transgress the Mind and then jaw drop when they looked at my hand; because I already had 2 lands and a dork in play and my hand still consisted of Land, Pilgrimage, Explosive or Archives, Chandra and WB. So it didn't matter what they took on turn 2; I was going to be at 6 mana on turn 4 and they were going to be in trouble. It is why we play the game ;)and not just fold when someone starts to pick our hand apart.
So while Infinite Obliteration is good against our deck; I normally start to change up my threats for game 2 and 3. I'll side out WB and Ulamog's for other threats so if they do name one of those two I still have ways to win the game. It might take longer; but I still have options.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
Went 1-2, then dropped.
Matches:
Match 1 v Naya Planewalkers. Round 1: I was on the play and ramped smoothly, pretty much went as you would expect. Round 2: His deck curved out just about perfectly while I got flooded and died to Chandra + Sylvan Advocate. Round 3: Won with chaining Worldbreaker into Ulamog and then another Worldbreaker, wiping the board with K Return off the Ulamog.
Match 2 v Jund Midrange: Don't really remember much about these middle games. I was on the draw in the first game and lost. Second game my side choices served me well. I actually end of turn cast two warping wails after he had infinite obliterationed my worldbreakers when I had Ulamog in hand. Cast Ulamog, follwed by Kozilek, he scooped. Game three I died to two empowered Sylvan Advocates and Chandra for 14 damage I couldn't answer in any way.
Match 3 v White/Colorless Eldrazi: I lost game 1 to getting early Reality Smasher'd to death when I drew lands and ramp and no action spells. The wages of playing ramp. Game 2 I crushed with a combination of my own Reality Smasher, gaining life from Nissa's Renewal, then killing one of his two Reality Smashers with Dragonlord Atarka. (this guy saw two smashers a game which is how I lost game 3) Game 3: Had Atarka again, but mirror pool, and two reality smashers with me at 3 life was just not enough. Sucked because he had misplayed, dropping two Eldrazi mimics before the first Smasher and I K returned. However, He had mirrorpool and played a second smasher the turn before I was able to play Atarka to stabilize. Felt really bad knowing world breaker would have solved all of my problems and just not drawing it.
So my first time out with this particular build were not particularly positive. Not sure how much was just variance and how much is problematic match ups.
EDH: Rakdos, Lord of Riots
Undergrowth has been a good early turn blocker. I'd love feedback if possible. Bad matchup seems to be black white online.
4 Jaddi Offshoot
4 Undergrowth Champion
4 Explosive Vegetation
4 Dragonlord Atarka
4 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
4 Oath of Nissa
1 Wastes
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Game Trail
4 Cinder Glade
11 Forest
3 Mountain
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Roast
3 Tears of Valakut
1 Kozilek's Return
4 Thunderbreak Regent
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
Variance pretty much covers it, at least with the last game. It was one of those games where you mull away no green sources, draw all ramp and lands, then continue not to see threats.
3x Dragonlord Atarka
2x Elvish Visionary
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip
2x Shaman of Forgotten Ways
2x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3x Ulvenwald Hydra
3x World Breaker
11x Forest
2x Game Trail
2x Mountain
1x Rogue's Passage
3x Sanctum of Ugin
2x Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
4x Nissa's Pilgrimage
4x Oath of Nissa
1x Hedron Archive
3x Chandra, Flamecaller
Sideboard is
4x Jaddi Offshoot
1x Kozilek, the great distortion
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Gaea's Revenge
2x Rending Volley
After trying a multitude of deck combinations, I've come to the conclusion that I still hated ruin in their wake, and mana dorks aren't targetted as often as people think (and if they are, then my opponent wasted a turn)
I've included deathcap cultivator as a ramp from 2-4, early blocker (sacrifice outlet if my opponent is playing to the slaughter, bearer of silence or blighted fen)
Elvish visionary is a card that smooths my transition from turn 2-3, isn't dead lategame (card cycle) and I dislike having no plays on turn 2
Shaman of forgotten ways has been an allstar - allows me to go from turn 3 to a turn 4 hydra if I didn't get a mana dork turn 2. Kind of like a turn 3 hedron archive that can't be used on chandra and or other spells, the formidable ability has actually won me 3 games this weekend)
Rest of the ramp package is pretty standard - I want to move the nissa to a 2nd hedron archive, after finding her falling short oftentimes. I figured she'd be a turn 3 play that if I didn't have pilgrimage at least drew me a land, and she has late game capabilities.
Hydra has been a beast - growing to as big as 18/18 in some games, tutoring lands (When I'm stuck without a red for atarka, double red for chandra if I had no oath, or a shrine/sanctum for my eldrazi)
I'll talk about the PPTQ matchups since I feel those were the most relevant
Game 1 was vs G/B crypto rites w/ coco and small things/westvale. He took game 1 with an extremely fast start that I couldn't come back on - the game dragged on for probably 20 turns, but he eventually got a 3rd cutthroat to finish me off), games 2 and 3 I sided in the 4 jaddi offshoots and kozi returns (didn't draw the offshoots in either game) - kozilek's return ruined his day here
(Won 2-1)
2nd matchup was vs b/w control. Game 1 my opponent had 5 lands out - two forsaken sanctuary, plains and 2 westvale abbey. I went after the b/w lands instead of abbeys hoping to cut him off - but he kept dropping another land every turn and eventually took it with ormandahl. Couldn't get to 10 mana for the ula
Game two sided in 2 tireless trackers, 2 gaea's revenge and kozi, taking out 2 elvish visionary, nissa, a chandra and an oath. Took it easily - he couldn't keep up with the threat count) Game 3 I had an opening hand of forest, shrine, deathcap, shaman, nissa's pigrimage, explosive veg, worldbreaker. He used duress t1, T2 drop deathcap - he killed it. Never drew a 3rd land til turn 6 - didn't stand a chance. This guy won the tournament (Loss 1-2)
Game 3 was vs a naya superfriends deck that starred nahiri, arlinn, gideon, nissa and sylvan advocates. I took game 1, he took 2 and 3 after I sideboarded poorly (I took some threats out for kozi return and jaddi offshoots - I also didn't see his needle spires was buffed by sylvan advocate and took 8 damage instead of 4 on a chump block (Blocked the advocate) - Probably would have won this, but the extra 4 life taken cost me too much) (Loss 1-2)
Game 4 was vs the same deck, but I just sided out 2 visionary for 2 tracker - won easily
Game 5 was vs g/w tokens - He got game 1 with a very quick start of 2 advocates and just swarming me with small tokens and creatures - didn't draw enough threats or wipes to deal with it. I sided in 2 tireless trackers for the visionaries and looked for more aggressive starts - smashed him game two, and in game 3, I had the board pretty stabalized (Him at 20 hp, me at 5, him having nissa, hangarback, a lambholt pacifist and a sylvan advocate, I had shaman, deathcap, ula, atarka). I used shaman's ability to put him at 4, swung with atarka and took it
I think going forward I will replace the nissa with a second hedron archive, and will reevaluate how I sideboard more. Taking out too many threats for board control ended up with me losing a lot more than winning. Keeping to the main plan was a key to victory.