Well took Joshua;s Deck out for a test run at standard tournament, 4 rounds and I had to take a loss round one due to me getting off work late but hey work is work. Went 3-1 thought and results:
Round 1: Loss LATE DOH!
Round 2: Vs Abzan Control (featuring tons of Eldrazi) 2-0 Win
Highlights, G2: He told me his sided in 11 Discard effects. He drew none, until T8 G2. I got to ramp unhindered to Breaks and Ulamogs.
Round 3: Vs G/R Werewolves 2-0 Win
(I really hope this deck gets some upgrades, it's a Lightning Bolt effect away from getting there)
That said, G1: I stabilize at 1 and then blow up his board with Breaker into Ulamog eating Arlinn Kord and a land.
G2: he Mulled to 5. Nuff Said
Round 4: Vs Grixis Control 2-0 Win
My opponent said "I have like a 0% chance of beating you, I hate playing against your deck". He was right. Grixis is a good match up, and having played against a few times now with Josh's new build, I'm sure it's like 60/40 if not more.
Deck felt very powerful and consistent, looking forward to bigger events near me. Lastly, I love World Breaker, ahem, many opponents do not...oh well
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
I feel like this deck will be much much stronger after the next rotation. Its biggest enemy is black with Inifinite Obliteration right now. I mean it can end games just like that, especially with Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Jace's copying it from the graveyard. Extremely annoying card.
I hope they won't make another similar effect in Eldritch Moon. If they won't, the Ramp deck will be much safer to play, at least until Ulamogs and Wold Breakers rotate next year. Can't wait for October :).
Actually, our biggest enemy is humans, IMHO. I've never had any problems against any B/x control but against humans I only win like 1 in every 5, if that. I also play Reality Smasher main deck now and I'm telling you He is a house against B/x control. They don't have a clean answer for him other than To the slaughter (which rarely see play) and Ob Nixilis (which is too slow).
The only B/X decks that really shred ramp are the dedicated Eldrazi ones which aren't that popular. There was a B/W Eldrazi early and that deck made ramp very tough to run, and with the early human decks coming out in full force; Ramp found itself poorly positioned.
Obliteration is an issue if an opponent manages to cast it 2x. Even then if the threat is already on the board and cannot be removed fro some reason you can still fight through them. I do have a friend who Sides in 2 Obliteration, 4 Transgress, 2 Pick the Brain, plus Duress against me. He also plays GDD and I have had my entire threat base extracted in a few matches. I've seen him leave a ramp player with a single Tireless Tracker in his deck. So...Exile effects are great if they can snipe them out of our hands, most decks don't gun for ramp right now, The grixis player went as far to say "this deck isn't even apart of the meta, I don't prepare for it". Good to know.
I feel like this deck will be much much stronger after the next rotation. Its biggest enemy is black with Inifinite Obliteration right now. I mean it can end games just like that, especially with Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Jace's copying it from the graveyard. Extremely annoying card.
I hope they won't make another similar effect in Eldritch Moon. If they won't, the Ramp deck will be much safer to play, at least until Ulamogs and Wold Breakers rotate next year. Can't wait for October :).
Actually, our biggest enemy is humans, IMHO. I've never had any problems against any B/x control but against humans I only win like 1 in every 5, if that. I also play Reality Smasher main deck now and I'm telling you He is a house against B/x control. They don't have a clean answer for him other than To the slaughter (which rarely see play) and Ob Nixilis (which is too slow).
I still have a lot of W/x Humans at my LGS so I'm still playing with offshoots and returns main deck.
Have to agree here about Smasher. After my experience siding him in, I felt like I would rather be starting with him in the deck than waiting 'til game 2. Nissa's Pilgrimage into Smasher is crazy.
I feel like this deck will be much much stronger after the next rotation. Its biggest enemy is black with Inifinite Obliteration right now. I mean it can end games just like that, especially with Goblin Dark-Dwellers and Jace's copying it from the graveyard. Extremely annoying card.
I hope they won't make another similar effect in Eldritch Moon. If they won't, the Ramp deck will be much safer to play, at least until Ulamogs and Wold Breakers rotate next year. Can't wait for October :).
Actually, our biggest enemy is humans, IMHO. I've never had any problems against any B/x control but against humans I only win like 1 in every 5, if that. I also play Reality Smasher main deck now and I'm telling you He is a house against B/x control. They don't have a clean answer for him other than To the slaughter (which rarely see play) and Ob Nixilis (which is too slow).
I still have a lot of W/x Humans at my LGS so I'm still playing with offshoots and returns main deck.
Have to agree here about Smasher. After my experience siding him in, I felt like I would rather be starting with him in the deck than waiting 'til game 2. Nissa's Pilgrimage into Smasher is crazy.
You're absolutely right! The problem with the Ramp package that does not use Ruin in their wake is that our curve is 1-2-3-5-8 instead of 1-2-4-6 (with ruin) this means that we basically have nothing to do in the first 4 turns other than maybe a Kozilek Return on turn 3 which stops us from ramping. Reality Smasher is a must be answered threat at 5 Mana which will surely eat a removal and most likely another card which they can't use to answer our bigger threats (Chandra, World Breaker, Atarka, Ulamog). It's just like the old R/G monsters where the deck plays Stormbreath. I'm thinking of playing a full set in the main and move either a renewal or chandra to the sideboard.
Ruin in their Wake has been tested extensively. The results showed that you weren't able to ramp to 10 as easily, thereby running Shrine of the Forsaken became very difficult. At the time current standard was dominated by Bant CoCo, B/W Control, W/B Eldrazi, and Humans. Ramping to World Breaker generally was deemed not good enough and losing shrines meant you couldn't include more than a few Ulamogs in the deck.
Things have changed, but I'm still not sure Ruin is worth it. Your mana base needs to run at the bare minimum 4 wastes, 4 Evolving wilds, on top of Traverse and Oath's. It's possible to make this work and my early ramp builds focused on ramping to 6 CMC and 7cmc. The deck lost a lot of inevitably against control and didn't go over the top like the 4 ulamog deck does.
The most success I've had with traditional ramp are Joshua's Iterations. The 4 Jaddi's really went a long way to shore up the Aggro match up, and the new version is so consistent that B/W Control, Grixis, Esper and various Midrange decks cannot beat it unless it's being targeted. Event then, it's not easy, players hands must line up with what you're trying to do.
Having posted on Joshua's Article, I agree with many of his deck choices. I'm no as high on Tracker as he is, but I can see where the card can run away with game. If you Meta is includes humans, his first version (4 Jaddi's) 4 Nissa's Renewal is really good against them. LIKE really good.
Edited to Add: GR Goggles was a great deck when the meta didn't shift it's focus to PW heavy builds. Most control decks fold to ramp, and even Season's Past is winnable, despite their shift to adding U to shore up certain match ups.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
I wasn't as high on Tracker until I started playing him myself. Sometimes you get a ramp spell extracted (or just don't have any in hand) and next turn just go Tracker and land drop. Many turns we have excess mana so saccing a couple clues and drawing into something like an Oath of Nissa / threat is fantastic. Then you have turns with him in play and go "land drop, Nissa's Renewal / Vegetation / ramp spell" and get so much value from that. In a deck that loses to itself due to consistency issues having more ways to dig further into the deck, and with a body attached fits well into the deck. Better than Advocate / Visionary that sometimes are run in these slots.
I'm going to play ~ Dickerson's most recent list this weekend for a PPTQ. I usually play some version of RG Beatdown but everyone is playing these GW Tokens decks or Kalitas red decks and acting like they're a genius and are "on the next level".
Ok "midrange is gr8 and I'm smart for playing mid-range" dude. Fine. You made me do this.
I don't really see why all the Ulamog hate. This card is great against slow decks. Who cares about Infinite Obliteration? Just knowingly SB in Smasher and Seer. If you know Infinite O is coming in, just diversify your threats. "Ulamog sux"? Nah dude, just play around their answers. This card is bananas and is the best answer to control decks who think they have inevitability.
The salt is real at my LGS. My friends are nice though, they just dislike like losing to 4 ulamogs. G1 there are very few decks that can fight through 4 Ulamogs and win. When the deck lost Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, we tried various different iterations. All of them came up with mixed results. Like many I worked really hard to see if ruin in their wake could work but the mana base gets so iffy, you lose the over the top aspects and you can only main so many Ramp spells before you hit air. Plus Hedron Archive wasn't run except as 1 or 2 ofs.
Honestly, if one of us finds the ideal Ruin in their Wake build I'd be all for it, but from what I'm seeing locally and on mtggoldfish daily results; None are running the card. I see 2cmc mana dorks being played over Ruin. It's a pet card of mine but I think I had to learn the hard lesson that sometimes a card isn't as good as you thought it was, no matter how hard you try. Once rotation approaches, the deck will undergo HUGE changes in it's ramp package, but that's straying from the topic.
Good luck Lugger! If you're expecting a lot of G/W Tokens, I can see Atarka being better against PW heavy builds. I still like to stone rain my opponents and World Breaker's recursion is great against non exile removal effects.
Lastly, if this deck were to go smaller, might it be possible to go with a package of 4 Smashers, 4 Seers, and 3-4 Breakers? This already seems like the GR Eldrazi deck from modern, maybe it's got legs. I haven't seen many of us try that direction yet. I still think 4 Ulamogs is the single best ramp target in standard (um it's one of the best high end targets in general).
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Hmm...well, it has T1 plays 8, t2 plays 8 and both versions focus on getting to T4 with 6-7 mana. That's fast. FAST, I hope it's as consistent as I want it to be because Ruin into Veggies is the LOLZ with opponents doing this:
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
Hmm...well, it has T1 plays 8, t2 plays 8 and both versions focus on getting to T4 with 6-7 mana. That's fast. FAST, I hope it's as consistent as I want it to be because Ruin into Veggies is the LOLZ with opponents doing this:
probably do able because of the 4 oaths and traverses.
Things have changed, but I'm still not sure Ruin is worth it. Your mana base needs to run at the bare minimum 4 wastes, 4 Evolving wilds, on top of Traverse and Oath's. It's possible to make this work and my early ramp builds focused on ramping to 6 CMC and 7cmc. The deck lost a lot of inevitably against control and didn't go over the top like the 4 ulamog deck does.
That's what i am playing and i have had far better results with it than with the "ramp to ulamog" deck.
At the beginning of SOI Standard a control deck didn't even exist, so i'm not sure what you mean.
If anything the ramp into ulamog build will lose against control because they can exile your ulamog and leave you naked for the rest of the game.
Either way the meta is currently shifting quite a bit.
CoCo + duskwatch recruiter + X is automatically a t1 deck and Reflector mage is just absolutely brutal for the ramp deck.
Whatever people decide to play i highly recommend having atarka in your deck and some kind of sweeper (chandra or kozilek's return)
The inherent problem with Ruin in their Wake and the reason that I consistently have not played it is because you have to surround it with so much "fluff" to make it consistent and how bad it is when it's not turned on, like playing evolving wilds which is a terrible land to topdeck when you need to draw an untapped land to play a ramp spell or a threat and one I think is a death sentence in Ramp. Ramp is very much a timing based deck and even being off of that for 1 turn can set you significantly far enough behind that you will lose the game. Also, if you include Traverse in your list which is very hard to turn on for an engine deck that isn't interested in interacting early, your graveyard will often not be full enough to utilize delirium, and including a card in your deck that both does not ramp and more than half the time does not tutor, is just diluting your overall strategy to the point where it becomes unnecessary, this is why I focus on cards like Hedron Archive in the current meta.
Also to your point about Ulamog not being successful. The entire reason that traditional Ramp CAN be successful is because of Ulamog, unless you change your entire direction (i.e. the Goggle's Ramp, which is more a burn deck with Ramp as the engine) World Breaker and Atarka are both great threats, but neither of them will usually win you the game single handedly. Why do you think Control has had to adopt Obliteration? Ulamog is so back breaking for strategies like that, that the only way they can combat them is to try to exile them before they hit. And it's not like ramp doesn't have tools to combat this, with Warping Wail, Thought-Knot, siding in additional threats etc. You change the whole dynamic of the match based on whether you are playing Ulamog or not. If you don't want to play Ulamog however I think best way to be successful without playing it would be to be on a strategy that couldn't utilize it at all. Goggle's for instance is very much on a 3-5-7 curve so atarka and world breaker naturally flow into the curve, but if you are trying to play Ruin in the wake you are on a 2-4-6-8-10 curve and would best be served trying to utilize Ulamog
Alright guys, I wasn't able to get comments from previous deck list postings as I designed them so I thought I'd at least post deck results after my local LGS tournament. I did a lot of playtesting online and seemed to have a fairly heavy control atmosphere which the SB reflects. The quick losses online were due to go wide strategies though so I went ahead and main decked against go wide.
My build is a little different and has some unique focus cards, namely a concentration on recursion from the graveyard.
Main Strengths: All decks are packing good removal. Some of it exile, some of it destroy. When you face exile threats, the thunder breaks become the best utility creatures. They are either going to take 4 from an attack or 3 from the removal. They are the main "finisher" for the deck. Decks will focus their exile removal on an early Thunderbreak Regent and take the damage from it and not have the removal for your late creatures or as a top draw I had one game where it was either take 4 from thudnerbreak or take 3 from Declaration in Stone while they were at 3 life. They also make your Dragonlord Atarka costly to remove as well and they will focus their removal on him first if you play a thunderbreak and a Dragonlord back to back. Against destroy removal the deck really shines. World Breaker already returns himself however Haven of the Spirit Dragon returns 9 main board threats (4 Dragonlord Atarka, 3 Thunderbreak Regent, 2 Chandra, Flamecaller. With all the mana the deck produces you will always want something to spend it on and sacrificing a land is not a big deal to do so.
Mainboard is setup against go wide strategy. Sideboard is setup against control strategy. This ended up being the appropriate chioce for my LGS as 3 of my 4 opponents were go wide and the other opponent couldnt handle early turn removal.
Game 1: Bant Collected Company 2-1 WIN
Round 1 - This battle was intense. An early turn Gideon with an emblem into a later avacyn made things complicated. Early game I recieved 10 damage before I removed his early creatures with Kozilek's Return due to a tapped land entering on my turn 3. Thankfully I had 1 Jaddi Offshoot on the board as a blocker. Mid game I removed his blue source with World Breaker and attempted another field wipe with a Kozilek's Return ability however he flashed in Avacyn to save his creatures. He failed to produce a 4th land again and passed turn back to me. I played Dragonlord Atarka to pop Avacyn out of the air and again he failed to produce a 4th land. A second World Breaker gave me the game from there.
Round 2: I didnt get the ramp I needed and 2 coco's later I gave the game to him.
Round 3: Jaddi into Nissa's Pilgrimage into Veggies into 3 World Breakers. I won. I also used Clip Wings on his flashed in avacyn which easily allowed me to get in all the damage I needed to do.
Game 2: Boros Equipment 2-0 WIN
Round 1: He produced a lot of creatures however Kozilek's Return kept them from being a threat. Declaration in Stone slowed my aggression late in the game by removing 2 World Breakers however using the clues I drew into a dragonlord Atarka to do spot removal and finish.
Round 2: He's drawing lands, I'm drawing all the ramp and very little creatures to use it on. He removes World Breaker with declaration in stone and with my 3rd (I had all 4 by the end of the game) nissa's pilgrimage I fail to find a 3rd forest thinning my deck as far down as it would go. I used Chandra, Flamecaller for a good 6 damage off of her +1 however he uses Burn Away to remove Chandra. At this point he is at 7 from using his pain lands as I exiled his basic plains lands with World Breaker. I play Thunderbreak and pass turn, he draws and passes back to me signifying he is probably out of removal. I attack and get him to 3, and pass back to him. He draws and immediately casts Declaration in stone on my Thunderbreak. Afterwards I reminded him that he takes 3 from targetting thunderbreak and proceeds to lose the game off of his own spell.
Game 3: Bant Collected Company 2-1 WIN
Dont remember as mucha bout this matchup except for the end. Game 1 he stalls on 3 lands and by the time he drops an Evolving Wilds I am dropping a world Breaker using Sanctum of Ugin to search for another World Breaker and I keep him from playing cards. Game 2 I'm slow at playing cards and he gets a Dragonlord Ojutai on the board with an established boardstate having 2 flipped Krallenhorde Howler cards. I give the game to him for sake of time.
Round 3. Kozilek's return clears the board after a coco. I have a Sanctum of Ugin onboard with extra land in my hand after having ramped to 7 land. I cast World Breaker which he immediately counters with Oujutai's Command and uses draw. I target his Lumbering falls for removal, trigger kozilek's Return ability from the graveyard and trigger my sanctum of ugin to search for a World Breaker. I think he was just mad from everyting coming together by just casting World Breaker and he blank face told me I couldn't do that since he countered it. I'm sure he knew I could just wanted to do what he could to save the game as at this point it would be mine in a couple turns him being out of cards and I about to get another world breaker to remove his 2nd lumbering falls the turn after. I didn't respond to him and simply called for a judge to remind him of casting vs enter the battlefield which he seemed to "yeah yeah". I did the triggers, got world breaker from the deck passed to him, he passed to me, I cast world breaker targetting lumbering falls and he scooped his cards.
Game 4 - 5 Color Cryptolith Rite Collected Company 0-2 LOSS
This was an interesting deck to play against. Sadly I didnt have the lands to do anything. Both games I mulled to 5. I never had more than 2 lands on the board either game. I kept the 5 card hands as I had an offshoot and 1 or 2 Oath of Nissa to dig for land. My deck really betrayed me this matchup and chocked on getting a win as I couldnt even cast Kozilek's Return before I was polished off. Both games he uses Loam Dryad to turn 3 Collected company and in game 2 he exiles my Nissa's Pilgrimage to successfully stall me out of the game (which I never even had 3 land to play it, but it definetely felt bad to know my fate ahead of time). Pretty wicked deck to go against, just wish I had the cards to play against him. Nothing really else to say there. I'd love to match up against him again.
Thoughts and deck changes: -1 Thunderbreak Regent MB +1 Chandra, Flamecaller MB. -2 Skin Invasion SB +2 Thunderbreak Regent SB. Thunderbreak was great at getting in what I needed to get in. I'd like to +1 Sanctum of Ugin MB but I'm not sure what to change it with. Im squeamish about not running a wastes to pull with Explosive Vegetation. I really love the Haven of the Spirit Dragon interaction with the deck and I'm squeamish about running 5 colorless lands but if I do change something it will probably be -1 Forest +1 Sanctum of Ugin. I really need that mountain to cast Kozilek's Return T3 and 11 red sources seems to be the correct number for most cases to do this. Also needing 2 red sources on turn 4 or 5 depending on the ramp setup means I need to have a dedicated red supply especially since I am going to be increasing my Chandra count main deck. Oath of Nissa has saved me on making her castable as well in past matches.
Interesting deck. Just a quick note: Haven doesn't return Chandra. It's only "Ugin" planeswalker cards.
Also, just noticed: Burn Away is Khans.
Lastly, I'm thinking Seasons Past is better when it gets back cards that are immediately impactful upon casting, not ramp spells. I don't know how it worked out for you in games where you boarded it in, but I would think in this deck it really is kind of a fringe card since you're not heavy on removal and not as varied in casting costs and versatility as the decks that generally run it.
I do love Thunderbreak Regent (in general) and I think it's an interesting choice. I feel like I'd have to test the list to see how I feel about it in this particular archetype. I myself have been looking for ways to pair it with Arlinn Kord in a deck because it's incredibly sick as a 6/6 with vigilance on top of the flying and the targeting clause.
You are correct about the Haven land, that was an oversight on my part when posting. The main intention for the land was graveyard return for the dragons while also providing color correction for dragons as well. I misposted burn from within as burn away as well.
You are correct about the Haven land, that was an oversight on my part when posting. The main intention for the land was graveyard return for the dragons while also providing color correction for dragons as well. I misposted burn from within as burn away as well.
Ah ok. I myself am thinking about trying one of those 22 land ramp decks that were posted. It's nice to get to the big stuff turn 4, and I've been seeing much less aggro. GW tokens is still tough though.
So, I've put a lot of time into playing with Josh's list, and after putting it through my LGS grinder today I've managed an 11-4 record. Not bad, it's definitely got legs and it's end game is extremely powerful.
Matches today:
Vs Bant Humans 0-2 Loss
Yeah this CoCo deck wrecked me, as in I never drew the things in time for them to matter. In short, got wrecked.
Vs Abzan Edlrazi 2-1 Win
Vs G/W Tokens 2-1 Win
Tough Match up, but I think the 4 Ulamog Version has game against them. It's a grind fest and I'm surprised by how resilient G/W Tokens actually is. It survived multiple K's Returns. I won due to my top decks being more powerful and my opponent making a few misplays.
Vs U/W Humans 2-1 Win
I had K's Return every single game, and casted them when they mattered.
Vs Bant CoCo 0-2 Loss
I'm seeing a pattern..
Vs B/W Control 2-0 Win
Stomp
Vs Gitrong Ramp 2-0 Win
My friend got mana screwed both games and missed lands drops early enough for me to get ahead. I'm sure ramp isn't favored here. We tested a few matches after and After SB he brings in a ton of hate.
So after a great day of gaming I went 5 Wins 2 Losses.
Not bad! But the Bant Humans match up is "T E R R I B L E." I drew like poop sure, COCO into Thalia's Lieutenant is GROSS. I have a PPTQ this coming Saturday and Am testing a build put together by a friend, It is based on Sam Blacks Aurora ramp deck. I'm leaning towards Ramp but if the Bant Humans deck sees an uptick I'll need to call an audible. There were oddles of Humans decks today...
I like the bellower in the list although I think it is much better in the B/G ramp because of manlands. Not having Chandra and Worldbreaker does make the list somewhat weak against U/x control deck.
1st Phase, building board, produce threats that create card Advantage.
2nd Phase Midgame grind covered with Trackers, Recruiters and Advocates.
3 Phase End game, while not as powerful as the 4 Ulamog version, I like the tool box like approach. Atarka is good against Walkers.
I'd need to sleeve it up, but I don't like that you can't tutor up Ulamog, or that World Breaker isn't used. I think the normal humans match ups aren't bad anymore, Mono White, G/W, U/W is all feel winnable with K's Returns and Breakers to trigger 2nd coming.
It's different and very innovative, I'd like to know more about how his match ups went and what the deck struggles against. The new onslaught of CoCo decks are going to push out B/W Control and controls builds in general. It's one of the reasons I'm going to start testing Seasons past and Aurora with 4 Languish + breakers and Ulamogs.
If, CoCo decks become popular again GR Goggles can make a come back, that deck was created to beat CoCo decks and it does so handily.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
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Round 1: Loss LATE DOH!
Round 2: Vs Abzan Control (featuring tons of Eldrazi) 2-0 Win
Highlights, G2: He told me his sided in 11 Discard effects. He drew none, until T8 G2. I got to ramp unhindered to Breaks and Ulamogs.
Round 3: Vs G/R Werewolves 2-0 Win
(I really hope this deck gets some upgrades, it's a Lightning Bolt effect away from getting there)
That said, G1: I stabilize at 1 and then blow up his board with Breaker into Ulamog eating Arlinn Kord and a land.
G2: he Mulled to 5. Nuff Said
Round 4: Vs Grixis Control 2-0 Win
My opponent said "I have like a 0% chance of beating you, I hate playing against your deck". He was right. Grixis is a good match up, and having played against a few times now with Josh's new build, I'm sure it's like 60/40 if not more.
Deck felt very powerful and consistent, looking forward to bigger events near me. Lastly, I love World Breaker, ahem, many opponents do not...oh well
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
http://articles.mtgcardmarket.com/2nd-place-at-the-scg-indy-classic-and-the-state-of-standard/
My current List:
4 Jaddi Offshoot
4 World Breaker
3 Reality Smasher
2 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger
Spell:
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Explosive Vegetation
2 Nissa's Renewal
3 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Cinder Glade
9 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Wastes
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
1 Reality Smasher
3 Gaea's Revenge
2 Warping Wail
1 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Rending Volley
2 Roast
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Sylvan Advocate
I still have a lot of W/x Humans at my LGS so I'm still playing with offshoots and returns main deck.
Obliteration is an issue if an opponent manages to cast it 2x. Even then if the threat is already on the board and cannot be removed fro some reason you can still fight through them. I do have a friend who Sides in 2 Obliteration, 4 Transgress, 2 Pick the Brain, plus Duress against me. He also plays GDD and I have had my entire threat base extracted in a few matches. I've seen him leave a ramp player with a single Tireless Tracker in his deck. So...Exile effects are great if they can snipe them out of our hands, most decks don't gun for ramp right now, The grixis player went as far to say "this deck isn't even apart of the meta, I don't prepare for it". Good to know.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Have to agree here about Smasher. After my experience siding him in, I felt like I would rather be starting with him in the deck than waiting 'til game 2. Nissa's Pilgrimage into Smasher is crazy.
If you are expecting humans you definitely want offshoots in the main, and should be on at least 3x K Return and at least 2 Chandra
Things have changed, but I'm still not sure Ruin is worth it. Your mana base needs to run at the bare minimum 4 wastes, 4 Evolving wilds, on top of Traverse and Oath's. It's possible to make this work and my early ramp builds focused on ramping to 6 CMC and 7cmc. The deck lost a lot of inevitably against control and didn't go over the top like the 4 ulamog deck does.
The most success I've had with traditional ramp are Joshua's Iterations. The 4 Jaddi's really went a long way to shore up the Aggro match up, and the new version is so consistent that B/W Control, Grixis, Esper and various Midrange decks cannot beat it unless it's being targeted. Event then, it's not easy, players hands must line up with what you're trying to do.
Having posted on Joshua's Article, I agree with many of his deck choices. I'm no as high on Tracker as he is, but I can see where the card can run away with game. If you Meta is includes humans, his first version (4 Jaddi's) 4 Nissa's Renewal is really good against them. LIKE really good.
Edited to Add:
GR Goggles was a great deck when the meta didn't shift it's focus to PW heavy builds. Most control decks fold to ramp, and even Season's Past is winnable, despite their shift to adding U to shore up certain match ups.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
EDH: Rakdos, Lord of Riots
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Nissa's Pilgrimage
3x Kozilek's Return
4x Explosive Vegetation
4x Hedron Archive
2x Nissa's Renewal
Planeswalkers: (3)
3x Chandra, Flamecaller
Creatures: (10)
3x Dragonlord Atarka
3x World Breaker
4x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4x Cinder Glade
4x Sanctum of Ugin
4x Shrine of Forgotten Gods
11x Forest
2x Mountain
1x Wastes
3x Reality Smasher
3x Jaddi Offshoot
3x Rending Volley
2x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Spatial Contortion
I'm going to play ~ Dickerson's most recent list this weekend for a PPTQ. I usually play some version of RG Beatdown but everyone is playing these GW Tokens decks or Kalitas red decks and acting like they're a genius and are "on the next level".
Ok "midrange is gr8 and I'm smart for playing mid-range" dude. Fine. You made me do this.
I don't really see why all the Ulamog hate. This card is great against slow decks. Who cares about Infinite Obliteration? Just knowingly SB in Smasher and Seer. If you know Infinite O is coming in, just diversify your threats. "Ulamog sux"? Nah dude, just play around their answers. This card is bananas and is the best answer to control decks who think they have inevitability.
Honestly, if one of us finds the ideal Ruin in their Wake build I'd be all for it, but from what I'm seeing locally and on mtggoldfish daily results; None are running the card. I see 2cmc mana dorks being played over Ruin. It's a pet card of mine but I think I had to learn the hard lesson that sometimes a card isn't as good as you thought it was, no matter how hard you try. Once rotation approaches, the deck will undergo HUGE changes in it's ramp package, but that's straying from the topic.
Good luck Lugger! If you're expecting a lot of G/W Tokens, I can see Atarka being better against PW heavy builds. I still like to stone rain my opponents and World Breaker's recursion is great against non exile removal effects.
Lastly, if this deck were to go smaller, might it be possible to go with a package of 4 Smashers, 4 Seers, and 3-4 Breakers? This already seems like the GR Eldrazi deck from modern, maybe it's got legs. I haven't seen many of us try that direction yet. I still think 4 Ulamogs is the single best ramp target in standard (um it's one of the best high end targets in general).
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/421457#paper
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/421001#paper
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Hmm...well, it has T1 plays 8, t2 plays 8 and both versions focus on getting to T4 with 6-7 mana. That's fast. FAST, I hope it's as consistent as I want it to be because Ruin into Veggies is the LOLZ with opponents doing this:
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
probably do able because of the 4 oaths and traverses.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
The inherent problem with Ruin in their Wake and the reason that I consistently have not played it is because you have to surround it with so much "fluff" to make it consistent and how bad it is when it's not turned on, like playing evolving wilds which is a terrible land to topdeck when you need to draw an untapped land to play a ramp spell or a threat and one I think is a death sentence in Ramp. Ramp is very much a timing based deck and even being off of that for 1 turn can set you significantly far enough behind that you will lose the game. Also, if you include Traverse in your list which is very hard to turn on for an engine deck that isn't interested in interacting early, your graveyard will often not be full enough to utilize delirium, and including a card in your deck that both does not ramp and more than half the time does not tutor, is just diluting your overall strategy to the point where it becomes unnecessary, this is why I focus on cards like Hedron Archive in the current meta.
Also to your point about Ulamog not being successful. The entire reason that traditional Ramp CAN be successful is because of Ulamog, unless you change your entire direction (i.e. the Goggle's Ramp, which is more a burn deck with Ramp as the engine) World Breaker and Atarka are both great threats, but neither of them will usually win you the game single handedly. Why do you think Control has had to adopt Obliteration? Ulamog is so back breaking for strategies like that, that the only way they can combat them is to try to exile them before they hit. And it's not like ramp doesn't have tools to combat this, with Warping Wail, Thought-Knot, siding in additional threats etc. You change the whole dynamic of the match based on whether you are playing Ulamog or not. If you don't want to play Ulamog however I think best way to be successful without playing it would be to be on a strategy that couldn't utilize it at all. Goggle's for instance is very much on a 3-5-7 curve so atarka and world breaker naturally flow into the curve, but if you are trying to play Ruin in the wake you are on a 2-4-6-8-10 curve and would best be served trying to utilize Ulamog
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
My build is a little different and has some unique focus cards, namely a concentration on recursion from the graveyard.
First the deck list I took:
3 Thunderbreak Regent
4 World Breaker
4 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Explosive Vegetation
4 Kozilek's Return
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Cinder Glade
4 Game Trail
1 Wastes
10 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Clip Wings
2 Skin Invasion
3 Roast
2 Seasons Past
Main Strengths: All decks are packing good removal. Some of it exile, some of it destroy. When you face exile threats, the thunder breaks become the best utility creatures. They are either going to take 4 from an attack or 3 from the removal. They are the main "finisher" for the deck. Decks will focus their exile removal on an early Thunderbreak Regent and take the damage from it and not have the removal for your late creatures or as a top draw I had one game where it was either take 4 from thudnerbreak or take 3 from Declaration in Stone while they were at 3 life. They also make your Dragonlord Atarka costly to remove as well and they will focus their removal on him first if you play a thunderbreak and a Dragonlord back to back. Against destroy removal the deck really shines. World Breaker already returns himself however Haven of the Spirit Dragon returns 9 main board threats (4 Dragonlord Atarka, 3 Thunderbreak Regent, 2 Chandra, Flamecaller. With all the mana the deck produces you will always want something to spend it on and sacrificing a land is not a big deal to do so.
Mainboard is setup against go wide strategy. Sideboard is setup against control strategy. This ended up being the appropriate chioce for my LGS as 3 of my 4 opponents were go wide and the other opponent couldnt handle early turn removal.
Game 1: Bant Collected Company 2-1 WIN
Round 1 - This battle was intense. An early turn Gideon with an emblem into a later avacyn made things complicated. Early game I recieved 10 damage before I removed his early creatures with Kozilek's Return due to a tapped land entering on my turn 3. Thankfully I had 1 Jaddi Offshoot on the board as a blocker. Mid game I removed his blue source with World Breaker and attempted another field wipe with a Kozilek's Return ability however he flashed in Avacyn to save his creatures. He failed to produce a 4th land again and passed turn back to me. I played Dragonlord Atarka to pop Avacyn out of the air and again he failed to produce a 4th land. A second World Breaker gave me the game from there.
Round 2: I didnt get the ramp I needed and 2 coco's later I gave the game to him.
Round 3: Jaddi into Nissa's Pilgrimage into Veggies into 3 World Breakers. I won. I also used Clip Wings on his flashed in avacyn which easily allowed me to get in all the damage I needed to do.
Game 2: Boros Equipment 2-0 WIN
Round 1: He produced a lot of creatures however Kozilek's Return kept them from being a threat. Declaration in Stone slowed my aggression late in the game by removing 2 World Breakers however using the clues I drew into a dragonlord Atarka to do spot removal and finish.
Round 2: He's drawing lands, I'm drawing all the ramp and very little creatures to use it on. He removes World Breaker with declaration in stone and with my 3rd (I had all 4 by the end of the game) nissa's pilgrimage I fail to find a 3rd forest thinning my deck as far down as it would go. I used Chandra, Flamecaller for a good 6 damage off of her +1 however he uses Burn Away to remove Chandra. At this point he is at 7 from using his pain lands as I exiled his basic plains lands with World Breaker. I play Thunderbreak and pass turn, he draws and passes back to me signifying he is probably out of removal. I attack and get him to 3, and pass back to him. He draws and immediately casts Declaration in stone on my Thunderbreak. Afterwards I reminded him that he takes 3 from targetting thunderbreak and proceeds to lose the game off of his own spell.
Game 3: Bant Collected Company 2-1 WIN
Dont remember as mucha bout this matchup except for the end. Game 1 he stalls on 3 lands and by the time he drops an Evolving Wilds I am dropping a world Breaker using Sanctum of Ugin to search for another World Breaker and I keep him from playing cards. Game 2 I'm slow at playing cards and he gets a Dragonlord Ojutai on the board with an established boardstate having 2 flipped Krallenhorde Howler cards. I give the game to him for sake of time.
Round 3. Kozilek's return clears the board after a coco. I have a Sanctum of Ugin onboard with extra land in my hand after having ramped to 7 land. I cast World Breaker which he immediately counters with Oujutai's Command and uses draw. I target his Lumbering falls for removal, trigger kozilek's Return ability from the graveyard and trigger my sanctum of ugin to search for a World Breaker. I think he was just mad from everyting coming together by just casting World Breaker and he blank face told me I couldn't do that since he countered it. I'm sure he knew I could just wanted to do what he could to save the game as at this point it would be mine in a couple turns him being out of cards and I about to get another world breaker to remove his 2nd lumbering falls the turn after. I didn't respond to him and simply called for a judge to remind him of casting vs enter the battlefield which he seemed to "yeah yeah". I did the triggers, got world breaker from the deck passed to him, he passed to me, I cast world breaker targetting lumbering falls and he scooped his cards.
Game 4 - 5 Color Cryptolith Rite Collected Company 0-2 LOSS
This was an interesting deck to play against. Sadly I didnt have the lands to do anything. Both games I mulled to 5. I never had more than 2 lands on the board either game. I kept the 5 card hands as I had an offshoot and 1 or 2 Oath of Nissa to dig for land. My deck really betrayed me this matchup and chocked on getting a win as I couldnt even cast Kozilek's Return before I was polished off. Both games he uses Loam Dryad to turn 3 Collected company and in game 2 he exiles my Nissa's Pilgrimage to successfully stall me out of the game (which I never even had 3 land to play it, but it definetely felt bad to know my fate ahead of time). Pretty wicked deck to go against, just wish I had the cards to play against him. Nothing really else to say there. I'd love to match up against him again.
Thoughts and deck changes: -1 Thunderbreak Regent MB +1 Chandra, Flamecaller MB. -2 Skin Invasion SB +2 Thunderbreak Regent SB. Thunderbreak was great at getting in what I needed to get in. I'd like to +1 Sanctum of Ugin MB but I'm not sure what to change it with. Im squeamish about not running a wastes to pull with Explosive Vegetation. I really love the Haven of the Spirit Dragon interaction with the deck and I'm squeamish about running 5 colorless lands but if I do change something it will probably be -1 Forest +1 Sanctum of Ugin. I really need that mountain to cast Kozilek's Return T3 and 11 red sources seems to be the correct number for most cases to do this. Also needing 2 red sources on turn 4 or 5 depending on the ramp setup means I need to have a dedicated red supply especially since I am going to be increasing my Chandra count main deck. Oath of Nissa has saved me on making her castable as well in past matches.
Sin Prodder is a test card. Online it attracted early removal or flipped stupid stuff like Dragonlord Atarka which against control was nice. It takes the spot of Kozilek's Return main deck. Its still just a test card. Seasons past is great against black based removal. I might experiment with other SB cards in place of sin prodder. Roast is for Kalitas traitor of ghet and cards like that. Clip wings is great against Avacyn and in, Dragonlord Ojutai, and in response to the ETB effect of Dragonlord Silumgar which I've had the pleasure of doing online.
Thats my report. Let me know what you think.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
Also, just noticed: Burn Away is Khans.
Lastly, I'm thinking Seasons Past is better when it gets back cards that are immediately impactful upon casting, not ramp spells. I don't know how it worked out for you in games where you boarded it in, but I would think in this deck it really is kind of a fringe card since you're not heavy on removal and not as varied in casting costs and versatility as the decks that generally run it.
I do love Thunderbreak Regent (in general) and I think it's an interesting choice. I feel like I'd have to test the list to see how I feel about it in this particular archetype. I myself have been looking for ways to pair it with Arlinn Kord in a deck because it's incredibly sick as a 6/6 with vigilance on top of the flying and the targeting clause.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
Ah ok. I myself am thinking about trying one of those 22 land ramp decks that were posted. It's nice to get to the big stuff turn 4, and I've been seeing much less aggro. GW tokens is still tough though.
Matches today:
Vs Bant Humans 0-2 Loss
Yeah this CoCo deck wrecked me, as in I never drew the things in time for them to matter. In short, got wrecked.
Vs Abzan Edlrazi 2-1 Win
Vs G/W Tokens 2-1 Win
Tough Match up, but I think the 4 Ulamog Version has game against them. It's a grind fest and I'm surprised by how resilient G/W Tokens actually is. It survived multiple K's Returns. I won due to my top decks being more powerful and my opponent making a few misplays.
Vs U/W Humans 2-1 Win
I had K's Return every single game, and casted them when they mattered.
Vs Bant CoCo 0-2 Loss
I'm seeing a pattern..
Vs B/W Control 2-0 Win
Stomp
Vs Gitrong Ramp 2-0 Win
My friend got mana screwed both games and missed lands drops early enough for me to get ahead. I'm sure ramp isn't favored here. We tested a few matches after and After SB he brings in a ton of hate.
So after a great day of gaming I went 5 Wins 2 Losses.
Not bad! But the Bant Humans match up is "T E R R I B L E." I drew like poop sure, COCO into Thalia's Lieutenant is GROSS. I have a PPTQ this coming Saturday and Am testing a build put together by a friend, It is based on Sam Blacks Aurora ramp deck. I'm leaning towards Ramp but if the Bant Humans deck sees an uptick I'll need to call an audible. There were oddles of Humans decks today...
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
innovatation
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpman16/9-32-decklists-2016-05-29
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpmin16/9-32-decklists-2016-05-29
Just do CTRL+F and Vegatation.
I want comments on Juston Cohen's Ramp list.
2 Sylvan Advocate
4 Deathcap Cultivator
3 Duskwatch Recruiter
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
3 Ulvenwald Hydra
1 Woodland Bellower
4 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Explosive Vegetation
4 Oath of Nissa
Land - 24
4 Evolving Wilds
12 Forest
1 Mirrorpool
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Mountain
1 Rogue's Passage
4 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Mountain
2 Lambholt Pacifist
1 World Breaker
2 Radiant Flames
1 Plains
1 Blisterpod
2 Lightning Axe
2 Reality Smasher
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Focuses on all 3 game phases:
1st Phase, building board, produce threats that create card Advantage.
2nd Phase Midgame grind covered with Trackers, Recruiters and Advocates.
3 Phase End game, while not as powerful as the 4 Ulamog version, I like the tool box like approach. Atarka is good against Walkers.
I'd need to sleeve it up, but I don't like that you can't tutor up Ulamog, or that World Breaker isn't used. I think the normal humans match ups aren't bad anymore, Mono White, G/W, U/W is all feel winnable with K's Returns and Breakers to trigger 2nd coming.
It's different and very innovative, I'd like to know more about how his match ups went and what the deck struggles against. The new onslaught of CoCo decks are going to push out B/W Control and controls builds in general. It's one of the reasons I'm going to start testing Seasons past and Aurora with 4 Languish + breakers and Ulamogs.
If, CoCo decks become popular again GR Goggles can make a come back, that deck was created to beat CoCo decks and it does so handily.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn