I would split 2/2 world breaker and dromoka. I don't think world breaker is that good in an aggro heavy meta. I'm also thinking of playing jaddi offshoot and hangarback to buy us time.
Hangarback can be a wincon. Advocate is better for early game. I'd like to keep hangarback cos late game he's a 4/4 5/5 that can only be exiled and that gets bigger every turn, while advocate is and will always be a 4/5 vigilance, nothing more
I would split 2/2 world breaker and dromoka. I don't think world breaker is that good in an aggro heavy meta. I'm also thinking of playing jaddi offshoot and hangarback to buy us time.
I say 25 lands -1 Offshoot and -1 Atarka, +3 Traverse the Ulvenwald.
Traverse fixes mana early and gets you the bomb you need later.
Instead of Atarka how about cut Ulamog and put him in the sideboard for midrange/control match up? He is way too slow against aggro and without shrine or hedron archive he is even slower.
Hangarback can be a wincon. Advocate is better for early game. I'd like to keep hangarback cos late game he's a 4/4 5/5 that can only be exiled and that gets bigger every turn, while advocate is and will always be a 4/5 vigilance, nothing more
I see you point but this deck is worried about the early game, not the late game and turn by turn advocate would get more damage in due to vigilance and going up to a 4/5 without having to invest mana.
Things being equal, if played on turn 2, it would take 2 turns to get HB to the same toughness as advocate and you are saving one mana each turn for that which means you will be confronted with the decision between casting a ramp spell (pilgrimage/vegetation or archive) or getting another counter. I do not think there is too much to think about, you cast your spell, but regardless the decision would come up.
For that reason its likely that one uses hangarback as a speed bump instead; you get the tokens then they are used in the same fashion and it did its job.
Advocate however might be able to buy you more time by being larger than the creatures on the other side of the table, it might even draw out some removal taking up the opponents turn
Having vigilance allows you to attack without worrying about defense, less things to worry about, less mistakes to make.
Also works well with Chandra, being able to attack and protect her at the same time.
Advocate doesnt get killed by Eldrazi displacer or worldbreaker against the mirror, and getting it exiled does feel as bad as getting HB exiled.
HB is still a good card and obviously a turn 8 HB for 4 with no cards in hand or on the board is better, especially when it triggers sanctum of Ugin.
I would split 2/2 world breaker and dromoka. I don't think world breaker is that good in an aggro heavy meta. I'm also thinking of playing jaddi offshoot and hangarback to buy us time.
I say 25 lands -1 Offshoot and -1 Atarka, +3 Traverse the Ulvenwald.
Traverse fixes mana early and gets you the bomb you need later.
Instead of Atarka how about cut Ulamog and put him in the sideboard for midrange/control match up? He is way too slow against aggro and without shrine or hedron archive he is even slower.
Dont know if you have read this yet http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/shadows-over-innistrad-constructed-set-review-green/
Figure a pros' opinion is worth more than mine.
I definitely think it FANTASTIC!!!!!
Testing will prove me wrong
It should be Exceptionally great in the Ruin in their Wake version by increasing the % of it becoming a Rampant growth.
I can see the Atarka/Ulamog exchange, what about the manabase ~ FOCUS
I would split 2/2 world breaker and dromoka. I don't think world breaker is that good in an aggro heavy meta. I'm also thinking of playing jaddi offshoot and hangarback to buy us time.
I say 25 lands -1 Offshoot and -1 Atarka, +3 Traverse the Ulvenwald.
Traverse fixes mana early and gets you the bomb you need later.
Instead of Atarka how about cut Ulamog and put him in the sideboard for midrange/control match up? He is way too slow against aggro and without shrine or hedron archive he is even slower.
Dont know if you have read this yet http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/shadows-over-innistrad-constructed-set-review-green/
Figure a pros' opinion is worth more than mine.
I definitely think it FANTASTIC!!!!!
Testing will prove me wrong
It should be Exceptionally great in the Ruin in their Wake version by increasing the % of it becoming a Rampant growth.
I can see the Atarka/Ulamog exchange, what about the manabase ~ FOCUS
The manabase seems great. No shrines, though, and that's why I suggest the ulamog - atarka exchange.
I would split 2/2 world breaker and dromoka. I don't think world breaker is that good in an aggro heavy meta. I'm also thinking of playing jaddi offshoot and hangarback to buy us time.
I say 25 lands -1 Offshoot and -1 Atarka, +3 Traverse the Ulvenwald.
Traverse fixes mana early and gets you the bomb you need later.
Instead of Atarka how about cut Ulamog and put him in the sideboard for midrange/control match up? He is way too slow against aggro and without shrine or hedron archive he is even slower.
Dont know if you have read this yet http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/shadows-over-innistrad-constructed-set-review-green/
Figure a pros' opinion is worth more than mine.
I definitely think it FANTASTIC!!!!!
Testing will prove me wrong
It should be Exceptionally great in the Ruin in their Wake version by increasing the % of it becoming a Rampant growth.
I can see the Atarka/Ulamog exchange, what about the manabase ~ FOCUS
The manabase seems great. No shrines, though, and that's why I suggest the ulamog - atarka exchange.
Instead of going with Advocate, I'm planning on going with 4 Jaddi and 2 Nahiri in the list. Ramp Package would be only Nissa's Pilgrimage & Explosive Vegetation. Instead of trying to make Ruin in the wake work, I'll be more focused on getting my creatures for early chump blocking or gaining life until I stabilize.
I'll be adding the list soon after I've got it finalized.
I felt that a good ratio of SOI Land : Battle Land is 1 : 2. You want SOI Land in early game, Battle Land late game, at the same time SOI Land works great when you have basics in hand, Battle Land works best with Basics in play. Hence why more Battle Land over SOI Land, because at late game you'll likely have more basics already in play (DUH) while not much basics in hand. 3 Sanctum of Ugin so we can leave the Traverse the Ulvenwald more for Creature tutor when it has Delirium. Not going for Waste opens this as a Creature Tutor over land tutor. 1 Blighted Woodland because it does 2 thing, Ramps and fills in as 1 for Delirium. The purpose of Mirrorpool is to work as a catcher, if they were to kill Atarka or Dromoka, we would be able to clone a copy of it and sacrifice the intended target to legendary rule, same thing for Ulamog, this would in turn shut down Declaration in Stone. It's one of the only ways to fizzle it and not much other options open to Naya colors. It's still WIP so I'll see how far it'll go
No more Advocate, as it doesn't do well in this deck. It's good as a blocker but with the meta shifting towards having either more creatures or punishment for throwing them out all together (Declaration in Stone), it's a blown out in this deck where you can't really benefit from the other bonus he has. Jaddi Offshoot has convinced me of it's usefulness. You may not block with it, but with more than 1 in play, each land drop heals you like no other. Even if you ain't ramping with ramp spells, the land drop per turn is enough to withstand early onslaught. With a body of 0/3 also helps keeping it alive even when we sweep it with Kozilek's Return. The key point for ramp now is to stabilize before starting to throw out our fatties to win. If they want to waste a spell on killing the Jaddi Offshoot? It's our win.
2 Ulamog instead of just 1 because I'm looking at Inevitable option of having 1 removed due to all the hand disruption spells. Full suit of World Breaker still because playing any lesser makes me feel like I might as well splash black to play Jund. Ramp exist to play fatties. 2 of each Dragonlord for the same reason, You need to anticipate that they are automatic removal suckers, they will eat a removal or else you win. Dromoka helps to stall, Atarka helps to Kill problematic creatures or planeswalkers.
Reduced Kozelik's return instead due to the meta running rampant with x/3 creatures. 2 is ideal enough for me at the moment. Full set of 3cmc and 4cmc ramp spell, not for the purpose of throwing out a world breaker as fast as possible, but to assist in stabilizing before having enough battlefield control to start throwing out our fatties to pave the way to victory. 3 Traverse the Ulvenwald, early game yes it helps to fix your mana base like how LSV puts, late game it'll help to find the targets we want to use our mana on. 3 Chandra either as our 4 damage sweeper or to close games, 2 Nahiri because she not only gives card advantage, she also exiles (Key Importance) either an enemy creature, artifact or Enchantment which are causing problem for us. 3 Oath of nissa for filtering into threats either in terms of walker or creature.
1 extra K Return when you need it, 3 different Wraith spells for you to see which is more fitting for the match up. Tragic Arrogance helps against other Walker builds, Descend Upon the Sinful against anything that kinda persist. Roast and Clip Wings for specific match ups where you'll need them for direct removals, Void Winnower & Conduit of Ruin is for Mirror, Radiant Flame is simply a 3 damage sweeper in this build.
I'll be likely to bring this for a testing run sometime soon, hoping that it'll be ideal enough after more iteration for gameday. Else I'll just be piloting a BW Control/Midrange and shift this deck over to Jund Midrange instead.
I went 3-0 at today's LGS standard. Played against Wu Humans, Gr elves and Gwb ramp.
Tried out 22 lands to minimise mana flooding, and other than one game where land drops were slow, the 4 Oath of Nissa and 4 Traverse the ulvenwald gave me the necessary early land drops and then served well as tutors late game. Managed to do a World Breaker combo to exile Always Watching and trigger Kozilek's return to kill Dragonlord Ojutai and Archangel of Tithes.
Will consider switching Ulvenwald hydra for Oblivion sower in the sideboard for the guaranteed land ramp and reach and switch 1 Shrine of the forsaken gods for 1 Blighted woodland as extra ramp option. Also, Endless one is a good flexible card right now in an aggro-heavy meta. Either early blocker or triggers Return and Sanctum late game. Hedron crawler is a better dork to trigger delirium due to its 2 card types.
I'll move 1 Ulamog to the sideboard once I can get another Chandra. Ordered my Hydras so that's next on the testing.
Will run more trials of this 22 lands version to see if I need to side 1 Forest/Mountain for land drop consistency.
I went 3-0 at today's LGS standard. Played against Wu Humans, Gr elves and Gwb ramp.
Tried out 22 lands to minimise mana flooding, and other than one game where land drops were slow, the 4 Oath of Nissa and 4 Traverse the ulvenwald gave me the necessary early land drops and then served well as tutors late game. Managed to do a World Breaker combo to exile Always Watching and trigger Kozilek's return to kill Dragonlord Ojutai and Archangel of Tithes.
Will consider switching Ulvenwald hydra for Oblivion sower in the sideboard for the guaranteed land ramp and reach and switch 1 Shrine of the forsaken gods for 1 Blighted woodland as extra ramp option. Also, Endless one is a good flexible card right now in an aggro-heavy meta. Either early blocker or triggers Return and Sanctum late game. Hedron crawler is a better dork to trigger delirium due to its 2 card types.
22 Lands sound very risky. Maybe take out 2 sylvan advocate for a forest and a mountain? How's advocate against human? Is he better than Hangarback Walker?
I'll move 1 Ulamog to the sideboard once I can get another Chandra. Ordered my Hydras so that's next on the testing.
Will run more trials of this 22 lands version to see if I need to side 1 Forest/Mountain for land drop consistency.
22 lands that nuts.....
I wanna talk about lightning Axe.
Great removal for ONE mana > but we have to discard a card.
So what to discard:
Kozilek's return
Extra lands, especially from Nissa'a Pilgrimage
WorldBreaker, assuming you cant cast it within 1-2 turns (buy it back later)
Redundant ramp spells or non-delirum traverses.
Speaking of delirium, Axe can help enable that, its an instant. Imagine discard hedron crawler with it, you are only a sorcery away from delirium.....
So thinking about all of this makes me think of Main deck K.Returns, 2/3. I think I would only play 3 Axe at the most. only 3 Chandra, 4 WB for discard and to get the 2nd part of K.rtn. I would have 2/3 Drownyard temples as added discard fodder plus the cards acceleration ability of spending 3 mana to put it into play from the grave for 3 mana.
Just my opinion, but Warping Wail is often the best card in the deck and so few play it. It's great early and still good late and is very versatile with all 3 modes being something we want. I also feel that Jaddi Offshoot is a trap card, often being irrelevant to a match.
So, the Hydra is really really good, I can't tell you all how important it is to the build. It gets starts a chain of events that allow you to load up on threats once you have an Eldrazi in hand (which is quite often).
Vs Mardu Walkers (my friends build) 5-0, after SB 3-0
Vs Bant Humans 3-2 losses in testing, but he I let him SB to see how the match up went, and it doesn't feel that bad, Chandra, and Returns are important. After SB bring in Volleys, and Jaddi's. It's winnable, but any quick aggro deck will always be this deck's soft spot.
Vs B/W Control 2-0, it wasn't close. I landed Hydra T4, got sanctum, he removes hydra, I play another one, (now an 9/9) he has to remove it, I proceed to land x3 world breakers and have Atarka and Ulamog in hand. Both games went like this, and T4 6-7 mana was on quite often.
Vs R/G Werwolves we tested and I let him SB against me went 3 - 2 in testing. First game I mull to 5, YES 5, I win here off of Traverse tutor up Ulamog, blow up his board, and exile Arlinn + the enchament that makes all dudes tap for mana. He wasn't happy...I was
I purposely did not SB because I wanted to see what the core of the deck could do untouched. It was pretty good ;)SB is still being worked on, for those of you (like myself) playing PPTQ's include a few copies of Rending Volley, it hits all the current mono W builds, and Bant CoCo.
You can go with a more tuned anti aggro list, but you;re not as quick, and lose game against the B/W Control match up which is winnable as well.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
I've been testing a few different cards in my GR build, and I've been getting some good results with them.
Duskwatch Recruiter is the first big one, I've been trying it in favor of a manadork, and it's actually pretty effective at the role. Even unflipped, it has a really useful ability that can re-gas you at instant speed.
Tireless Tracker Is amazing, and works so well with the number of lands ramp plays.
Now the odd one, but again, I've found it so good, especially in concert with the Tracker...
Tamiyo's Journal Ever had one of those games where you're just outta gas? You have all the mana you'll ever need, but nothing to cast with it? Tap this sucker, sac three clues that you can have easily generated with the tracker, grow the tracker by three if he's still chilling on the battlefield, and get to tutor anything at all with no reveal! Emergency boardwipe? That last ramp spell to get you to your big guys? The big guys themselves? It just... works!
So, the Hydra is really really good, I can't tell you all how important it is to the build. It gets starts a chain of events that allow you to load up on threats once you have an Eldrazi in hand (which is quite often).
Vs Mardu Walkers (my friends build) 5-0, after SB 3-0
Vs Bant Humans 3-2 losses in testing, but he I let him SB to see how the match up went, and it doesn't feel that bad, Chandra, and Returns are important. After SB bring in Volleys, and Jaddi's. It's winnable, but any quick aggro deck will always be this deck's soft spot.
Vs B/W Control 2-0, it wasn't close. I landed Hydra T4, got sanctum, he removes hydra, I play another one, (now an 9/9) he has to remove it, I proceed to land x3 world breakers and have Atarka and Ulamog in hand. Both games went like this, and T4 6-7 mana was on quite often.
Vs R/G Werwolves we tested and I let him SB against me went 3 - 2 in testing. First game I mull to 5, YES 5, I win here off of Traverse tutor up Ulamog, blow up his board, and exile Arlinn + the enchament that makes all dudes tap for mana. He wasn't happy...I was
I purposely did not SB because I wanted to see what the core of the deck could do untouched. It was pretty good ;)SB is still being worked on, for those of you (like myself) playing PPTQ's include a few copies of Rending Volley, it hits all the current mono W builds, and Bant CoCo.
You can go with a more tuned anti aggro list, but you;re not as quick, and lose game against the B/W Control match up which is winnable as well.
Hydra is surely good, no question about it. the problem is that looking at your list, racerxen, your ONLY answer to early threats are the 3 Kozilek's Return.
If they play Sylvan Advocate, Bygone Bishop, the raptor etc. your only option is to hope for a chandra (you even play 3 instead of 4), or wait for 7 mana to cast Kozilek from the GY (meaning 2 cards).
On top of this, you start casting big creatures by turn 4-5, MAX 1 per turn. If they already have board position (like every midrange and fast aggro usually do by then)....do you think a 6/6 7/7 reach is enough for you to survive? Expecially if they use a couple of removals and keep hitting you with their 2/3 3/3 creatures.
It is a nice list, but it looks a bit weak against fast aggro or midrange decks with a nice start.
So, the Hydra is really really good, I can't tell you all how important it is to the build. It gets starts a chain of events that allow you to load up on threats once you have an Eldrazi in hand (which is quite often).
Vs Mardu Walkers (my friends build) 5-0, after SB 3-0
Vs Bant Humans 3-2 losses in testing, but he I let him SB to see how the match up went, and it doesn't feel that bad, Chandra, and Returns are important. After SB bring in Volleys, and Jaddi's. It's winnable, but any quick aggro deck will always be this deck's soft spot.
Vs B/W Control 2-0, it wasn't close. I landed Hydra T4, got sanctum, he removes hydra, I play another one, (now an 9/9) he has to remove it, I proceed to land x3 world breakers and have Atarka and Ulamog in hand. Both games went like this, and T4 6-7 mana was on quite often.
Vs R/G Werwolves we tested and I let him SB against me went 3 - 2 in testing. First game I mull to 5, YES 5, I win here off of Traverse tutor up Ulamog, blow up his board, and exile Arlinn + the enchament that makes all dudes tap for mana. He wasn't happy...I was
I purposely did not SB because I wanted to see what the core of the deck could do untouched. It was pretty good ;)SB is still being worked on, for those of you (like myself) playing PPTQ's include a few copies of Rending Volley, it hits all the current mono W builds, and Bant CoCo.
You can go with a more tuned anti aggro list, but you;re not as quick, and lose game against the B/W Control match up which is winnable as well.
looking forward to the PPTQ report.
Take good notes~!
I went 3-0 at today's LGS standard. Played against Wu Humans, Gr elves and Gwb ramp.
Tried out 22 lands to minimise mana flooding, and other than one game where land drops were slow, the 4 Oath of Nissa and 4 Traverse the ulvenwald gave me the necessary early land drops and then served well as tutors late game. Managed to do a World Breaker combo to exile Always Watching and trigger Kozilek's return to kill Dragonlord Ojutai and Archangel of Tithes.
Will consider switching Ulvenwald hydra for Oblivion sower in the sideboard for the guaranteed land ramp and reach and switch 1 Shrine of the forsaken gods for 1 Blighted woodland as extra ramp option. Also, Endless one is a good flexible card right now in an aggro-heavy meta. Either early blocker or triggers Return and Sanctum late game. Hedron crawler is a better dork to trigger delirium due to its 2 card types.
22 Lands sound very risky. Maybe take out 2 sylvan advocate for a forest and a mountain? How's advocate against human? Is he better than Hangarback Walker?
I treat the Traverse as if it was an Evolving Wilds (1 cmc = CIPT land) so it feels like I have 26 lands. This setup is due to the aggro-heavy meta where manaflood at early game will kill you. Will move to 23/24 with 8 tutors once the meta stabilised.
Hangarback is not so good vs Humans cos they're aggressive from turn 2 and it will only be 1/1 by then and won't trade with theirs like Advocate and Endless One.
Just my opinion, but Warping Wail is often the best card in the deck and so few play it. It's great early and still good late and is very versatile with all 3 modes being something we want. I also feel that Jaddi Offshoot is a trap card, often being irrelevant to a match.
I agree that it is a good card; but I don't think it is the best card in the deck. Warping Wail I feel is a card that is meta dependent. If you are seeing a lot of control; then it is a great way to stop them from playing sorcery speed spells that pick apart our hand. It can also help create a blocker at instant speed if needed; which can also help you ramp that turn or the next.
In my meta; I don't see a whole lot of control. I do see Bant CoCo; various agro decks (from home brews to T1 decks); a few sub-par (budget) ramp decks and maybe 1 person who actually plays various control decks (he likes playing a different deck every few weeks). For me while it would be effective against one player most weeks; against most of the others it wouldn't be as good as running something else (KR, Rending Volley or Offshoot's). Which is why I'm not currently running any in my 75.
Redirus91 wrote:
22 lands that nuts.....
I wanna talk about lightning Axe.
Great removal for ONE mana > but we have to discard a card.
So what to discard:
Kozilek's return
Extra lands, especially from Nissa'a Pilgrimage
WorldBreaker, assuming you cant cast it within 1-2 turns (buy it back later)
Redundant ramp spells or non-delirum traverses.
Speaking of delirium, Axe can help enable that, its an instant. Imagine discard hedron crawler with it, you are only a sorcery away from delirium.....
So thinking about all of this makes me think of Main deck K.Returns, 2/3. I think I would only play 3 Axe at the most. only 3 Chandra, 4 WB for discard and to get the 2nd part of K.rtn. I would have 2/3 Drownyard temples as added discard fodder plus the cards acceleration ability of spending 3 mana to put it into play from the grave for 3 mana.
I agree 22 lands seem very dangerous to me. I've had plenty of hands that I had to mulligan due to only have 1 or 2 lands or no forest in the opening 7; and that is with me running 25 lands.
I would rather run Rending Volley over Lightning Axe. My reasoning is that while they both cost 1 mana; and Rending Volley only does 4 damage instead of 5 and can only hit white or blue creatures; the discard that early in the game in my opinion is card disadvantage on our part. I don't want to 2 for 1 myself to kill something on turn 2 or 3 by having to discard a card to play something. While it might help with delirium; I just don't feel that it is a good play on our part that early. Right now with how the meta is looking after the Baltimore; Rending Volley hits just about all of the major threats that the other decks are running and that we have to worry about.
Psy
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Currently Playing:
Jeskai Control:42-23-5 Elves: 44-31-3 Red-Aggro: 18-9-0 B/G Energy 21-6-0
It's also great against most Aggro decks too. It takes out almost all of the white Humans threats early, most early vampires, and Thing in the Ice which is a card the deck otherwise has trouble beating. About the only matchup I'd side any out against is Bant Company, but even there, they board in Declaration in Stone and it still kills Jace or can accelerate you. Also, Protecting against Transgress and Duress from the black decks is so important to winning that matchup and it's also the best card in the mirror.
So, in regards to the deck's match vs aggro. We have to be honest and say, we're not the best deck to combat aggro. Does that mean we punt it? No, I think between 3 Kozilek's Return, 3 Chandra, Flamecaller and 2 MD Dragonlord Atarka we can stabilize game 1. What are the issues I'm having ?
Oath of Nissa has at time made me bottom a return and I can actually recall moments when I knew that was the turn I'd lose the game. We have to ask the question, do we need this card? Yes, do we cut it to 3 copies? I think yes, we want to draw our sweeper effects, and not have to bottom it them in hopes that we top deck it "again". I think 3 Oath's is correct, and if you are building the mana base correctly you should have at minimum 14-15 greens sources, with 8-12 red sources (we can count Traverse since it really does help fix out colors early on, I rarely pop off an Oath unless I'm searching for a specific target, like a threat or a sanctum). This is the tricky part about Turns 1-4, I think it's correct to wait for a ramp spell rather then burn an Oath to hit a land drop (you do this when you are really mana screwed, which is why this deck needs to run at minimum 23 lands, I think 24 is ideal, 25...eh) .
Tuning the deck to be anti aggro, we can morph into a deck that can have a much better game against aggro G2, I'm not sure we want to completely change up what the deck does in order to beat 1 deck, one of which can be beaten. It's not rally, and by boarding in Volley's , +1 Return and + 1 chandra, + 4 Offshoots, we treat the match up like mono red. That said, we either have the sweeper or we don't and there's no way around it. We can try and gum up the ground (I posted in MTG spikes and I was the one that said we should consider running Jaddi's in the main, and hangarbacks again) but...reflector mage makes Hanagrback really sad. Advocate, might be fine since he fills our 2 drops slot, but Jaddi is value all around, net life and blocks. We really do don't care about removing early aggro, we care about removing creatures that come down T4 (cmc 4 and up) those usually have ETB effects that screw us.
I think if we were to change the deck (the ruin package has proven to work now, and I am getting to T4 7 mana with a lot of consistency), we will lose this. Remember it's not easy for other decks to just naturally hit 5 land drops in a row, (although mono white has Knight of the White Orchid which keeps them on pair with our acceleration to a degree). In a few test matches I punished opponents for missing that crucial 4th or 5th land drop and we need to realize that this deck also plays into that variance.
ON adding W,we should ask, what does this color offer that R doesn't? It has sweepers that actually wrath and the removal is solid. We lose Atarka, and Returns, and Chandra (that's huge), so I can't see ramp deck that doesn't utilize the high impact/ card CA outlet that chandra provides for the deck.
those are my thoughts, and I'm sold that Hydra is the engine this deck needed.
Cards to consider: Orbs of Warding to combat hand disruption and stem the bleeding from aggro. I think orbs might be some good tech out of the SB, at it's worst it eats a discard spells or forces an opponent to deal with it. That's fine, one less spell targeting out creatures.
Gaea's Revenge might be another threat to consider, as it dodges every piece of relevant removal.
Lastly, I've seen a few ramp decks morph into a midrange shell, this is fine too, it's a push in a different direction but if it works, we shouldn't be opposed to change either.
LEts see your first draft mana base, lets work this out.
This is what I got
4 waste
4 Evolving wilds
3 mountain
2 plain
1 haven of the spirit dragon
I say 25 lands -1 Offshoot and -1 Atarka, +3 Traverse the Ulvenwald.
Traverse fixes mana early and gets you the bomb you need later.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
I'm not 100% sold yet on traverse the ulvenwald. Is that card really that good?
I'm surprised you all haven't tries the hydra , it's actually really good.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
I see you point but this deck is worried about the early game, not the late game and turn by turn advocate would get more damage in due to vigilance and going up to a 4/5 without having to invest mana.
Things being equal, if played on turn 2, it would take 2 turns to get HB to the same toughness as advocate and you are saving one mana each turn for that which means you will be confronted with the decision between casting a ramp spell (pilgrimage/vegetation or archive) or getting another counter. I do not think there is too much to think about, you cast your spell, but regardless the decision would come up.
For that reason its likely that one uses hangarback as a speed bump instead; you get the tokens then they are used in the same fashion and it did its job.
Advocate however might be able to buy you more time by being larger than the creatures on the other side of the table, it might even draw out some removal taking up the opponents turn
Having vigilance allows you to attack without worrying about defense, less things to worry about, less mistakes to make.
Also works well with Chandra, being able to attack and protect her at the same time.
Advocate doesnt get killed by Eldrazi displacer or worldbreaker against the mirror, and getting it exiled does feel as bad as getting HB exiled.
HB is still a good card and obviously a turn 8 HB for 4 with no cards in hand or on the board is better, especially when it triggers sanctum of Ugin.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Dont know if you have read this yet
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/shadows-over-innistrad-constructed-set-review-green/
Figure a pros' opinion is worth more than mine.
I definitely think it FANTASTIC!!!!!
Testing will prove me wrong
It should be Exceptionally great in the Ruin in their Wake version by increasing the % of it becoming a Rampant growth.
I can see the Atarka/Ulamog exchange, what about the manabase ~ FOCUS
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
So what does the SB look like?
1 Ulamog
1 Radiant Flames
1 chandra
1 Void Winnower
2 Conduit of Ruin
wraths: Tragic Arrogance, Planar Outburst
Fog: Encircling Fissure
life gain ~ meh
removal: Declaration in stone, hidden dragonslayer.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Instead of going with Advocate, I'm planning on going with 4 Jaddi and 2 Nahiri in the list. Ramp Package would be only Nissa's Pilgrimage & Explosive Vegetation. Instead of trying to make Ruin in the wake work, I'll be more focused on getting my creatures for early chump blocking or gaining life until I stabilize.
I'll be adding the list soon after I've got it finalized.
RWW Eldrazi Goggles
2 Plains
2 Mountain
10 Forest
1 Blighted Woodland
1 Mirrorpool
3 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Fortified Village
1 Game Trail
2 Canopy Vista
2 Cinder Glade
Why this land base?
I felt that a good ratio of SOI Land : Battle Land is 1 : 2. You want SOI Land in early game, Battle Land late game, at the same time SOI Land works great when you have basics in hand, Battle Land works best with Basics in play. Hence why more Battle Land over SOI Land, because at late game you'll likely have more basics already in play (DUH) while not much basics in hand. 3 Sanctum of Ugin so we can leave the Traverse the Ulvenwald more for Creature tutor when it has Delirium. Not going for Waste opens this as a Creature Tutor over land tutor. 1 Blighted Woodland because it does 2 thing, Ramps and fills in as 1 for Delirium. The purpose of Mirrorpool is to work as a catcher, if they were to kill Atarka or Dromoka, we would be able to clone a copy of it and sacrifice the intended target to legendary rule, same thing for Ulamog, this would in turn shut down Declaration in Stone. It's one of the only ways to fizzle it and not much other options open to Naya colors. It's still WIP so I'll see how far it'll go
2 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Dragonlord Dromoka
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 World Breaker
4 Jaddi Offshoot
No more Advocate, as it doesn't do well in this deck. It's good as a blocker but with the meta shifting towards having either more creatures or punishment for throwing them out all together (Declaration in Stone), it's a blown out in this deck where you can't really benefit from the other bonus he has. Jaddi Offshoot has convinced me of it's usefulness. You may not block with it, but with more than 1 in play, each land drop heals you like no other. Even if you ain't ramping with ramp spells, the land drop per turn is enough to withstand early onslaught. With a body of 0/3 also helps keeping it alive even when we sweep it with Kozilek's Return. The key point for ramp now is to stabilize before starting to throw out our fatties to win. If they want to waste a spell on killing the Jaddi Offshoot? It's our win.
2 Ulamog instead of just 1 because I'm looking at Inevitable option of having 1 removed due to all the hand disruption spells. Full suit of World Breaker still because playing any lesser makes me feel like I might as well splash black to play Jund. Ramp exist to play fatties. 2 of each Dragonlord for the same reason, You need to anticipate that they are automatic removal suckers, they will eat a removal or else you win. Dromoka helps to stall, Atarka helps to Kill problematic creatures or planeswalkers.
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Explosive Vegetation
3 Oath of Nissa
3 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Kozelik's Return
Reduced Kozelik's return instead due to the meta running rampant with x/3 creatures. 2 is ideal enough for me at the moment. Full set of 3cmc and 4cmc ramp spell, not for the purpose of throwing out a world breaker as fast as possible, but to assist in stabilizing before having enough battlefield control to start throwing out our fatties to pave the way to victory. 3 Traverse the Ulvenwald, early game yes it helps to fix your mana base like how LSV puts, late game it'll help to find the targets we want to use our mana on. 3 Chandra either as our 4 damage sweeper or to close games, 2 Nahiri because she not only gives card advantage, she also exiles (Key Importance) either an enemy creature, artifact or Enchantment which are causing problem for us. 3 Oath of nissa for filtering into threats either in terms of walker or creature.
1 Kozelik's Return
1 Void Winnower
1 Descend upon the Sinful
1 Planar Outburst
1 Tragic Arrogance
2 Roast
2 Clip Wings
2 Gaea's Revenge
2 Conduit of Ruin
2 Radiant Flame
1 extra K Return when you need it, 3 different Wraith spells for you to see which is more fitting for the match up. Tragic Arrogance helps against other Walker builds, Descend Upon the Sinful against anything that kinda persist. Roast and Clip Wings for specific match ups where you'll need them for direct removals, Void Winnower & Conduit of Ruin is for Mirror, Radiant Flame is simply a 3 damage sweeper in this build.
I'll be likely to bring this for a testing run sometime soon, hoping that it'll be ideal enough after more iteration for gameday. Else I'll just be piloting a BW Control/Midrange and shift this deck over to Jund Midrange instead.
2 Plains
2 Mountain
10 Forest
1 Blighted Woodland
1 Mirrorpool
3 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Fortified Village
1 Game Trail
2 Canopy Vista
2 Cinder Glade
Creatures
2 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Dragonlord Dromoka
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 World Breaker
4 Jaddi Offshoot
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Explosive Vegetation
3 Oath of Nissa
3 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
2 Kozelik's Return
1 Kozelik's Return
1 Void Winnower
1 Descend upon the Sinful
1 Planar Outburst
1 Tragic Arrogance
2 Roast
2 Clip Wings
2 Gaea's Revenge
2 Conduit of Ruin
2 Radiant Flame
RWW Eldrazi Goggles
Tried out 22 lands to minimise mana flooding, and other than one game where land drops were slow, the 4 Oath of Nissa and 4 Traverse the ulvenwald gave me the necessary early land drops and then served well as tutors late game. Managed to do a World Breaker combo to exile Always Watching and trigger Kozilek's return to kill Dragonlord Ojutai and Archangel of Tithes.
Will consider switching Ulvenwald hydra for Oblivion sower in the sideboard for the guaranteed land ramp and reach and switch 1 Shrine of the forsaken gods for 1 Blighted woodland as extra ramp option. Also, Endless one is a good flexible card right now in an aggro-heavy meta. Either early blocker or triggers Return and Sanctum late game. Hedron crawler is a better dork to trigger delirium due to its 2 card types.
4 Sanctum of Ugin
2 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
2 Cinder Glade
3 Mountain
11 Forest
Threats (13)
2 Endless one
3 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Dragonlord Atarka
4 World Breaker
2 Ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
4 Hedron crawler
4 Explosive vegetation
2 Hedron archive
Tutors (8)
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
Stabilisers (7)
3 Kozilek's return
2 Warping wail
2 Sylvan advocate
1 Sylvan advocate
2 Warping wail
1 Kozilek's return
2 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality smasher
2 Oblivion sower
2 Gaea's revenge
1 Nissa's revelation
1 Void winnower
1 Kozilek, the great distortion
Will run more trials of this 22 lands version to see if I need to side 1 Forest/Mountain for land drop consistency.
22 lands that nuts.....
I wanna talk about lightning Axe.
Great removal for ONE mana > but we have to discard a card.
So what to discard:
Kozilek's return
Extra lands, especially from Nissa'a Pilgrimage
WorldBreaker, assuming you cant cast it within 1-2 turns (buy it back later)
Redundant ramp spells or non-delirum traverses.
Speaking of delirium, Axe can help enable that, its an instant. Imagine discard hedron crawler with it, you are only a sorcery away from delirium.....
So thinking about all of this makes me think of Main deck K.Returns, 2/3. I think I would only play 3 Axe at the most. only 3 Chandra, 4 WB for discard and to get the 2nd part of K.rtn. I would have 2/3 Drownyard temples as added discard fodder plus the cards acceleration ability of spending 3 mana to put it into play from the grave for 3 mana.
here is the 1st draft
1 Conduit of Ruin
4 World Breaker
2 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Spells - 27
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Lightning Axe
4 Ruin in their wake
3 Kozilek's Return
2 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Explosive Vegetation
3 Chandra, Flamecaller
10 Forest
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Waste
3 Mountain
2 Sanctum of Ugin
2 Drownyard temple
2 Roast
3 Jaddi Offshoot
1 Lightning Axe
3 Clip wings
2 Void Winnower
1 Conduit of Ruin
I had the 4th Oath and Traverse as possible 2 drops, Warping Wail or Hedron Crawler but figured the versatility is better.
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
Modern: UW Spirits
2x Cinder Glade
4x Evolving Wilds
8x Forest
2x Mountain
4x Sanctum of Ugin
4x Wastes
Instant (3)
3x Kozilek's Return
Enchantment (3)
3x Oath of Nissa
3x Chandra, Flamecaller
Sorcery (16)
4x Explosive Vegetation
4x Nissa's Pilgrimage
4x Ruin in Their Wake
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
Creature (11)
2x Dragonlord Atarka
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4x Ulvenwald Hydra
4x World Breaker
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
1x Conduit of Ruin
4x Jaddi Offshoot
1x Kozilek's Return
1x Kozilek, the Great Distortion
2x Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip
3x Rending Volley
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Void Winnower
So, the Hydra is really really good, I can't tell you all how important it is to the build. It gets starts a chain of events that allow you to load up on threats once you have an Eldrazi in hand (which is quite often).
Vs Mardu Walkers (my friends build) 5-0, after SB 3-0
Vs Bant Humans 3-2 losses in testing, but he I let him SB to see how the match up went, and it doesn't feel that bad, Chandra, and Returns are important. After SB bring in Volleys, and Jaddi's. It's winnable, but any quick aggro deck will always be this deck's soft spot.
Vs B/W Control 2-0, it wasn't close. I landed Hydra T4, got sanctum, he removes hydra, I play another one, (now an 9/9) he has to remove it, I proceed to land x3 world breakers and have Atarka and Ulamog in hand. Both games went like this, and T4 6-7 mana was on quite often.
Vs R/G Werwolves we tested and I let him SB against me went 3 - 2 in testing. First game I mull to 5, YES 5, I win here off of Traverse tutor up Ulamog, blow up his board, and exile Arlinn + the enchament that makes all dudes tap for mana. He wasn't happy...I was
I purposely did not SB because I wanted to see what the core of the deck could do untouched. It was pretty good ;)SB is still being worked on, for those of you (like myself) playing PPTQ's include a few copies of Rending Volley, it hits all the current mono W builds, and Bant CoCo.
You can go with a more tuned anti aggro list, but you;re not as quick, and lose game against the B/W Control match up which is winnable as well.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Duskwatch Recruiter is the first big one, I've been trying it in favor of a manadork, and it's actually pretty effective at the role. Even unflipped, it has a really useful ability that can re-gas you at instant speed.
Tireless Tracker Is amazing, and works so well with the number of lands ramp plays.
Now the odd one, but again, I've found it so good, especially in concert with the Tracker...
Tamiyo's Journal Ever had one of those games where you're just outta gas? You have all the mana you'll ever need, but nothing to cast with it? Tap this sucker, sac three clues that you can have easily generated with the tracker, grow the tracker by three if he's still chilling on the battlefield, and get to tutor anything at all with no reveal! Emergency boardwipe? That last ramp spell to get you to your big guys? The big guys themselves? It just... works!
Hydra is surely good, no question about it. the problem is that looking at your list, racerxen, your ONLY answer to early threats are the 3 Kozilek's Return.
If they play Sylvan Advocate, Bygone Bishop, the raptor etc. your only option is to hope for a chandra (you even play 3 instead of 4), or wait for 7 mana to cast Kozilek from the GY (meaning 2 cards).
On top of this, you start casting big creatures by turn 4-5, MAX 1 per turn. If they already have board position (like every midrange and fast aggro usually do by then)....do you think a 6/6 7/7 reach is enough for you to survive? Expecially if they use a couple of removals and keep hitting you with their 2/3 3/3 creatures.
It is a nice list, but it looks a bit weak against fast aggro or midrange decks with a nice start.
looking forward to the PPTQ report.
Take good notes~!
Props to DarkNightCavalier 4 da banner and SGT_Chubbz 4 avvie, here
Standard
GRAggro
GRWNaya Purphoros
GWAggro Retired 9/19/2014
RGPrimeval Titan RIP
1/5/2010 - 9/30/2011
Top 4 Channelfireball Winter series 5k Feb. 2011
3rd at California National Qualifiers 2011
40th at GP SLC 2012
Find me on MTGO @ Ruslvmusl91
I treat the Traverse as if it was an Evolving Wilds (1 cmc = CIPT land) so it feels like I have 26 lands. This setup is due to the aggro-heavy meta where manaflood at early game will kill you. Will move to 23/24 with 8 tutors once the meta stabilised.
Hangarback is not so good vs Humans cos they're aggressive from turn 2 and it will only be 1/1 by then and won't trade with theirs like Advocate and Endless One.
BGStandard Green AggroGB
UWRGModern Saheeli CobraGRWU
UBRGLegacy StormGRBU
Wizards Certified Rules Advisor
Usually Sorcery ramp spell + KReturn/Chandra sweep with Hedron Crawler in play
I agree that it is a good card; but I don't think it is the best card in the deck. Warping Wail I feel is a card that is meta dependent. If you are seeing a lot of control; then it is a great way to stop them from playing sorcery speed spells that pick apart our hand. It can also help create a blocker at instant speed if needed; which can also help you ramp that turn or the next.
In my meta; I don't see a whole lot of control. I do see Bant CoCo; various agro decks (from home brews to T1 decks); a few sub-par (budget) ramp decks and maybe 1 person who actually plays various control decks (he likes playing a different deck every few weeks). For me while it would be effective against one player most weeks; against most of the others it wouldn't be as good as running something else (KR, Rending Volley or Offshoot's). Which is why I'm not currently running any in my 75.
Redirus91 wrote:
I agree 22 lands seem very dangerous to me. I've had plenty of hands that I had to mulligan due to only have 1 or 2 lands or no forest in the opening 7; and that is with me running 25 lands.
I would rather run Rending Volley over Lightning Axe. My reasoning is that while they both cost 1 mana; and Rending Volley only does 4 damage instead of 5 and can only hit white or blue creatures; the discard that early in the game in my opinion is card disadvantage on our part. I don't want to 2 for 1 myself to kill something on turn 2 or 3 by having to discard a card to play something. While it might help with delirium; I just don't feel that it is a good play on our part that early. Right now with how the meta is looking after the Baltimore; Rending Volley hits just about all of the major threats that the other decks are running and that we have to worry about.
Psy
Jeskai Control:42-23-5
Elves: 44-31-3
Red-Aggro: 18-9-0
B/G Energy 21-6-0
Previous Played:
G/r Ramp:125-72-3 - Bant CoCo:64-24-2 - Jeskai Saheeli: 62-25-4 - Mono Green Eldrazi: 22-11-2
Bant Aggro: 51-27-6 - U/W/g Midrange: 47-24-1 - Bant: 4-3-0
Rending Volley is VERY good right now.
Modern: UW Spirits
Oath of Nissa has at time made me bottom a return and I can actually recall moments when I knew that was the turn I'd lose the game. We have to ask the question, do we need this card? Yes, do we cut it to 3 copies? I think yes, we want to draw our sweeper effects, and not have to bottom it them in hopes that we top deck it "again". I think 3 Oath's is correct, and if you are building the mana base correctly you should have at minimum 14-15 greens sources, with 8-12 red sources (we can count Traverse since it really does help fix out colors early on, I rarely pop off an Oath unless I'm searching for a specific target, like a threat or a sanctum). This is the tricky part about Turns 1-4, I think it's correct to wait for a ramp spell rather then burn an Oath to hit a land drop (you do this when you are really mana screwed, which is why this deck needs to run at minimum 23 lands, I think 24 is ideal, 25...eh) .
Tuning the deck to be anti aggro, we can morph into a deck that can have a much better game against aggro G2, I'm not sure we want to completely change up what the deck does in order to beat 1 deck, one of which can be beaten. It's not rally, and by boarding in Volley's , +1 Return and + 1 chandra, + 4 Offshoots, we treat the match up like mono red. That said, we either have the sweeper or we don't and there's no way around it. We can try and gum up the ground (I posted in MTG spikes and I was the one that said we should consider running Jaddi's in the main, and hangarbacks again) but...reflector mage makes Hanagrback really sad. Advocate, might be fine since he fills our 2 drops slot, but Jaddi is value all around, net life and blocks. We really do don't care about removing early aggro, we care about removing creatures that come down T4 (cmc 4 and up) those usually have ETB effects that screw us.
I think if we were to change the deck (the ruin package has proven to work now, and I am getting to T4 7 mana with a lot of consistency), we will lose this. Remember it's not easy for other decks to just naturally hit 5 land drops in a row, (although mono white has Knight of the White Orchid which keeps them on pair with our acceleration to a degree). In a few test matches I punished opponents for missing that crucial 4th or 5th land drop and we need to realize that this deck also plays into that variance.
ON adding W,we should ask, what does this color offer that R doesn't? It has sweepers that actually wrath and the removal is solid. We lose Atarka, and Returns, and Chandra (that's huge), so I can't see ramp deck that doesn't utilize the high impact/ card CA outlet that chandra provides for the deck.
those are my thoughts, and I'm sold that Hydra is the engine this deck needed.
Cards to consider:
Orbs of Warding to combat hand disruption and stem the bleeding from aggro. I think orbs might be some good tech out of the SB, at it's worst it eats a discard spells or forces an opponent to deal with it. That's fine, one less spell targeting out creatures.
Gaea's Revenge might be another threat to consider, as it dodges every piece of relevant removal.
Lastly, I've seen a few ramp decks morph into a midrange shell, this is fine too, it's a push in a different direction but if it works, we shouldn't be opposed to change either.
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn