I've written up a primer loosely based on the description I had of my personal Esper deck.
Thanks for your input Aestereal, but I didn't use your work. It was heavy on personal opinions and thoughts, so I didn't think it appropriate. HOWEVER! I will certainly post a link to the doc as an addendum to the Primer once you're finished if you like!
A lot of his choices seem weird. I mean, maindeck Sphinx of the Final Word? That seems like a creature best fitted for the control mirror. I understand that you want a beatstick, but I'm not sure this is the best choice. I personally don't like it. I also don't like Spell Shrivel, it's awkward. Clash of Wills allows you to interact as soon as turn 2. I think Kalitas is too good to not be in the maindeck. Sure, he dies to Languish, but the lifegain is important, as are the zombies from your removal spells.
I'm also surprised at the lack of Dispel. Knowing Collected Company is a deck to beat, don't you want a 1CMC hard counter for it? I guess this is because the core is more black than blue, but it seems like a big oversight to me.
Clash of Wills has diminishing returns the longer the game goes. Which for us is a long time. My mana base isn't as black as his at this point so I'm still very comfortable with Void Shatter as my go-to counter.
The reason he doesn't run creatures mainboard except for Sphinx is that the threat of bounce, tap and removal is super high in the current meta with Declaration in Stone and the prevalence of Bant (and it's reflector mages, bounding krasis, etc). Sphinx is immune to most of the tricks our opponents are running, and can survive a Languish.
A lot of his choices seem weird. I mean, maindeck Sphinx of the Final Word? That seems like a creature best fitted for the control mirror. I understand that you want a beatstick, but I'm not sure this is the best choice. I personally don't like it. I also don't like Spell Shrivel, it's awkward. Clash of Wills allows you to interact as soon as turn 2. I think Kalitas is too good to not be in the maindeck. Sure, he dies to Languish, but the lifegain is important, as are the zombies from your removal spells.
I'm also surprised at the lack of Dispel. Knowing Collected Company is a deck to beat, don't you want a 1CMC hard counter for it? I guess this is because the core is more black than blue, but it seems like a big oversight to me.
Survives Languish (cannot stress how important this is and why I think Esper Dragons is so bad right now)
Renders all removal bar unconditional sweepers and edicts useless, including the best tempo play in the format Reflector Mage (and to a lesser extent Bounding Krasis)
What are you realistically going to want to counter with Clash of Wills on turn 2 that you cannot remove with Ultimate Price or Grasp of Darkness or even just ignore entirely? The guys playing the deck said it was set up to go tap land, untapped land, tap land, untapped land etc to allow you to interact on turn 2 and turn 4, which is when you need to use spot removal/Anticipate and Languish/Narset Transcendent. Sure, in the late game, Spell Shrivel might not be the hard counter you want, but I think it fits the spot nicely and without demanding double blue. The main strength of Seth's deck is consistency.
Yeah I encountered a lot of resistance when I put forward Sphinx in my early Esper brewing, but I think Manfield has proven that he's solid. Fitz pretty much spelled it out in detail why that is the case.
What it boils down to is there is a lot of creature hate out there between the bouncing, tapping, removing, etc. A deck only running one creature means that by the time you do cast your big finisher... they are going to have a big handful of nastiness they are going to want to hit it with because it's been dead in their hand all game. Sphinx safely enters the battlefield (can't be countered) then is Hexproof when he gets there. He's also big enough that you can continue languishing the battlefield to keep it clear, which you'll want to do against say... Green/White Tokens who will still try to mob the board with small token creatures late in the game. He sticks better than any other creature out there and fit's perfectly into this shell. It's a no brainer.
I really like spell shrivel in this list. Very easy on mana and almost no lists will be able to afford 4. I think Sphinx is great too! I might change up the SB for more counter magic, but I'm in love with this setup. I might try-1 narset transcendent, -1 ultimate price to add 1x more Ob nixilis and 1x void shatter. I really like Robert Nixilis right now, plus I get to feel cool and run 2,2,2,2 walkers:)
Has anyone tried alhammarret's archive? Pretty potent effect with walkers and anticipate. Somethjng to consider anyway for the same of great fun!
I have not read all the posts, so appologies if I repeat something that was already said. These are my opinions, but the short story is that I think Seth got a very good control deck for the meta, and it's probably close to the optimal build.
Reasoning:
1) I like cutting JVP in a reflector mage, bounding krasis heavy meta. 0 creatures (Sphinx has hexproof, so its not really a creature), means that two of their best tempo plays are just vanilla 2/3s for 3. If it turns ou your opponent is not Bant Coco, then you can bring them in from the board. I agree with this choice.
2) I love draw-go control, and don't like tap out nearly as much. But draw-go needs good instant speed big card drawers for the end game. This format has one such spell (ephiphany at the drownyard) but that card seems better suited for a synergies deck rather than a control deck.
2.b.) Given the lack on instant speed big drawers, te question is "what are the best sorcery speed drawers". Mansfield coreclty identified that these walkers are the best card drawing options, because they draw cards while cementing the control. (Given the lack of jace, the Narset choice is great. ALso, with temples, I used to play narset to great effect, helping to make the +1 hit... JUS serves a similar purpose).
2.c.) These walkers only defend themselves with their minus ability (contrary to Elspeth, that protected herself with the +) Thus, they are better on an empty board, so the 5 sweepers seems like a great idea. (I think 6 would have been fine too).
3) I like the lack of permission. The mana base is already a bit greedy, and Esper sort of has to choose between BB for grasp, or UU for a hard counterspell like void shatter. Also, choosing an exile effect is good vs decks running recursion like the Eldrazi ramp deck. ALso, since you are already tapping out so much, permission is usually awkward.
4) While Stasis snare and silkwrap hit almost all cards in the meta (with the added bonus of answering Ormendhal and, in the case of snare, an animated Gideon), the fact that GWx is popular means that you either go all-in with the enchantment removal (so that you can always sac the least impactful enchantment). But... if you expect Tragic Arrogance from the opponent's board, then going all-in into enchantment removal (specially given the relativ elack of permission) means you are begging to get blown out.
I think Seth's deck was very well built given the card sin the format and the meta that ended up showing up.
I think Manfields deck was perfect for the meta he was going into (Bant and Humans) but I think it lacks a lot of answers to a lot of questions. His deck can't answer Ormendahl. It can't answer manlands. It can't answer hexproof and Indestructibles. That's why my deck isn't changing that much from the results. I moved my JVP to the sideboard but I'm keeping a lot of my answers he doesn't use, like To the Slaughter for answering the above.
What's real unfortunate is if you click through the earlier pages I was insisting JVP was falling off due to all the creature hate and everyone was against me. I eventually folded to the pressure and bought a play set. Now they are in the sideboard. It took someone finishing third in the Pro Tour with them in the sideboard to convince people what I've been saying since March. -.-
I think Manfields deck was perfect for the meta he was going into (Bant and Humans) but I think it lacks a lot of answers to a lot of questions. His deck can't answer Ormendahl. It can't answer manlands. It can't answer hexproof and Indestructibles. That's why my deck isn't changing that much from the results. I moved my JVP to the sideboard but I'm keeping a lot of my answers he doesn't use, like To the Slaughter for answering the above.
What's real unfortunate is if you click through the earlier pages I was insisting JVP was falling off due to all the creature hate and everyone was against me. I eventually folded to the pressure and bought a play set. Now they are in the sideboard. It took someone finishing third in the Pro Tour with them in the sideboard to convince people what I've been saying since March. -.-
His deck does have answers to both manlands and Ormendahl: Grasp of Darkness. Instant speed -4/-4 deals with all manlands (before a Sylvan Advocate, which can be priced) outside of Lumbering Falls and two of them drop Ormendahl. Various card draw engines including the instant speed Anticipate allow for us to dig for what we need. He also had Anguished Unmaking in the side to deal with indestructible. To the Slaughter can work against these threats but only if they are the only threat on the board.
It is important to note that, for the most part, no control deck will be able to have an answer to everything. You can come close, to be sure, but there is no catch control deck. That's why matches aren't control mirrors that go to time or won by whomever can land Final Word first. What's important is to know your meta and craft the deck to answer those threats as best they can.
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Besides the fact it's highly unlikely you'll have two in your hand when Ormendahl flips... He is indestructible. So you could drop a play set of Grasps on him and he's not dying. You need an exile or sacrifice spell and he doesn't have one mainboard.
Besides the fact it's highly unlikely you'll have two in your hand when Ormendahl flips... He is indestructible. So you could drop a play set of Grasps on him and he's not dying. You need an exile or sacrifice spell and he doesn't have one mainboard.
He actually DOES die to double grasp of darkness. It gets around indestructible. Same case with falkenrath aristocrat and tragic slip. There is no damage dealt.
Besides the fact it's highly unlikely you'll have two in your hand when Ormendahl flips... He is indestructible. So you could drop a play set of Grasps on him and he's not dying. You need an exile or sacrifice spell and he doesn't have one mainboard.
He actually DOES die to double grasp of darkness. It gets around indestructible. Same case with falkenrath aristocrat and tragic slip. There is no damage dealt.
This. Indestructible means that he won't die to damage. He still dies if his toughness is reduced to 0 other ways, such as through double Grasp. And I've play tested my version of Esper control (based more or less on Seth's) and regularly had the means to deal with Ormendahl (Silumgar's Command deals with him very nicely, along with doing other things as well, thinking about removing the Outburst for a second Command)
EDIT: Here is an overview of how indestructible works
Besides the fact it's highly unlikely you'll have two in your hand when Ormendahl flips... He is indestructible. So you could drop a play set of Grasps on him and he's not dying. You need an exile or sacrifice spell and he doesn't have one mainboard.
Actually, that will remove Ormendahl just fine, as has already been pointed out. You may want to refamiliarize yourself with that particular interaction (-X/-X and Indestructible) as I'm sure it'll come up at some point in your tournament future.
As an added note, Grasp is also quite nice for nuking Avacyns when they come into play, and is part of why I said that Languish was so strong right now. It doesn't lose to Avacyn.
Agains the hexproof land, he has Sphinx of the final word, which actually beats the hexproof land (3/3/ vs 5/5), and trades when it is powered by a single advocate. Sure, SotFW is slow, but you spend the mana only once, as opposed to continually having to dump your mana into it.
Besides the fact it's highly unlikely you'll have two in your hand when Ormendahl flips... He is indestructible. So you could drop a play set of Grasps on him and he's not dying. You need an exile or sacrifice spell and he doesn't have one mainboard.
Actually, that will remove Ormendahl just fine, as has already been pointed out. You may want to refamiliarize yourself with that particular interaction (-X/-X and Indestructible) as I'm sure it'll come up at some point in your tournament future.
Archive also works well with sorin's minus ability, and the Vents. Not saying that a 5-mana do-nothing-etb artifact is the way a control deck wants to go, just pointing out that the archive's life gain clause is almost as important as the draw clause. My personal opinion is that control is about individually powerful cards, not synergies. If I am going to spend 5 mana on my turn, I'd like to do it on something that has an immediate impact (preferably, on the board, but a 5 mana sorcery that drew a ton of cards could be useful too).
Yeah didn't bother mentioning how it works with lifegain since card draw is way more important to us. But thanks for bringing up how well Sorin and Vents work with it, as that's certainly something to consider as well. I still think the card's bad in the deck, though, which is what's important.
Regardless of whether two Grasps can down an Ormendahl or not, I'm not gambling on the chance that I have 2 of them in my hand AND 4 available black mana to cast them to take him down. He has to be answered immediately or we are eating dirt. Like I said earlier, Manfield's deck had the right hate for the meta he was going into (Humans and Bant) but I think we are going to be seeing an unprecedentedly diverse Tier 1 field this rotation and the answers need more versatility. Watch his decklist, I can guarantee he is going to go wider with his answers post-Pro Tour. Naysay me if you want, but I was right before when everyone was telling me I was wrong and we can see now who has pie on their face.
I'm seeing a lot of potential in going a bit more toolboxy. Watching Game One of Manfield's quarterfinals game, I really think the point at which he broke the tokens deck was when he Petitioned for an answer, fired a different answer with the extra mana, then grabbed another answer with the rebounded Petition for what looked like a more-than-free 3 for 1. I'm not sure what I'd run in that toolbox because it'd need to be black-heavy, but it seems like it's got potential to be insanely strong.
Ormendahl isn't even the only thing we have to be afraid of. You fixin' to 3x Grasp an Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger too? How are you going to deal with World Breaker? Protip: killing him once isn't going to make him go away. Better hope you have one of those 2 Ruinous Paths available when G/W tokens (who beat Manfield in the semi-finals) starts swinging in with Gideon! Lets not forget Sylvan Advocate who Manfield said himself that it was the card that scared him most to see his opponent play.
Control needs answers, and a diverse meta is going to ask a lot of tough questions.
Post board Mansfield has: 2 spell shrivel, 2 anguished unmaking, 1 infinite obliteration (which can be rebounded with Narset, meaning you take BOTH threats out with one spell, forever!), 2 Dark Petitions and 1 Kalitas (which makes ruinous path an exile spell). That is 7 spells and 1 "combo" to deal with the Ulamog/World breaker issue (Breaker beaing the most important threat, as ulamog was not as played in the PT). We can argue some of the numbers (maybe a 3 unmaking? a second obliteration?) but as a whole Mansfield's list has a decent amount of ways to handle the Drazi.
EDIT: He also has transgress the mind, but that one is more random.
I do honestly feel that manfield's list is terribly bad against the eldrazi match up game 1. Game 2 you gotta hope on drawing either infinite obliteration or dark petition before they start chaining world breakers into ulamogs. No, exiling 1 or 2 does not make a difference. I've been playing Esper since last standard and there was once where I countered/exiled 3 ulamogs and still couldn't win because the cast trigger just removed my planeswalkers and lands.
Still waiting for Manfield to do a write up about his deck
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Thanks for your input Aestereal, but I didn't use your work. It was heavy on personal opinions and thoughts, so I didn't think it appropriate. HOWEVER! I will certainly post a link to the doc as an addendum to the Primer once you're finished if you like!
WUBEsper ControlWUB
I'm also surprised at the lack of Dispel. Knowing Collected Company is a deck to beat, don't you want a 1CMC hard counter for it? I guess this is because the core is more black than blue, but it seems like a big oversight to me.
Here are some changes I'd make:
Sphinx -> Dragonlord Silumgar or Linvala
Shrivel -> Clash
-1 Languish -> Kalitas
+ Dispel
Up to debate of course
The reason he doesn't run creatures mainboard except for Sphinx is that the threat of bounce, tap and removal is super high in the current meta with Declaration in Stone and the prevalence of Bant (and it's reflector mages, bounding krasis, etc). Sphinx is immune to most of the tricks our opponents are running, and can survive a Languish.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Things Sphinx of the Final Word does that Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Linvala, the Preserver, Dragonlord Silumgar, Dragonlord Ojutai and any other large finisher you can suggest cannot:
What are you realistically going to want to counter with Clash of Wills on turn 2 that you cannot remove with Ultimate Price or Grasp of Darkness or even just ignore entirely? The guys playing the deck said it was set up to go tap land, untapped land, tap land, untapped land etc to allow you to interact on turn 2 and turn 4, which is when you need to use spot removal/Anticipate and Languish/Narset Transcendent. Sure, in the late game, Spell Shrivel might not be the hard counter you want, but I think it fits the spot nicely and without demanding double blue. The main strength of Seth's deck is consistency.
What it boils down to is there is a lot of creature hate out there between the bouncing, tapping, removing, etc. A deck only running one creature means that by the time you do cast your big finisher... they are going to have a big handful of nastiness they are going to want to hit it with because it's been dead in their hand all game. Sphinx safely enters the battlefield (can't be countered) then is Hexproof when he gets there. He's also big enough that you can continue languishing the battlefield to keep it clear, which you'll want to do against say... Green/White Tokens who will still try to mob the board with small token creatures late in the game. He sticks better than any other creature out there and fit's perfectly into this shell. It's a no brainer.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Has anyone tried alhammarret's archive? Pretty potent effect with walkers and anticipate. Somethjng to consider anyway for the same of great fun!
Reasoning:
1) I like cutting JVP in a reflector mage, bounding krasis heavy meta. 0 creatures (Sphinx has hexproof, so its not really a creature), means that two of their best tempo plays are just vanilla 2/3s for 3. If it turns ou your opponent is not Bant Coco, then you can bring them in from the board. I agree with this choice.
2) I love draw-go control, and don't like tap out nearly as much. But draw-go needs good instant speed big card drawers for the end game. This format has one such spell (ephiphany at the drownyard) but that card seems better suited for a synergies deck rather than a control deck.
2.b.) Given the lack on instant speed big drawers, te question is "what are the best sorcery speed drawers". Mansfield coreclty identified that these walkers are the best card drawing options, because they draw cards while cementing the control. (Given the lack of jace, the Narset choice is great. ALso, with temples, I used to play narset to great effect, helping to make the +1 hit... JUS serves a similar purpose).
2.c.) These walkers only defend themselves with their minus ability (contrary to Elspeth, that protected herself with the +) Thus, they are better on an empty board, so the 5 sweepers seems like a great idea. (I think 6 would have been fine too).
3) I like the lack of permission. The mana base is already a bit greedy, and Esper sort of has to choose between BB for grasp, or UU for a hard counterspell like void shatter. Also, choosing an exile effect is good vs decks running recursion like the Eldrazi ramp deck. ALso, since you are already tapping out so much, permission is usually awkward.
4) While Stasis snare and silkwrap hit almost all cards in the meta (with the added bonus of answering Ormendhal and, in the case of snare, an animated Gideon), the fact that GWx is popular means that you either go all-in with the enchantment removal (so that you can always sac the least impactful enchantment). But... if you expect Tragic Arrogance from the opponent's board, then going all-in into enchantment removal (specially given the relativ elack of permission) means you are begging to get blown out.
I think Seth's deck was very well built given the card sin the format and the meta that ended up showing up.
What's real unfortunate is if you click through the earlier pages I was insisting JVP was falling off due to all the creature hate and everyone was against me. I eventually folded to the pressure and bought a play set. Now they are in the sideboard. It took someone finishing third in the Pro Tour with them in the sideboard to convince people what I've been saying since March. -.-
WUBEsper ControlWUB
His deck does have answers to both manlands and Ormendahl: Grasp of Darkness. Instant speed -4/-4 deals with all manlands (before a Sylvan Advocate, which can be priced) outside of Lumbering Falls and two of them drop Ormendahl. Various card draw engines including the instant speed Anticipate allow for us to dig for what we need. He also had Anguished Unmaking in the side to deal with indestructible. To the Slaughter can work against these threats but only if they are the only threat on the board.
It is important to note that, for the most part, no control deck will be able to have an answer to everything. You can come close, to be sure, but there is no catch control deck. That's why matches aren't control mirrors that go to time or won by whomever can land Final Word first. What's important is to know your meta and craft the deck to answer those threats as best they can.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
WUBEsper ControlWUB
He actually DOES die to double grasp of darkness. It gets around indestructible. Same case with falkenrath aristocrat and tragic slip. There is no damage dealt.
This. Indestructible means that he won't die to damage. He still dies if his toughness is reduced to 0 other ways, such as through double Grasp. And I've play tested my version of Esper control (based more or less on Seth's) and regularly had the means to deal with Ormendahl (Silumgar's Command deals with him very nicely, along with doing other things as well, thinking about removing the Outburst for a second Command)
EDIT: Here is an overview of how indestructible works
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Alhammarret's Archive actually only works with Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and Ob Nixilis Reignited. All the other cards (Narset Transcendent, Sorin, Grim Nemesis, Anticipate) say "put into your hand", so you don't actually draw and the Archive would do nothing for you. Just wanted to save you a pretty painful Judge call in your future!
Actually, that will remove Ormendahl just fine, as has already been pointed out. You may want to refamiliarize yourself with that particular interaction (-X/-X and Indestructible) as I'm sure it'll come up at some point in your tournament future.
Archive also works well with sorin's minus ability, and the Vents. Not saying that a 5-mana do-nothing-etb artifact is the way a control deck wants to go, just pointing out that the archive's life gain clause is almost as important as the draw clause. My personal opinion is that control is about individually powerful cards, not synergies. If I am going to spend 5 mana on my turn, I'd like to do it on something that has an immediate impact (preferably, on the board, but a 5 mana sorcery that drew a ton of cards could be useful too).
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Control needs answers, and a diverse meta is going to ask a lot of tough questions.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
EDIT: He also has transgress the mind, but that one is more random.
Still waiting for Manfield to do a write up about his deck