I guess I should have said if I'm casting Read the Bones and it actually matters, it's early game. In late game the card isn't that important and I may not even cast it at all if I have out my draw engines and I don't want to take the life hit.
It boils down to quantity vs quality. If I scry 2 and it's two lands, and I'm already in the midst of being flooded, it's entirely more important than I be able to put those two lands on the bottom of my deck and draw two different cards. The odds that it's two more lands are pretty slim statistically, so chances are I'll draw SOMETHING I could use. In this deck especially, I feel that it's more important to draw what specifically you need versus a handful of stuff you don't, which is why filtering is a big theme here through Anticipate, Read the Bones, Jace US, Jace VP, etc. Dump or bottom deck what you don't need, draw up what you do. Card advantage is no advantage if you're holding a full, but mostly useless hand.
@Kamahl, the Fallen - Has your deck changed any based off the recent SCG Open? Seeing the amount of Human/x aggro decks and the W/B eldrazi decks?
And why are people using dragons in this dragonless esper thread
It is going to change. I am not sure to what exactly. There are some important things to note after this weekend though. First and foremost, The deck needs to be built to not utterly fall behind. This 2 Languish nonsense is just that. Decks can be fast right now, and if they are not being fast, they are highly disruptive to control. It is interesting that people would play Dragonlord Ojutai at all, considering that there is a lot of stuff that shuts him down. From edict effects and discard, to Archangel Avacyn, the card is just less than stellar in my opinion - and the dragon value cards are not good enough to really justify running him. There are likely only 2 finishers I would consider playing right now that are creatures.
Dragonlord Silumgar has a bigger ass on him than Dragonlord Ojutai and Ojutai is remarkably brittle these days. If you want a dragon that has roughly the same amount of risk, I think Dragonlord Silumgar has a lot more built in power right now and having Haven of the Spirit Dragon means you can still get that dragon recursion value. As for Alhammarret, High Arbiter, his ability being As he inters the battlefield, means you can scout for lat game removal that might stop you from closing the game and just shut it down on the spot. His body is otherwise less than stellar, but his body means you get the perks of being able to get around edict effects and spot removal depending on the situation. If we are being completely honest though, I am not really a fan of either of them - nor am I a fan of any creature atm.
The trade off here is that relying on planeswalkers is remarkably slow, and you run the risk of just decking yourself. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is just not fun on the 3 color mana base, and Narset Transcendent might as well just be Sorin, Grim Nemesis because he can actually draw you the card if it is a land... but once again, he is just slow and clunky at killing an opponent when you need to be able to put real pressure on them.
Running a straight UW or UB deck might just be better right now. You will be able to run Gideon more consistently and you still have access to a ton of great spot removal spells in W for a decent draw go game if you manage to get your foot in the door. Your other option of straight UB means you are getting access to some great disruption options at the cost of missing out on Sorin, Grim Nemesis and Anguished Unmaking, but you get to use more life to draw cards with black draw spells instead - and you can still get Dragonlord Silumgar in there at the 6 mana slot. The biggest appeal of UB is Flaying Tendrils, but UW gets Declaration in Stone
I feel like Esper is just needing to do way too much at once, so it is likely best to just focus on a UW or UB shell right now. It is a damn shame that Madness is such a trash control mechanic for now :(, but in the mean time I think the key should be to focus on building around having access to more sweepers. Going two colors even opens you up to exploring Corrupted Grafstone and Brain in a Jar to get to a bigger game faster, either by ramping or letting you get in some free spells while leaving mana up so you can use virtual mana as you move into the later stages of the game.
UW Azorius Control
The real selling point of UW is going to be the ability to EOT Secure the Wastes into Ormendahl, Profane Prince, but what makes blue appealing is the ability to use counter magic for disruption and you can back it up with some great removal options in white. There are so many white removal spells on the cheap, and they should not be that difficult to get online. Another payout is the ability to mitigate damage using Gideon, Ally of Zendikar tokens and clean the board up with Planar Outburst to start laying in beats for a quick close. Overall, UW is going to give you a faster closing game at the cost of having to tap out in some spots that might be generally unfavorable no matter how you swing it. Getting to use counter magic like Clash of Wills, Scatter to the Winds, and even Confirm Suspicions can make for a solid game when backed by Celestial Flare, Swift Reckoning, Immolating Glare - can make for a solid draw go game, only tapping out to start putting pressure on or to seize an opportunity to stabilize. Having access to Declaration in Stone is also utterly fantastic.
UB Dimir Control
I think there is a lot more to have with UB, mainly your cheap instant speed removal options to add to your counter suite. There is less need to tap out and you are less restricted in the early game on what your removal is hitting or what other casting stipulations may exist. Silumgar's Command seems like a really powerful card here, giving you the ability to punish their mana base in addition to answering planeswalkers or creatures. There is not a lot of 2 for 1 value in Control right now, and that means this card is capable of doing an incredible amount of work. Focusing on Dragonlord Silumgar means you can quickly close a game with proper set up, and also gives you access to the dragon cards - making your draw go game a bit stronger. Sure, UW can run Dragonlord Ojutai but I just think there are better things to be doing if you are on white. Their ability to close the game is much more efficient, where UB is not and it needs those dragon cards.
Personally, I will likely be focusing on UB Control for now.
Took the UB deck for a spin this afternoon briefly against a friend's UW Humans deck and I'm pretty impressed, Kamahl. It draws a lot of cards and the sheer volume of removal means you can control the board very easily and then slam a DL Silumgar to take their best thing, often having UU open for Scorn. I like being able to aggressively play Silumgar and recycle them over and over with Haven and Learn from the Past, though it does suck if any of them are exiled. There's definitely something there. Very impressed.
I think the manabase needs some adjustment for Esper Control. As a starting point, the spoiler below has my current manabase and an analysis of what it produces.
The last time I really played Standard, the thing to do was to cram as many dual lands into a deck as possible (Glacial Fortress, Shocks, or the Scars Block lands), then fill with basics and Evolving Wilds as necessary. For example, my Venser Control list in Zendikar/Scars of Mirrodin ran 4 Glacial Fortress, 4 Seachrome Coast, and 4 Celestial Colonnade, plus a roughly even distribution of Islands and Plains. That's more or less what I did for my first manabase for this deck. I wanted to play a utility land in Blighted Cataract, 4 Evolving Wilds, and then at least one of each basic land.
However, I think that the battle lands and shadow lands push us in some really awkward directions. No matter what we do, it's not realistic to assume we'll have all our lands come into play untapped. According to the article I've linked at the bottom of this post, we'd need 10 basic lands for a 75% untapped rate on Shadowlands on turn 3, or 6 basics for a roughly 50% untapped rate. To get the same numbers, we'd need 16 basics for Battlelands. That tells me that we're going to want to favor Shadowlands slightly.
At the moment, I think our biggest concerns need to be hitting U for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and W for Declaration in Stone on turn two, then BB for Languish on turn 4. My reasoning behind this is that, as of the SCG Baltimore, the top 8 was 4 Humans aggro decks, 1 Bant Company deck, and a couple of midrange decks (plus one control build). To deal with that, we're going to want our removal online earlier. So, if those are our priorities, we need to have 14 sources of W and U, as well as 17 sources of B. We need to go a bit heavier on the blue than on white because we have several UU cards we want to cast more or less on time as well, including Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and Void Shatter. So, with that in mind, here's the current sample manabase I'm aiming for.
What this should give us is a relatively stable manabase. It's got less sources of blue mana but more of black. I'm not sure how to get the white mana up to 14+ without compromising black, which is something I'm even less happy with doing. I might go with less Shambling Vents and more Caves of Koilos. Keep in mind that this is all fairly theorycrafted at the moment and that I haven't yet put this manabase through testing.
In an unrelated note, I picked up a playset of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. They won't be here until after this Friday unless a miracle happens, but when they get here, I'm aiming for the following list.
I got rid of Clash of Wills entirely. It seems to me that against aggro we want to have more removal so that even if we don't have it in hand when threats hit the table, we have a higher chance of drawing into it, so they were replaced with 2 Ultimate Price. Besides, I don't like Clash of Wills past about turn 4 anyways; it costs too much for what you get.
I'm also running Ojutai's Command main because I think it's a good card to have vs. aggro. Letting Jace chump aggro's biggest threat with the promise of bringing him back later seems like a decent line of play, and there's shenanigans to be had with Narset/Flipped Jace as well.
Since the main deck is (hopefully) going to be able to handle aggro, I decided to let the sideboard be focused on beating the control/midrange matchups. I was running Surge of Righteousness instead of Immolating Glare, but I just don' think there's enough things it hits for it to be in the 75 right now. Time will tell.
Regarding the lands... I'm very satisfied with my manabase, the only change I've gone back and forth on was whether or not to include a Westvale Abbey. Although I will say I think that the Blighted Cataract you're running is an unnecessary complication, because you already have plenty of late game card draw. Also, I don't see the point in Caves of Koilos... You're not going to want to pay that 1 life. Maybe in a deck where speed is crucial but we are slow strokin our way to victory and you don't need that life loss.
Regarding Clash of Wills, I'm thinking I'm going to reduce it to a 1x then throw 2x Negate in. I'm not super pressed to counterspell creatures, and if I do I probably want to do it with Void Shatter for the exile.
Regarding Languish... why 4x? I can't see having more than 2 mainboard.
Regarding the lands... I'm very satisfied with my manabase, the only change I've gone back and forth on was whether or not to include a Westvale Abbey. Although I will say I think that the Blighted Cataract you're running is an unnecessary complication, because you already have plenty of late game card draw. Also, I don't see the point in Caves of Koilos... You're not going to want to pay that 1 life. Maybe in a deck where speed is crucial but we are slow strokin our way to victory and you don't need that life loss.
Regarding Clash of Wills, I'm thinking I'm going to reduce it to a 1x then throw 2x Negate in. I'm not super pressed to counterspell creatures, and if I do I probably want to do it with Void Shatter for the exile.
Regarding Languish... why 4x? I can't see having more than 2 mainboard.
Caves of Koilos is an untapped black and white land that helps guarantee being able to cast Anguished Unmaking, Ojutai's Command, Declaration in Stone and all the black removal on time. You underestimate how important that can be, even if you have to pay 1 life. Esper used to play 2+ before we had fetchable duals and that was when our only white spell was Ojutai. You will absolutely want to pay 1 life if it means being able to cast your spell when needed.
After having watched the coverage for the SCG Open on the weekend, if the meta is anything similar I wouldn't leave home with anything less than 3x Languish in the main deck. Control is used to playing a full set of sweepers historically in creature heavy formats (especially when those creatures are small, and we've just lost all of the X/5s that dominated standard for so long) and this is looking like one of them. 3-4 copies means you're really likely to see one in each game, which is exactly what you want. If you're not pressuring their life with Dragons, you need to reliably sweep the board and sweep it repeatedly. Jace, VP helps with that but doesn't guarantee it.
At the moment, I think our biggest concerns need to be hitting U for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and W for Declaration in Stone on turn two, then BB for Languish on turn 4. My reasoning behind this is that, as of the SCG Baltimore, the top 8 was 4 Humans aggro decks, 1 Bant Company deck, and a couple of midrange decks (plus one control build). To deal with that, we're going to want our removal online earlier.
That's 6 decks in the top 8 that had 20+ creatures, and they're creatures that are resistant to death thanks to Avacyn being played in all of them. That's enough for Languish to be really, really good in my opinion. I'm running 4x because it's the difference between living and dying.
Similarly, I'm not going to be using Caves of Koilos to stop one or two damage. I'm using it to cast D-Stone on Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit or Thalia's Lieutenant turn 2, or setting up a turn 4 Languish to stop my opponent's lethal attack. I'm viewing it the same way that people viewed fetchlands or that you view Anguished Unmaking right now. The life is a resource that I'm using to keep me in the game. I'm not anticipating paying more than 2 or 3 life over the course of the game, but I *am* anticipating that there will be games I win because I was able to interact a turn earlier than I otherwise would have been. And regarding Blighted Cataract, it should be noted that I've switched away from it in favor of the Caves.
I'm a big fan of this deck, I've been brewing some of my own stuff but this is one of the first decks I really like this standard season. My only worry is that you have the potential to get blown out by an Infinite Obliteration and after testing the deck for some games, I felt that the deck was light on wincons. It definitely wins the grindy games though. Maybe something like Rise from the Tides would help close things out too?
Went undefeated against Jund, UR Control, BW Control, Grixxis Control and WG Humans.
Thoughts on this Deck ?
I would like to cut the Fathom Feeder from the board and the engulf from the Main, as they were both underwhelming.
Nice work! Could you tell us more about the different matchups? What worked, what didn't, and what you'd do differently in the future. Maybe how you sideboarded as well?
Went undefeated against Jund, UR Control, BW Control, Grixxis Control and WG Humans.
Thoughts on this Deck ?
I would like to cut the Fathom Feeder from the board and the engulf from the Main, as they were both underwhelming.
Nice work! Could you tell us more about the different matchups? What worked, what didn't, and what you'd do differently in the future. Maybe how you sideboarded as well?
I'll have my own report up later today, most likely.
Additional copies of Anticipate for filtering and card draw would be good options to replace Engulf and Fathom Feeder. For your delirium cards, do you reliably hit delirium on them or not?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Small event, but there were a fair amount of well-tuned decks for this early in a new meta. I went 1-2 with a loss to UR Fevered Visions (1-2), a win against BW Allies (2-0), and a loss to Mono-Red Eldrazi (0-2). It should be noted that this was the first time I actually piloted the deck, rather than goldfishing, and that I've been out of Magic for a couple of years.
UR Fevered Visions: Game One, he got off to a good start with Tutelage/Visions, but I was able to stabilize and take it with man-lands/Ojutai. Game Two, I sided in 10 cards, he sided in 9, and then I mulled down to 5. I ended up racing with a man-land, but wasn't able to take it since he sided in Ojutai hate (!). Game Three, I lost a counter war and missed my opportunity to close with Sorin. This matchup could have gone either way.
WB Allies: Game One I took with a turn 4 Languish, turn 5 Narset, turn 6 Languish, turn 7 rebounded Languish. Game Two, he got off to a quick start and got me to 8 before I could stabilize the first time. Then, he dropped a little ally and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and started swinging for big. I activated my man-land to block, which enabled delirium on To the Slaughter, and ended the game on three life with a Jace and Narset emblem.
Mono-Red Eldrazi: Game One, he chipped away at me with thopters and little weenies, then on turn 5 dropped the first of three Reality Smashers. I lost without being able to do very much. Game Two, I sided in Transgress the Mind and Infinite Obliteration, and actually saw two Transgress early. However, his Thopters got out of control before I could sweep, and I didn't see a Declaration to deal with them. I managed to sweep just before he smashed down a Chandra for the win.
I'll be honest, I'm not sure how to deal with Mono-Red Eldrazi. It seems like letting a Reality Smasher resolve is a serious problem, and they have so much other incremental advantage that you have to deal with it. I'd much appreciate any advice against that one. Overall, I think the deck is solid, or at least can be.
Went undefeated against Jund, UR Control, BW Control, Grixxis Control and WG Humans.
Thoughts on this Deck ?
I would like to cut the Fathom Feeder from the board and the engulf from the Main, as they were both underwhelming.
Nice work! Could you tell us more about the different matchups? What worked, what didn't, and what you'd do differently in the future. Maybe how you sideboarded as well?
Game 2: This went longer, but an turn 5 engulf with 3 "islands" and a later flipped thing let me get the win with me on low life.
Round 2 vs Grixxis Control: 1:0
Game 1: Typical boring control "mirror". Transgress mainboard was key here, which could let me take kolaghan's commands out of hand and provided valuable information. At the end it was a EOT flashed in avacyn who
took the win.
Game 2: Went into time. But this round would have gone to him probably, because i could not answer a resolved chandra.
Round 3 vs UR Control: 2:0
Game 1: First few turns we just killed our jaces and drew some cards from spells like tormenting voice and painful truth. After some beats i could hit his manland with a to the slaughter and resolve a Sorin on my turn on a stable board. Sorin threatend his -9, so he was forced to deal 7 dmg with fall of the titans to him, which was a mistake in my opinion. I was at 10 at this point, and he could have tried to just kill me if he drew another burn spell. So sorin went to 2 loyalty. His +1 drew me a painful truth, which i could resolve. I get a shatter and an avacyn and he scooped after seeing both cards.
Game 2: This one went rather quick. A turn 2 thing, which he couldnt anwser flipped on turn 5 and killed his jace. After that he scooped and said that he had no answer to this.
Game 4 vs Jund: 2:1
Game 1: He stumpled on black Mana and turn 5 ojutai took a quick win.
Game 2: I kept a hand with little removal and was quickly punished for that as his deck did what it was supposed to do. A resolved sin prodder which i could not handle until 2 turns later had dealt serious damage to my life total, because i had to bin a goblin dark dweller which could have flashed back kolaghans command. After i thought i could come back into the game, he resolved a chandra, which i slaughtered in response to the tokens. But the second chandra a turn later let me scoop instantly.
Game 3: He get manascrewed after a mulligan to 5, so a turn 7 ojutai could get the win.
Game 5 vs BW Control: 2:0
Game 1: He mulliganed to 5. Turn 2 and 3 transgress from me took the read the bones in his hand, so he could never find a 4th mana, which let to a quick win after i could resolve a turn 6 Sorin.
Game 2: This was a long one. I transgressed his hand, and he duresses mine. After several turns where we just drew a card, played a land and said go, he played a secure the wastes for 7 which i could counter. On my turn i played an ayli. Eot he played another secure the wastes, this time for 8, which i let resolve. On his turn he sacrificed 5 tokens to the abtei and attacked with this 9/7 lifelink demon. Unmaking saved me there, then i flashed in avacyn, reanimated a manland and sacrificed it to ayli, which let avacyn flip on my turn and ended the game right there.
Problems:
The deck is really good, but my version has some undeniable issues.
1) The Jund matchup. You really have to exile everything they play, because a lategame den protector / pulse of murasa loop is a serious problem. So is dark dweller. The Gitrog Monster is a nightmare if you cant kill it immediately. I guess i would have lost that matchup, if my opponent had not drewed so terrible.
2) W/X Humans. Engulf was here because of this deck and the secure the wastes / Gideon or Abtei combo. It does this well, but doesnt deserve a maindeck place, it should go to the sideboard. I guess pre board it is just not a good matchup, and because of this it is possible that some changes are needed. We will see how dominant humans are in the future.
3) Control Matchups. In testing i had serious problems to close out games where my opponent could handle Avacyn, Sorin and Ojutai. This is why Gideon was added, just to have another threat which could take a game.
In this FNM he was more or less a liability and i wished i just had a 3rd Avacyn and some more card draw. I think i will have to test him some more, because he is undeniable useful against RG Eldrazi Ramp. Maybe i have to give Kamahl credit for his learn from the past.
What to change?
Overall the metagame is not yet established, so the deck could need some serious changes in the future, but for now i am fine with it.
For the next FNM i will change this:
- Engulf from maindeck into the sideboard. Cut Fathom Feeder.
- Add a second Anticipate.
- I try a 3rd Avacyn and 1 Learn from the Past mainddeck, instead of Gideon.
Are delirium cards bad in this deck?
Well, if you are playing this cards for the delirium effect, then they are bad. To tell the truth i rarly have delirium ready when i play to the slaughter. But it is the best (i know this is just my oppinion) Planeswalker removal, at instant speed, that we have at the moment. More then 2 unmakings are not possible and more than 1 silumgar's command would be silly, although it is my pet card.
Ruinous path is not an option because of the double black in the mana cost. My deck is mainly blue/white with a black splash, and i tried path and kalitas because they are so strong cards. But the double black is a real problem on crucial turns. Slaughter on the other hand is perfect splashable and late in the game when we can stick a flipped jace, we have delirium ready most of the time and then it can turn games around where path could not.
Descend upon the sinful is mostly in the deck, because of its exile effect. The delirium angel is just icing on the cake. If you want a faster board wipe, you can go and take planar outburst in this slot, but i think the exile effect is to important at the moment. Planar outburst gives you a creature more reliable, but is also more mana intensive. I will stick with descend for now.
Thanks for reading! Keep up with this thread! We need an Esper Control Deck in Standard!
Hey guys, it's been quiet on the Esper front but I just wanted to draw attention to the Esper Control deck that Shaheen Soorani (one of the best control players in competitive) posted.
In the article he concedes that Esper Dragons isn't a thing (in your face early detractors!) and his deck is starting to look a lot more like what I and others have been brewing here. He hasn't competed with the deck yet, so I'm sure it's going to change more. Right now he's more splashing black than running it heavily, and puts most of his stock in white. Honestly I think he will keep moving towards what we have going here which makes me pretty happy. I hope control can come out on top, it's my favorite playstyle and it's recieved very little WoTC love the past several rotations.
Anywho, just wanted to inject some life back into the discussion and give some hope to my fellow Esper players. I'm playing my Esper deck for the first time this weekend and I'll report back with my results. I'm not sure what the local meta is going to consist of yet so I'm going in pretty blind. We will see!
I don't want this to sound at all combative, so it fit is, please say something. Seth Manfield's Esper Control is currently in the Top 4, as is Shota Yasooka's Esper Dragons. It sounds to me like both of these decks are viable right now, based on that.
In his Bio, Manfield said he built the deck to have untapped land on turn 2 for Anticipate, tapped on turn 3 (since many of his spells cost 2, that's okay), and untapped on turn 4 for Languish. He's also pushed heavily away from both blue and white, choosing to focus on black as his deck's core. I think it's a good choice for a meta that has a lot of aggro, and his Top 4 (so far, he's still alive) certainly seems to agree.
He's selected Blue and White spells that have only a light color requirement early, like Spell Shrivel, to ease up on the deck's mana, and I approve of a lack of Declaration in Stone. That card is quite strong, but I'm concerned it's allowing aggro to recover from sweepers and other removal better than we'd like, and I'm sure that's also why he removed it.
One thing I disagree with is the Jaces in his sideboard. I think they're good enough to run in the main deck with Ojutai's Command backup. He did it to present a removal-proof maindeck, but I still disagree with his choice.
I love how close Manfield's deck is to mine, even including Sphinx of the Final Word which I brought up here and people starting putting in their decklists. I wont say that he got the idea from me, but I'm feeling a lot of validation right now considering how much resistance my decklist has been getting here. Seeing a decklist very close to my homebrew in the Top 8 feels good.
Edit:
I created a post in the Established forum since I believe the PT results elevate us there.
@Celestreal: Are you going to write out a primer for it? If not, I'll give it a shot and accept help with it. I'll use Manfield's and Soorani's lists as my base points of reference. Probably won't be done before tomorrow evening, though.
Yeah when I get home from work I plan on working on it. Want to coauthor it with me? I'm not sure if they are even keeping that post or not, but we can get started. It took it's place in the Top 8 so it's going to get a spot in there eventually.
Sure. I got a surprising amount done before today's busy part of the day. I did assessments of the common card choices for 'walkers, creatures, and card draw. I was starting removal when I had to go. We could set up a google doc or something if you'd like.
I don't want this to sound at all combative, so it fit is, please say something. Seth Manfield's Esper Control is currently in the Top 4, as is Shota Yasooka's Esper Dragons. It sounds to me like both of these decks are viable right now, based on that.
In his Bio, Manfield said he built the deck to have untapped land on turn 2 for Anticipate, tapped on turn 3 (since many of his spells cost 2, that's okay), and untapped on turn 4 for Languish. He's also pushed heavily away from both blue and white, choosing to focus on black as his deck's core. I think it's a good choice for a meta that has a lot of aggro, and his Top 4 (so far, he's still alive) certainly seems to agree.
He's selected Blue and White spells that have only a light color requirement early, like Spell Shrivel, to ease up on the deck's mana, and I approve of a lack of Declaration in Stone. That card is quite strong, but I'm concerned it's allowing aggro to recover from sweepers and other removal better than we'd like, and I'm sure that's also why he removed it.
One thing I disagree with is the Jaces in his sideboard. I think they're good enough to run in the main deck with Ojutai's Command backup. He did it to present a removal-proof maindeck, but I still disagree with his choice.
Just to respond to part of this. I actually do agree with the lack of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the main deck. The planeswalkers that are in the main have such overwhelmingly high loyalty that they're really hard for your opponent to get rid of without over-committing and being punished for it (they certainly can't ignore them either). They're going to have Declaration in Stone and Stasis Snares and Grasp of Darkness and Fiery Impulse just rotting in their hands as completely dead cards. Even a land would be more useful to them, and they can't Reflector Mage him either (which is the most miserable thing ever). Then they side out all their removal and you bring in Jace and now he's really hard to answer. I think blanking your opponent's entire removal suite (8+ cards in some decks, over 10% of their deck total) is completely worth eschewing Jace from the maindeck. What's your opponent supposed to do, leave in dead cards assuming you have Jace in the sideboard? If they're wrong, they're completely screwed. Adding Ojutai's Command and Jace (say 2 and 4 copies respectively) dilutes the black core of the deck by adding more blue and white, which means re-examining the mana base. I don't even know what I'd cut in this deck for Jace + Command. I think Team East/West Bowl's build of Esper is pretty spot on.
I'm gonna be sleeving this bad boy up for FNM this week and am considering locking into it for Grand Prix Manchester next month. It seems so much better than trying to force Esper Dragons (which I think only made it to the Top 8 because it was in the hands of Shota Yasooka rather than the deck being any good right now) or playing something completely out of my wheelhouse like Bant or Humans.
I don't want this to sound at all combative, so it fit is, please say something. Seth Manfield's Esper Control is currently in the Top 4, as is Shota Yasooka's Esper Dragons. It sounds to me like both of these decks are viable right now, based on that.
In his Bio, Manfield said he built the deck to have untapped land on turn 2 for Anticipate, tapped on turn 3 (since many of his spells cost 2, that's okay), and untapped on turn 4 for Languish. He's also pushed heavily away from both blue and white, choosing to focus on black as his deck's core. I think it's a good choice for a meta that has a lot of aggro, and his Top 4 (so far, he's still alive) certainly seems to agree.
He's selected Blue and White spells that have only a light color requirement early, like Spell Shrivel, to ease up on the deck's mana, and I approve of a lack of Declaration in Stone. That card is quite strong, but I'm concerned it's allowing aggro to recover from sweepers and other removal better than we'd like, and I'm sure that's also why he removed it.
One thing I disagree with is the Jaces in his sideboard. I think they're good enough to run in the main deck with Ojutai's Command backup. He did it to present a removal-proof maindeck, but I still disagree with his choice.
Just to respond to part of this. I actually do agree with the lack of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the main deck. The planeswalkers that are in the main have such overwhelmingly high loyalty that they're really hard for your opponent to get rid of without over-committing and being punished for it (they certainly can't ignore them either). They're going to have Declaration in Stone and Stasis Snares and Grasp of Darkness and Fiery Impulse just rotting in their hands as completely dead cards. Even a land would be more useful to them, and they can't Reflector Mage him either (which is the most miserable thing ever). Then they side out all their removal and you bring in Jace and now he's really hard to answer. I think blanking your opponent's entire removal suite (8+ cards in some decks, over 10% of their deck total) is completely worth eschewing Jace from the maindeck. What's your opponent supposed to do, leave in dead cards assuming you have Jace in the sideboard? If they're wrong, they're completely screwed. Adding Ojutai's Command and Jace (say 2 and 4 copies respectively) dilutes the black core of the deck by adding more blue and white, which means re-examining the mana base. I don't even know what I'd cut in this deck for Jace + Command. I think Team East/West Bowl's build of Esper is pretty spot on.
I'm gonna be sleeving this bad boy up for FNM this week and am considering locking into it for Grand Prix Manchester next month. It seems so much better than trying to force Esper Dragons (which I think only made it to the Top 8 because it was in the hands of Shota Yasooka rather than the deck being any good right now) or playing something completely out of my wheelhouse like Bant or Humans.
I understand, and I'm sure it's not a bad plan. Maybe I'll give it a spin tonight at playtesting and see how it goes. My concern about that is that he's been a source of draw-smoothing for me before I get the walkers up, and I'm not sure I'm ready to lose that.
Sure, but the list has 4x Anticipate, 2x Dark Petition and every Planeswalker in the list draws cards. Jace regularly died as soon as he was played and drew you zero cards anyway. You're just used to playing him as part of a sequence.
It boils down to quantity vs quality. If I scry 2 and it's two lands, and I'm already in the midst of being flooded, it's entirely more important than I be able to put those two lands on the bottom of my deck and draw two different cards. The odds that it's two more lands are pretty slim statistically, so chances are I'll draw SOMETHING I could use. In this deck especially, I feel that it's more important to draw what specifically you need versus a handful of stuff you don't, which is why filtering is a big theme here through Anticipate, Read the Bones, Jace US, Jace VP, etc. Dump or bottom deck what you don't need, draw up what you do. Card advantage is no advantage if you're holding a full, but mostly useless hand.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Dragonlord Silumgar has a bigger ass on him than Dragonlord Ojutai and Ojutai is remarkably brittle these days. If you want a dragon that has roughly the same amount of risk, I think Dragonlord Silumgar has a lot more built in power right now and having Haven of the Spirit Dragon means you can still get that dragon recursion value. As for Alhammarret, High Arbiter, his ability being As he inters the battlefield, means you can scout for lat game removal that might stop you from closing the game and just shut it down on the spot. His body is otherwise less than stellar, but his body means you get the perks of being able to get around edict effects and spot removal depending on the situation. If we are being completely honest though, I am not really a fan of either of them - nor am I a fan of any creature atm.
The trade off here is that relying on planeswalkers is remarkably slow, and you run the risk of just decking yourself. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is just not fun on the 3 color mana base, and Narset Transcendent might as well just be Sorin, Grim Nemesis because he can actually draw you the card if it is a land... but once again, he is just slow and clunky at killing an opponent when you need to be able to put real pressure on them.
Running a straight UW or UB deck might just be better right now. You will be able to run Gideon more consistently and you still have access to a ton of great spot removal spells in W for a decent draw go game if you manage to get your foot in the door. Your other option of straight UB means you are getting access to some great disruption options at the cost of missing out on Sorin, Grim Nemesis and Anguished Unmaking, but you get to use more life to draw cards with black draw spells instead - and you can still get Dragonlord Silumgar in there at the 6 mana slot. The biggest appeal of UB is Flaying Tendrils, but UW gets Declaration in Stone
I feel like Esper is just needing to do way too much at once, so it is likely best to just focus on a UW or UB shell right now. It is a damn shame that Madness is such a trash control mechanic for now :(, but in the mean time I think the key should be to focus on building around having access to more sweepers. Going two colors even opens you up to exploring Corrupted Grafstone and Brain in a Jar to get to a bigger game faster, either by ramping or letting you get in some free spells while leaving mana up so you can use virtual mana as you move into the later stages of the game.
UW Azorius Control
The real selling point of UW is going to be the ability to EOT Secure the Wastes into Ormendahl, Profane Prince, but what makes blue appealing is the ability to use counter magic for disruption and you can back it up with some great removal options in white. There are so many white removal spells on the cheap, and they should not be that difficult to get online. Another payout is the ability to mitigate damage using Gideon, Ally of Zendikar tokens and clean the board up with Planar Outburst to start laying in beats for a quick close. Overall, UW is going to give you a faster closing game at the cost of having to tap out in some spots that might be generally unfavorable no matter how you swing it. Getting to use counter magic like Clash of Wills, Scatter to the Winds, and even Confirm Suspicions can make for a solid game when backed by Celestial Flare, Swift Reckoning, Immolating Glare - can make for a solid draw go game, only tapping out to start putting pressure on or to seize an opportunity to stabilize. Having access to Declaration in Stone is also utterly fantastic.
UB Dimir Control
I think there is a lot more to have with UB, mainly your cheap instant speed removal options to add to your counter suite. There is less need to tap out and you are less restricted in the early game on what your removal is hitting or what other casting stipulations may exist. Silumgar's Command seems like a really powerful card here, giving you the ability to punish their mana base in addition to answering planeswalkers or creatures. There is not a lot of 2 for 1 value in Control right now, and that means this card is capable of doing an incredible amount of work. Focusing on Dragonlord Silumgar means you can quickly close a game with proper set up, and also gives you access to the dragon cards - making your draw go game a bit stronger. Sure, UW can run Dragonlord Ojutai but I just think there are better things to be doing if you are on white. Their ability to close the game is much more efficient, where UB is not and it needs those dragon cards.
Personally, I will likely be focusing on UB Control for now.
4 Dragonlord Silumgar
Planeswalker
3 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Removal
2 Ruinous Path
2 Grasp of Darkness
4 Languish
3 Foul-Tongue Invocation
2 Ultimate Price
Disruption
4 Silumgar's Scorn
2 Scatter to the Winds
1 Confirm Suspicions
2 Silumgar's Command
3 Anticipate
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
1 Learn from the Past
Land
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
3 Evolving Wilds
2 Blighted Cataract
3 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
5 Island
5 Swamp
2 Negate
1 Dispel
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Duress
1 Transgress the Mind
3 Flaying Tendrils
1 Ultimate Price
2 Foul Renewal
1 Caves of Koilos 1W1B
3 Choked Estuary 3U3B
2 Evolving Wilds 2W2U2B
3 Island 3U
1 Plains 1W
3 Port Town 3W3U
4 Prairie Stream 4W4U
3 Shambling Vent 3W3B
4 Sunken Hollow 4U4B
1 Swamp 1U
13 W
19 U
13 B
The last time I really played Standard, the thing to do was to cram as many dual lands into a deck as possible (Glacial Fortress, Shocks, or the Scars Block lands), then fill with basics and Evolving Wilds as necessary. For example, my Venser Control list in Zendikar/Scars of Mirrodin ran 4 Glacial Fortress, 4 Seachrome Coast, and 4 Celestial Colonnade, plus a roughly even distribution of Islands and Plains. That's more or less what I did for my first manabase for this deck. I wanted to play a utility land in Blighted Cataract, 4 Evolving Wilds, and then at least one of each basic land.
However, I think that the battle lands and shadow lands push us in some really awkward directions. No matter what we do, it's not realistic to assume we'll have all our lands come into play untapped. According to the article I've linked at the bottom of this post, we'd need 10 basic lands for a 75% untapped rate on Shadowlands on turn 3, or 6 basics for a roughly 50% untapped rate. To get the same numbers, we'd need 16 basics for Battlelands. That tells me that we're going to want to favor Shadowlands slightly.
At the moment, I think our biggest concerns need to be hitting U for Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and W for Declaration in Stone on turn two, then BB for Languish on turn 4. My reasoning behind this is that, as of the SCG Baltimore, the top 8 was 4 Humans aggro decks, 1 Bant Company deck, and a couple of midrange decks (plus one control build). To deal with that, we're going to want our removal online earlier. So, if those are our priorities, we need to have 14 sources of W and U, as well as 17 sources of B. We need to go a bit heavier on the blue than on white because we have several UU cards we want to cast more or less on time as well, including Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and Void Shatter. So, with that in mind, here's the current sample manabase I'm aiming for.
1 Plains 1W
4 Swamp 4B
1 Island 1U
4 Choked Estuary 4U4B
3 Port Town 3W3U
2 Prairie Stream 2W2U
3 Sunken Hollow 3U3B
3 Shambling Vent 3W3B
1 Caves of Koilos 1W1B
4 Evolving Wilds 3W3U3B
13 W
16 U
17 B
What this should give us is a relatively stable manabase. It's got less sources of blue mana but more of black. I'm not sure how to get the white mana up to 14+ without compromising black, which is something I'm even less happy with doing. I might go with less Shambling Vents and more Caves of Koilos. Keep in mind that this is all fairly theorycrafted at the moment and that I haven't yet put this manabase through testing.
Basis for Methodology
================================================================================================================================================
In an unrelated note, I picked up a playset of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy. They won't be here until after this Friday unless a miracle happens, but when they get here, I'm aiming for the following list.
1 Plains
4 Swamp
1 Island
4 Choked Estuary
3 Port Town
2 Prairie Stream
3 Sunken Hollow
3 Shambling Vent
1 Caves of Koilos
4 Evolving Wilds
Creatures 5
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Narset Transcendent
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Sorceries 8
4 Declaration in Stone
4 Languish
Instants 16
4 Anticipate
3 Void Shatter
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Ojutai's Command
2 To the Slaughter
2 Ultimate Price
1 Comparative Analysis
3 Negate
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Duress
2 Immolating Glare
2 Transgress the Mind
1 Engulf the Shore
1 Infinite Obliteration
1 Learn from the Past
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
I got rid of Clash of Wills entirely. It seems to me that against aggro we want to have more removal so that even if we don't have it in hand when threats hit the table, we have a higher chance of drawing into it, so they were replaced with 2 Ultimate Price. Besides, I don't like Clash of Wills past about turn 4 anyways; it costs too much for what you get.
I'm also running Ojutai's Command main because I think it's a good card to have vs. aggro. Letting Jace chump aggro's biggest threat with the promise of bringing him back later seems like a decent line of play, and there's shenanigans to be had with Narset/Flipped Jace as well.
Since the main deck is (hopefully) going to be able to handle aggro, I decided to let the sideboard be focused on beating the control/midrange matchups. I was running Surge of Righteousness instead of Immolating Glare, but I just don' think there's enough things it hits for it to be in the 75 right now. Time will tell.
Regarding Clash of Wills, I'm thinking I'm going to reduce it to a 1x then throw 2x Negate in. I'm not super pressed to counterspell creatures, and if I do I probably want to do it with Void Shatter for the exile.
Regarding Languish... why 4x? I can't see having more than 2 mainboard.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
Caves of Koilos is an untapped black and white land that helps guarantee being able to cast Anguished Unmaking, Ojutai's Command, Declaration in Stone and all the black removal on time. You underestimate how important that can be, even if you have to pay 1 life. Esper used to play 2+ before we had fetchable duals and that was when our only white spell was Ojutai. You will absolutely want to pay 1 life if it means being able to cast your spell when needed.
After having watched the coverage for the SCG Open on the weekend, if the meta is anything similar I wouldn't leave home with anything less than 3x Languish in the main deck. Control is used to playing a full set of sweepers historically in creature heavy formats (especially when those creatures are small, and we've just lost all of the X/5s that dominated standard for so long) and this is looking like one of them. 3-4 copies means you're really likely to see one in each game, which is exactly what you want. If you're not pressuring their life with Dragons, you need to reliably sweep the board and sweep it repeatedly. Jace, VP helps with that but doesn't guarantee it.
That's 6 decks in the top 8 that had 20+ creatures, and they're creatures that are resistant to death thanks to Avacyn being played in all of them. That's enough for Languish to be really, really good in my opinion. I'm running 4x because it's the difference between living and dying.
Similarly, I'm not going to be using Caves of Koilos to stop one or two damage. I'm using it to cast D-Stone on Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit or Thalia's Lieutenant turn 2, or setting up a turn 4 Languish to stop my opponent's lethal attack. I'm viewing it the same way that people viewed fetchlands or that you view Anguished Unmaking right now. The life is a resource that I'm using to keep me in the game. I'm not anticipating paying more than 2 or 3 life over the course of the game, but I *am* anticipating that there will be games I win because I was able to interact a turn earlier than I otherwise would have been. And regarding Blighted Cataract, it should be noted that I've switched away from it in favor of the Caves.
Anyways, those are my justifications.
I'm a big fan of this deck, I've been brewing some of my own stuff but this is one of the first decks I really like this standard season. My only worry is that you have the potential to get blown out by an Infinite Obliteration and after testing the deck for some games, I felt that the deck was light on wincons. It definitely wins the grindy games though. Maybe something like Rise from the Tides would help close things out too?
I just played a FNM with this Deck:
1 Swamp
4 Island
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Ojutai's Command
1 Silumgar's Command
3 Sunken Hollow
4 Prairie Stream
4 Shambling Vent
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Plains
4 Declaration in Stone
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Transgress the Mind
3 Choked Estuary
4 Port Town
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Archangel Avacyn
2 Painful Truths
2 To the Slaughter
1 Anticipate
1 Descend upon the Sinful
1 Engulf the Shore
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Void Shatter
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 4 Thing in the Ice
SB: 2 Ultimate Price
SB: 1 Transgress the Mind
SB: 1 Tragic Arrogance
SB: 2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
SB: 1 Linvala, the preserver
SB: 1 Fathom Feeder
Went undefeated against Jund, UR Control, BW Control, Grixxis Control and WG Humans.
Thoughts on this Deck ?
I would like to cut the Fathom Feeder from the board and the engulf from the Main, as they were both underwhelming.
Nice work! Could you tell us more about the different matchups? What worked, what didn't, and what you'd do differently in the future. Maybe how you sideboarded as well?
Also, I agree with you that Engulf the Shore and Fathom Feeder seem underwhelming.
I'll have my own report up later today, most likely.
Additional copies of Anticipate for filtering and card draw would be good options to replace Engulf and Fathom Feeder. For your delirium cards, do you reliably hit delirium on them or not?
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
1 Plains
4 Swamp
1 Island
4 Choked Estuary
3 Port Town
2 Prairie Stream
3 Sunken Hollow
3 Shambling Vent
1 Caves of Koilos
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
Planeswalkers 5
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Narset Transcendent
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Declaration in Stone
2 Languish
1 Descend upon the Sinful
1 Transgress the Mind
Instants 18
4 Anticipate
3 Void Shatter
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Clash of Wills
2 To the Slaughter
2 Ultimate Price
2 Comparative Analysis
1 Learn from the Past
1 Confirm Suspicions
3 Negate
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Duress
2 Immolating Glare
2 Transgress the Mind
1 Engulf the Shore
1 Infinite Obliteration
1 Learn from the Past
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
Well, here's my report, as promised.
Small event, but there were a fair amount of well-tuned decks for this early in a new meta. I went 1-2 with a loss to UR Fevered Visions (1-2), a win against BW Allies (2-0), and a loss to Mono-Red Eldrazi (0-2). It should be noted that this was the first time I actually piloted the deck, rather than goldfishing, and that I've been out of Magic for a couple of years.
UR Fevered Visions: Game One, he got off to a good start with Tutelage/Visions, but I was able to stabilize and take it with man-lands/Ojutai. Game Two, I sided in 10 cards, he sided in 9, and then I mulled down to 5. I ended up racing with a man-land, but wasn't able to take it since he sided in Ojutai hate (!). Game Three, I lost a counter war and missed my opportunity to close with Sorin. This matchup could have gone either way.
WB Allies: Game One I took with a turn 4 Languish, turn 5 Narset, turn 6 Languish, turn 7 rebounded Languish. Game Two, he got off to a quick start and got me to 8 before I could stabilize the first time. Then, he dropped a little ally and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and started swinging for big. I activated my man-land to block, which enabled delirium on To the Slaughter, and ended the game on three life with a Jace and Narset emblem.
Mono-Red Eldrazi: Game One, he chipped away at me with thopters and little weenies, then on turn 5 dropped the first of three Reality Smashers. I lost without being able to do very much. Game Two, I sided in Transgress the Mind and Infinite Obliteration, and actually saw two Transgress early. However, his Thopters got out of control before I could sweep, and I didn't see a Declaration to deal with them. I managed to sweep just before he smashed down a Chandra for the win.
I'll be honest, I'm not sure how to deal with Mono-Red Eldrazi. It seems like letting a Reality Smasher resolve is a serious problem, and they have so much other incremental advantage that you have to deal with it. I'd much appreciate any advice against that one. Overall, I think the deck is solid, or at least can be.
Here is my report:
Round 1 vs WG Humans: 2:0
Game 1: He had a slow hand, so i could trade 1 for 1 with removal until i could hit a ojutai who let me get the win.
SB in: 4 thing,2 ayli,2 price - SB out: 3 transgress, 2 declaration, 2 void shatter
Game 2: This went longer, but an turn 5 engulf with 3 "islands" and a later flipped thing let me get the win with me on low life.
Round 2 vs Grixxis Control: 1:0
Game 1: Typical boring control "mirror". Transgress mainboard was key here, which could let me take kolaghan's commands out of hand and provided valuable information. At the end it was a EOT flashed in avacyn who
took the win.
SB in: 1 transgress, 3 negate, 1 fathom feeder - SB out: 1 engulf, 1 descend, 3 declaration
Game 2: Went into time. But this round would have gone to him probably, because i could not answer a resolved chandra.
Round 3 vs UR Control: 2:0
Game 1: First few turns we just killed our jaces and drew some cards from spells like tormenting voice and painful truth. After some beats i could hit his manland with a to the slaughter and resolve a Sorin on my turn on a stable board. Sorin threatend his -9, so he was forced to deal 7 dmg with fall of the titans to him, which was a mistake in my opinion. I was at 10 at this point, and he could have tried to just kill me if he drew another burn spell. So sorin went to 2 loyalty. His +1 drew me a painful truth, which i could resolve. I get a shatter and an avacyn and he scooped after seeing both cards.
SB in: 3 negate, 4 thing, 2 ultimate Price - SB out: 4 declaration, 1 descend, 1 big jace, 1 engulf, 1 silumgar's command, 1 transgress
Game 2: This one went rather quick. A turn 2 thing, which he couldnt anwser flipped on turn 5 and killed his jace. After that he scooped and said that he had no answer to this.
Game 4 vs Jund: 2:1
Game 1: He stumpled on black Mana and turn 5 ojutai took a quick win.
SB in: 1 transgress, 2 negate, 1 linvala, 2 ultimate price, 1 fathom feeder - SB out: 1 descend, 2 declaration, 1 silumgar's command, 1 engulf, 1 big jace, 1 gideon
Game 2: I kept a hand with little removal and was quickly punished for that as his deck did what it was supposed to do. A resolved sin prodder which i could not handle until 2 turns later had dealt serious damage to my life total, because i had to bin a goblin dark dweller which could have flashed back kolaghans command. After i thought i could come back into the game, he resolved a chandra, which i slaughtered in response to the tokens. But the second chandra a turn later let me scoop instantly.
Game 3: He get manascrewed after a mulligan to 5, so a turn 7 ojutai could get the win.
Game 5 vs BW Control: 2:0
Game 1: He mulliganed to 5. Turn 2 and 3 transgress from me took the read the bones in his hand, so he could never find a 4th mana, which let to a quick win after i could resolve a turn 6 Sorin.
SB in: 3 negate, 1 transgress, 2 ultimate price, 2 ayli - SB out: 1 descend, 2 gideon, 3 declaration, 2 ojutai command
Game 2: This was a long one. I transgressed his hand, and he duresses mine. After several turns where we just drew a card, played a land and said go, he played a secure the wastes for 7 which i could counter. On my turn i played an ayli. Eot he played another secure the wastes, this time for 8, which i let resolve. On his turn he sacrificed 5 tokens to the abtei and attacked with this 9/7 lifelink demon. Unmaking saved me there, then i flashed in avacyn, reanimated a manland and sacrificed it to ayli, which let avacyn flip on my turn and ended the game right there.
Problems:
The deck is really good, but my version has some undeniable issues.
1) The Jund matchup. You really have to exile everything they play, because a lategame den protector / pulse of murasa loop is a serious problem. So is dark dweller. The Gitrog Monster is a nightmare if you cant kill it immediately. I guess i would have lost that matchup, if my opponent had not drewed so terrible.
2) W/X Humans. Engulf was here because of this deck and the secure the wastes / Gideon or Abtei combo. It does this well, but doesnt deserve a maindeck place, it should go to the sideboard. I guess pre board it is just not a good matchup, and because of this it is possible that some changes are needed. We will see how dominant humans are in the future.
3) Control Matchups. In testing i had serious problems to close out games where my opponent could handle Avacyn, Sorin and Ojutai. This is why Gideon was added, just to have another threat which could take a game.
In this FNM he was more or less a liability and i wished i just had a 3rd Avacyn and some more card draw. I think i will have to test him some more, because he is undeniable useful against RG Eldrazi Ramp. Maybe i have to give Kamahl credit for his learn from the past.
What to change?
Overall the metagame is not yet established, so the deck could need some serious changes in the future, but for now i am fine with it.
For the next FNM i will change this:
- Engulf from maindeck into the sideboard. Cut Fathom Feeder.
- Add a second Anticipate.
- I try a 3rd Avacyn and 1 Learn from the Past mainddeck, instead of Gideon.
Are delirium cards bad in this deck?
Well, if you are playing this cards for the delirium effect, then they are bad. To tell the truth i rarly have delirium ready when i play to the slaughter. But it is the best (i know this is just my oppinion) Planeswalker removal, at instant speed, that we have at the moment. More then 2 unmakings are not possible and more than 1 silumgar's command would be silly, although it is my pet card.
Ruinous path is not an option because of the double black in the mana cost. My deck is mainly blue/white with a black splash, and i tried path and kalitas because they are so strong cards. But the double black is a real problem on crucial turns. Slaughter on the other hand is perfect splashable and late in the game when we can stick a flipped jace, we have delirium ready most of the time and then it can turn games around where path could not.
Descend upon the sinful is mostly in the deck, because of its exile effect. The delirium angel is just icing on the cake. If you want a faster board wipe, you can go and take planar outburst in this slot, but i think the exile effect is to important at the moment. Planar outburst gives you a creature more reliable, but is also more mana intensive. I will stick with descend for now.
Thanks for reading! Keep up with this thread! We need an Esper Control Deck in Standard!
Soorani's Article
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Planeswalkers (5)
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Lands (27
5 Island
4 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Choked Estuary
1 Evolving Wilds
3 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
4 Shambling Vent
4 Sunken Hollow
1 Quarantine Field
3 Silkwrap
4 Stasis Snare
2 Clash of Wills
2 Ojutai's Command
3 Scatter to the Winds
2 Silumgar's Command
1 Descend upon the Sinful
4 Painful Truths
2 Planar Outburst
2 Archangel of Tithes
2 Ojutai Exemplars
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Dispel
2 Negate
1 Ojutai's Command
2 Ultimate Price
1 Narset Transcendent
2 Pick the Brain
In the article he concedes that Esper Dragons isn't a thing (in your face early detractors!) and his deck is starting to look a lot more like what I and others have been brewing here. He hasn't competed with the deck yet, so I'm sure it's going to change more. Right now he's more splashing black than running it heavily, and puts most of his stock in white. Honestly I think he will keep moving towards what we have going here which makes me pretty happy. I hope control can come out on top, it's my favorite playstyle and it's recieved very little WoTC love the past several rotations.
Anywho, just wanted to inject some life back into the discussion and give some hope to my fellow Esper players. I'm playing my Esper deck for the first time this weekend and I'll report back with my results. I'm not sure what the local meta is going to consist of yet so I'm going in pretty blind. We will see!
WUBEsper ControlWUB
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
3 Narset Transcendent
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Creature (1)
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
Sorcery (9)
2 Dark Petition
4 Languish
1 Planar Outburst
2 Ruinous Path
Instant (15)
4 Anticipate
4 Grasp of Darkness
1 Silumgar's Command
2 Spell Shrivel
4 Ultimate Price
1 Choked Estuary
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Prairie Stream
4 Shambling Vent
4 Sunken Hollow
6 Swamp
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Duress
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Negate
1 Transgress the Mind
In his Bio, Manfield said he built the deck to have untapped land on turn 2 for Anticipate, tapped on turn 3 (since many of his spells cost 2, that's okay), and untapped on turn 4 for Languish. He's also pushed heavily away from both blue and white, choosing to focus on black as his deck's core. I think it's a good choice for a meta that has a lot of aggro, and his Top 4 (so far, he's still alive) certainly seems to agree.
He's selected Blue and White spells that have only a light color requirement early, like Spell Shrivel, to ease up on the deck's mana, and I approve of a lack of Declaration in Stone. That card is quite strong, but I'm concerned it's allowing aggro to recover from sweepers and other removal better than we'd like, and I'm sure that's also why he removed it.
One thing I disagree with is the Jaces in his sideboard. I think they're good enough to run in the main deck with Ojutai's Command backup. He did it to present a removal-proof maindeck, but I still disagree with his choice.
Edit:
I created a post in the Established forum since I believe the PT results elevate us there.
WUBEsper ControlWUB
WUBEsper ControlWUB
WUBEsper ControlWUB
EDIT: I made this Google Doc. It's open to collaboration.
Just to respond to part of this. I actually do agree with the lack of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the main deck. The planeswalkers that are in the main have such overwhelmingly high loyalty that they're really hard for your opponent to get rid of without over-committing and being punished for it (they certainly can't ignore them either). They're going to have Declaration in Stone and Stasis Snares and Grasp of Darkness and Fiery Impulse just rotting in their hands as completely dead cards. Even a land would be more useful to them, and they can't Reflector Mage him either (which is the most miserable thing ever). Then they side out all their removal and you bring in Jace and now he's really hard to answer. I think blanking your opponent's entire removal suite (8+ cards in some decks, over 10% of their deck total) is completely worth eschewing Jace from the maindeck. What's your opponent supposed to do, leave in dead cards assuming you have Jace in the sideboard? If they're wrong, they're completely screwed. Adding Ojutai's Command and Jace (say 2 and 4 copies respectively) dilutes the black core of the deck by adding more blue and white, which means re-examining the mana base. I don't even know what I'd cut in this deck for Jace + Command. I think Team East/West Bowl's build of Esper is pretty spot on.
I'm gonna be sleeving this bad boy up for FNM this week and am considering locking into it for Grand Prix Manchester next month. It seems so much better than trying to force Esper Dragons (which I think only made it to the Top 8 because it was in the hands of Shota Yasooka rather than the deck being any good right now) or playing something completely out of my wheelhouse like Bant or Humans.
I understand, and I'm sure it's not a bad plan. Maybe I'll give it a spin tonight at playtesting and see how it goes. My concern about that is that he's been a source of draw-smoothing for me before I get the walkers up, and I'm not sure I'm ready to lose that.
The Google Doc, if anyone's interested in piling in.