This is my take on Dimir Midrange. There are a few things I'm iffy on which I'll need to tune once I gauge the Meta. These might be -3 Sinister Sabotage or -4 Fungal Infection for Cast Down or Murder / Price of Fame. Maybe the unexplained Disappearance for a discovery // dispersal. At first Glance I think fungal infection could be really strong against aggro, but I could be wrong. Creatures are so Top heavy these days.
The biggest thing about this deck is Nightveil Sprite he is a slightly worse Glint-Sleeve Siphoner but still gets the job done. He also brings back Blood Operative
I would test Fungal infection Against Aggro and tokens. If it doesn't do well you may have to adjust the deck to be a bit lower to the ground and be a bit more aggressive.
"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
Well I had some feed back on reddit, and My mana base is lacking, I'm thinking of cutting 2 of each swamp/island for 4 dimir guild gate unfortunately. but maybe cutting 1-2 field of ruin and only running 2-3 guildgate would work.
I had been thinking of putting together a Dimir list for new standard. Looking through your list Fungal Infection seems like a gem I had forgotten about before.
Great Targets for Fungal Infection: Elvish Mystic, Pelt Collector, Haunted Witness, Swiftblade Vindicator, Dauntless Bodyguard, Skymarcher Aspirant, Adanto Vanguard,
Any X/2 can potentially be blown out with it too.
The Dream Eater/Doom Whisperer split seems to be a hedge against it being so early in the format (which is better? My gut is Doom Whisperer). Nightveil Sprite seems...pretty medium early or late, maybe max out on the Hostage Takers instead? Vraska's Contempt is too powerful to not have as a four of. (Cast down?)
Also, as having Read the Bones as one of my favorite cards, you need to have Rain of Notions somewhere in your 75.
Between rain of notions blood operative and doom whisperer we'll kill ourselves. I don't believe we need 4 contempt, but if we do I'll add it. Nightveil Sprite is amazing. I'm swapping sinister for cast down.
You sure you need nightveil predator? If you pull that then your mana should make sense since you would only need 15 blues and the rest could be black. Swapping Sinister Sabotage out would make sense.
Also the guildgates come in tap so that would kinda slow the deck down. You could cut 1-2 field of ruin and then add 2 swamps.
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"To keep things 100, anything I state is an opinion and not intended to be a fact. Any and all suggestions I give are a 100% opinion. If you need further clarification take the conversation to a PM. I am not in the business of assuming things. I'm only interested in 1 business and that business serves 2 things, Cold L's and Hot Dub's."
You sure you need nightveil predator? If you pull that then your mana should make sense since you would only need 15 blues and the rest could be black. Swapping Sinister Sabotage out would make sense.
Also the guildgates come in tap so that would kinda slow the deck down. You could cut 1-2 field of ruin and then add 2 swamps.
This is exactly what I'm thinking, but what to replace the predators? Another operative and hostage taker? Chupacabra?
I have been extensively testing Jeskai Control (the deck I was most likely on), and per usual wanted to throw something else together, to test against. We built multiple variations of all of the decks that we thought would matter in the first couple weeks of a post rotation meta. I played this a few times and realized it had some legs. Some of the numbers might not be proper, but this seems like a hell of a start for sure. I'll keep you guys updated with any results for sure!
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Dead at birth as we slowly decay - We're born only to fade away
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Our life is pain and it's hard to cope.
I have been extensively testing Jeskai Control (the deck I was most likely on), and per usual wanted to throw something else together, to test against. We built multiple variations of all of the decks that we thought would matter in the first couple weeks of a post rotation meta. I played this a few times and realized it had some legs. Some of the numbers might not be proper, but this seems like a hell of a start for sure. I'll keep you guys updated with any results for sure!
I think this is the right direction. Thief Of Sanity looks great. I still prefer Chemister's Insight to Notion Rain. Instant and Jump Start are too good to pass up IMO. Also, there's no life loss.
The life loss can be a little rough sometimes, but the card selection you get from Notion Rain is crucial. I do love Chemister's Insight, but I like it in control decks. In that style of deck, you are holding up mana for counter-magic, or other interactions. Taking that into consideration, it makes the instant speed aspect of the card relevant. Here we don't necessarily have that here. After testing with Chemister's Insight in Jeskai Control, (9 leagues in), I definitely have an idea of how powerful that card can be. Perhaps there is a way to split the difference on the card advantage spells. Maybe 3/1 in favor of Notion Rain? Hell, maybe even a 2/2 split.
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Dead at birth as we slowly decay - We're born only to fade away
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On another note, it would be nice to have a way to recuperate some of the life loss. Blood Operative sucks, and there's not really any Gifted Aetherborn typ card that I can think of.
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Dead at birth as we slowly decay - We're born only to fade away
We got no future, we got no hope
Our life is pain and it's hard to cope.
On another note, it would be nice to have a way to recuperate some of the life loss. Blood Operative sucks, and there's not really any Gifted Aetherborn typ card that I can think of.
That's why I don't like it. Red/Boros, and maybe G/GB will have your life total stressed, and you have little to no life gain. Doom Whisperer wants your life, too. Also, taking a turn off to draw two is dangerous.
Some thoughts from my own random testing (focusing more on surveil, but there's still some value):
1. Blood Operative is probably not worth it mainboard, maybe at all? Might need it's own dedicated deck (feel like he works better in U/W where you can get some lifegain). I think i've got 1 of in my deck and mostly because sometimes that graveyard hate is nice, or I get into late game dig through my deck mode and want a reusable threat. If you do run them I think you have to be careful about relying on notion rain/Doom whisperer for your surveil triggers.
2. I run 4 Discovery // Dispersal and have almost 0 regrets about it. The dig is great and the second half has wound up relevant in those end game grindy top deck scenarios. Hell i've used it to bounce a seal away/similar spell and get in for lethal they weren't expecting. I might go to 3 just because digging into them repeatedly can suck, but no less.
3. Since someone else mentioned it, I think dream eater/doom whisperer serve different purposes and make sense having both, although post board you might drop all of one. The flash + bounce + surveil on dream is a super nasty combo that often winds up setting you up for the win. Either they blow something countering the dream eater so you can sneak something else through, or they don't and plan on removing it, but you get to hit their tempo and dig for a followup threat (which on 4 surveil you're likely to hit). Hell i'd say it's almost better than doom in this sort of deck where the only payoff from the surveil other than the filter is recurring blood operatives, which is expensive as hell on life total.
Some card I haven't seen mentioned here are: Dire Fleet Poisoner (flash + deathtouch), Hostage Taker (2-for-1) and Demonlord Belzenlok (big and draws card/s) which should pretty good in a midrange shell imho.
Here is my version of the deck (I saw this list and tweaked it to my liking):
Some more ideas for creatures in this deck are: Murmuring Mystic as a slow tokens generator and Isareth the Awakener for reanimating creatures (a mini Scarab God).
Where do we stand on Disinformation Campaign? I am personally really interested to see if it could become a staple in a mid-range core more focused around control perhaps?
Where do we stand on Disinformation Campaign? I am personally really interested to see if it could become a staple in a mid-range core more focused around control perhaps?
Meh, I love the card in limited. But no one has been able to break it wide open in constructed.
I want to try going Connive // Concoct into a Dream Eater. There's a lot of 2 power creatures running around right now and the ability to dig for something useful like that seems really good. I could see someone running a surveil deck that could run something like a combo of Bone Dragon, Doom Whisperer, and Dream Eater as the top end. Probably with spy bug as a backup win con.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I've been having a bit of success online with a hybrid version of the mono blue aggro deck that forgoes some of the top end bombs in favor of a more tempo-ish gameplan:
I think at this stage in the meta the tempo-play is probably well suited. Aggro is always easier than control and mid-range, early on. I am still interested in seeing if I can make Disinformation Campaign the mid-range winner I feel it must be, but need to get to grips with the new format first. I see very few lists are running Dimir Spybug - what are people's experiences? Is it by any chance too slow late game?
Dimir Spybug is way too fragile early on, and way too slow late game. Also the fact that you'd almost always want to play Thought Erasure on turn 2 makes him even worse.
I think at this stage in the meta the tempo-play is probably well suited. Aggro is always easier than control and mid-range, early on. I am still interested in seeing if I can make Disinformation Campaign the mid-range winner I feel it must be, but need to get to grips with the new format first. I see very few lists are running Dimir Spybug - what are people's experiences? Is it by any chance too slow late game?
The way the format is set up right now it is surprisingly unrewarding to play giant creatures:
In my experience Disinformation Campaign works best in the late game as a pseudo-wincon. If you play it early most decks are able to either overcome the value or just kill you before the value becomes important.
The four drop slot is so crowded in Dimir: Hostage Taker, Ravenous Chupacabra, Nightveil Predator, Vraska's Contempt, Ritual of Soot, Chemister's Insight etc. All of these are "very good" cards.
Hostage Taker: Great against green decks. There are very few ways they can deal with it. Medium-minus against red decks. Easily killed. If they get their card back, it usually has some sort of value. Very mediocre against control decks.
Chupacabra: Great against green decks, full stop. Better against red decks, gets value ETB and usually trades. Mediocre against control decks.
Nightveil Predator: Great against green decks. Great blocker. Usually deals 9-12 damage if I stick it on time. Usually too slow against red decks. GREAT against control decks (if it sticks).
Vraska's Contempt: Great against everything. Sometimes it can be switched out for cheaper removal against Mono-red.
Ritual Of Soot: I'm higher and higher on this card the more I play it. Plays so nicely with Hostage Taker,Chupacabra, and Nightveil predator. Wrecks green decks. Wrecks little white decks. Awful against control and seems really awkward versus Boros angles.
Chemister's insight: Love it. Still love Notion Rain, but Chemister's insight is a great way of getting rid of dead cards in the right matchups. Really nice to play early. Really nice to jump start late.
Where is the metagame going? We have threats/answers to face any deck, but not enough room to fit all of them.
Looking at last weekend's online PTQ there were only three decks with any of Vine Mare, Nullhide Ferox, or Carnage Tyrant in the top 32. None in the straight Golgari builds. Two Carnage Tyrants were in a sideboard of a deck in the SCG Classic. They are problem cards, but The Eldest Reborn can mitigate some of that.
I did forget Price of Fame! If Boros Angels sticks around then I feel like it will become much more of a player.
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May even swap Notion Rain in for Sinister Sabotage
Sideboard is kinda meh placeholders.
The biggest thing about this deck is Nightveil Sprite he is a slightly worse Glint-Sleeve Siphoner but still gets the job done. He also brings back Blood Operative
4 Nightveil Sprite
3 Blood Operative
2 Doom Whisperer
2 Dream Eater
3 Midnight Reaper
Enchantments (2)
2 Search for Azcanta
Spells (18)
3 Essence scatter
3 Cast Down
3 Vraska's Contempt
4 Fungal Infection
3 Chemister's Insight
2 Discovery // Dispersal
6 Island
7 Swamp
3 Dimir Guildgate
2 Field of Ruin
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Watery Grave
3 Negate
3 Thought Erasure
2 Sentinel Totem
1 Unmoored Ego
3 Ritual of Soot
3 Vona's hunger
I think Thought Erasure should be main deckable.
Murder isn't all that great.
I would test Fungal infection Against Aggro and tokens. If it doesn't do well you may have to adjust the deck to be a bit lower to the ground and be a bit more aggressive.
Do you think you need all 4 field of Ruin?
-Stay Frosty
Great Targets for Fungal Infection: Elvish Mystic, Pelt Collector, Haunted Witness, Swiftblade Vindicator, Dauntless Bodyguard, Skymarcher Aspirant, Adanto Vanguard,
Any X/2 can potentially be blown out with it too.
The Dream Eater/Doom Whisperer split seems to be a hedge against it being so early in the format (which is better? My gut is Doom Whisperer). Nightveil Sprite seems...pretty medium early or late, maybe max out on the Hostage Takers instead? Vraska's Contempt is too powerful to not have as a four of. (Cast down?)
Also, as having Read the Bones as one of my favorite cards, you need to have Rain of Notions somewhere in your 75.
Also the guildgates come in tap so that would kinda slow the deck down. You could cut 1-2 field of ruin and then add 2 swamps.
-Stay Frosty
This is exactly what I'm thinking, but what to replace the predators? Another operative and hostage taker? Chupacabra?
4x Kitesail Freebooter
1x Plague Mare
3x Thief of Sanity
3x Doom Whisperer
2x Dream Eater
REMOVAL (13):
3x Dead Weight
2x Cast Down
2x Moment of Craving
2x Ritual of Soot
4x Vraska's Contempt
4x Notion Rain
2x Discovery//Dispersal
DISCARD (4):
4x Thought Erasure
LANDS (24):
4x Drowned Catacomb
2x Field of Ruin
4x Watery Grave
4x Island
10x Swamp
2x Disdainful Stroke
3x Negate
3x Duress
2x Arguel's Blood Fast
1x Cast Down
2x Plaguecrafter
1x Golden Demise
1x Plague Mare
I have been extensively testing Jeskai Control (the deck I was most likely on), and per usual wanted to throw something else together, to test against. We built multiple variations of all of the decks that we thought would matter in the first couple weeks of a post rotation meta. I played this a few times and realized it had some legs. Some of the numbers might not be proper, but this seems like a hell of a start for sure. I'll keep you guys updated with any results for sure!
We got no future, we got no hope
Our life is pain and it's hard to cope.
I think this is the right direction. Thief Of Sanity looks great. I still prefer Chemister's Insight to Notion Rain. Instant and Jump Start are too good to pass up IMO. Also, there's no life loss.
We got no future, we got no hope
Our life is pain and it's hard to cope.
We got no future, we got no hope
Our life is pain and it's hard to cope.
That's why I don't like it. Red/Boros, and maybe G/GB will have your life total stressed, and you have little to no life gain. Doom Whisperer wants your life, too. Also, taking a turn off to draw two is dangerous.
1. Blood Operative is probably not worth it mainboard, maybe at all? Might need it's own dedicated deck (feel like he works better in U/W where you can get some lifegain). I think i've got 1 of in my deck and mostly because sometimes that graveyard hate is nice, or I get into late game dig through my deck mode and want a reusable threat. If you do run them I think you have to be careful about relying on notion rain/Doom whisperer for your surveil triggers.
2. I run 4 Discovery // Dispersal and have almost 0 regrets about it. The dig is great and the second half has wound up relevant in those end game grindy top deck scenarios. Hell i've used it to bounce a seal away/similar spell and get in for lethal they weren't expecting. I might go to 3 just because digging into them repeatedly can suck, but no less.
3. Since someone else mentioned it, I think dream eater/doom whisperer serve different purposes and make sense having both, although post board you might drop all of one. The flash + bounce + surveil on dream is a super nasty combo that often winds up setting you up for the win. Either they blow something countering the dream eater so you can sneak something else through, or they don't and plan on removing it, but you get to hit their tempo and dig for a followup threat (which on 4 surveil you're likely to hit). Hell i'd say it's almost better than doom in this sort of deck where the only payoff from the surveil other than the filter is recurring blood operatives, which is expensive as hell on life total.
Dire Fleet Poisoner (flash + deathtouch), Hostage Taker (2-for-1) and Demonlord Belzenlok (big and draws card/s) which should pretty good in a midrange shell imho.
Here is my version of the deck (I saw this list and tweaked it to my liking):
4x Dire Fleet Poisoner
4x Thief of Sanity
3x Hostage Taker
3x Doom Whisperer
1x Demonlord Belzenlok
Sorcery (11)
4x Thought Erasure
3x Discovery // Dispersal
4x Notion Rain
2x Cast Down
2x Murder
4x Vraska's Contempt
Enchantment (1)
1x Arguel's Blood Fast
Land (25)
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
3x Field of Ruin
8x Swamp
6x Island
3x Blood Operative
2x Moment of Craving
3x Negate
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Essence Scatter
2x Ritual of Soot
1x Arguel's Blood Fast
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
I'm not sure if maindeck Arguel's Blood Fast is a better option than Search for Azcanta (despite the 15x creatures in the deck).
Chart a Course also seems a good option but Discovery // Dispersal might just be the better card here.
Another creature I might want here is Kitesail Freebooter or Ravenous Chupacabra (depending on the meta) and maybe one of them should take Blood Operative's slot but it'll require some testing.
Maybe Nightveil Predator is worth it for midrange mirrors but i'm not sure about it.
Some more ideas for creatures in this deck are:
Murmuring Mystic as a slow tokens generator and Isareth the Awakener for reanimating creatures (a mini Scarab God).
Meh, I love the card in limited. But no one has been able to break it wide open in constructed.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
6 Island
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Dimir Guildgate
4 Siren Stormtamer
4 Nightveil Sprite
4 Thief of Sanity
4 Nightveil Predator
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dive Down
2 Dead Weight
2 Cast Down
2 Vraska's Contempt
4 Thought Erasure
2 Disinformation Campaign
2 Discovery/Dispersal
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Negate
1 Sinister Sabotage
2 Cast Down
2 Vraska's Contempt
2 Golden Demise
2 Disinformation Campaign
2 Chemister's Insight
A lot of exploratory 2-ofs for the moment, but the deck already does some good things. Curious Obsession on Nightveil Predator is nice. If you can protect a Curious Obsession on a Thief of Sanity for a few turns things get out of hand quickly. Nightveil Sprite and Disinformation Campaign go together nicely. Siren Stormtamer is a counterspell on a stick that can protect your dudes or protect you from discards or Risk Factors.
I think a deck like this one could work.
The way the format is set up right now it is surprisingly unrewarding to play giant creatures:
In my experience Disinformation Campaign works best in the late game as a pseudo-wincon. If you play it early most decks are able to either overcome the value or just kill you before the value becomes important.
Both provide card advantage and can generate tokens.
Hostage Taker: Great against green decks. There are very few ways they can deal with it. Medium-minus against red decks. Easily killed. If they get their card back, it usually has some sort of value. Very mediocre against control decks.
Chupacabra: Great against green decks, full stop. Better against red decks, gets value ETB and usually trades. Mediocre against control decks.
Nightveil Predator: Great against green decks. Great blocker. Usually deals 9-12 damage if I stick it on time. Usually too slow against red decks. GREAT against control decks (if it sticks).
Vraska's Contempt: Great against everything. Sometimes it can be switched out for cheaper removal against Mono-red.
Ritual Of Soot: I'm higher and higher on this card the more I play it. Plays so nicely with Hostage Taker,Chupacabra, and Nightveil predator. Wrecks green decks. Wrecks little white decks. Awful against control and seems really awkward versus Boros angles.
Chemister's insight: Love it. Still love Notion Rain, but Chemister's insight is a great way of getting rid of dead cards in the right matchups. Really nice to play early. Really nice to jump start late.
Where is the metagame going? We have threats/answers to face any deck, but not enough room to fit all of them.
I did forget Price of Fame! If Boros Angels sticks around then I feel like it will become much more of a player.