I beat grixis energy, gb snek, esper approach, and grixis improvise. I lost to esper gpg (which feels like a really hard matchup).
I'll be the first to admit that the manabase isn't correct, it was hard to get double red sometimes, I'm cuting an evolving wilds and forest for the 4th crag, another slough, another thicket making it 24 lands instead of 23, I think this will fix it.
The idea was have a lot of explore to fix draws and just jam Phoenix and glorybringers till they die. And that worked really well. Arguels bloodfast is insane as well, if aggro wasn't a thing I'd maindeck 3 and I'm thinking about playing the third in the board. Even the flipped side is great because you can sac your Phoenix in response to exile removal, card is nuts. I had games where I was 15+ cards deeper than my opponent.
Going forward I'm moving the wildgrowth walkers to the board (they were unimpactful but i still think they will be good against aggro). I want 4 deathgorge in the main. Explore fuels deathgorge and deathgorge fuels bloodfast. There is a lot of power here this might not be the optimal build, but there is a tier one deck here somewhere. My matchups that I won felt really easy.
Will post my updated list soon
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I feel like Ravenous Chupacabrais necessary, especially over Tetzimoc. When I was playtesting the Chucpacabra into a Glorybringer practically ends matches. I also think you are right about including the Explore mechanic. I like both Jadelight Ranger and Merfolk Branchwalker over Pia Nalaarand Kitesail Freebooter. Kitesail seems like the perfect SB card for control matchups as well, but not for MB. Lots to like here!
I play tested Soul-Scar Mage and thought it ran well. Helps to hold down the match early, and to remove larger creatures. It also focuses removal, which can save a Deathgorge later.
Congratulations! Great result and interesting choises! Especially Arguels Bloodfast.
The Jund manabase should be red focussed to hit double red at turns 2 (sometimes) and onward. Needing both double black AND double green stretches it a bit. But I do Like the inclusion of the explorers. It's like a combi of the snek deck and jund midrange.
What about Channeler Initiate as a two drop that can help fix mana, ramp into the four drops and be a big butt if it becomes a 3/4?
I like Seekers' Squire over merfolk branchwalker as the extra toughness helps in blocking. Deathgore can eat up turns against creature decks, and blockers helps fuel it. When Arguel's Blood Fast flips you can start sacking a rekindling Phoenix to gain life and just bring it back your turn after you attacked or blocked with it. It's a game-saver, especially if you have multiple Phoenix's. Arguel's really can help in the long game, which this deck has an advantage in.
Another potential way to fix the mana can be running Prophetic Prism which at worst is a cantrip but I'm not sure I'd replace my Treasure Maps with it.
I beat grixis energy, gb snek, esper approach, and grixis improvise. I lost to esper gpg (which feels like a really hard matchup).
I'll be the first to admit that the manabase isn't correct, it was hard to get double red sometimes, I'm cuting an evolving wilds and forest for the 4th crag, another slough, another thicket making it 24 lands instead of 23, I think this will fix it.
The idea was have a lot of explore to fix draws and just jam Phoenix and glorybringers till they die. And that worked really well. Arguels bloodfast is insane as well, if aggro wasn't a thing I'd maindeck 3 and I'm thinking about playing the third in the board. Even the flipped side is great because you can sac your Phoenix in response to exile removal, card is nuts. I had games where I was 15+ cards deeper than my opponent.
Going forward I'm moving the wildgrowth walkers to the board (they were unimpactful but i still think they will be good against aggro). I want 4 deathgorge in the main. Explore fuels deathgorge and deathgorge fuels bloodfast. There is a lot of power here this might not be the optimal build, but there is a tier one deck here somewhere. My matchups that I won felt really easy.
Will post my updated list soon
That is a really cool build, congrats on the result. Blood Fast seems really amazing
Drover of the Mighty is a great option. I think having another source to generate any mana color is needed. Nothing worse than having a two mana green in hand without the ability to cast it.
I don't think the deck can handle both Jadelight Ranger and Ripjaw Raptor. Jadelight is great because you have a chance of pulling a land on a turn you haven't played one and get it on the field to cast a removal spell. But the body on Ripjaw is obviously so much more dangerous and plays a better long game.
What about Channeler Initiate as a two drop that can help fix mana, ramp into the four drops and be a big butt if it becomes a 3/4?
I like Seekers' Squire over merfolk branchwalker as the extra toughness helps in blocking. Deathgore can eat up turns against creature decks, and blockers helps fuel it. When Arguel's Blood Fast flips you can start sacking a rekindling Phoenix to gain life and just bring it back your turn after you attacked or blocked with it. It's a game-saver, especially if you have multiple Phoenix's. Arguel's really can help in the long game, which this deck has an advantage in.
100% agree with all of this I'm working on a version that cuts the branchwalkers for initiates. I'm also testing out rhonas, the problem with deathgorge is that he just trades with a random creature on the opponents board so you can't press an advantage with him, but rhonas could fix that. Making your Phoenix a massive trampler that is hard to kill is just upside haha.
I hadn't thought about serpopard but I'm going to look into fitting it in.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I've been looking at some MTGO lists that run Heart of Kiran and Scrapheap Scrounger along with Rhonas the Indomitable. Scrounger can crew Heart which then lets Rhonas attack and it can also be used on defense to allow Rhonas and Heart to block. Scrapheap is also another creature that's tough to deal with along the lines of Phoenix (not as good obviously), but can utilize creatures in our graveyard that we really have no way to utilize and as a bonus it can remove targets for Scarab God in those match ups. I think this makes the deck much more creature-centered at the cost of some utility spells. Thoughts?
I have been thinking about Rhonas and the scrounger. The former not really great in the deck, The latter fits exactly in what we try to do.
I'm just not into Heart of Kiran for it does not meet the requirements of a value card. It IS a great magic card though. But I don't think there are any slots/spells i'd want to give up.
I'm afraid my phoenixes wont be here in time for the next FNM had a delay in my presale shipent for some reason. I really want to take the list to an event soon!
Anybody been working on a way to consistently incorporate both double black and green alongside red? I really don't want more taplands but I'd love to play more green.
I have been thinking about Rhonas and the scrounger. The former not really great in the deck, The latter fits exactly in what we try to do.
I'm just not into Heart of Kiran for it does not meet the requirements of a value card. It IS a great magic card though. But I don't think there are any slots/spells i'd want to give up.
I'm afraid my phoenixes wont be here in time for the next FNM had a delay in my presale shipent for some reason. I really want to take the list to an event soon!
Anybody been working on a way to consistently incorporate both double black and green alongside red? I really don't want more taplands but I'd love to play more green.
Why don't you like rhonas in here? I haven't gotten to test him yet, but it seems like he fills a small hole we have. With giving our creatures trample, letting our smaller guys attack in the event of a board stall, an letting our fliers threaten to trade with a 6/6 angel of invention. As well as being another mana sink.
It's totally possible that he's bad, but I just want to know why you don't like him.
I don't like scrounger, I think we need creatures that can block, because we can't race aggro decks. Scrounger can block in those decks because of heart of kiran. We are sacrificing aggressive starts for mid/late game power. He could be a descent sideboard option but I'm not high on him in here.
The next manabase I'm trying is:
4 blooming marsh
4 dragonskull summit
4 root-bound crag
4 sheltered thicket
4 canyon slough
2 forest
2 swamp
Along with 4 initiates. This might be too many tapped lands though. You could maybe play 1 evolving wilds and a mountain ( or maybe 2 mountains) over a thicket and a slough.
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I agree that Scrounger is a value card that we really want in the deck. I think others are using Heart as another flyer to get in damage and block and potentially help with flying vampires.
It's the best consistency that I've worked out so far, but it's not as solid as I'd prefer. If only Jadelight Ranger or Vraska's Contempt weren't so good...
I have been thinking about Rhonas and the scrounger. The former not really great in the deck, The latter fits exactly in what we try to do.
I'm just not into Heart of Kiran for it does not meet the requirements of a value card. It IS a great magic card though. But I don't think there are any slots/spells i'd want to give up.
I'm afraid my phoenixes wont be here in time for the next FNM had a delay in my presale shipent for some reason. I really want to take the list to an event soon!
Anybody been working on a way to consistently incorporate both double black and green alongside red? I really don't want more taplands but I'd love to play more green.
Why don't you like rhonas in here? I haven't gotten to test him yet, but it seems like he fills a small hole we have. With giving our creatures trample, letting our smaller guys attack in the event of a board stall, an letting our fliers threaten to trade with a 6/6 angel of invention. As well as being another mana sink.
It's totally possible that he's bad, but I just want to know why you don't like him.
I don't like scrounger, I think we need creatures that can block, because we can't race aggro decks. Scrounger can block in those decks because of heart of kiran. We are sacrificing aggressive starts for mid/late game power. He could be a descent sideboard option but I'm not high on him in here.
The next manabase I'm trying is:
4 blooming marsh
4 dragonskull summit
4 root-bound crag
4 sheltered thicket
4 canyon slough
2 forest
2 swamp
Along with 4 initiates. This might be too many tapped lands though. You could maybe play 1 evolving wilds and a mountain ( or maybe 2 mountains) over a thicket and a slough.
It's not that I don't like Rhonas, I think it's great and could be a nice addition which I haven't tested yet. But, just like Heart of Kiran it's just not as good as others on an empty board. Both need other creatures to shine and I don't think that is what a traditional jund list is about.
If there is a creature on the board we can't deal with in combat, we got other ways to get rid of it.
Just my 2cts. Finding the right balance is key.
About the mana, Double red is easy, and we absolutely need double black on T4. We want to cast Vraska's Contempt as soon as we need it. Double green on T3 and T4 makes that harder, so we have another fine balance to hit there. Also, ideally, we drop our first cycle land tapped and play duallands untapped after that.
To me they are undoubtly value cards and I'm trying to find the right split of cards. I've had situations in my online playtesting where I wished chupacabra was a Vraska's, never the other way around. Though I like the extra blocker VS most aggro lists. Gonti almost always gives us value in card advantage and is an even better blocker when trading up.
For now I have 5 slots (3md, 2sb) and want to run 2 Vraska's/1 Chupacabra main, 2 Gonti in the side.
Tomorrow i'll play my first games in paper. And by next week I'll might take Jund over my revisited straight up GB Snek deck to FNM.
I beat UG merfolk, sultai midrange (snek, scarab god, hadana's climb), mono black gateway (basically a bye), and mono red.
I lost to a UB midrange deck because I flooded hard game 1 and game 3 I couldn't answer their second scarab god.
25 lands seems like a lot, but it worked. I even had games where I didn't hit my 4th land drop on time. Overall it felt really smooth, and I didn't feel flooded outside of game 1 against the UB deck. With jadelight and squire, I think we can afford to play 25, and we have good mana sinks in bloodfast and ribbons.
I tried treasure map over a bloodfast, and it really sucks compared to bloodfast. Early on we have cheap creatures to either set us up or ramp us, along with cheap removal, so we don't need an early way to scry (or have a window to cast it early) and you would much rather be playing a bloodfast turn 4+.
Rhonas was also very lackluster. I played him 3 times I think, attacked with him once, and never had the chance to use his ability.
Magma spray was a house, its miles ahead of fatal push right now since the graveyard is so important. There are lots of eternalize creatures and good scarab god targets running around as well as a descent amount of cheap aggro creatures. It almost always had a target even against the midrange decks. It should be a 3 of main and maybe even have the 4th in the board.
Seeker's squire is definitely the right choice over branchwalker the 3 toughness holds back much of the field.
The ramp from channeler initiate was really important and the mana fixing was instrumental in at least one win. It coming down as an 0/1 kinda blows though, you can put the counters on a Phoenix late-game though. It still feels like there should be a better option, but the ramp and fixing was really powerful.
I never got to use the brontodon's ability, but having a 3/4 against mono red was pretty awesome, as was having the ability to kill an enchantment even though it didn't come up (hadana's climb is really good with snek).
I brought in angrath in every matchup except mono red. I'm really liking him, it might be worth it to try to fit it in the main, but it would make our curve pretty top heavy, it's probably better in the board.
So the changes for next time:
In the main
-1 abrade, -1 rhonas, -1 treasure map
+1 magma spray, +1 deathgorge scavenger, +1 arguels bloodfast
In the board
-1 magma spray, -1 deathgorge scavenger, -1 arguels bloodfast
+1 abrade, +1 thrashing brontodon, +1 angrath the flame chained
As for ravenous chupacabra, I think it's probably ok to play one over a contempt. But exile is super important right now, so I wouldn't do it, unless your plan is to board into lilianas for midrange and control matchups, even then though, you need answers to the scarab god.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
As far as the Initiates go. Did opponents try to remove them as soon as they hit the field, or were you able to mana fix with them before they were taken out or lost their counters?
How was Arguel's Blood Fast this time around? The first time I added it, it single handily won me a game. Last couple matches though I couldn't get it going (lack of mana or having to deal with threats). I still wonder if Ruin Raider makes more sense, but the flip on Arguel's + Phoenix combo is pretty amazing.
Ravenous Chupacabra has still been a pro for me. You may be right about Fatal Push though because I often will hang onto it for late game, but then have issues triggering the revolt mechanic. The Chupacabra changes that and allows you to hit large threats, meaning you could add in 3-4 Magma Sprays.
I feel this deck is really close, but still has issues when a Torrential Gearhulk and/or a Scarab God hits the field. It also can struggle with control because of how costly the creatures are. I feel like it just needs a little more fuel.
Jund lists are popping up everywhere. I have a feeling it's only a matter of time for competitive results start showing.
Currently i'm on an awesome streak, with only two losses in easilly 20+ games over the last week. Both where mirror matches, which is telling a lot. The version I was up against included Scrapheap Scrounger and Rhonas the Indomitable. This version is definately more aggressive! Scrapheap Scrounger is, like I suspected a perfect fit for the deck, as it is recursive value. Rhonas, i'm still not conviced on.
Amongst the wins where a plethora of pirates decks, Grixis, Rakdos, UB, several merfolk lists, Vampires, some of the SBMTG brews where amongst them, including the curiosity deck. Also played against Rx aggro, GPG, Esper God and Mardu vehicles. Those are though matches but my list is somewhat tuned to beat those consistently.
I have a great feeling about the deck and its potential and start to see great lines. Some games I can truely control the opponents board and just calmly swing for the finish.
I discovered the power of Vraska, Relic Seeker and fits perfectly in the deck, currently trying out one main.
I want to make room for an extra copy of Cut // Ribbons but don't know what to cut.
I'm really liking Ruin Raider and thinking about upping to three copies, shaving a copy of [card]Pia Nalaar
[/card].
Tommorow I'll attend a tournament to see how I fare.
I'm thinking about including Scraphead Scrounger, however I feel like we have tons of 4 drops, which means activating its ability may be taxing. It also makes us exile a creature, which I would prefer to do with Deathgorge Scavenger. Life gain is so important in the grindy matches.
I also really like the explore build, as it lets you filter through cards. I'm running this currently.
I'm thinking about including Scraphead Scrounger, however I feel like we have tons of 4 drops, which means activating its ability may be taxing. It also makes us exile a creature, which I would prefer to do with Deathgorge Scavenger. Life gain is so important in the grindy matches.
I also really like the explore build, as it lets you filter through cards. I'm running this currently.
People definitely killed the initiates early if they could, but I also got a few turn 3 Phoenix, and you can do things like put all of the counters on a Phoenix or 1/2 squire/ 2/1 ranger late game. So your not just drawing a dead card. X/4 is also a big game right now.
I didn't draw bloodfast much this time around, I drew treasure map a bunch though lol.
I think ruin raider will kill you more often than not. You can control when it triggers, but I'm sure you will get hit for 3-5 consistently. I'd rather have bloodfast because it's consistently 2 and you can have a turn where you use it 3-4 times instead of just doing it once, and on your end step. Raider also wants you to attack and we can't race aggro decks, we're just too slow. So I think he's sideboard material at best. Same with scrounger. I'm more interested in dread wanderer as a recursive threat because he can block (and it's a one drop).
Why are your cuts in the board? Surely they are better than the moment of cravings? I've won plenty of games because of ribbons.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
People definitely killed the initiates early if they could, but I also got a few turn 3 Phoenix, and you can do things like put all of the counters on a Phoenix or 1/2 squire/ 2/1 ranger late game. So your not just drawing a dead card. X/4 is also a big game right now.
This is why I'm not sure Drover is the answer either. I think the Initiate will at the very least throw someone off, and if you can get off one counter you are protected from Magma/Shock. A turn 3 Phoenix or Raptor should be what we are going for, and then the mana fixing element.
I didn't draw bloodfast much this time around, I drew treasure map a bunch though lol.
I think ruin raider will kill you more often than not. You can control when it triggers, but I'm sure you will get hit for 3-5 consistently. I'd rather have bloodfast because it's consistently 2 and you can have a turn where you use it 3-4 times instead of just doing it once, and on your end step. Raider also wants you to attack and we can't race aggro decks, we're just too slow. So I think he's sideboard material at best. Same with scrounger. I'm more interested in dread wanderer as a recursive threat because he can block (and it's a one drop).
Agreed, that's why Bloodfast is perfect for this deck.
Why are your cuts in the board? Surely they are better than the moment of cravings? I've won plenty of games because of ribbons.
Just got too cute with it. Was hoping to exile bigger threats with moment and magma's. Liked the lifegain, but Cut Ribbons is going in the MB.
I don't think turn two ramp is what we want or need. As said above, we can't race aggro. This is very true so imho we have to control the early turns. The best line thusfar for me has been: T1 mountain or canyon slough, T2 Untapped dual land, destroy their two drop on their turn with any of our removal spells, T3 Scavenger, eat the creature, +2 life, T4 attack for 4 by eating the removal spell. Then Drop the bomb.
Follow up with more removal or Glorybringer. Usually, that's game.
If that's no option, you just got to stall and draw into your finishers. Freebooter and Pia make attacking early possible to trigger raid (always drop Ruin Raider 2nd mainphase). Raider has given me more value than trouble, if any. I flipped a Glorybringer once. Ouch, but I was still at 19 life so no biggy. T.b.h. I have finished a lot of games on 20 or more life, Just keep the board clean.
I don't think turn two ramp is what we want or need. As said above, we can't race aggro. This is very true so imho we have to control the early turns. The best line thusfar for me has been: T1 mountain or canyon slough, T2 Untapped dual land, destroy their two drop on their turn with any of our removal spells, T3 Scavenger, eat the creature, +2 life, T4 attack for 4 by eating the removal spell. Then Drop the bomb.
Follow up with more removal or Glorybringer. Usually, that's game.
If that's no option, you just got to stall and draw into your finishers. Freebooter and Pia make attacking early possible to trigger raid (always drop Ruin Raider 2nd mainphase). Raider has given me more value than trouble, if any. I flipped a Glorybringer once. Ouch, but I was still at 19 life so no biggy. T.b.h. I have finished a lot of games on 20 or more life, Just keep the board clean.
Imho this deck needs role players.
Also, a primer
@SmauG what do you think of the explore creatures? Maybe instead of the ramping creatures we roll both Seeker's Squire and Ixalli's Diviner. Both can slow the game down and help filter the deck.
I think highly of the explore mechanic and love the explore creatures in my GB snek build. Ixalli's Diviner can be a great addition as a 4 thoughness creature is hard to go over and the filtering surely can come in handy when digging for an answer or lands.
Also, but i'm not sure on this one, Does explore allow to lower our landcount?????
What does everybody think of Walking Ballista? In my playtesting I feel like i'm often times keeping it in hand in favour of other stuff untill I can get it down for 4 mana minimum and even then, it's only blocking once and pinging one dude. I feel like this might not be the deck for it. Though, when it's good, it's great.
I run a 3-3 split of Merfolk Branchwalker and Seekers' Squire along with Jadelight Ranger as my explore creatures. Splitting the two drops allows my mana to be a bit more flexible and to get bodies down more consistently on turn two since using them to stop or slow aggro is so important. It also allows a turn three Ranger or Deathgorge to be more useful.
I'm running 24 lands without any ramp and I feel like that's currently the right number. I've considered 23 with all of the explore I have, but I'm not sure yet.
I haven't been impressed with the explorecreatures as they fit better in "BG Constrictor" where they can grow into legitimate threats. Jadelight Ranger is a reasonable standalone creature though I'm not sure I'd take it over either Deathgorge or Brontodon in the 3-mana slot.
4 blooming marsh
4 dragonskull summit
3 root-bound crag
1 sheltered thicket
1 canyon slough
3 evolving wilds
3 forest
3 swamp
1 mountain
4 merfolk branchwalker
3 seeker's squire
4 wildgrowth walker
4 jadelight ranger
4 rekindling Phoenix
4 glorybringer
1 tetzimoc, primal death
Spells 13
3 fatal push
2 abrade
2 arguel's bloodfast
3 vraska's contempt
3 cut to ribbons
2 deadeye tracker
3 duress
2 abrade
2 deathgorge scavenger
2 sweltering suns
2 angrath, the flame-chained
I beat grixis energy, gb snek, esper approach, and grixis improvise. I lost to esper gpg (which feels like a really hard matchup).
I'll be the first to admit that the manabase isn't correct, it was hard to get double red sometimes, I'm cuting an evolving wilds and forest for the 4th crag, another slough, another thicket making it 24 lands instead of 23, I think this will fix it.
The idea was have a lot of explore to fix draws and just jam Phoenix and glorybringers till they die. And that worked really well. Arguels bloodfast is insane as well, if aggro wasn't a thing I'd maindeck 3 and I'm thinking about playing the third in the board. Even the flipped side is great because you can sac your Phoenix in response to exile removal, card is nuts. I had games where I was 15+ cards deeper than my opponent.
Going forward I'm moving the wildgrowth walkers to the board (they were unimpactful but i still think they will be good against aggro). I want 4 deathgorge in the main. Explore fuels deathgorge and deathgorge fuels bloodfast. There is a lot of power here this might not be the optimal build, but there is a tier one deck here somewhere. My matchups that I won felt really easy.
Will post my updated list soon
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I feel like Ravenous Chupacabrais necessary, especially over Tetzimoc. When I was playtesting the Chucpacabra into a Glorybringer practically ends matches. I also think you are right about including the Explore mechanic. I like both Jadelight Ranger and Merfolk Branchwalker over Pia Nalaarand Kitesail Freebooter. Kitesail seems like the perfect SB card for control matchups as well, but not for MB. Lots to like here!
I play tested Soul-Scar Mage and thought it ran well. Helps to hold down the match early, and to remove larger creatures. It also focuses removal, which can save a Deathgorge later.
The Jund manabase should be red focussed to hit double red at turns 2 (sometimes) and onward. Needing both double black AND double green stretches it a bit. But I do Like the inclusion of the explorers. It's like a combi of the snek deck and jund midrange.
Love the spell package.
Great input! Keep up the brewing!
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I like Seekers' Squire over merfolk branchwalker as the extra toughness helps in blocking. Deathgore can eat up turns against creature decks, and blockers helps fuel it. When Arguel's Blood Fast flips you can start sacking a rekindling Phoenix to gain life and just bring it back your turn after you attacked or blocked with it. It's a game-saver, especially if you have multiple Phoenix's. Arguel's really can help in the long game, which this deck has an advantage in.
SBing 2Prowling Serpopard is great for control decks.
Another potential way to fix the mana can be running Prophetic Prism which at worst is a cantrip but I'm not sure I'd replace my Treasure Maps with it.
That is a really cool build, congrats on the result. Blood Fast seems really amazing
"If it was easy, everyone would do it."
I don't think the deck can handle both Jadelight Ranger and Ripjaw Raptor. Jadelight is great because you have a chance of pulling a land on a turn you haven't played one and get it on the field to cast a removal spell. But the body on Ripjaw is obviously so much more dangerous and plays a better long game.
100% agree with all of this I'm working on a version that cuts the branchwalkers for initiates. I'm also testing out rhonas, the problem with deathgorge is that he just trades with a random creature on the opponents board so you can't press an advantage with him, but rhonas could fix that. Making your Phoenix a massive trampler that is hard to kill is just upside haha.
I hadn't thought about serpopard but I'm going to look into fitting it in.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
I'm just not into Heart of Kiran for it does not meet the requirements of a value card. It IS a great magic card though. But I don't think there are any slots/spells i'd want to give up.
I'm afraid my phoenixes wont be here in time for the next FNM had a delay in my presale shipent for some reason. I really want to take the list to an event soon!
Anybody been working on a way to consistently incorporate both double black and green alongside red? I really don't want more taplands but I'd love to play more green.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Why don't you like rhonas in here? I haven't gotten to test him yet, but it seems like he fills a small hole we have. With giving our creatures trample, letting our smaller guys attack in the event of a board stall, an letting our fliers threaten to trade with a 6/6 angel of invention. As well as being another mana sink.
It's totally possible that he's bad, but I just want to know why you don't like him.
I don't like scrounger, I think we need creatures that can block, because we can't race aggro decks. Scrounger can block in those decks because of heart of kiran. We are sacrificing aggressive starts for mid/late game power. He could be a descent sideboard option but I'm not high on him in here.
The next manabase I'm trying is:
4 blooming marsh
4 dragonskull summit
4 root-bound crag
4 sheltered thicket
4 canyon slough
2 forest
2 swamp
Along with 4 initiates. This might be too many tapped lands though. You could maybe play 1 evolving wilds and a mountain ( or maybe 2 mountains) over a thicket and a slough.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
The mana base is definitely an issue. Right now, this is where I'm at:
4 Blooming March
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Canyon Slough
2 Sheltered Thicket
3 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
It's the best consistency that I've worked out so far, but it's not as solid as I'd prefer. If only Jadelight Ranger or Vraska's Contempt weren't so good...
It's not that I don't like Rhonas, I think it's great and could be a nice addition which I haven't tested yet. But, just like Heart of Kiran it's just not as good as others on an empty board. Both need other creatures to shine and I don't think that is what a traditional jund list is about.
If there is a creature on the board we can't deal with in combat, we got other ways to get rid of it.
Just my 2cts. Finding the right balance is key.
About the mana, Double red is easy, and we absolutely need double black on T4. We want to cast Vraska's Contempt as soon as we need it. Double green on T3 and T4 makes that harder, so we have another fine balance to hit there. Also, ideally, we drop our first cycle land tapped and play duallands untapped after that.
As far as double black and value goes. I'm curious how you all feel about the following three cards respective to one another:
Vraska's Contempt
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Revenous Chupacabra
To me they are undoubtly value cards and I'm trying to find the right split of cards. I've had situations in my online playtesting where I wished chupacabra was a Vraska's, never the other way around. Though I like the extra blocker VS most aggro lists. Gonti almost always gives us value in card advantage and is an even better blocker when trading up.
For now I have 5 slots (3md, 2sb) and want to run 2 Vraska's/1 Chupacabra main, 2 Gonti in the side.
Tomorrow i'll play my first games in paper. And by next week I'll might take Jund over my revisited straight up GB Snek deck to FNM.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
4 blooming marsh
4 dragonskull summit
4 rootbound crag
4 sheltered thicket
3 canyon slough
2 mountain
2 swamp
2 forest
Creatures 23
4 channeler initiate
4 seeker's squire
4 jadelight ranger
2 deathgorge scavenger
1 rhonas the indomitable
4 rekindling Phoenix
4 glorybringer
2 magma spray
3 abrade
1 arguels bloodfast
1 treasure map
3 vraska's contempt
2 cut to ribbons
3 duress
1 magma spray
1 arguels bloodfast
1 abrade
2 lost legacy
3 sweltering suns
1 deathgorge scavenger
1 prowling serpopard
1 thrashing brontodon
1 angrath, the flame chained
I beat UG merfolk, sultai midrange (snek, scarab god, hadana's climb), mono black gateway (basically a bye), and mono red.
I lost to a UB midrange deck because I flooded hard game 1 and game 3 I couldn't answer their second scarab god.
25 lands seems like a lot, but it worked. I even had games where I didn't hit my 4th land drop on time. Overall it felt really smooth, and I didn't feel flooded outside of game 1 against the UB deck. With jadelight and squire, I think we can afford to play 25, and we have good mana sinks in bloodfast and ribbons.
I tried treasure map over a bloodfast, and it really sucks compared to bloodfast. Early on we have cheap creatures to either set us up or ramp us, along with cheap removal, so we don't need an early way to scry (or have a window to cast it early) and you would much rather be playing a bloodfast turn 4+.
Rhonas was also very lackluster. I played him 3 times I think, attacked with him once, and never had the chance to use his ability.
Magma spray was a house, its miles ahead of fatal push right now since the graveyard is so important. There are lots of eternalize creatures and good scarab god targets running around as well as a descent amount of cheap aggro creatures. It almost always had a target even against the midrange decks. It should be a 3 of main and maybe even have the 4th in the board.
Seeker's squire is definitely the right choice over branchwalker the 3 toughness holds back much of the field.
The ramp from channeler initiate was really important and the mana fixing was instrumental in at least one win. It coming down as an 0/1 kinda blows though, you can put the counters on a Phoenix late-game though. It still feels like there should be a better option, but the ramp and fixing was really powerful.
I never got to use the brontodon's ability, but having a 3/4 against mono red was pretty awesome, as was having the ability to kill an enchantment even though it didn't come up (hadana's climb is really good with snek).
I brought in angrath in every matchup except mono red. I'm really liking him, it might be worth it to try to fit it in the main, but it would make our curve pretty top heavy, it's probably better in the board.
So the changes for next time:
In the main
-1 abrade, -1 rhonas, -1 treasure map
+1 magma spray, +1 deathgorge scavenger, +1 arguels bloodfast
In the board
-1 magma spray, -1 deathgorge scavenger, -1 arguels bloodfast
+1 abrade, +1 thrashing brontodon, +1 angrath the flame chained
As for ravenous chupacabra, I think it's probably ok to play one over a contempt. But exile is super important right now, so I wouldn't do it, unless your plan is to board into lilianas for midrange and control matchups, even then though, you need answers to the scarab god.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
As far as the Initiates go. Did opponents try to remove them as soon as they hit the field, or were you able to mana fix with them before they were taken out or lost their counters?
How was Arguel's Blood Fast this time around? The first time I added it, it single handily won me a game. Last couple matches though I couldn't get it going (lack of mana or having to deal with threats). I still wonder if Ruin Raider makes more sense, but the flip on Arguel's + Phoenix combo is pretty amazing.
Ravenous Chupacabra has still been a pro for me. You may be right about Fatal Push though because I often will hang onto it for late game, but then have issues triggering the revolt mechanic. The Chupacabra changes that and allows you to hit large threats, meaning you could add in 3-4 Magma Sprays.
I feel this deck is really close, but still has issues when a Torrential Gearhulk and/or a Scarab God hits the field. It also can struggle with control because of how costly the creatures are. I feel like it just needs a little more fuel.
Currently i'm on an awesome streak, with only two losses in easilly 20+ games over the last week. Both where mirror matches, which is telling a lot. The version I was up against included Scrapheap Scrounger and Rhonas the Indomitable. This version is definately more aggressive! Scrapheap Scrounger is, like I suspected a perfect fit for the deck, as it is recursive value. Rhonas, i'm still not conviced on.
Amongst the wins where a plethora of pirates decks, Grixis, Rakdos, UB, several merfolk lists, Vampires, some of the SBMTG brews where amongst them, including the curiosity deck. Also played against Rx aggro, GPG, Esper God and Mardu vehicles. Those are though matches but my list is somewhat tuned to beat those consistently.
This is how the deck looks like as of this moment
3 Mountain
3 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Canyon Slough
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Rootbound Crag
Creatures
3 Walking Ballista
3 Kitesail Freebooter
1 Dire Fleet Poisoner
3 Pia Nalaar
4 Deathgorge Scavenger
2 Ruin Raider
4 Rekindling Phoenix
2 Glorybringer
4 Fatal Push
2 Shock
1 Moment of Craving
2 Abrade
1 Cut // Ribbons
1 Sweltering Suns
2 Vrasta's Contempt
1 Vraska Relic Seeker
2 Chandra's Defeat
2 Sentinel Totem
3 Duress
1 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Abrade
2 Naturalize
2 Sweltering Suns
1 Vraska's Contempt
I have a great feeling about the deck and its potential and start to see great lines. Some games I can truely control the opponents board and just calmly swing for the finish.
I discovered the power of Vraska, Relic Seeker and fits perfectly in the deck, currently trying out one main.
I want to make room for an extra copy of Cut // Ribbons but don't know what to cut.
I'm really liking Ruin Raider and thinking about upping to three copies, shaving a copy of [card]Pia Nalaar
[/card].
Tommorow I'll attend a tournament to see how I fare.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I also really like the explore build, as it lets you filter through cards. I'm running this currently.
3x Channeler Initiate
4x Deathgorge Scavenger
3x Dire Fleet Poisoner
2x Glorybringer
2x Jadelight Ranger
2x Ravenous Chupacabra
3x Rekindling Phoenix
4x Seekers' Squire
Enchantment (2)
2x Arguel's Blood Fast
Land (23)
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Canyon Slough
4x Dragonskull Summit
2x Forest
3x Mountain
4x Rootbound Crag
2x Swamp
3x Abrade
3x Fatal Push
2x Magma Spray
2x Vraska's Contempt
2x Moment of Craving
2x Cut // Ribbons
1x Arguel's Blood Fast
2x Duress
2x Kitesail Freebooter
2x Prowling Serpopard
1x Rekindling Phoenix
2x Silent Gravestone
2x Thrashing Brontodon
1x Vraska's Contempt
People definitely killed the initiates early if they could, but I also got a few turn 3 Phoenix, and you can do things like put all of the counters on a Phoenix or 1/2 squire/ 2/1 ranger late game. So your not just drawing a dead card. X/4 is also a big game right now.
I didn't draw bloodfast much this time around, I drew treasure map a bunch though lol.
I think ruin raider will kill you more often than not. You can control when it triggers, but I'm sure you will get hit for 3-5 consistently. I'd rather have bloodfast because it's consistently 2 and you can have a turn where you use it 3-4 times instead of just doing it once, and on your end step. Raider also wants you to attack and we can't race aggro decks, we're just too slow. So I think he's sideboard material at best. Same with scrounger. I'm more interested in dread wanderer as a recursive threat because he can block (and it's a one drop).
Why are your cuts in the board? Surely they are better than the moment of cravings? I've won plenty of games because of ribbons.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
This is why I'm not sure Drover is the answer either. I think the Initiate will at the very least throw someone off, and if you can get off one counter you are protected from Magma/Shock. A turn 3 Phoenix or Raptor should be what we are going for, and then the mana fixing element.
Agreed, that's why Bloodfast is perfect for this deck.
Just got too cute with it. Was hoping to exile bigger threats with moment and magma's. Liked the lifegain, but Cut Ribbons is going in the MB.
Follow up with more removal or Glorybringer. Usually, that's game.
If that's no option, you just got to stall and draw into your finishers. Freebooter and Pia make attacking early possible to trigger raid (always drop Ruin Raider 2nd mainphase). Raider has given me more value than trouble, if any. I flipped a Glorybringer once. Ouch, but I was still at 19 life so no biggy. T.b.h. I have finished a lot of games on 20 or more life, Just keep the board clean.
Imho this deck needs role players.
Also, a primer
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
@SmauG what do you think of the explore creatures? Maybe instead of the ramping creatures we roll both Seeker's Squire and Ixalli's Diviner. Both can slow the game down and help filter the deck.
Raider vs Blood Fast is my other big debate.
Also, but i'm not sure on this one, Does explore allow to lower our landcount?????
What does everybody think of Walking Ballista? In my playtesting I feel like i'm often times keeping it in hand in favour of other stuff untill I can get it down for 4 mana minimum and even then, it's only blocking once and pinging one dude. I feel like this might not be the deck for it. Though, when it's good, it's great.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I'm running 24 lands without any ramp and I feel like that's currently the right number. I've considered 23 with all of the explore I have, but I'm not sure yet.
This card is great for a deck looking to go long and has high impact creatures like Chupacabra and Glorybringer (or even Ripjaw Raptor/Regisaur Alpha).
An easy way to flip it is Thrashing Brontodon which is a good maindeck card anyway.
I haven't been impressed with the explore creatures as they fit better in "BG Constrictor" where they can grow into legitimate threats.
Jadelight Ranger is a reasonable standalone creature though I'm not sure I'd take it over either Deathgorge or Brontodon in the 3-mana slot.