The reason this deck is making top 8 is because it doesn't have a bad "hand" and can usually auto lose only if you're stuck on 2 lands for the first 4-5 turns or if you get mana flooded so you have 8 lands and 4 other cards in the first 4 turns.
Aside from those situations, the deck autoruns into wins by turn 5 or 6, hell, even with my big Red deck I can win by turn 5 regularly if I get the nuts draw and drop a land every turn for the first 4 turns at least.
The fact that all the decks run pretty much the same creatures doesn't mean much because there's not much variation in red aside from my deck which runs bigger creatures. Also, this deck can finish the opp using burn spells since it seems everyone prefers Shocks of Magma Sprays so I'll probably test that as well.
I don't know how the mirror match will go for these decks since it seems whoever goes in first will win, my deck is kinda set up to survive and beat the mirror match so I should do better in the mirror match with my slightly bigger butt creatures which puts them out of lightning strike range, and also with running 2 Sweltering Suns in the sideboard. Actually I recommend that everyone should run Sweltering Suns in the sideboard, at least 2-3 of those for the mirror match and for any other decks such as Temur energy.
Can't wait to play this deck and see if my build can win the mirror match as well as take apart other decks as it has been doing up until now.
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I'm taking the stock list as a baseline and swapped 1 Aethersphere Harvestor for a 2nd Sweltering Suns. I'll be playing this out at my LGS this coming week and see how it runs overall.
I'm taking the stock list as a baseline and swapped 1 Aethersphere Harvestor for a 2nd Sweltering Suns. I'll be playing this out at my LGS this coming week and see how it runs overall.
Yeah, turn 3 or turn 4 Sweltering Suns should clear the board, in everyone's decks only hazoret would survive the 3 damage. All the other creatures have 3 or less toughness, so playing at least two suns in the sideboard is a must, maybe even 3 copies is best.
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I've updated the Primer based on the decklists we've seen. I'm using the aggregate as the sample decklist. I have kept the Black Splash decklist in light of this from the MTGO PTQ:
He/She managed to keep Ramunap, but did cut Sunscorch, opting to run Spire of Industry to up the black mana sources. It's an interesting version. I am not sure if it is better than just straight Mono Red in light of the taplands and slightly unstable mana. Does open up some nice options in Black though.
Interesting that the successful lists are very Rigging Runner light. I guess the idea is that your best hands feature a one drop on turn one while you really don't want to play the runner turn one.
I've updated the Primer based on the decklists we've seen. I'm using the aggregate as the sample decklist. I have kept the Black Splash decklist in light of this from the MTGO PTQ:
He/She managed to keep Ramunap, but did cut Sunscorch, opting to run Spire of Industry to up the black mana sources. It's an interesting version. I am not sure if it is better than just straight Mono Red in light of the taplands and slightly unstable mana. Does open up some nice options in Black though.
i tried something similar and posted my results in the previous R/x thread. R/b is not as fast as Ramunap Red, as evidenced by even matchup vs a supposedly slow (but explosive) deck B/G Energy.
so i modified the list so that it could have removal at instant speed and got rid of Key to the City, which was lackluster unless Hazoret is in play. the loss of Keys means Inventor's Apprentice got worse, so i got rid of those too. Unlicensed Disintegration stayed because it's unconditional removal for big creatures regular burn can't deal with and it has an upside.
the result was a much better win rate. i do hope my deck's effective vs other decks too. we'll find out this FNM.
Interesting that the successful lists are very Rigging Runner light. I guess the idea is that your best hands feature a one drop on turn one while you really don't want to play the runner turn one.
i've not been a fan of it, as i posted in the previous R/x aggro thread. slow and gimmicky. Soul Scar's better because it has prowess and wither effect and can be dropped T1 without feeling bad about it.
When I was testing black/red it didn't work out for me, and also cut//ribbons didn't do much. I was never able to flashback ribbons since I was busy doing other stuff with my mana and the game usually ended by turn 7 or 8 one way or another so I didn't have time to flash ribbons back.
I did use Unlicensed disintegration a lot, but again I didn't have any artifacts to deal the 3 damage to the opponent but it was very good at killing bigger creatures. However the 3 mana cost fights with the other 3 drops in my deck, and when I reached 4 lands I had a choice to cast a creature or use UD...so I prefer the removal to cost only 2 mana so that when I reach 4 lands I can cast 2 removal spells or cast two 2-drop creature or one of each.
So, on a more control type deck and not so aggro UD and Cut/Ribbons will probably work well but for this very aggro deck you don't really want 3 casting cost spells that fight with the 3 drop creatures that need to come out on turn 3.
I still think that the 1 drops in the mono-red decks just win some games due to the inevitability of casting all the small creatures and you can win that way. However, if decks start playing sweepers like sweltering suns or even the new 3 mana instant pyroclasm it will definitely change this deck to higher casting and bigger creatures.
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@PapaThor: I wonder how RB fairs vs UWx Approach. The UW deck appears to be real and likely the main choice for control mages going forward. It’s likely the most relevant factor as to whether to go with a splash or not.
RB gets Scrounger, but it’s not as good against the Settle the Wreckage or Cast Out removal package anyway. Also, Disintegration and Cut // Ribbons are dead draws game 1. I’m not sure how consistently you’ll be able to keep Apprentice turned on under heavy removal.
Mono-Red has some issues with its main board too, like Abrade, but I think that slot is more flexible main than Disintegration. Chandra is better than Key and Kari Zev better at attacking Gideon than Scrounger. The Sunscorched deserts are not inconsequential either.
I’m inclined to think Mono Red has the advantage Game 1. After side it’s probably a different story depending on the RB sideboard.
@PapaThor: I wonder how RB fairs vs UWx Approach. The UW deck appears to be real and likely the main choice for control mages going forward. It’s likely the most relevant factor as to whether to go with a splash or not.
RB gets Scrounger, but it’s not as good against the Settle the Wreckage or Cast Out removal package anyway. Also, Disintegration and Cut // Ribbons are dead draws game 1. I’m not sure how consistently you’ll be able to keep Apprentice turned on under heavy removal.
Mono-Red has some issues with its main board too, like Abrade, but I think that slot is more flexible main than Disintegration. Chandra is better than Key and Kari Zev better at attacking Gideon than Scrounger. The Sunscorched deserts are not inconsequential either.
I’m inclined to think Mono Red has the advantage Game 1. After side it’s probably a different story depending on the RB sideboard.
i think RR's better than R/b vs U/W Approach simply because of its raw speed and consistency game 1.
with my deck, i plan to remove the dead cards like Fatal Push x 2 and Unlicensed Disintegration x 2 and replace them with Duress and Lathnu Hellion. Abrade and some Unlicensed Disintegration might still be needed post board if ever opponent decides to use Torrential Gearhulk. i took a look at the R/b deck you posted at the first page. i think trying to match RR's speed and power is not the ideal game plan for splashing Black. might as well play RR that doesn't have lands that come into play tapped. R/b should instead take advantage of the black splash for hand disruption like Duress and Harsh Scrutiny post board.
of course, most of what i said are theoretical, but it's a reasonable game plan nonetheless that i have tested against G/B constrictor to satisfying results.
I think the Discard could be good after board, which is what might make the Black splash appealing. Its too bad they don't run Gearhulks main, but I imagine that is to dodge the game 1 removal. You also have to be careful of them siding into Regal Caracal. That can be a problem for both decks if it goes unanswered.
I think the Discard could be good after board, which is what might make the Black splash appealing. Its too bad they don't run Gearhulks main, but I imagine that is to dodge the game 1 removal. You also have to be careful of them siding into Regal Caracal. That can be a problem for both decks if it goes unanswered.
ah yes those cats. i forgot about them. fortunately,Regal Caracal is 5 CMC so it will take a while before they hit the board. so what do they board out when boarding in Caracal and/or Gearhulks?
They had this very matchup in the SCG VS Series recently. UW brought in Regal Caracal, Authority of Consuls, and a couple Gearhulks. They cut Supreme Will and shaved off 1-2 on the more expensive spells like Glimmer, Cast Out, and Fumigate.
interesting. so removal isn't totally dead against them. i guess take out 2x Fatal Push and replace with 2x Duress. maybe replace 2 Unlicensed Disintegration with 2 Lathnu hellion.
Game 1 the removal is dead, which is what I was trying to say. Post board, I would still cut Push and Disintegrate. However, likely bring in a couple of Abrade because it hits both the cat and the hulk. I’d be filling the rest of the spots with threats like Chandra.
That is why Ferocidon has a huge impact against U/W approach, especially against Regal Caracal. Remember, Ferocidon not only stops lifegain from occuring, when Caracal hit's the battlefield, the opponent loses not just 1 life, but 3 life due to the 2 cat tokens. This is why im emphasizing the importance of running 2-3 Ferocidon in everyone's sideboard.
A 3/3 for 3 Menace with ability to ping and stop lifegain is a huge advantage against decks like U/W after sideboard.
After playing RR almost all last season, I can confirm the board is junk against AotSS. You just don't have anything in red to disrupt their plan in a meaningful way. Short of straight-up killing them. Rampaging Ferocidon is something you didn't have pre-rotation, but even with that tool I think that post board matches heavily favor AotSS. Honestly, that's the primary reason I've been maintaining a black splash in the Hazoret deck and considered going with a black base splashing red.
Game 1 the removal is dead, which is what I was trying to say. Post board, I would still cut Push and Disintegrate. However, likely bring in a couple of Abrade because it hits both the cat and the hulk. I’d be filling the rest of the spots with threats like Chandra.
ah. didn't notice Caracal's only 3/3. i thought it's 3/4, beyond Abrade's reach.
but isn't Chandra too slow? 2 damage per turn is not 4 damage per turn for 2 turns like Lathnu Hellion. on the other hand, she doesn't get exiled by Settle the Wreckage. still, i am concerned she may not do much work before the opponent wins via casting another Approach.
After playing RR almost all last season, I can confirm the board is junk against AotSS. You just don't have anything in red to disrupt their plan in a meaningful way. Short of straight-up killing them. Rampaging Ferocidon is something you didn't have pre-rotation, but even with that tool I think that post board matches heavily favor AotSS. Honestly, that's the primary reason I've been maintaining a black splash in the Hazoret deck and considered going with a black base splashing red.
i managed to defeat U/W approach decks pre rotation even with Blessed Alliance.... though by a very slim margin. i too am hoping the black splash for hand disruption can help me win against U/W Approach because that deck looks better now.
i managed to defeat U/W approach decks pre rotation even with Blessed Alliance.... though by a very slim margin. i too am hoping the black splash for hand disruption can help me win against U/W Approach because that deck looks better now.
Oh, I'm not contending that RR has an unwinnable slog against Approach. I do, however, feel that sideboarded duels considerably favor AotSS because they have access to higher impact cards than monored can possibly bring to the table. For instance, there is no red analog for how Authority of the Consuls warps our game plan. This puts a huge emphasis on G1 and, while favored pre-board, I think our margin is much leaner than it was. Perhaps I'm jumping at shadows. In several lists, the only card being consistently brought in from the board is Chandra. Some run the dino, which I like, but not all. Maybe that's enough. I suppose it really just comes down to how much of the meta share AotSS claims for itself.
Game 1 the removal is dead, which is what I was trying to say. Post board, I would still cut Push and Disintegrate. However, likely bring in a couple of Abrade because it hits both the cat and the hulk. I’d be filling the rest of the spots with threats like Chandra.
ah. didn't notice Caracal's only 3/3. i thought it's 3/4, beyond Abrade's reach.
but isn't Chandra too slow? 2 damage per turn is not 4 damage per turn for 2 turns like Lathnu Hellion. on the other hand, she doesn't get exiled by Settle the Wreckage. still, i am concerned she may not do much work before the opponent wins via casting another Approach.
I wasn't super clear. Not just Chandra, but threats in general. Working off a stock list, I'd cut all the shocks, likely cut down to about 2 Abrade and then side into as many of the better threats as I can. Chandra, Ferocidon, maybe a couple Glorybringer if I need to fill some spots.
Chandra is a little bit slow, but it does represent a threat that is a bit harder to remove. She smacks them for 2 a turn and threatens ultimate in a few turns. She also doubles as removal for Caracal, albeit not the cleanest if we don't have some dudes to block.
Ferocidon is probably the best threat we have against them, so it might be worthwhile thinking about running 3-4 of them in the 75 going forward.
Edit: I also think learning how to play around Settle the Wreckage is key in fighting this deck.
I wasn't super clear. Not just Chandra, but threats in general. Working off a stock list, I'd cut all the shocks, likely cut down to about 2 Abrade and then side into as many of the better threats as I can. Chandra, Ferocidon, maybe a couple Glorybringer if I need to fill some spots.
Chandra is a little bit slow, but it does represent a threat that is a bit harder to remove. She smacks them for 2 a turn and threatens ultimate in a few turns. She also doubles as removal for Caracal, albeit not the cleanest if we don't have some dudes to block.
Ferocidon is probably the best threat we have against them, so it might be worthwhile thinking about running 3-4 of them in the 75 going forward.
Edit: I also think learning how to play around Settle the Wreckage is key in fighting this deck.
I think you nailed the most important part at the end, it is the strategy of playing around Settle that is most key in winning these games. I notice a few stating that speed is the most important way to win this game; however, with the counter package, I believe it is playing around the one card that can truly screw us.
Ferocidon I believe is atleast a 2 in the 75 and easily pushed to a 3-4 depending on how the meta shapes up the coming weeks. I believe siding in the larger threats like Chandra and Glorybringer is important. Shocks are useless and Abrade doesn't do much period. Cutting those 6 makes the most sense and playing in 2-3 Ferocidon, 2-3 Glorybringer, and 1-2 Chandra is the way to go.
I'm not sure if I was correct, but when I've played against it on MTGO, my strategy was that when they had Settle mana I would keep back stuff like Khenra or Hazoret. We can recur Khenra and Hazoret can kill with activations.
This only really works if we have something else to attack with, but as long as we are threatening 2-3+ damage that is probably enough. If they don't Settle then we waste their mana. If they do, we still have our better threats for the next turn.
It might even be correct to Shock your own Khenra if it is attacking and they Settle. The Eternalize 4/4 later on is likely worth more than the 2 damage to the dome.
Edit: I would also fire off Lightning Strikes in game 1 whenever I didn't have much else to do. Especially if I could get a prowess trigger on Soul-Scar in the process.
Going black is always going to hurt the consistency but the access to Duress and Doomfall is pretty huge for the Approach matchup. They often rely on one big spell to stabilize.
In several lists, the only card being consistently brought in from the board is Chandra. Some run the dino, which I like, but not all. Maybe that's enough. I suppose it really just comes down to how much of the meta share AotSS claims for itself.
i see. if Chandra's good vs U/W Approach, does that leaves no room for Vance's Blasting Cannons, then?
Authority of Consuls is real bad for us if played T1, so i guess we have to play the deck as if our creatures have no haste.
i think U/W Approach won't be popular at the LGS where i play. i'm more concerned about Temur/4 Color Energy, which is played by 2 out of 3 of the best players there. and by best i mean the top 1 and 2 players here in my country (top planeswalker points), so yeah i feel the pressure.
I wasn't super clear. Not just Chandra, but threats in general. Working off a stock list, I'd cut all the shocks, likely cut down to about 2 Abrade and then side into as many of the better threats as I can. Chandra, Ferocidon, maybe a couple Glorybringer if I need to fill some spots.
Chandra is a little bit slow, but it does represent a threat that is a bit harder to remove. She smacks them for 2 a turn and threatens ultimate in a few turns. She also doubles as removal for Caracal, albeit not the cleanest if we don't have some dudes to block.
Ferocidon is probably the best threat we have against them, so it might be worthwhile thinking about running 3-4 of them in the 75 going forward.
Edit: I also think learning how to play around Settle the Wreckage is key in fighting this deck.
isn't playing around board wipes a requirement for aggro decks in general when facing control?
anyway i agree that Chandra is helpful against U/W Approach considering they have an instant speed 4 mana board wipe that they can flashback with Torrential Gearhulk.
i am still on the fence regarding Ferocidon, though. i think Lathnu Hellion's better. in my mind, closing the game early beats trying to prevent life gain, simply because U/W Approach can win in 8 turns.
Going black is always going to hurt the consistency but the access to Duress and Doomfall is pretty huge for the Approach matchup. They often rely on one big spell to stabilize.
yeah, Captain Storm may be the missing piece in R/b aggro decks that wish to rely on artifact synergy. good call on its synergy with Fatal Push.
4 Bomat Courier
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Earthshaker Khenra
3 Kari-Zev
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Hazoret the Fervent
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
4 Abrade
Lands (24)
15 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Sunscorched Desert
1 Scavenger Grounds
2 Chandra's Defeat
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance,
3 Glorybringer
2 Rampaging Ferocidon
2 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Pia Nalaar
1 Vance's Blasting Cannons
1 Sweltering Suns
Slot / Freq / Card
1 100% Bomat Courier 1
2 100% Bomat Courier 2
3 100% Bomat Courier 3
4 100% Bomat Courier 4
5 100% Soul-Scar Mage 1
6 100% Soul-Scar Mage 2
7 100% Soul-Scar Mage 3
8 100% Soul-Scar Mage 4
9 100% Earthshaker Khenra 1
10 100% Earthshaker Khenra 2
11 100% Earthshaker Khenra 3
12 100% Earthshaker Khenra 4
13 100% Kari Zev, Skyship Raider 1
14 100% Kari Zev, Skyship Raider 2
15 100% Ahn-Crop Crasher 1
16 100% Ahn-Crop Crasher 2
17 100% Ahn-Crop Crasher 3
18 100% Ahn-Crop Crasher 4
19 100% Hazoret the Fervent 1
20 100% Hazoret the Fervent 2
21 100% Hazoret the Fervent 3
22 100% Chandra, Torch of Defiance 1
23 100% Lightning Strike 1
24 100% Lightning Strike 2
25 100% Lightning Strike 3
26 100% Lightning Strike 4
27 100% Shock 1
28 100% Shock 2
29 100% Abrade 1
30 88% Kari Zev, Skyship Raider 3
31 88% Hazoret the Fervent 4
32 88% Shock 3
33 88% Shock 4
34 88% Abrade 2
35 75% Abrade 3
36 50% Abrade 4
37 50% Chandra, Torch of Defiance 2
----------------------------------------------
38 25% Rigging Runner 1
39 25% Rigging Runner 2
40 25% Rigging Runner 3
41 13% Glorybringer 1
42 13% Rampaging Ferocidon 1
43 0% Rigging Runner 4
44 0% Kari Zev, Skyship Raider 4
45 0% Glorybringer 2
46 0% Glorybringer 3
47 0% Glorybringer 4
48 0% Chandra, Torch of Defiance 3
49 0% Chandra, Torch of Defiance 4
50 0% Repeating Barrage 1
51 0% Repeating Barrage 2
52 0% Repeating Barrage 3
53 0% Repeating Barrage 4
54 0% Magma Spray 1
55 0% Magma Spray 2
56 0% Magma Spray 3
57 0% Magma Spray 4
58 0% Rampaging Ferocidon 2
59 0% Rampaging Ferocidon 3
60 0% Rampaging Ferocidon 4
# Decks / Avg Per / Card
7 2.6 Chandra's Defeat
6 2.0 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
6 3.2 Glorybringer
5 2.6 Rampaging Ferocidon
4 1.5 Aethersphere Harvester
4 1.8 Pia Nalaar
4 1.5 Abrade3 1.0 Vance's Blasting Cannons
2 1.0 Sweltering Suns
-------------------------------------------
2 2.5 Harsh Mentor
2 1.0 Land
2 2.0 Sand Strangler
1 1.0 Scavenger Grounds
1 1.0 Insult // Injury
1 1.0 Sorerous Spyglass
1 1.0 Magma Spray
1 2.0 Kari Zev's Expertise
1 1.0 Key to the City
Observations:
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Aside from those situations, the deck autoruns into wins by turn 5 or 6, hell, even with my big Red deck I can win by turn 5 regularly if I get the nuts draw and drop a land every turn for the first 4 turns at least.
The fact that all the decks run pretty much the same creatures doesn't mean much because there's not much variation in red aside from my deck which runs bigger creatures. Also, this deck can finish the opp using burn spells since it seems everyone prefers Shocks of Magma Sprays so I'll probably test that as well.
I don't know how the mirror match will go for these decks since it seems whoever goes in first will win, my deck is kinda set up to survive and beat the mirror match so I should do better in the mirror match with my slightly bigger butt creatures which puts them out of lightning strike range, and also with running 2 Sweltering Suns in the sideboard. Actually I recommend that everyone should run Sweltering Suns in the sideboard, at least 2-3 of those for the mirror match and for any other decks such as Temur energy.
Can't wait to play this deck and see if my build can win the mirror match as well as take apart other decks as it has been doing up until now.
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Mtg Lifestyle
BB8-RackBB
Pauper:
UUDelverlUU
Yeah, turn 3 or turn 4 Sweltering Suns should clear the board, in everyone's decks only hazoret would survive the 3 damage. All the other creatures have 3 or less toughness, so playing at least two suns in the sideboard is a must, maybe even 3 copies is best.
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Mtg Lifestyle
4 Bomat Courier
4 Earthshaker Khenra
4 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Inventor's Apprentice
2 Pia Nalaar
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
Sorcery (2)
2 Cut // Ribbons
Instant (10)
4 Lightning Strike
2 Shock
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
2 Key to the City
Land (24)
4 Canyon Slough
4 Dragonskull Summit
8 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Spire of Industry
4 Abrade
1 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Chandra's Defeat
3 Glorybringer
2 Magma Spray
1 Vance's Blasting Cannons
He/She managed to keep Ramunap, but did cut Sunscorch, opting to run Spire of Industry to up the black mana sources. It's an interesting version. I am not sure if it is better than just straight Mono Red in light of the taplands and slightly unstable mana. Does open up some nice options in Black though.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I wonder if there's some room for innovation in an Inventor's Apprentice/Scrapheap Scrounger (Aethersphere Harvester?) sort of package just to shore up the one drops. Ah, Smuggler's Copter, you were taken from us too soon.
i tried something similar and posted my results in the previous R/x thread. R/b is not as fast as Ramunap Red, as evidenced by even matchup vs a supposedly slow (but explosive) deck B/G Energy.
so i modified the list so that it could have removal at instant speed and got rid of Key to the City, which was lackluster unless Hazoret is in play. the loss of Keys means Inventor's Apprentice got worse, so i got rid of those too. Unlicensed Disintegration stayed because it's unconditional removal for big creatures regular burn can't deal with and it has an upside.
the result was a much better win rate. i do hope my deck's effective vs other decks too. we'll find out this FNM.
i've not been a fan of it, as i posted in the previous R/x aggro thread. slow and gimmicky. Soul Scar's better because it has prowess and wither effect and can be dropped T1 without feeling bad about it.
I did use Unlicensed disintegration a lot, but again I didn't have any artifacts to deal the 3 damage to the opponent but it was very good at killing bigger creatures. However the 3 mana cost fights with the other 3 drops in my deck, and when I reached 4 lands I had a choice to cast a creature or use UD...so I prefer the removal to cost only 2 mana so that when I reach 4 lands I can cast 2 removal spells or cast two 2-drop creature or one of each.
So, on a more control type deck and not so aggro UD and Cut/Ribbons will probably work well but for this very aggro deck you don't really want 3 casting cost spells that fight with the 3 drop creatures that need to come out on turn 3.
I still think that the 1 drops in the mono-red decks just win some games due to the inevitability of casting all the small creatures and you can win that way. However, if decks start playing sweepers like sweltering suns or even the new 3 mana instant pyroclasm it will definitely change this deck to higher casting and bigger creatures.
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Mtg Lifestyle
RB gets Scrounger, but it’s not as good against the Settle the Wreckage or Cast Out removal package anyway. Also, Disintegration and Cut // Ribbons are dead draws game 1. I’m not sure how consistently you’ll be able to keep Apprentice turned on under heavy removal.
Mono-Red has some issues with its main board too, like Abrade, but I think that slot is more flexible main than Disintegration. Chandra is better than Key and Kari Zev better at attacking Gideon than Scrounger. The Sunscorched deserts are not inconsequential either.
I’m inclined to think Mono Red has the advantage Game 1. After side it’s probably a different story depending on the RB sideboard.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
i think RR's better than R/b vs U/W Approach simply because of its raw speed and consistency game 1.
with my deck, i plan to remove the dead cards like Fatal Push x 2 and Unlicensed Disintegration x 2 and replace them with Duress and Lathnu Hellion. Abrade and some Unlicensed Disintegration might still be needed post board if ever opponent decides to use Torrential Gearhulk. i took a look at the R/b deck you posted at the first page. i think trying to match RR's speed and power is not the ideal game plan for splashing Black. might as well play RR that doesn't have lands that come into play tapped. R/b should instead take advantage of the black splash for hand disruption like Duress and Harsh Scrutiny post board.
of course, most of what i said are theoretical, but it's a reasonable game plan nonetheless that i have tested against G/B constrictor to satisfying results.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
ah yes those cats. i forgot about them. fortunately,Regal Caracal is 5 CMC so it will take a while before they hit the board. so what do they board out when boarding in Caracal and/or Gearhulks?
i haven't tested those, as i don't have any copy. sounds good in an R/b deck with lots of removal. what's your list? thanks!
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
A 3/3 for 3 Menace with ability to ping and stop lifegain is a huge advantage against decks like U/W after sideboard.
BB8-RackBB
Pauper:
UUDelverlUU
ah. didn't notice Caracal's only 3/3. i thought it's 3/4, beyond Abrade's reach.
but isn't Chandra too slow? 2 damage per turn is not 4 damage per turn for 2 turns like Lathnu Hellion. on the other hand, she doesn't get exiled by Settle the Wreckage. still, i am concerned she may not do much work before the opponent wins via casting another Approach.
i managed to defeat U/W approach decks pre rotation even with Blessed Alliance.... though by a very slim margin. i too am hoping the black splash for hand disruption can help me win against U/W Approach because that deck looks better now.
4 Ahn-Crop Crasher
4 Bomat Courier
2 Captain Lannery Storm
4 Earthshaker Khenra
3 Glorybringer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Built to Smash
4 Lightning Strike
3 Shock
2 Vance's Blasting Cannons
Lands 22
15 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
3 Sunscorched Desert
2 Pia Nalaar
1 Rampaging Ferocidon
3 Abrade
4 Magma Spray
1 Shock
2 Hour of Devastation
2 Crook of Condemnation
i like the deck.
Captain Storm provides the needed ramp so that he could safely run only 22 lands and 3 Glorybringer.
Built to Smash is like a worse Lightning Bolt, speeding up the clock.
this deck proves one doesn't need 3-4 Hazoret in the main to be effective.
Oh, I'm not contending that RR has an unwinnable slog against Approach. I do, however, feel that sideboarded duels considerably favor AotSS because they have access to higher impact cards than monored can possibly bring to the table. For instance, there is no red analog for how Authority of the Consuls warps our game plan. This puts a huge emphasis on G1 and, while favored pre-board, I think our margin is much leaner than it was. Perhaps I'm jumping at shadows. In several lists, the only card being consistently brought in from the board is Chandra. Some run the dino, which I like, but not all. Maybe that's enough. I suppose it really just comes down to how much of the meta share AotSS claims for itself.
I wasn't super clear. Not just Chandra, but threats in general. Working off a stock list, I'd cut all the shocks, likely cut down to about 2 Abrade and then side into as many of the better threats as I can. Chandra, Ferocidon, maybe a couple Glorybringer if I need to fill some spots.
Chandra is a little bit slow, but it does represent a threat that is a bit harder to remove. She smacks them for 2 a turn and threatens ultimate in a few turns. She also doubles as removal for Caracal, albeit not the cleanest if we don't have some dudes to block.
Ferocidon is probably the best threat we have against them, so it might be worthwhile thinking about running 3-4 of them in the 75 going forward.
Edit: I also think learning how to play around Settle the Wreckage is key in fighting this deck.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I think you nailed the most important part at the end, it is the strategy of playing around Settle that is most key in winning these games. I notice a few stating that speed is the most important way to win this game; however, with the counter package, I believe it is playing around the one card that can truly screw us.
Ferocidon I believe is atleast a 2 in the 75 and easily pushed to a 3-4 depending on how the meta shapes up the coming weeks. I believe siding in the larger threats like Chandra and Glorybringer is important. Shocks are useless and Abrade doesn't do much period. Cutting those 6 makes the most sense and playing in 2-3 Ferocidon, 2-3 Glorybringer, and 1-2 Chandra is the way to go.
BB8-RackBB
Pauper:
UUDelverlUU
This only really works if we have something else to attack with, but as long as we are threatening 2-3+ damage that is probably enough. If they don't Settle then we waste their mana. If they do, we still have our better threats for the next turn.
It might even be correct to Shock your own Khenra if it is attacking and they Settle. The Eternalize 4/4 later on is likely worth more than the 2 damage to the dome.
Edit: I would also fire off Lightning Strikes in game 1 whenever I didn't have much else to do. Especially if I could get a prowess trigger on Soul-Scar in the process.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Going black is always going to hurt the consistency but the access to Duress and Doomfall is pretty huge for the Approach matchup. They often rely on one big spell to stabilize.
i see. if Chandra's good vs U/W Approach, does that leaves no room for Vance's Blasting Cannons, then?
Authority of Consuls is real bad for us if played T1, so i guess we have to play the deck as if our creatures have no haste.
i think U/W Approach won't be popular at the LGS where i play. i'm more concerned about Temur/4 Color Energy, which is played by 2 out of 3 of the best players there. and by best i mean the top 1 and 2 players here in my country (top planeswalker points), so yeah i feel the pressure.
isn't playing around board wipes a requirement for aggro decks in general when facing control?
anyway i agree that Chandra is helpful against U/W Approach considering they have an instant speed 4 mana board wipe that they can flashback with Torrential Gearhulk.
i am still on the fence regarding Ferocidon, though. i think Lathnu Hellion's better. in my mind, closing the game early beats trying to prevent life gain, simply because U/W Approach can win in 8 turns.
yeah, Captain Storm may be the missing piece in R/b aggro decks that wish to rely on artifact synergy. good call on its synergy with Fatal Push.