Without the discounts from Kinjalli's Caller and Otepec Huntmaster, the Dinosaurs are just slow and clunky creatures that's sure to get steamrolled by Ramunap Red
This is not true. Ramunap Red isn't quite the deck it used to be, and non-white dinosaurs like Raptors and Scavenger are good enough for the MU. Regisaur is a nice stabilisation, and the Gruul versions run removal spells in the main anyway. Dinosaurs struggle against decks that go over the top (Energy), not decks that sneak under. And it's obviously a bit tricky against interactive decks (Control, Pirates, BG Midrange).
Are you sure about that? Ramunap Red hasn't really lost much; it lost Incendiary Flow which got upgraded to Lightning Strike and can still fly over the top with Glorybringer.I just feel that Kinjalli's Sunwing gives you much more breathing room.
Against Temur Energy, I think having white is more critical because without the discounts from Kinjalli's Caller, Temur would just be able to outgrind Dinosaurs.
However one card that I think Dinosaurs will have a VERY hard time dealing with is Settle the Wreckage; this card almost seems too broken as the extra ramp I think does not equally balance out exiling all opponent's attacking creatures, especially when additional ramping by Turn 4 doesn't yield as much benefit. Carnage Tyrant isn't immune since it doesn't target, so I'm not sure how the Dinosaurs can beat that. Maybe just Fling the Dinos to get that last bit of damage through?
I honestly don't really care too much about Glorybringer. It can't do enough against Regisaur Alpha to matter and the regisaur gets out faster and hits sooner in the dino deck. Even if they kill the dorks, by that point you've already got enough lands to just cast the 4 drops outright, and in the mean time the only thing ramunap can do is mess around with Hazoret because we basically out value them on every play. Gruul dinosaurs is fine. If anything, I prefer the consistency of a two color mana base over going three color, especially in a format that has land hate. Not to mention in Naya builds I've seen the only multi-color non-land source is Drover of the mighty.
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3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So here is my version of G/R Dinosaurs. I think the E package might be needed in order have Harnessed Lightning to kill bigger creatures (Glorybringer, Gearhulks, and Dinosaurs). Also wondering if I should put the two copies of Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the sideboard, and put two Carnage Tyrant in the mainboard?
So here is my version of G/R Dinosaurs. I think the E package might be needed in order have Harnessed Lightning to kill bigger creatures (Glorybringer, Gearhulks, and Dinosaurs). Also wondering if I should put the two copies of Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the sideboard, and put two Carnage Tyrant in the mainboard?
Don't worry about running Rampaging Ferocidon yet. That card will have a place later if tokens become a thing. The best drops at three from the deck when I tested were in fact Rhonas The Indomitable and Deathgorge Scavenger. Also, we actually don't need to have as many three drops because the extra mana from the servant and drover let is go strait to 4 cmc turn 3 fairly reliably. I did originally like the idea of Ferocidon because of being a 3/3, but then realized there are so many 3 damage sources in the format that the difference between 2 and 3 toughness is negligible outside of limited.
On the subject with Chandra: Yes play her to your hearts content. She is just strait good value and gives reach even in dinosaurs. If the deck were trying three color (which I personally don't like at the moment due to the fixing we have...) then it might be questionable, but in two color having the sources by turn 3 to pop into a Chandra is extremely viable. Also, definitely run Bristling Hydra if you are going energy. You don't need a lot of them and the extra energy helps with Aether Hub. Not to mention they can be pumped to 5/4 and are very hard to get rid of. The only weakness the deck has is that once a dino is dead, it is dead. We don't really have a lot of ways to get creatures back that are main-deck worthy. Maybe a one of Nissa, Vital Force, but that is about it, and even I relegated her to the sideboard in my original build.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
So here is my version of G/R Dinosaurs. I think the E package might be needed in order have Harnessed Lightning to kill bigger creatures (Glorybringer, Gearhulks, and Dinosaurs). Also wondering if I should put the two copies of Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the sideboard, and put two Carnage Tyrant in the mainboard?
Turn 2 mana dork
Turn 3 play 3 drop play Savage Stomp.
I like Otepec Huntmaster in these lists more than the other mana dorks -- turning into a 3/3 late game isn't that relevant when players are chaining Rogue Refiners.
Edit: GR lists have classically been weak to low to the ground red decks. You should pack 4x Magma Spray in your SB for week 1 (although maybe you want fodder for Scavenger; in which case you should play Shock). People playing are often lazy and want to just play board wipes -- but in reality the game is about playing the most impactful cards the fastest and getting them dead quickly. Either not deploying to the board to get max value out of your board wipe or wiping your own dinos is a bad time -- especially when your early drops represent mana.
Settle the Wreckage is absolutely problematic. In such MUs, the best way to answer the card is to play huge mana dumps. Rhonas requires an attack step and is Kessig Wolf Run. He's not bad but I'm hesitant. Repeating Barrage might be worth investigating. If you got to combat, you're good to go.
I understand why people like Carnage Tyrant but I don't think he's an effect we want a ton of until spot removal starts seeing a lot of Game 1 play. Game 2, when games get attritioney, he seems excellent but he can't win a board stall and is very easily chumped by Refiners, Virtuosos, and other idiots your opponent has lying around.
Ah, almost forgot Scrapheap Scrounger is still a thing. I was debating dual shot or magma spray in the deck earlier.
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I think the early news is out and the deck might be practically Ixalan block constructed but it's super aggresive.
The Standout cards seem to be the Huntmaster, Ripjaw, and Savage Stomp. I'm constructing my deck to say "Do you have an answer to my turn 2 dork? Yes? Fine. No? Good Luck.
I just want to turn 3 play a 3 drop and savage stomp or play a ripjaw raptor and swing with it right away. I don't think we want Longtusk Cub or cards that are great but better in different decks. My early testing and the video's of other pro's seems to point to "Play Dino's and Swing Early" alongside "Make sure you don't lose to Ramanup or Control".
Initially, I'm not seeing Deathgorge Scavenger's potential, but now I do. He eats removal spell right after playing one, and swing big. I like it. Might be playing Shock and Lightning Strike as fodder. Rampaging Ferocidon on the other hand, I have a mixed feeling. Menace truly beneficial, but the 2nd and 3rd ability might bite us back, unless we are able to race better.
Took you guys a bit to figure out that turn three 3cmc drop into Savage Stomp was busted lol.
Deathgorge Scavenger is a very interesting card. It has a lot of play -- it exiles creatures nuking Scarab God's ability and it nukes T. Gearhulk so they get cut off chaining Glimmers and Gearhulks.
It does have draw backs. Mainly, if you opponent is playing some number of Whirler Virtuoso or Rogue Refiner it looks really stupid.
So here is my version of G/R Dinosaurs. I think the E package might be needed in order have Harnessed Lightning to kill bigger creatures (Glorybringer, Gearhulks, and Dinosaurs). Also wondering if I should put the two copies of Chandra, Torch of Defiance in the sideboard, and put two Carnage Tyrant in the mainboard?
Turn 2 mana dork
Turn 3 play 3 drop play Savage Stomp.
I like Otepec Huntmaster in these lists more than the other mana dorks -- turning into a 3/3 late game isn't that relevant when players are chaining Rogue Refiners.
Edit: GR lists have classically been weak to low to the ground red decks. You should pack 4x Magma Spray in your SB for week 1 (although maybe you want fodder for Scavenger; in which case you should play Shock). People playing are often lazy and want to just play board wipes -- but in reality the game is about playing the most impactful cards the fastest and getting them dead quickly. Either not deploying to the board to get max value out of your board wipe or wiping your own dinos is a bad time -- especially when your early drops represent mana.
Settle the Wreckage is absolutely problematic. In such MUs, the best way to answer the card is to play huge mana dumps. Rhonas requires an attack step and is Kessig Wolf Run. He's not bad but I'm hesitant. Repeating Barrage might be worth investigating. If you got to combat, you're good to go.
I understand why people like Carnage Tyrant but I don't think he's an effect we want a ton of until spot removal starts seeing a lot of Game 1 play. Game 2, when games get attritioney, he seems excellent but he can't win a board stall and is very easily chumped by Refiners, Virtuosos, and other idiots your opponent has lying around.
I still really want the dream of a turn 1 Kinjalli's Caller as it would give you a 3-drop on turn 2 and even a 4-drop + 3-drop on turn 3 if you get another mana dork on turn 2, but I suppose the consensus is that adding white is just too difficult.
Ah, almost forgot Scrapheap Scrounger is still a thing. I was debating dual shot or magma spray in the deck earlier.
Another reason to play Deathgorge Scavenger. Don't bother play too many reactive cards.
I too dislike the energy package, but I can see the merits. I just think Commune with Dinosaurs is so much stronger than Attune with Aether that's it's a shame not to slam 4 copies. I don't know why some of you guys can't appreciate the power of that standard-legal Ancient Stirrings.
Basically, a list like this wants to do this:
Turn 2 mana dork
Turn 3 play 3 drop play Savage Stomp.
And that kind of list will constantly fail. Stomp costs G only if you have a Dino. By playing energy creatures instead of Ranging Raptors, and only 2 copies of Stomp, I don't agree that this list wants to do that specific play on turn 3.
I believe players miss something about Dinos here : Ripjaw Raptor and Ranging Raptors can be played around, and that's why you probably want 4x Savage Stomp. It's a proactive play that triggers Enrage. Otherwise Enrage feels like a bad punisher mechanic, i.e. sthg that has always been considered as trash in competitive Magic.
I might be wrong, but imho, either you go full Dinos and you hope it's good enough in the format to come, or you drop the idea and go build the best Energy deck you can instead. Something in between 2 strats, once again, has always been considered as bad deck building in competitive Magic, and that's what I fear to see here. A rare counter-example may be Winding Constrictor, but it actually synergizes with both counters and energy cards. I see no synergy between Dinos and Hydras here.
And finally, if it's a Monsters deck one wants to build, I don't understand why Glorybringer isn't in the slot of Regisaur Alpha to begin with. Has the dragon disappointed yet ?
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I like Commune with Dinosaurs, but I just didn't have the room to play four copies in the deck when running energy, and I actually found the deck plays better when moving away from focusing on triggering enrage in gimmicky fashions. I can play Turn 3 Deathgorge Scavenger and then use Savage Stomp to boost it and kill something on the field, but at the same time what exactly is the opponent running that has 4 toughness turn 3? Not to mention, I just burned two cards in one play to kill one creature and make a 4/3 in a format full of Lightning Strike, Abrade, and Harnessed Lightning. I'd rather on turn 3 play Bristling Hydra, which is a 4/3 out right and has the ability to protect itself from removal via burning the energy it has coming in, or play Ripjaw Raptor that can survive pretty much everything minus black removal options like Walk the Plank and Vraska's Contempt. In fact, that is the very reason I went to running Hydras: They can survive Cast Out, Walk the Plank, Vraska's Contempt, etc.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
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3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Stomp is no gimmick, it's a synergistic removal spell like Harnessed Lightning is in an Energy deck. You want the 8 Enrage creatures to turn Stomp into a decent 2-for-1.
Not to mention, I just burned two cards in one play to kill one creature and make a 4/3 in a format full of Lightning Strike, Abrade, and Harnessed Lightning.
Well, you're supposed to use Stomp on Ranging Raptors, which suddenly becomes a 3/4 immune to these removal spells... or slow roll it and target Ripjaw Raptor instead. In those scenarios, Stomp is a 2-for-1.
I'd rather on turn 3 play Bristling Hydra, which is a 4/3 out right and has the ability to protect itself from removal via burning the energy it has coming in
All the red spells you mention can kill the Hydra while its etb trigger is on the stack. Also Fatal Push kills 4-drops overall, let's not forget that card. Other than that, we agree Hydra is still a great 4-drop.
What I'm saying is that there's a chance building a hybrid is fun and all, but not competitive enough, and a worse archetype than straight Dinos or straight Energy. I don't see why Energy should bring Dinos, and why Dinos should dilute their synergies. It's tempting because colors match, but I'm afraid it doesn't go further.
Stomp is no gimmick, it's a synergistic removal spell like Harnessed Lightning is in an Energy deck. You want the 8 Enrage creatures to turn Stomp into a decent 2-for-1.
Not to mention, I just burned two cards in one play to kill one creature and make a 4/3 in a format full of Lightning Strike, Abrade, and Harnessed Lightning.
Well, you're supposed to use Stomp on Ranging Raptors, which suddenly becomes a 3/4 immune to these removal spells... or slow roll it and target Ripjaw Raptor instead. In those scenarios, Stomp is a 2-for-1.
I'd rather on turn 3 play Bristling Hydra, which is a 4/3 out right and has the ability to protect itself from removal via burning the energy it has coming in
All the red spells you mention can kill the Hydra while its etb trigger is on the stack. Also Fatal Push kills 4-drops overall, let's not forget that card. Other than that, we agree Hydra is still a great 4-drop.
What I'm saying is that there's a chance building a hybrid is fun and all, but not competitive enough, and a worse archetype than straight Dinos or straight Energy. I don't see why Energy should bring Dinos, and why Dinos should dilute their synergies. It's tempting because colors match, but I'm afraid it doesn't go further.
You keep saying it is weaker yet in testing it comes out stronger. I'm not really sure what else to say on this, I've had great success using Attune with Aether and one copy of Commune with Dinosaurs because the majority of the time, attune with Aether is the better early game draw than the Commune with Dinosaurs. It doesn't matter if all red spells can kill Bristling Hydra because the reality is that they can't actually kill hydra if you play it intelligently. If they try to nuke it, that is when to use the ability. Also, I really like Glorybringer in the mirror against other decks using Regisaur Alpha. It just does what I want in those match ups, which is kill the dino lord and fly over the other threats. Combining that package with sideboard options like Sweltering Suns (or Fiery Cannonade), abrade, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and Nissa, Vital Force and the resulting deck has some alternatives against extremely removal heavy decks like control.
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Am I the only one who likes the idea of Boros Dino aggro better? Haven't drawn up a list,nor am I familiar with the current standard, but it seems the evasion of the lower end mixed with burn and exile removal could be effective.
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Standard Decks:
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
Bristling Hydra can surely be played intelligently, but the ideal is to get those 3 E counters before Hydra etb as consistently as possible, which is why 3-drops that provide E are so satisfying. Later in the game, I believe you want to go over the top and need those extra E counters.
I am curious to see where your list is at this point.
On a side note, I'm very confident with my 4 6-drops in the main. I feel like some players don't even test them because they feel those'll get stuck in hand, which is absolutely not what happens. So they stop their deckbuilding at 5 cmc, and that may be why they consider there's not enough Dinosaurs, and then splash a third color, Energy stuff, or subpar fillers.
- The manabase is good, it happened only once that I missed a 3rd source for an Avatar on curve. Since it can happen though, maybe an extra should be added. I had to cut the 2 Hashep Oasis, but I never used more than one in the late game, and a very few times. I think deserts are completely unecessary.
- I want to run the 2 Fatal Push in the main, it's probably doable. Now do I cut the Abrades or the Strikes, impossible to define since there's no metagame yet.
- Chandra could move to the SB (for 2 Fatal Push, not cutting the other removal spells), and 2 Carnage Tyrant could come in (-2 Avatars), but once again it's all meta dependant.
- I have 6 easy cuts for aggro, 8 for control, and undefined for the rest.
- No spells allowed.
- the split Duress / Doomfall is here to anticipate Gods. We'll see.
- Vraska might be worse than Nissa, but UW Approach going down to 1 life is tempting. Also it's the Appetite for the Unnatural/ Crushing Canopy potential slot.
- Spyglass is probably good enough to be worth 2 copies, but 1 could be enough. Meta dependant.
- A second copy of Cartouche of Ambition could be better in a very aggressive environment. It plays well with Stomp, can gain life multiple times, can trigger a race vs aggro, and can break the fatties mirrors. This slot fights with other subpar cards I don't like much:
* Ravenous Daggertooth, unreliable with Ahn-Crop Crasher, Earthershaker Khenra, Heart of Kiran, and Menace creatures who can choose to assign all damage on the 2nd blocker instead.
* Life Goes On doesn't give the chance to get rid of a creature, especially Rampaging Ferocidon. That dino is a pain.
* Battle at the Bridge, too expensive, too reactive, and only a one-shot.
Actually, I'm not saying its better than all in energy at all. The big problem with the two block structure and a huge rotation is that we lose a ton of cards and then get an incomplete archetype in its place. This isn't a Dino deck issue, it's an issue across all of the Ixalan tribal decks. To expect an Ixalan block deck to stand a chance against kaladesh when the kaladesh block decks have all the in block support released already is silly.
I want to build the strongest deck on theme with what cards we do have and migrate later to the full block deck.
Right now I think the most competitive deck I got is blue white flying men.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If you check out mtggoldfish you'll see that Dinosaurs have already started getting 5-0 finished in MTGO leagues, and all of them are RG. I guess it's becoming clear that fixing white is just too hard and not worth it,. We really need to pay green since the best Dinosaurs all require green mana.
Now I'm wondering that if Dinosaurs were to be a thing, is it preferable to go all in on Dinosaurs or splash other stuff? Some of the recent 5-0 finishes on MTGO went all in on Dinosaurs whereas others splashed other stuff like Rhonas, Glorybringer, and even Walking Ballista.
I use Rhonas the Indomitable since he is a good answer to Hazoret the Fervent. Other than blocking with Carnage Tyrant there weren't too many ways to stop her in the deck. I feel he will probably start going to the sideboard later depending on if red rush holds or not.
My opinion on spashing stuff is that since this is a very value oriented deck (pick strong cards at each tier instead of worrying about a lot of synergy), it's pretty flexible on how one goes about configuring it. The only major synergies the deck has are between the human component at the low CMC and the dinosaur tribal spells like Savage Stomp and Commune with Dinosaurs.
As for why RG is the preferred route right now, it's because the mana issue is hard to deal with and the payoff isn't there to make struggling with it worthwhile. I feel safer just splashing for white in order to play Cast Out or Ixalan's Binding, but that is about it. Given splashing is more of a limited deck thing and can be too inconsistent in constructed, it's probably best to stick with two.
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3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I have played a bit with the RG list. The approach match up is very very difficult. Fumigate and Settle the Wreckage are terrible for us and we can t do anything against Approach of the Secund Sun. Nissa might solve some issues but Cast out can still deal with her. Maybe blue is the splash to go for Negate and why not Saheeli. The copy ability is strong with regisaur and Burning sun avatar or Glorybringer.
The only solution in naya colors is maybe Gideon s intervention naming approach... But it is WW.
The other option is Ixalan's Binding. Assuming they played the first that will stop them from being able to cast it a second time. The only problem is that their deck is basically just answers and a few creatures meant to stall out. Also this is starting to remind me of Guild Gates.
Heroic Intervention out of the side helps a bit with approach assuming we have mana open to use it. Are you running the energy list? I think it's possible to play the binding at the very least with 12 potential sources to do so. Blue might be another option.
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3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I have played a bit with the RG list. The approach match up is very very difficult. Fumigate and Settle the Wreckage are terrible for us and we can t do anything against Approach of the Secund Sun. Nissa might solve some issues but Cast out can still deal with her. Maybe blue is the splash to go for Negate and why not Saheeli. The copy ability is strong with regisaur and Burning sun avatar or Glorybringer.
The only solution in naya colors is maybe Gideon s intervention naming approach... But it is WW.
The other option is Ixalan's Binding. Assuming they played the first that will stop them from being able to cast it a second time. The only problem is that their deck is basically just answers and a few creatures meant to stall out.
Ixalan's Binding works only on permanents (or I might have missed something). No dinosaur deck in the top 32 scg Dallas this weekend. It is nit good if UW control is popular and at the moment it seems to be the case unfortunately. I don t know if Planeswalkers can do anything due to cast out (but immune to mass removal). And in the end the Carnage Tyrant is not as efficient as it should be. The problem is that what deals with it also deals with most of the treats of the deck. Either we diversify them or we counter their spells...
Maybe play white and gideon in the sideboard...
Oh right, I forgot about that. I guess against approach, I'm pretty sure it comes down to racing them to the end more than worrying about countering approach. As long as they can't get Fumigate or Settle the Wreckage off they are not going to be able to stop the dino deck from just killing them. My own deck has about 12 multi-color sources, so I could easily run something like Spell Pierce out of the side. The reason for spell pierce is that they have Censor in the main deck as a four of usually, so if you try Negate you'd have to hold up 3 sources instead of just 2.
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There are definitley ways in the 3 colors to beat Approach.
Gideon can lose to Settle and Cast Out, and opponent's SB creatures.
Duress can lose to topdeck and digging eot.
Negate can lose to counter backup.
Gideon is fragile and somewhat hard to cast on curve, but he beats down and counters multiple Approaches. Chandra and Nissa are - in the base colors - good enough to clock fast. A PW plan is certainly good against that deck, and Gideon can be too much for the opponent.
Duress + cast another spell + a safe attack in the same turn is a solid plan too. It's the plan Sultai Energy uses, but they also have counterspells.
Negate is interesting for the blow out it allows. Although it's doesn't give information on the opponent's hand, it's harder to play correctly and the opponent will bait for sure.
There are also other slots to consider in the SB for other MUs, so it's not just about which color is better against UW Approach.
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I actually got forced into using Chandra for my sideboard due to lacking the funds (and having common sense) not to buy into a third carnage tyrant at 30 USD. Given that deck doesn't run a lot of creatures I'd imagine swapping out some red removal for cheap counters and throwing extra walkers in can work too.
I don't think approach is going to last.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Still, the deck will be one to beat in the coming weeks anyway.
1- I know Dinos need to splash, now I want to give myself time to appreciate all variants. Besides the core of my deck with which I'm pretty confident and satisfied (all creatures and Dino-matter spells), I need to see what manabase is doable and what splash cards can fit in the main deck.
2- Cycling spells are good because the good ones want to be cycled away in certain MUs, but are great in others. But there's not a ton I might want in the main : Cast Out and Sweltering Suns (Dissenter's Deliverance seems too cute right now).
3- With 4 Stomps basically dead against Control, I don't want non recyclable-spot removal spells if I can do without.
Okay, are we talking "splashing" a color or making a "three color" deck? In general, if we're splashing for a third color the expectation is that it's probably a card that is powerful enough to make a difference and it will make that difference far enough into the game that we have a chance to cast it. That basically means anything with double mana symbols is out of the question for splashing a color. Right now, if we go three color and decide to go jund or something, than we pretty much lock ourselves out of using Chandra, Torch of Defiance since we have to deal with double green and likely double black or double white.
Also, another option if one is splashing black is Unlicensed Disintegration, which seems to have been scoured from peoples minds. Even without the 3 damage upside it's basically Murder, and that always saw play in the last standard.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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I honestly don't really care too much about Glorybringer. It can't do enough against Regisaur Alpha to matter and the regisaur gets out faster and hits sooner in the dino deck. Even if they kill the dorks, by that point you've already got enough lands to just cast the 4 drops outright, and in the mean time the only thing ramunap can do is mess around with Hazoret because we basically out value them on every play. Gruul dinosaurs is fine. If anything, I prefer the consistency of a two color mana base over going three color, especially in a format that has land hate. Not to mention in Naya builds I've seen the only multi-color non-land source is Drover of the mighty.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
4x Longtusk Cub
4x Servant of the Conduit
4x Drover of the Mighty
4x Rampaging Ferocidon
4x Ripjaw Raptor
4x Regisaur Alpha
4x Attune with Aether
4x Harnessed Lightning
2x Abrade
2x Savage Stomp
Planewakers: 2
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4x Sheltered Thicket
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Aether Hub
6x Forest
4x Mountain
Standard Decks:
Dinosaurs
Aggro Retired
Aggro Retired
Tokens Retired
Temur White Retired
Dragons Retired
Monsters Retired
Aggro Retired
Midrange Retired
Zombies Retired
Don't worry about running Rampaging Ferocidon yet. That card will have a place later if tokens become a thing. The best drops at three from the deck when I tested were in fact Rhonas The Indomitable and Deathgorge Scavenger. Also, we actually don't need to have as many three drops because the extra mana from the servant and drover let is go strait to 4 cmc turn 3 fairly reliably. I did originally like the idea of Ferocidon because of being a 3/3, but then realized there are so many 3 damage sources in the format that the difference between 2 and 3 toughness is negligible outside of limited.
On the subject with Chandra: Yes play her to your hearts content. She is just strait good value and gives reach even in dinosaurs. If the deck were trying three color (which I personally don't like at the moment due to the fixing we have...) then it might be questionable, but in two color having the sources by turn 3 to pop into a Chandra is extremely viable. Also, definitely run Bristling Hydra if you are going energy. You don't need a lot of them and the extra energy helps with Aether Hub. Not to mention they can be pumped to 5/4 and are very hard to get rid of. The only weakness the deck has is that once a dino is dead, it is dead. We don't really have a lot of ways to get creatures back that are main-deck worthy. Maybe a one of Nissa, Vital Force, but that is about it, and even I relegated her to the sideboard in my original build.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I like this list a lot. Maybe because it's similar to mine!
Anyway, Deathgorge Scavenger is really good. I also like Rampaging Ferocidon. Maybe I'll cut my Charioteers for Scavenger.
Basically, a list like this wants to do this:
Turn 2 mana dork
Turn 3 play 3 drop play Savage Stomp.
I like Otepec Huntmaster in these lists more than the other mana dorks -- turning into a 3/3 late game isn't that relevant when players are chaining Rogue Refiners.
Edit: GR lists have classically been weak to low to the ground red decks. You should pack 4x Magma Spray in your SB for week 1 (although maybe you want fodder for Scavenger; in which case you should play Shock). People playing are often lazy and want to just play board wipes -- but in reality the game is about playing the most impactful cards the fastest and getting them dead quickly. Either not deploying to the board to get max value out of your board wipe or wiping your own dinos is a bad time -- especially when your early drops represent mana.
Settle the Wreckage is absolutely problematic. In such MUs, the best way to answer the card is to play huge mana dumps. Rhonas requires an attack step and is Kessig Wolf Run. He's not bad but I'm hesitant. Repeating Barrage might be worth investigating. If you got to combat, you're good to go.
I understand why people like Carnage Tyrant but I don't think he's an effect we want a ton of until spot removal starts seeing a lot of Game 1 play. Game 2, when games get attritioney, he seems excellent but he can't win a board stall and is very easily chumped by Refiners, Virtuosos, and other idiots your opponent has lying around.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The Standout cards seem to be the Huntmaster, Ripjaw, and Savage Stomp. I'm constructing my deck to say "Do you have an answer to my turn 2 dork? Yes? Fine. No? Good Luck.
4 Drover of the Mighty
3 Deathgorge Scavenger
2 Rampaging Ferocidon
2 Ranging Raptors
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Ripjaw Raptor
3 Regisaur Alpha
1 Glorybringer
2 Carnage Tyrant
2 Commune with Dinosaurs
2 Magma Spray
3 Abrade
2 Savage Stomp
9 Forest
7 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sheltered Thicket
2 Shapers' Sanctuary
2 Magma Spray
2 Carnage Tyrant
2 Burning Sun's Avatar
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Savage Stomp
1 Heroic Intervention
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
CUBE: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/73964;jsessionid=2DE1F5FF41A24820A137448A2FD5CF8F
I LIKE DRAGONS!
Modern : RG Titan Shift RG | RG Revolt Zoo RG | RG Ponza RG | RGW Naya Burn RGW
Legacy : RG Belcher RG
Deathgorge Scavenger is a very interesting card. It has a lot of play -- it exiles creatures nuking Scarab God's ability and it nukes T. Gearhulk so they get cut off chaining Glimmers and Gearhulks.
It does have draw backs. Mainly, if you opponent is playing some number of Whirler Virtuoso or Rogue Refiner it looks really stupid.
I still really want the dream of a turn 1 Kinjalli's Caller as it would give you a 3-drop on turn 2 and even a 4-drop + 3-drop on turn 3 if you get another mana dork on turn 2, but I suppose the consensus is that adding white is just too difficult.
Another reason to play Deathgorge Scavenger. Don't bother play too many reactive cards.
I too dislike the energy package, but I can see the merits. I just think Commune with Dinosaurs is so much stronger than Attune with Aether that's it's a shame not to slam 4 copies. I don't know why some of you guys can't appreciate the power of that standard-legal Ancient Stirrings.
And that kind of list will constantly fail. Stomp costs G only if you have a Dino. By playing energy creatures instead of Ranging Raptors, and only 2 copies of Stomp, I don't agree that this list wants to do that specific play on turn 3.
I believe players miss something about Dinos here : Ripjaw Raptor and Ranging Raptors can be played around, and that's why you probably want 4x Savage Stomp. It's a proactive play that triggers Enrage. Otherwise Enrage feels like a bad punisher mechanic, i.e. sthg that has always been considered as trash in competitive Magic.
I might be wrong, but imho, either you go full Dinos and you hope it's good enough in the format to come, or you drop the idea and go build the best Energy deck you can instead. Something in between 2 strats, once again, has always been considered as bad deck building in competitive Magic, and that's what I fear to see here. A rare counter-example may be Winding Constrictor, but it actually synergizes with both counters and energy cards. I see no synergy between Dinos and Hydras here.
And finally, if it's a Monsters deck one wants to build, I don't understand why Glorybringer isn't in the slot of Regisaur Alpha to begin with. Has the dragon disappointed yet ?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Stomp is no gimmick, it's a synergistic removal spell like Harnessed Lightning is in an Energy deck. You want the 8 Enrage creatures to turn Stomp into a decent 2-for-1.
Well, you're supposed to use Stomp on Ranging Raptors, which suddenly becomes a 3/4 immune to these removal spells... or slow roll it and target Ripjaw Raptor instead. In those scenarios, Stomp is a 2-for-1.
All the red spells you mention can kill the Hydra while its etb trigger is on the stack. Also Fatal Push kills 4-drops overall, let's not forget that card. Other than that, we agree Hydra is still a great 4-drop.
What I'm saying is that there's a chance building a hybrid is fun and all, but not competitive enough, and a worse archetype than straight Dinos or straight Energy. I don't see why Energy should bring Dinos, and why Dinos should dilute their synergies. It's tempting because colors match, but I'm afraid it doesn't go further.
I'm more inclined to splash a third color that is needed for Dinos, like black that offers Duress, Fatal Push, Doomfall and Vraska, Relic Seeker, and a nice Dragonskull Summit that helps the mana better than blue.
You keep saying it is weaker yet in testing it comes out stronger. I'm not really sure what else to say on this, I've had great success using Attune with Aether and one copy of Commune with Dinosaurs because the majority of the time, attune with Aether is the better early game draw than the Commune with Dinosaurs. It doesn't matter if all red spells can kill Bristling Hydra because the reality is that they can't actually kill hydra if you play it intelligently. If they try to nuke it, that is when to use the ability. Also, I really like Glorybringer in the mirror against other decks using Regisaur Alpha. It just does what I want in those match ups, which is kill the dino lord and fly over the other threats. Combining that package with sideboard options like Sweltering Suns (or Fiery Cannonade), abrade, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and Nissa, Vital Force and the resulting deck has some alternatives against extremely removal heavy decks like control.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
In your testing maybe.
If the hybrid approach is better than all-in Energy, I'll be stunned. You're implying that Deathgorge Scavenger + Regisaur Alpha is a better package than Whirler Virtuoso / Rogue Refiner + Glorybringer in GRx E. Would you imply the same for Rishkar, Peema Renegade + Verdurous Gearhulk in BGx E ? (I can sum up lists if you don't see what I mean)
Bristling Hydra can surely be played intelligently, but the ideal is to get those 3 E counters before Hydra etb as consistently as possible, which is why 3-drops that provide E are so satisfying. Later in the game, I believe you want to go over the top and need those extra E counters.
I am curious to see where your list is at this point.
On a side note, I'm very confident with my 4 6-drops in the main. I feel like some players don't even test them because they feel those'll get stuck in hand, which is absolutely not what happens. So they stop their deckbuilding at 5 cmc, and that may be why they consider there's not enough Dinosaurs, and then splash a third color, Energy stuff, or subpar fillers.
Here's what I'm currently playing :
4 Regisaur Alpha
4 Ripjaw Raptor
4 Ranging Raptors
4 Deathgorge Scavenger
4 Drover of the Mighty
4 Savage Stomp
2 Abrade
2 Lightning Strike
4 Commune With Dinosaurs
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Rootbound Crag
5 Forest
3 Mountain
- The manabase is good, it happened only once that I missed a 3rd source for an Avatar on curve. Since it can happen though, maybe an extra should be added. I had to cut the 2 Hashep Oasis, but I never used more than one in the late game, and a very few times. I think deserts are completely unecessary.
- I want to run the 2 Fatal Push in the main, it's probably doable. Now do I cut the Abrades or the Strikes, impossible to define since there's no metagame yet.
- Chandra could move to the SB (for 2 Fatal Push, not cutting the other removal spells), and 2 Carnage Tyrant could come in (-2 Avatars), but once again it's all meta dependant.
1 Cartouche of Ambition
2 Carnage Tyrant
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Doomfall
3 Duress
2 Sweltering Suns
- I have 6 easy cuts for aggro, 8 for control, and undefined for the rest.
- No spells allowed.
- the split Duress / Doomfall is here to anticipate Gods. We'll see.
- Vraska might be worse than Nissa, but UW Approach going down to 1 life is tempting. Also it's the Appetite for the Unnatural/ Crushing Canopy potential slot.
- Spyglass is probably good enough to be worth 2 copies, but 1 could be enough. Meta dependant.
- A second copy of Cartouche of Ambition could be better in a very aggressive environment. It plays well with Stomp, can gain life multiple times, can trigger a race vs aggro, and can break the fatties mirrors. This slot fights with other subpar cards I don't like much:
* Ravenous Daggertooth, unreliable with Ahn-Crop Crasher, Earthershaker Khenra, Heart of Kiran, and Menace creatures who can choose to assign all damage on the 2nd blocker instead.
* Life Goes On doesn't give the chance to get rid of a creature, especially Rampaging Ferocidon. That dino is a pain.
* Battle at the Bridge, too expensive, too reactive, and only a one-shot.
I want to build the strongest deck on theme with what cards we do have and migrate later to the full block deck.
Right now I think the most competitive deck I got is blue white flying men.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Now I'm wondering that if Dinosaurs were to be a thing, is it preferable to go all in on Dinosaurs or splash other stuff? Some of the recent 5-0 finishes on MTGO went all in on Dinosaurs whereas others splashed other stuff like Rhonas, Glorybringer, and even Walking Ballista.
My opinion on spashing stuff is that since this is a very value oriented deck (pick strong cards at each tier instead of worrying about a lot of synergy), it's pretty flexible on how one goes about configuring it. The only major synergies the deck has are between the human component at the low CMC and the dinosaur tribal spells like Savage Stomp and Commune with Dinosaurs.
As for why RG is the preferred route right now, it's because the mana issue is hard to deal with and the payoff isn't there to make struggling with it worthwhile. I feel safer just splashing for white in order to play Cast Out or Ixalan's Binding, but that is about it. Given splashing is more of a limited deck thing and can be too inconsistent in constructed, it's probably best to stick with two.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The other option is Ixalan's Binding. Assuming they played the first that will stop them from being able to cast it a second time. The only problem is that their deck is basically just answers and a few creatures meant to stall out. Also this is starting to remind me of Guild Gates.
Heroic Intervention out of the side helps a bit with approach assuming we have mana open to use it. Are you running the energy list? I think it's possible to play the binding at the very least with 12 potential sources to do so. Blue might be another option.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Oh right, I forgot about that. I guess against approach, I'm pretty sure it comes down to racing them to the end more than worrying about countering approach. As long as they can't get Fumigate or Settle the Wreckage off they are not going to be able to stop the dino deck from just killing them. My own deck has about 12 multi-color sources, so I could easily run something like Spell Pierce out of the side. The reason for spell pierce is that they have Censor in the main deck as a four of usually, so if you try Negate you'd have to hold up 3 sources instead of just 2.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Gideon can lose to Settle and Cast Out, and opponent's SB creatures.
Duress can lose to topdeck and digging eot.
Negate can lose to counter backup.
Gideon is fragile and somewhat hard to cast on curve, but he beats down and counters multiple Approaches. Chandra and Nissa are - in the base colors - good enough to clock fast. A PW plan is certainly good against that deck, and Gideon can be too much for the opponent.
Duress + cast another spell + a safe attack in the same turn is a solid plan too. It's the plan Sultai Energy uses, but they also have counterspells.
Negate is interesting for the blow out it allows. Although it's doesn't give information on the opponent's hand, it's harder to play correctly and the opponent will bait for sure.
There are also other slots to consider in the SB for other MUs, so it's not just about which color is better against UW Approach.
I don't think approach is going to last.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
1- I know Dinos need to splash, now I want to give myself time to appreciate all variants. Besides the core of my deck with which I'm pretty confident and satisfied (all creatures and Dino-matter spells), I need to see what manabase is doable and what splash cards can fit in the main deck.
2- Cycling spells are good because the good ones want to be cycled away in certain MUs, but are great in others. But there's not a ton I might want in the main : Cast Out and Sweltering Suns (Dissenter's Deliverance seems too cute right now).
3- With 4 Stomps basically dead against Control, I don't want non recyclable-spot removal spells if I can do without.
The cards I can see in the main deck are :
- in White : MD 2x Cast Out, 2x Prepare // Fight, 2x Gideon of the Trials; SB Settle the Wreckage, Ixalan's Binding, Gideon's Intervention, Fragmentize, Thopter Arrest.
- in Black : MD 2x Duress; SB Doomfall, Cartouche of Ambition, Vraska, Relic Seeker, Cut // Ribbons, Fatal Push, more Duress.
- in Blue : MD 2x Spell Pierce, SB Negate, Entrancing Melody.
What am I missing in the SB options ?
Also, another option if one is splashing black is Unlicensed Disintegration, which seems to have been scoured from peoples minds. Even without the 3 damage upside it's basically Murder, and that always saw play in the last standard.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!