I'm playing Sultai without Hostage Takers tonight. I'm a little hesitant about playing 3 colors. Any tips? Advice on which hands to mulligan in regards to mana and also a look at my mana base is especially wanted.
I'm playing 23 lands with only 3 attune. Also, I only own 2 walking ballista. Thoughts on trying to fit in Rhonas the Indomitable here?
So I am very recently on the Sultai energy plan. I was doing some goldfishing earlier today and ran into a sequencing conundrum. Here's the situation:
Starting hand contains a couple lands, Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, Longtusk Cub and some other stuff that doesn't use or generate energy.
I played out Siphoner on turn 2 (1 energy), attacked with it on turn 3 (2 energy) and played Cub. I now have two creatures on board competing for the same resource.
What would be the best decision on turn 4? Use the energy to draw off Siphoner, or hold it to pump Cub? (Still don't have another energy producer.)
I'm sure there's a lot of situational considerations here, so I guess what I should ask is: what would be the best choice in this situation vs RR? Temur? U/x control? Or did I make a mistake earlier in the game with my choice of which creature to cast first and if I should have cast the second at all? (And if so, which should be the first play against the "big 3"?)
It is complex and I can't provide a definitive answer. In general, I would play Cub first if I think there is a chance to get it snowballing. Once they are both out, I prefer to draw cards unless the counter is the difference between being able to attack and not. I try to avoid playing Siphoner when I won't be able to draw the next turn.
I'm playing Sultai without Hostage Takers tonight. I'm a little hesitant about playing 3 colors. Any tips? Advice on which hands to mulligan in regards to mana and also a look at my mana base is especially wanted.
I'm playing 23 lands with only 3 attune. Also, I only own 2 walking ballista. Thoughts on trying to fit in Rhonas the Indomitable here?
has anyone tried to remove the energy package in favor of new merfolks and river herald's boon ?
the boon is insane with winding constrictor, 1G instant speed that give 4 +1/+1 counter? i think its the next big thing in standard.
not to mention the green merfolk are pretty good on their own, merfolk branchwalker is a solid creature, vineshaper mystic can be considered a non legendary rishkar. also we got metallic mimic to boost the merfolks.
this is just a thought as ixalan is just coming out, i am very sure that the next set will feature more merfolk and even black merfolk
1) UB Control
2) Temur Energy
3) UW Approachorlds
4) GPG
5) Ramunap Red
It depends on your deck, of course, but the OP has is a link to a post-Worlds article by Andrew Jessup with sideboarding suggestions. The link is at the bottom in the Articles, Videos, Etc section.
has anyone tried to remove the energy package in favor of new merfolks and river herald's boon ?
the boon is insane with winding constrictor, 1G instant speed that give 4 +1/+1 counter? i think its the next big thing in standard.
not to mention the green merfolk are pretty good on their own, merfolk branchwalker is a solid creature, vineshaper mystic can be considered a non legendary rishkar. also we got metallic mimic to boost the merfolks.
this is just a thought as ixalan is just coming out, i am very sure that the next set will feature more merfolk and even black merfolk
I've thought about it. I'd love to see what you come up with. Craig Wescoe did a thing with BG Explore and Constrictor that has some Merfolk that might have some ideas you could use. Also linked in the bottom of the OP of this thread. The Boon may seem good, but how much better is it than Lead by Example, which saw little to no play?
has anyone tried to remove the energy package in favor of new merfolks and river herald's boon ?
the boon is insane with winding constrictor, 1G instant speed that give 4 +1/+1 counter? i think its the next big thing in standard.
not to mention the green merfolk are pretty good on their own, merfolk branchwalker is a solid creature, vineshaper mystic can be considered a non legendary rishkar. also we got metallic mimic to boost the merfolks.
this is just a thought as ixalan is just coming out, i am very sure that the next set will feature more merfolk and even black merfolk
I forgot that Metallic Mimic could be used as a Merfolk, plus it has good synergy with constrictor. You forgot to mention Herald of Secret streams, which looks like it could be a powerhouse if we can generate enough early counter bearing creatures.
Merolk branchwalker is a solid creature, I don't like that we might not get the counter though. On the other hand, mana fixing and card advantage is something this deck could use more of.
I don't think that going Merfolk is a good idea right now. I could be wrong, but the energy package and the hostage taker package are really strong; it would be surprising if Merfolk could out perform those decks.
When the next set is released you could very well be in business for a Merfolk deck. I think the deck could really use a 1 drop creature that has a counter or can get a counter, or simply be a 2/1 merfolk. With all the 2 drop merfolk plus other creatures that provide counters, the deck could get even faster and win turn 4/5 if you stick a Herald of secret stream on a board full of creatures with counters.
Edit: I just read Kumena's Speaker correctly for the first time. It becomes a 2/2 whether you control an Island or another Merfolk. That's a pretty strong 1 drop for tribal. Another thing that would push Merfolk over the edge would be a 2 or 3 cost lord that pumps merfolk. It would function as a pseudo constrictor 5-8, making the deck VERY consistent.
I like the B/G energy shell, however having only access to Fatal Push as removal seems really bad in the main. I want to work on a JUND core and then splash for the blue for probably only The Scarab God and maybe few Hostage Takers.
Thoughts? Anyone already doing this for lands and have a good set up that works for you?
Here is the land I am currently in testing with. I am going with the core JUND build with splash for blue(currently only for 1 or 2 copies of The Scarab God.
Went 2nd in a 42-man pptq. Played a sub-optimal sultai list with 2x Takers, 1x Scarab God amd 1x Confiscation Coup/ 1x Bristling Hydra for the other 2x Taker slots.
Lost to an undefeated BR aggro list, the one that was on CFB. Really hard match. Funny thing is, i won UB control in the quarter n semis.
Just for fun I took lajube's modular nonsense to a standard showdown. It was really fun! It was competitive too. I beat a Bant Tokens deck that used Growing Rites and Tishana and a brew before losing to Ramunap Red in two close games.
what are people's thoughts on thaumatic compass? i was playing it on mtgo with uw approach and it seems good. it's not legendary when it flips and helps stop glorybringer. plus, helps us with our lands if we have nothing to do. just curious.
what are people's thoughts on thaumatic compass? i was playing it on mtgo with uw approach and it seems good. it's not legendary when it flips and helps stop glorybringer. plus, helps us with our lands if we have nothing to do. just curious.
You don't want to use the transformed land VS Glorybringer. He can still exert and you are untapping it for him.
Thx Hoser. Starting to think that we don't need the full playset of takers..
I don't like Hostage Taker against Ramunap Red (slow and vulnerable, worse than Bristling Hydra) or Control (no opposing targets). It's not great against tokens, although sniping tokens isn't terrible. Worlds and Nationals point to it not being fantastic either.
So I am inclined to agree. I could even see an argument for it as a sideboard card against midrange decks. Even then, it kind of requires Blossoming Defense and the slots add up quickly.
Thx Hoser. Starting to think that we don't need the full playset of takers..
I don't like Hostage Taker against Ramunap Red (slow and vulnerable, worse than Bristling Hydra) or Control (no opposing targets). It's not great against tokens, although sniping tokens isn't terrible. Worlds and Nationals point to it not being fantastic either.
So I am inclined to agree. I could even see an argument for it as a sideboard card against midrange decks. Even then, it kind of requires Blossoming Defense and the slots add up quickly.
So here's the dilemma, as I see it. I feel like my particular build of the deck is competitive, at least in the meta that I played in on week 1. I didn't face any UB Control, but my experience against Control is 50/50 (bad against Approach, reasonable against other forms of Control). However, my two match-ups against the Hostage Taker iteration were horribly skewed in their favor. That's only 5 games, but 1/5 is not a great record. So if the Sultai energy build continues on its path without Hostage Taker, whatever that iteration looks like (with or without Blossoming Defense, with or without Bristling Hydra, 0 - 2 Rhonas, 0-2 Scarab God, etc), I think it's most likely vulnerable to Hostage Taker. That's because the tempo blow out is staggering, and our creatures play into the other deck's strategy, contributing to the tempo swing.
FWIW, I think Rhonas is a must going forward. If we don't have some form of evasion, Tokens.dec can just wreck us. Sure, we can put up huge bodies, but if they never get through, the tokens will overrun us. Rhonas is also difficult for UB Control, as they have to have Vraska's Contempt if he resolves (or manage to keep every other creature off the board). Me personally, I'm thinking of running two Hostage Taker main and 2-3 Blossoming Defense. It gives us the opportunity for the tempo blow out with defense up, but it's not the strategy of the deck. It doesn't take up as many slots in the 75 overall. Defense is a good card regardless, gets better with Hostage Taker, and will help in a lot of match-ups.
...
So here's the dilemma, as I see it. I feel like my particular build of the deck is competitive, at least in the meta that I played in on week 1. I didn't face any UB Control, but my experience against Control is 50/50 (bad against Approach, reasonable against other forms of Control). However, my two match-ups against the Hostage Taker iteration were horribly skewed in their favor. That's only 5 games, but 1/5 is not a great record. So if the Sultai energy build continues on its path without Hostage Taker, whatever that iteration looks like (with or without Blossoming Defense, with or without Bristling Hydra, 0 - 2 Rhonas, 0-2 Scarab God, etc), I think it's most likely vulnerable to Hostage Taker. That's because the tempo blow out is staggering, and our creatures play into the other deck's strategy, contributing to the tempo swing.
FWIW, I think Rhonas is a must going forward. If we don't have some form of evasion, Tokens.dec can just wreck us. Sure, we can put up huge bodies, but if they never get through, the tokens will overrun us. Rhonas is also difficult for UB Control, as they have to have Vraska's Contempt if he resolves (or manage to keep every other creature off the board). Me personally, I'm thinking of running two Hostage Taker main and 2-3 Blossoming Defense. It gives us the opportunity for the tempo blow out with defense up, but it's not the strategy of the deck. It doesn't take up as many slots in the 75 overall. Defense is a good card regardless, gets better with Hostage Taker, and will help in a lot of match-ups.
I want to understand clearly what you're saying, as I think you have more reps than I do. Sam suggested and I posited that Hostage Taker is a midrange mirror breaker, very similarly to The Scarab God, but worse against control and Aggro. It is clearly not effective against Bristling Hydra and Carnage Tyrant, however.
What I don't understand is whether Hostage Taker is good against Temur. People must be playing Hostage Taker in testing for Worlds and in Nationals. Are the Hostage Taker decks holding their own against Temur and falling to control and aggro? Or are Hostage Taker decks a dog to Temur, Aggro and Control?
Temur is more of a Good stuff deck. We are more of a synergy deck. Every good stuff card we slot in makes Constrictor worse: The Scarab God, Hostage Taker, Vraska, Rhonas, Rhazzercom's Chandra and Glorybringer. Even Rogue Refiner is more good stuff and not terribly synergistic with Constrictor. We have two advantages versus Temur, IMO: Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, no filler Servants. Their advantages are the strong R cards, the extra mana and the flexibility that comes with not needing to maintain synergy.
If we agree on that, then we can talk about solutions. I see the following:
Maindeck the full four Hostage Taker. Nationals and Worlds suggest this is a bad idea
Hedge on Hostage Taker with maybe some main and some in the sideboard. The question about the Temur matchup seems relevant
If we expect Hostage Taker decks and want to fight them, sideboard against them.
Let control, Aggro and maybe Temur knock out Hostage Taker decks
Transformational sideboard: Constrictor synergy main and good stuff side. Would Constrictor get sided out? Could be vice versa, I suppose.
I am currently on 2, but I don't know if it's correct.
@DRay - I liked your week one deck and largely copied it. It didn't do as well as I would have liked for me either. I now believe that the card we both slept on was Siphoner. Did the Jessups getting ahead on cards early allow them to exploit Hostage Taker late? It will take a lot to pry the Siphoners out of my deck.
There was 1 ramunap, 1 br aggro, 2 ub control, 1 temur and 3 sultai in my top8. I met a temur in rd5 and hostage taker on glorybringer w a defense up, was a huge tempo swing.
I think 2 takers mb should be the way to go imo. Cos players are now trying to play around taker and sometimes are prepared for it
To anyone that plays the Sultai list, do you feel ok with only 4 removal spells? It feels extremely bad for me. Been brewing with JUND splashing blue for scarab god.
To anyone that plays the Sultai list, do you feel ok with only 4 removal spells? It feels extremely bad for me. Been brewing with JUND splashing blue for scarab god.
I think if ur in Jund, u definitely need Lightning Strike and drop Blossoming Defense.
I'm playing 23 lands with only 3 attune. Also, I only own 2 walking ballista. Thoughts on trying to fit in Rhonas the Indomitable here?
4x Winding Constrictor
4x Glint-sleeve Siphoner
4x Longtusk Cub
2x Walking Ballista
4x Rogue Refiner
2x Rishkar, Peema Renegade
4x Bristling Hydra
1x Verdurous gearhulk
2x The Scarab God
3x Attune with Aether
4x Fatal Push
2x Essence Scatter
1x Vraska's Contempt
land 23
4x Aether Hub
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Botanical Sanctum
1x Woodland Stream
2x fetid pools
1x Drowned Catacomb
4x forest
2x swamp
1x Island
It is complex and I can't provide a definitive answer. In general, I would play Cub first if I think there is a chance to get it snowballing. Once they are both out, I prefer to draw cards unless the counter is the difference between being able to attack and not. I try to avoid playing Siphoner when I won't be able to draw the next turn.
It seems good. I might take out a Siphoner a Push or an Essence Scatter for a Rhonas.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
1) UB Control
2) Temur Energy
3) UW Approach
4) GPG
5) Ramunap Red
the boon is insane with winding constrictor, 1G instant speed that give 4 +1/+1 counter? i think its the next big thing in standard.
not to mention the green merfolk are pretty good on their own, merfolk branchwalker is a solid creature, vineshaper mystic can be considered a non legendary rishkar. also we got metallic mimic to boost the merfolks.
this is just a thought as ixalan is just coming out, i am very sure that the next set will feature more merfolk and even black merfolk
It depends on your deck, of course, but the OP has is a link to a post-Worlds article by Andrew Jessup with sideboarding suggestions. The link is at the bottom in the Articles, Videos, Etc section.
I've thought about it. I'd love to see what you come up with. Craig Wescoe did a thing with BG Explore and Constrictor that has some Merfolk that might have some ideas you could use. Also linked in the bottom of the OP of this thread. The Boon may seem good, but how much better is it than Lead by Example, which saw little to no play?
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I forgot that Metallic Mimic could be used as a Merfolk, plus it has good synergy with constrictor. You forgot to mention Herald of Secret streams, which looks like it could be a powerhouse if we can generate enough early counter bearing creatures.
Merolk branchwalker is a solid creature, I don't like that we might not get the counter though. On the other hand, mana fixing and card advantage is something this deck could use more of.
I don't think that going Merfolk is a good idea right now. I could be wrong, but the energy package and the hostage taker package are really strong; it would be surprising if Merfolk could out perform those decks.
When the next set is released you could very well be in business for a Merfolk deck. I think the deck could really use a 1 drop creature that has a counter or can get a counter, or simply be a 2/1 merfolk. With all the 2 drop merfolk plus other creatures that provide counters, the deck could get even faster and win turn 4/5 if you stick a Herald of secret stream on a board full of creatures with counters.
Edit: I just read Kumena's Speaker correctly for the first time. It becomes a 2/2 whether you control an Island or another Merfolk. That's a pretty strong 1 drop for tribal. Another thing that would push Merfolk over the edge would be a 2 or 3 cost lord that pumps merfolk. It would function as a pseudo constrictor 5-8, making the deck VERY consistent.
Thoughts? Anyone already doing this for lands and have a good set up that works for you?
22 Lands
10 Lands produce Black(+4 Aether Hubs)
10 Lands produce Green(+4 Aether Hubs)
11 Lands produce Red(+4 Aether Hubs)
1 Land produce Blue(+4 Aether Hubs)
Let the testing begin!
Lost to an undefeated BR aggro list, the one that was on CFB. Really hard match. Funny thing is, i won UB control in the quarter n semis.
Just for fun I took lajube's modular nonsense to a standard showdown. It was really fun! It was competitive too. I beat a Bant Tokens deck that used Growing Rites and Tishana and a brew before losing to Ramunap Red in two close games.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
You don't want to use the transformed land VS Glorybringer. He can still exert and you are untapping it for him.
So I am inclined to agree. I could even see an argument for it as a sideboard card against midrange decks. Even then, it kind of requires Blossoming Defense and the slots add up quickly.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
So here's the dilemma, as I see it. I feel like my particular build of the deck is competitive, at least in the meta that I played in on week 1. I didn't face any UB Control, but my experience against Control is 50/50 (bad against Approach, reasonable against other forms of Control). However, my two match-ups against the Hostage Taker iteration were horribly skewed in their favor. That's only 5 games, but 1/5 is not a great record. So if the Sultai energy build continues on its path without Hostage Taker, whatever that iteration looks like (with or without Blossoming Defense, with or without Bristling Hydra, 0 - 2 Rhonas, 0-2 Scarab God, etc), I think it's most likely vulnerable to Hostage Taker. That's because the tempo blow out is staggering, and our creatures play into the other deck's strategy, contributing to the tempo swing.
FWIW, I think Rhonas is a must going forward. If we don't have some form of evasion, Tokens.dec can just wreck us. Sure, we can put up huge bodies, but if they never get through, the tokens will overrun us. Rhonas is also difficult for UB Control, as they have to have Vraska's Contempt if he resolves (or manage to keep every other creature off the board). Me personally, I'm thinking of running two Hostage Taker main and 2-3 Blossoming Defense. It gives us the opportunity for the tempo blow out with defense up, but it's not the strategy of the deck. It doesn't take up as many slots in the 75 overall. Defense is a good card regardless, gets better with Hostage Taker, and will help in a lot of match-ups.
In terms of countermagic, I was originally running Jace's Defeat, but changed to Spell Pierce for SCG Dallas. I'm considering running Negate instead, but what about Supreme Will? I know it's not a hard counter, but it can stop everything we need it to stop (Fumigate, Settle the Wreckage, Torrential Gearhulk, etc.) and do double duty for card selection.
What I don't understand is whether Hostage Taker is good against Temur. People must be playing Hostage Taker in testing for Worlds and in Nationals. Are the Hostage Taker decks holding their own against Temur and falling to control and aggro? Or are Hostage Taker decks a dog to Temur, Aggro and Control?
Temur is more of a Good stuff deck. We are more of a synergy deck. Every good stuff card we slot in makes Constrictor worse: The Scarab God, Hostage Taker, Vraska, Rhonas, Rhazzercom's Chandra and Glorybringer. Even Rogue Refiner is more good stuff and not terribly synergistic with Constrictor. We have two advantages versus Temur, IMO: Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, no filler Servants. Their advantages are the strong R cards, the extra mana and the flexibility that comes with not needing to maintain synergy.
If we agree on that, then we can talk about solutions. I see the following:
@DRay - I liked your week one deck and largely copied it. It didn't do as well as I would have liked for me either. I now believe that the card we both slept on was Siphoner. Did the Jessups getting ahead on cards early allow them to exploit Hostage Taker late? It will take a lot to pry the Siphoners out of my deck.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
I think 2 takers mb should be the way to go imo. Cos players are now trying to play around taker and sometimes are prepared for it
Which Brazilian list?
http://bazardebagda.com.br/?view=ecom/blog/viewPost&fid=7722
it's like #6 or 7
To anyone that plays the Sultai list, do you feel ok with only 4 removal spells? It feels extremely bad for me. Been brewing with JUND splashing blue for scarab god.
1 Drowned Catacomb
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Forest
1 Island
2 Fetid Pools
4 Aether Hub
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Swamp
Creatures (25)
4 Winding Constrictor
4 Longtusk Cub
2 Bristling Hydra
3 The Scarab God
4 Rogue Refiner
2 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
3 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
3 Hostage Taker
3 Blossoming Defense
2 Vraska's Contempt
4 Fatal Push
4 Attune with Aether
2 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1 Rhonas, the Indomitable
3 Cartouche of Ambition
3 Aether Meltdown
1 Confiscation Coup
4 Negate
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
200: 07/17/06 @21:03 PST
500: 05/05/07 @11:48 PST
666: 08/27/07 @11:36 PST
777: 01/28/08 @20:22 PST
800: 04/07/08 @19:18 PST
888: 08/08/08 @16:12 PST
900: 08/12/08 @16:57 PST
1000:12/22/08 @ 18:01 PST
MTGS Legacy Tournament #5 Semi-finalist.
MTGS Legacy Tournament #6 Top 8.
I think if ur in Jund, u definitely need Lightning Strike and drop Blossoming Defense.
Has anyone tried it out?
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.