Hi friends, it's my first time posing here, so feel free to tear it apart.
If there is on ongoing thread discussing similar ideas, I apologize for not finding it.
I am fairly new, however a common consensus that I have picked up on as I frequent my FNM and listen to more experienced players discuss cards like Unburden, and to a lesser extent cards like Torment of Hailfire, is that hand hatred and cards that give your opponent a choice are bad.
First, I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on hand hate. If anyone could give me an example of when the mechanic has been strong? Perhaps an article that explains the best timings to make a player discard a card? If you don't have any resources like that to share, then I would be more than thrilled to just learn from your collective experience as well.
Thanks in advance! On to the deck. It is very simple.
The goal is to lock down the board and hand of the opposing player. Hopefully, very little gets played, and even less gets to remain on the board.
Control the game with the most proactive forms of hand hate.
Drain your opponent in 3 life increments. It's no secret what consequence players will choose when faced with the "Torment" cards. (Ex.Torment of Scarabs) Most players place the highest priority on Board State, then Hand, then Life.
My goal is to just to help them make the decision they were already going to make : )
By removing their hand and board from the equation.
I am trying my best to pick my cards to deal with the threats I think my opponents might want to play. It can be hard to choose between cards like Transgress the Mind and Lay Bare the Heart... Advice?
I think that with the right side board, we could make the control offerings flexible enough to deal with the various styles of decks in standard. For example against decks with a lot of creatures, we probably want 4 Fatal Push to go with our Harsh Scrutiny. But in a control match-up those cards could become almost completely dead in your hand.
Heh, I know you guys know how to side board, probably better than I do. I guess I'm more typing it out for my benefit.
So can you guys help me make the side board?
Do you guys think that it is a good idea to bring in a card like The Scarab God when playing against decks that give you lots of targets to loot out of their graveyard?
A thing that I've noted
This deck is probably twice as good going first, on the play... Similar to most control decks? Right?
Cards like Harsh Scrutiny and Lay Bare the Heart perform much better if you take your turn first.
But I think it's recoverable on the draw, so on to the ideation! How bad is it? Feel free to give your honest opinion.
The deck is good only if your opponent has a slow deck and you have all your discards, but one good top deck could ruin you. Otherwise the deck is bad because:
- Your opponent could be playing aggro where he puts down his threats before you can discard them.
- Your discards make very bad top decks when you need a kill spell or win con.
- Your discards are dead cards in hand if your opponent has no cards in hand. Again, all they need is to play by top decking what they need.
Long story short, you need to find a good reason WHY you are discarding their cards while finding a wincon to go with it. Cards like Waste Not or The Rack are not standard legal, so there's no good reason to go with the strategy. Another disadvantage is there are some cards and decks that don't mind discarding, like madness cards or Delirium decks.
Thank you for taking the time to respond and introduce me to some of the historically good cards that incorporate this concept. I'll research how people built around those.
I'd like to talk about your concerns. I've had them too.
In order,
The deck is good only if your opponent has a slow deck and you have all your discards
I agree, an opening hand with a copy of Harsh Scrutiny and Lay Bare the Heart is infinitely better than drawing into these cards later on. That's why I only have 8 copies of specifically this type of effect. drawing into it isn't amazing.
one good top deck could ruin you
If we get to that point, I think it's a huge win. I don't expect to actually empty my opponents hand until later in the game. Up until then, the targeted discarding is mostly to deal with the threats that will hurt me the most / can't be dealt with by my removal. If they are needing to top deck to get by, I think I've probably got them.
aggro
I guess, like you, this is my biggest concern. I feel like my removal should be able to respond quickly enough to deal with most threats. But will it actually? I guess I don't know... It feels like, unless their deck is straight up "Red Deck Wins" Haste creatures for days, that I might have a chance. In order to win, I have to two for one with Yahenni's or Bontu's.
Long story short, you need to find a good reason WHY you are discarding their cards while finding a wincon to go with it.
This is my goal for Torment of Scarabs and Torment of Hailfire. They are meant to be my reason. even just a 5 mana Torment of Hailfire on a card-less opponent seems very strong to me. Almost every card in my deck, goes one for one with a card in my opponents deck. Which means games should stall out by default, correct? Is that the right way to think about it? And if the game stalls, I think between Ob Nixilis Reignited and the torment cards, I should have a decent shot against a lot of decks.
If I can resolve a Torment of Scarabs, it really feels like a win-con by itself to me at least.
madness cards or Delirium decks
Yeah that is a tragic concept. I would say that I think those decks generally want to discard the "right" cards, and not just any card. I don't see much madness being played tbh. As for delirium. I think those decks are slow enough that my removal can respond to it as it comes. Might be a counter though. Which is ok for a deck to have.
One general point. Most decks do not run this much "destroy target creature". Because I have very little desire to establish a board state of my own. I think a card like Bontu's Last Reckoning, even with all of it's drawbacks, actually performs it's job really well.
I guess I could really only back up my ideas by testing the deck, which I will most likely do this next week... Did you spot any obvious improvements to be made? Or think of any important side board cards?
You only have four mediocre win cons and no card draw. You can only stall for so long before your opponent recovers from all the disarding before they recover and wreck face. Mardu Vehicles for example, has Heart of Kiran which you don't have anything that can interact with it. Torment of Venom really needs to be Fatal Push. You need some Hour of Glory. Torment of Scarabs is painfully slow and your opponent will gladly take 3 life than sacrifice their win con that can possibly beat you much faster than anything else can, not to mention it's terrible against aggro.
Four mediocre win cons
Painfully slow
Terrible against aggro
Thanks for being honest, that's why I'm here.
I agree Heart of Kiran truly does demand Fatal Push. And Fatal Push is almost never bad to have main deck... Probably just against u/r control does it kind of stay dead in your hand. (There is a lot of that at my lgs). But yeah, I think you are right. Fatal Push gets moved to main. Torment of Venom moves to side.
Hour of Glory seems like a great option. Maybe I'll have it main. In place of Yahenni's Expertise. Yeah that seems good. I can bring Yahenni's back in if they are running a really wide board. At the same time though. I think Yahenni's is probably important to defeating U/W Monument (hits through Selfless Spirit ). Which almost half my store was running yesterday.
Alright man, thanks for the tips. As for "painfully slow", and "four mediocre win conditions". Similar statements could probably be made about a lot of control decks. Maybe without the similar card draw that those decks possess, I'll just run out of answers too quickly... Well, we will see. I'll test it out this week. Thanks again.
It's not amazing by any means, but it can win a lot of games for FNM level.
Thought-Knot Seer plays well into your theme and brings along Reality Smasher with him. Not only is it another win con, Smasher kinda goes with the discard theme if they try to remove it. The main thing to do is to either play all your removals and then your win cons, or all your discard then your win cons.
Pretty straight forward, but one thing to note is how Gifted Aetherborn comes in almost all the time. It trades with everything and gains life, but the main reason is most opponents will be siding out their removal, making your Aetherborns that much better.
Hey thanks a lot! I'll definitely use a lot of this. That list really is much better. I didn't even realize that black had instant speed draw. Yep, I like it a lot. Solid side boarding strategy. Thanks for everything, you da man.
I'll report back here at the end of the week to talk about how it did.
Dread Wanderer: Recurring threat. Win Con.
Dreamstealer: Beast if it hits. "Recurring" threat.
Seer: Beef body. Great ability.
Mummy: Early discard annoyance. Pitches lands.
Scrutiny: Good but not good enough to run more than 2 imo.
Lay Bare: Hits everything.
Brutality: The complete disruption, removal, and land pitch outlet.
Doomfall: May not end up being good enough for effect? +1 Scrutiny +1 Dreamstealer?
Push: Core removal.
Grasp: Core removal. Will probably be reprinted.
Reckoning: A given.
Never/Return: PW Hate.
Resolve: Need some draw. Instant speed and land pitch.
Hostile Desert: Win Con.
Also considered 1 Ghoulsteed as a win con lol. Pitches lands late game. Doesn't seem terrible.
Other considerations: Asylum Visitor, Hailfire, Midnight Oil. Ammit
Check this out.
I know its not mono black but imo mono black doesnt have enough.
Ive been testing the trial/cartouche package because the basic idea is that all your cards need to be worth at the very least one of your opponents cards.
Playing the trials early to keep the board clear and dropping a cartouche on a bristling hydra generally seals a game.
Creatures:9
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Bristling Hydra
1 Demon of Dark Schemes
Spells:27
4 Attune with Aether
4 Lay Bare the Heart
2 Negate
4 Trial of Ambition
2 Cartouche of Ambition
2 Never // Return
4 Glimmer of Genius
3 Torment of Scarabs
2 Yahenni's Expertise
If there is on ongoing thread discussing similar ideas, I apologize for not finding it.
I am fairly new, however a common consensus that I have picked up on as I frequent my FNM and listen to more experienced players discuss cards like Unburden, and to a lesser extent cards like Torment of Hailfire, is that hand hatred and cards that give your opponent a choice are bad.
First, I was wondering if anyone had an opinion on hand hate. If anyone could give me an example of when the mechanic has been strong? Perhaps an article that explains the best timings to make a player discard a card? If you don't have any resources like that to share, then I would be more than thrilled to just learn from your collective experience as well.
Thanks in advance! On to the deck. It is very simple.
The goal is to lock down the board and hand of the opposing player. Hopefully, very little gets played, and even less gets to remain on the board.
4x Bontu's Last Reckoning (HOU)
4x Doomfall (HOU)
4x Harsh Scrutiny (KLD)
4x Lay Bare the Heart (AKH)
4x Never / Return (AKH)
2x Yahenni's Expertise (AER)
2x Torment of Hailfire (HOU)
4x Torment of Venom (HOU)
Creatures:
2x Noxious Gearhulk (MPS)
Walkers:
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited (DDR)
Land:
24x Swamp (HOU)
4x Torment of Scarabs (HOU)
Win condition:
Control the game with the most proactive forms of hand hate.
Drain your opponent in 3 life increments. It's no secret what consequence players will choose when faced with the "Torment" cards. (Ex.Torment of Scarabs) Most players place the highest priority on Board State, then Hand, then Life.
My goal is to just to help them make the decision they were already going to make : )
By removing their hand and board from the equation.
I am trying my best to pick my cards to deal with the threats I think my opponents might want to play. It can be hard to choose between cards like Transgress the Mind and Lay Bare the Heart... Advice?
I think that with the right side board, we could make the control offerings flexible enough to deal with the various styles of decks in standard. For example against decks with a lot of creatures, we probably want 4 Fatal Push to go with our Harsh Scrutiny. But in a control match-up those cards could become almost completely dead in your hand.
Heh, I know you guys know how to side board, probably better than I do. I guess I'm more typing it out for my benefit.
So can you guys help me make the side board?
Do you guys think that it is a good idea to bring in a card like The Scarab God when playing against decks that give you lots of targets to loot out of their graveyard?
A thing that I've noted
This deck is probably twice as good going first, on the play... Similar to most control decks? Right?
Cards like Harsh Scrutiny and Lay Bare the Heart perform much better if you take your turn first.
But I think it's recoverable on the draw, so on to the ideation! How bad is it? Feel free to give your honest opinion.
- Your opponent could be playing aggro where he puts down his threats before you can discard them.
- Your discards make very bad top decks when you need a kill spell or win con.
- Your discards are dead cards in hand if your opponent has no cards in hand. Again, all they need is to play by top decking what they need.
Long story short, you need to find a good reason WHY you are discarding their cards while finding a wincon to go with it. Cards like Waste Not or The Rack are not standard legal, so there's no good reason to go with the strategy. Another disadvantage is there are some cards and decks that don't mind discarding, like madness cards or Delirium decks.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
I'd like to talk about your concerns. I've had them too.
In order,
I agree, an opening hand with a copy of Harsh Scrutiny and Lay Bare the Heart is infinitely better than drawing into these cards later on. That's why I only have 8 copies of specifically this type of effect. drawing into it isn't amazing.
If we get to that point, I think it's a huge win. I don't expect to actually empty my opponents hand until later in the game. Up until then, the targeted discarding is mostly to deal with the threats that will hurt me the most / can't be dealt with by my removal. If they are needing to top deck to get by, I think I've probably got them.
I guess, like you, this is my biggest concern. I feel like my removal should be able to respond quickly enough to deal with most threats. But will it actually? I guess I don't know... It feels like, unless their deck is straight up "Red Deck Wins" Haste creatures for days, that I might have a chance. In order to win, I have to two for one with Yahenni's or Bontu's.
This is my goal for Torment of Scarabs and Torment of Hailfire. They are meant to be my reason. even just a 5 mana Torment of Hailfire on a card-less opponent seems very strong to me. Almost every card in my deck, goes one for one with a card in my opponents deck. Which means games should stall out by default, correct? Is that the right way to think about it? And if the game stalls, I think between Ob Nixilis Reignited and the torment cards, I should have a decent shot against a lot of decks.
If I can resolve a Torment of Scarabs, it really feels like a win-con by itself to me at least.
Yeah that is a tragic concept. I would say that I think those decks generally want to discard the "right" cards, and not just any card. I don't see much madness being played tbh. As for delirium. I think those decks are slow enough that my removal can respond to it as it comes. Might be a counter though. Which is ok for a deck to have.
One general point. Most decks do not run this much "destroy target creature". Because I have very little desire to establish a board state of my own. I think a card like Bontu's Last Reckoning, even with all of it's drawbacks, actually performs it's job really well.
I guess I could really only back up my ideas by testing the deck, which I will most likely do this next week... Did you spot any obvious improvements to be made? Or think of any important side board cards?
Thanks.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Painfully slow
Terrible against aggro
Thanks for being honest, that's why I'm here.
I agree Heart of Kiran truly does demand Fatal Push. And Fatal Push is almost never bad to have main deck... Probably just against u/r control does it kind of stay dead in your hand. (There is a lot of that at my lgs). But yeah, I think you are right. Fatal Push gets moved to main. Torment of Venom moves to side.
Hour of Glory seems like a great option. Maybe I'll have it main. In place of Yahenni's Expertise. Yeah that seems good. I can bring Yahenni's back in if they are running a really wide board. At the same time though. I think Yahenni's is probably important to defeating U/W Monument (hits through Selfless Spirit ). Which almost half my store was running yesterday.
Alright man, thanks for the tips. As for "painfully slow", and "four mediocre win conditions". Similar statements could probably be made about a lot of control decks. Maybe without the similar card draw that those decks possess, I'll just run out of answers too quickly... Well, we will see. I'll test it out this week. Thanks again.
1 Noxious Gearhulk
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
Planeswalkers
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Liliana, the Last Hope
Spells
4 Fatal Push
2 Grasp of Darkness
1 Hour of Glory
3 Never // Return
3 Yahenni's Expertise
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
3 Transgress the Mind
2 Collective Brutality
2 Doomfall
3 Succumb to Temptation
1 Westvale Abbey
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
2 Hostile Desert
3 Desert of the Glorified
4 Ifnir Deadlands
2 Scavenger Grounds
2 Aether Hub
9 Swamp
4 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2 Lost Legacy
2 Liliana's Defeat
2 Torment of Hailfire
3 Trespasser's Curse
It's not amazing by any means, but it can win a lot of games for FNM level.
Thought-Knot Seer plays well into your theme and brings along Reality Smasher with him. Not only is it another win con, Smasher kinda goes with the discard theme if they try to remove it. The main thing to do is to either play all your removals and then your win cons, or all your discard then your win cons.
Sideboarding:
UW Monument
+4 Gifted 3 Curse
-1 Noxious 2 Doomfall 3 Transgress 1 Ob Nixilis
Zombies
+4 Gifted 3 Curse 2 Defeat
-1 Noxious 2 Doomfall 3 Transgress 2 Ob Nixilis 1 Never
UR Control
+4 Gifted 2 Gonti 2 Torment
-3 Fatal Push 3 Yahenni's Expertise 2 Bontu
BG
+4 Gifted 2 Gonti 2 Torment 2 Defeat
-3 Yahenni 3 Liliana 2 Doomfall 2 Collective
Temur
+4 Gifted 2 Torment 2 Gonti
-2 Collective 3 Yahenni 2 Doomfall 1 Liliana
Pretty straight forward, but one thing to note is how Gifted Aetherborn comes in almost all the time. It trades with everything and gains life, but the main reason is most opponents will be siding out their removal, making your Aetherborns that much better.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
I'll report back here at the end of the week to talk about how it did.
copy/paste
Gave this some more thought as well.
3 Dread Wanderer
2 Dreamstealer
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Miasmic Mummy
2 Harsh Scrutiny
3 Lay Bare the Heart
3 Collective Brutality
2 Doomfall
3 Grasp of Darkness
3 Bontu's Last Reckoning
2 Never // Return
4 Merciless Resolve
4 Desert of the Glorified
4 Hostile Desert
4 Ifnir Dreadlands
11 Swamp
3 Hour of Glory
2 Never // Return
3 Bone Picker
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Lost Legacy
Quick thoughts:
Dread Wanderer: Recurring threat. Win Con.
Dreamstealer: Beast if it hits. "Recurring" threat.
Seer: Beef body. Great ability.
Mummy: Early discard annoyance. Pitches lands.
Scrutiny: Good but not good enough to run more than 2 imo.
Lay Bare: Hits everything.
Brutality: The complete disruption, removal, and land pitch outlet.
Doomfall: May not end up being good enough for effect? +1 Scrutiny +1 Dreamstealer?
Push: Core removal.
Grasp: Core removal. Will probably be reprinted.
Reckoning: A given.
Never/Return: PW Hate.
Resolve: Need some draw. Instant speed and land pitch.
Hostile Desert: Win Con.
Also considered 1 Ghoulsteed as a win con lol. Pitches lands late game. Doesn't seem terrible.
Other considerations: Asylum Visitor, Hailfire, Midnight Oil. Ammit
How you should approach every game of Magic.
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My Flawless Score MCC Card | My Other One | # Three!
I know its not mono black but imo mono black doesnt have enough.
Ive been testing the trial/cartouche package because the basic idea is that all your cards need to be worth at the very least one of your opponents cards.
Playing the trials early to keep the board clear and dropping a cartouche on a bristling hydra generally seals a game.
Creatures:9
4 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
4 Bristling Hydra
1 Demon of Dark Schemes
Spells:27
4 Attune with Aether
4 Lay Bare the Heart
2 Negate
4 Trial of Ambition
2 Cartouche of Ambition
2 Never // Return
4 Glimmer of Genius
3 Torment of Scarabs
2 Yahenni's Expertise
Lands:24
4 Aether Hub
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Botanical Sanctum
3 Forest
5 Island
6 Swamp
Sideboard:15
3 Obelisk Spider
3 Dispel
2 Harsh Scrutiny
1 Negate
2 Appetite for the Unnatural
2 Lost Legacy
1 Never // Return
1 Yahenni's Expertise