So, I was thinking since Oketra the True and Rhonas the Indomitable seam to synergies so well, green white tokens, that Abzon seemed like a great idea.
Any suggestions should I add more black or cut it for more tokens Odric, Lunarch Marshal is op with any God in play everything get death touch first strike and indestructible or every thing gets double strike. I think I have enough removal and card draw to make this mid rage deck shine Then their is the B/W zombie rout splashing green or the G/W cat token tribal deck but I think that one is to gimmicky.
What do you all think can Abzon work in standard. Would cat tribal be better am I over hyping Odric.
Would this odd mess of cards stand a chance at beating vehicles and 4 color copy cat?
If you pare your list to 36 nonland cards with deck tags and list the number of color sources you want for each color, I can try to come up with a manabase for you.
As for expectations: Mardu and Saheeli are the best decks. The best players and brewers have tuned and tested them for tens to hundreds of thousands of hours. I don't know if your deck's core concept can beat them, but by the law of averages, it would be unlikely. If it were good enough, I would expect it to take lots of tuning and testing to get there.
SO tried to do the deck insert thing and well.:up:
I thought I could get away with 20 lands even though it was 3 color win an aggressive low curve and cards that only require a single mana of non:symw:. I guess I could replace the 2 Watchful Naga and 1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation with 3 Channeler Initiate.
- For a curve like yours, you need 24 lands.
- Speaking of lands, your mana base is really bad and all over the place. For example, you only have five sources for B. You're not going to cast anything.
- Your cards have no synergy with each other. Why would you have Dusk // Dawn if all your creatures are 3 power or more? Why are you saying you want a low curve with less lands yet you're in three colors and most of your creatures are slow and cost high? You have two gods with very little to activate both.
- What's your reasoning behind the sideboard choices? They look like a random assortment of cards that doesn't help the deck or help against the top decks in the format (or speculated decks). For example, Tamiyo is of no use to the deck when you don't have any blue sources and running only two Oath of Nissa.
These are just a few of the problems with the deck. You have to re-evaluate what you're trying to do and build on it. If you're really set on doing Abzan I would just go primarily GW (and have your manabase reflect that) with a light splash for B for removal.
Thanks for trying. Even without the deck tags, your listing is much better organized and readable. I fixed it for you above and you can "Quote" this to see how it's done.
Thank you very much most help full. Oketra is a bit hard to turn on but her and Rhonas together is amazing. Trample 5/6 double strike with indestructible.
Red green or jund might be the better choice but I miss my mid range Abzon.
Thanks for trying. Even without the deck tags, your listing is much better organized and readable. I fixed it for you above and you can "Quote" this to see how it's done.
I also saw Odric and went this has to be to good to leave out but he dose cost 8. Still All of you creatures having double-strike, indestructible, death touch and trample sounds nice in theory. Tahlia and Kambal are their to disrupt copy cat but they mite be to week vs Mardu and teamir tour. Dusk to dawn might be misplaced right now because it can only bring back more then 5 cards main-board cards. Maybe cut the Engineered Might and 2 other cards and add in 3 Watchful Naga?
For a curve like yours, you need 24 lands seams a bit high but taking a second look I do have 10 4 drops. The black is mostly for side board Lilly or a shift to more black heavy in the future this is just draft 1. Plus you really need a lot of black if you want to be able to fatal push on turn 1-3.
A second look makes me want to do more single and increase the synergy with card diversity witch has worked in the past for a few decks though I know you usually want less diversity so you have greater consistency in your deck over all.
Now to address the god synergy Ocatra wants you to go wide while Rhonas wants to go big. The cat is a 3 so the snake can pump her to turn on the cat need creature hanweir militia captain is a token generator once you get 4 creature again rough draft this could be to slow for but it dose sinergyies with Sram's expertise and Giden that makes tokens. Plus always watching buffs all my non-token creatures to 4 power witch will turn on Rhonas.
Prowling Serpopard is for help against heavy counter decks as is tamyo. Lilly is their as an alternative win con and to help bring back the bigger creature.
The decklists look sharp. Unfortunately, I don't know how to help you further. You have gotten advice that your mana doesn't work. You want to run a midrange deck with 21 lands. I'm sure that won't work, so any other advice I could give you would be pointless.
My initial offer stands: given a single list of 36 mainboard+15 sideboard nonland cards and the number of sources for each color needed to cast all your spells, I will suggest a manabase.
Otherwise, I recommend you verify what you have been told about your manabase. A quick Google search would find you some articles. You could also look at successful decks with curves like yours. You could proxy any of your decks and play out hands just to see how often you can cast your spells. This is an article written by someone for this site: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/128633-how-to-build-better-decks .
I hope this helps.
The decklists look sharp. Unfortunately, I don't know how to help you further. You have gotten advice that your mana doesn't work. You want to run a midrange deck with 21 lands. I'm sure that won't work, so any other advice I could give you would be pointless.
My initial offer stands: given a single list of 36 mainboard+15 sideboard nonland cards and the number of sources for each color needed to cast all your spells, I will suggest a manabase.
Otherwise, I recommend you verify what you have been told about your manabase. A quick Google search would find you some articles. You could also look at successful decks with curves like yours. You could proxy any of your decks and play out hands just to see how often you can cast your spells. This is an article written by someone for this site: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/128633-how-to-build-better-decks .
I hope this helps.
Okay If I need to add 2-3 more lands what should I take out? Plus the Oath of Nissa are close to being lands so long as I have green mana. Manglehorn and Thalia are for copy cat. I think it can can beat mardue. The key card in version 2.0A is Always Watching this allow many of my creature to turn on Rhonas the Indomitable including Oketra the True. I also have token generation that despite having anti-synergy with Always Watching helps keep Oketra up as a 3/6 double striker. Odric is their as a test to see if he can make it in to stander-ed and as a win condition. Rhonas plus Odric, Lunarch Marshal is basically you wining the gamr on turn 5-6. Indestructible, Death-touch, Fists-trike, Trample on a 5/5 and 5/3 plus the two drop that could be a 3/3 or 4/4 swing it two maybe gaining some life as well.
Plus Channeler Initiate also give me 3 more additional source of mana so I don't know if it is to greedy to just run 21 land and not 23-24.
Don't have all the cards to test out witch mana is to week. I think that I have a dissent answer to the two big decks and but it is hard to say.
What would you cut?
Or how would you build in these colors 2.0-C is the real gimmick deck but it looks fun to me.
First thing is: don't wait until you have the cards to test. It takes too long and what if you find you don't want the card after all, but you want another? It wastes time and resources. Make proxies (mark up spare land with a pen or type up the text from some cards, print them out, cut them to separate and slide them in sleeves in front of other cards) and goldfish (play out hands solitaire-style) or play with friends or on the side during events at your local store. You don't need the real cards if you are not in a sanctioned tournament. Once you have done enough early testing, get the remaining real cards before playing in a real tournament.
My goal is to help you make your deck work, so I feel awkward picking between decks, but if you insist ... I like the Rhonas+Oketra+Always Watching concept, so I will work with 2.0A. First off, I see BB in the casting cost of Archfiend. That means a lot of B sources for a singleton that isn't even part of the main game plan. Next, I don't even see very many cycling cards. Hapatra seems similarly off-track. Kambal seems like a sideboard card against spell-heavy decks. Fatal Push is a good card though, so lets leave in enough B sources for Hapatra anyway.
Typically, mana dorks like Channeler Initiate count as half a mana source, so if we cut the Archmage and move Kambal to the sideboard, we can add a land and another Channeler Initiate to make 24 sources (22 land + (4 * .5 (for mana dork)) = 24). Now, my goal is to help you be able to make decks, so I want you to be involved in the process. I want you to look up the number of sources you need for each color. You want WW (double-color) on turn 3 for Always Watching. You want G (single-color) on turn 1 for Oath of Nissa. You want B (also single-color) on turn 2 for Fatal Push and Hapatra. Please go to the page I referred you to before and look up how many sources Frank Karsten recommends for each color and tell me what you see. Currently 2.0A with 4 Channelers has 12 from land + 2 from dorks for 14 W sources, 6 + 2 B sources and 10 G sources (dorks can't get you to G unless you already have G).
This gets me back to my initial offer: If you give me those numbers and tell me that you want me to, I will come up with a manabase suggestion that you can tweak.
But I think you also want more help on the deck. My judgement is that you need to focus on your plan A more. I would start with another Always Watching and another Glory-Bound Initiate. I would consider a third of each of your Gods or maybe other cards that pack a wallop like Verdurous Gearhulk (although that has mana implications). Tireless Tracker seems better than Painful Truths in this deck as it provides card advantage and helps activate both of your gods. Oath of Ajani seems worse than Always Watching and Wander in Death seems somewhat random if you want suggestions for cuts.
I'm going to put it this way, just because you're playing three colors (or in your case maybe even four or five) doesn't mean you can play ANY cards in those colors. Your manabase has to support your curve.
First thing is: don't wait until you have the cards to test. It takes too long and what if you find you don't want the card after all, but you want another? It wastes time and resources. Make proxies (mark up spare land with a pen or type up the text from some cards, print them out, cut them to separate and slide them in sleeves in front of other cards) and goldfish (play out hands solitaire-style) or play with friends or on the side during events at your local store. You don't need the real cards if you are not in a sanctioned tournament. Once you have done enough early testing, get the remaining real cards before playing in a real tournament.
My goal is to help you make your deck work, so I feel awkward picking between decks, but if you insist ... I like the Rhonas+Oketra+Always Watching concept, so I will work with 2.0A. First off, I see BB in the casting cost of Archfiend. That means a lot of B sources for a singleton that isn't even part of the main game plan. Next, I don't even see very many cycling cards. Hapatra seems similarly off-track. Kambal seems like a sideboard card against spell-heavy decks. Fatal Push is a good card though, so lets leave in enough B sources for Hapatra anyway.
Typically, mana dorks like Channeler Initiate count as half a mana source, so if we cut the Archmage and move Kambal to the sideboard, we can add a land and another Channeler Initiate to make 24 sources (22 land + (4 * .5 (for mana dork)) = 24). Now, my goal is to help you be able to make decks, so I want you to be involved in the process. I want you to look up the number of sources you need for each color. You want WW (double-color) on turn 3 for Always Watching. You want G (single-color) on turn 1 for Oath of Nissa. You want B (also single-color) on turn 2 for Fatal Push and Hapatra. Please go to the page I referred you to before and look up how many sources Frank Karsten recommends for each color and tell me what you see. Currently 2.0A with 4 Channelers has 12 from land + 2 from dorks for 14 W sources, 6 + 2 B sources and 10 G sources (dorks can't get you to G unless you already have G).
This gets me back to my initial offer: If you give me those numbers and tell me that you want me to, I will come up with a manabase suggestion that you can tweak.
But I think you also want more help on the deck. My judgement is that you need to focus on your plan A more. I would start with another Always Watching and another Glory-Bound Initiate. I would consider a third of each of your Gods or maybe other cards that pack a wallop like Verdurous Gearhulk (although that has mana implications). Tireless Tracker seems better than Painful Truths in this deck as it provides card advantage and helps activate both of your gods. Oath of Ajani seems worse than Always Watching and Wander in Death seems somewhat random if you want suggestions for cuts.
I hope this helps more!
Okay so 24 mana sources guarantee to have all 3 colors by turn 3 which is good if I read the it right. I count the oaths as 0.25 so 2 equals 1 but 24.5 just means better fixing. Archfiend of Ifnir is probably a win more card and all my deck really needs to do is make a lot of guys so I can play big guys. Simplifying the hole -1/-1 counter synergy. I count the oaths as 0.25 so 2 equals 1 but 24.5 just means better fixing.
I believe that I need 19 white sources for turn 3 and 18 for turn 4. So the 14 I have is a bit low I would only have double white by turn 7 witch is to slow so I need another 4 white source I don't need to play it on turn 3 so I think by turn 4-5 should be enough. So 17 white should be close enough. Then i need 13 black for turn 2 fatal push and 14 green for turn 1 Oath of Nissa.
SO I need to add more black and green and white. So plus 1 Channeler Initiate brings me to 15W, 8B, 10G I should probably remove cascading cataracts and replace it with evolving wilds. so I would have 16/9/11. That still puts me one white a way and 4 black and 3 green from what I want. SO I need to replace Archfiend of Ifnir with blooming marsh.
Thanks for working with me. The thing is, deck construction is partly about statistics and risk, not cajoling another human into agreeing. Statistics are a cruel opponent. There are at least five ways for the mana to go badly for this deck: screw, flood, W screw, G screw and B screw. If you design your deck to increase your success chances to 90% (Karsten's threshold) on each of these metrics, then your chance of avoiding all of them is .9 * .9 * .9 * .9 * .9 = .59. So if you can get your color screw chances down to .9 each, you are still looking at having mana issues about 3/5ths of the time. If you were to move to just two colors and get your color screw chances up to .93, then you would be looking at problems 7/10ths of the time (.9 * .9 * .93 *.93 = .70).
I apologize for not factoring in the Oath of Nissas in my mana calculations. I think they count as probably over .5 of a land and they also help with fixing in addition to the way they help casting Gideon.
Here is what I would do for the 22 land 13W 9B 14G manabase (allowing 4B and 4W sources for the Channelers and Oath of Nissas):
It has only 12 untapped G sources turn 1, so Oath of Nissa will be less than 90% castable on turn 1, but it is sometimes good to hold it until you see what you need. If you want to lower that chance further, you can fit in some manlands or an Abbey. You have excess G sources, so Concealed Courtyard and Shambling Vents replacing a G dual allows you flexibility but hurts your chances of t1 G.
Anyway, whichever of these options you go with (or something in between), I think your deck now has a much better chance of casting its spells. Time to test and tune!
I'd like to interject on this mana subject, and offer you an easier route to mana fixing.
Use Energy. Adding Energy cards to the deck will make the mana much better.
Like right now, you use Channeler Initiate, when, as part of a greater energy package, Servant of the Conduit would be better. Now, I understand that Initiate works better with Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons, but you only have 2 of Her and only 6 cards that give any -1/-1 counters. This is a small enough part of the deck that I think I'd cut all of them out.
When you decide to go the Energy route, then you can add in 4 Aether Hub. You also get Attune with Aether to add more energy and find the lands you need. Then, I submit with only 2 Gideons, you're not going to need the mana fixing that comes from Oath, so you can replace the card advantage with card draw. I would personally pick Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, but Live Fast could do the job as well.
Here's a manabase I use for my Abzan list (different archetype), but it should work, or be close to working with minor tweaking for your list.
I'd like to interject on this mana subject, and offer you an easier route to mana fixing.
Use Energy. Adding Energy cards to the deck will make the mana much better.
Like right now, you use Channeler Initiate, when, as part of a greater energy package, Servant of the Conduit would be better. Now, I understand that Initiate works better with Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons, but you only have 2 of Her and only 6 cards that give any -1/-1 counters. This is a small enough part of the deck that I think I'd cut all of them out.
When you decide to go the Energy route, then you can add in 4 Aether Hub. You also get Attune with Aether to add more energy and find the lands you need. Then, I submit with only 2 Gideons, you're not going to need the mana fixing that comes from Oath, so you can replace the card advantage with card draw. I would personally pick Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, but Live Fast could do the job as well.
Here's a manabase I use for my Abzan list (different archetype), but it should work, or be close to working with minor tweaking for your list.
with this mana base you can run similar builds of this deck. This deck could just get wrecked by Red/Black aggro or some nya build but each build will be vastly different.
Depending on how Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons works out she might get cut if she dose then their is no need for all the -1/-1 in the deck. That would also mean I might need to run more resilient creatures, like Scrapheap Scrounger. If I put in Servant of the Conduit then I loos 4 snakes. Plus 1 snake is worth a 3/4 or a 4/4 later in the game because I just put the counters on the snake to have a big creature in play and possibly replace the snake at the same time. The snakes are also there to stop aggro. Swing I will block I got the token for free any way.
Verdurous Gearhulk could always get replaced as could Thalia, Heretic Cathar. I will be testing soon.
Now if she is bad in the meta then I would have to see if Winding Constrictor is being pressured with minus counters; if not then that card goes in with servant and maybe a barista. Tireless tracker would replace the Exemplar of Strength and a Painful truths. This build would work better with hoser2 mana base do it being faster and having fech-lands for watcher.
Even Gedion that will rotate out in 3 months is their to make token turn on Rhonas or make be a second +1-+1 to all my creatures again turning on Rhonas.
I mean Odric could be terrible or an amazing win condition if this deck fails in a month and a half or the nya deck proves to be better then obviously Abzon was not meant for Amonkhet but, the hour has not yet come so I can't make a Grixis deck yet.
I think Devoted Crop-Mate could be better but Glint-Sleeve Siphoner dose help with the extra mana. Plus having menace and death touch with Odric is so really good or double strike. I still like Oath of Nissa over Attune with Aether because it can get more then just lands and can't get interrupted by Aven Mindcensor.
I tried to build off of your idea. Is it close?
It seams that this could work well with Dusk // Dawn could be really good side bored in this because every thing comes back and that would be a good way to beat aggro. Honored Hydra could also be good but I was sticking to the energy slot and Bristling Hydra works so well when this Odric and gives all your stuff hexproof if you have enough extra energy. This could be better I will have to try it out. I could also run 3 fatal push and 1 die young.
With that mana base, and as much energy generation you have in the deck, you likely won't have trouble hitting the colors you need to hit. I still suggest Attune as a 4-of, because it's going to give that early energy that keeps your Aether Hubs turned on long enough to get lands in play that don't rely on energy to produce colors.
You probably wouldn't run Bristling Hydra like that. You typically want to use it's hexproof ability in response to removal. If you use it to try to give the team hexproof, your opponent will target it in response. That means you'll either have to spend more energy (if you have it) or lose your Hydra. Hydra is a great creature, you just don't want it to be the way the team gets hexproof.
I'm looking at your creatures and I see you have the white and green gods. Are you worried that you don't have the creatures to support those cards? You only have 17 non-white god creatures in the deck and 2 Sram's Expertise. I think you could find yourself without enough creatures in play to have it turned on. And with the green god, you only have the 2 Bristling Hydras with power greater than 4 without help to turn it on. That could be problematic.
I still suggest Attune as a 4-of, because it's going to give that early energy that keeps your Aether Hubs turned on long enough to get lands in play that don't rely on energy to produce colors.
I'm looking at your creatures and I see you have the white and green gods. Are you worried that you don't have the creatures to support those cards? You only have 17 non-white god creatures in the deck and 2 Sram's Expertise. I think you could find yourself without enough creatures in play to have it turned on. And with the green god, you only have the 2 Bristling Hydras with power greater than 4 without help to turn it on. That could be problematic.
Attune with eather is great with energy but it is bad late game I would prefer oath of Nisa because it gives you better late game play but attune dose give you energy and energy is a must in this deck.
Now for turning on my bricks that is easy Gidion is a 5/5 creature and another 2 sources of +1/+1 to all my creatures so I am running 19 creature that way. Plus the Lone rider can become a 4/4 with Woodweaver's Puzzleknot, Glory-Bound Initiate, or a pump from Rhonas the Indomitable. [card]Start // Finish
[/card] might be a replaced with a fatal push and maybe on of the die young but that could reduce the number of cards that make creatures to less then 25. At the same time oath will rotate in 3 months with Gideon so their is more reason to keep the Attune then their is to remove it.
Plus there are only 5 creatures that die to Dusk // Dawn that can't be brought back so if you swap out some of those cards for smaller ones this deck could have a great match up verses vehicles.
So any one had any new ideas I'm still waiting on a few cards to take this out of a test dive. So if anyone has another direction I would like to hear you thoughts. I might need more removal for foretold decks.
It looks purity sold verses most deck maybe I need discard affects?
4 fatal push
3 Painful truths
2 Oketra the True
3 Rhonas the Indomitable
2 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
4 hanweir militia captain
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Glory-Bound Initiate
1 Engineered Might
4 Always Watching
2 Natural State
2 Oath of Nissa
2 Dusk to Dawn
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sram's Expertise
2 Watchful Naga
1 Honored Hydra
1 Larger Than Life
18 lands ? help with mana bace please.
Side bored 2 Declaration in Stone, 2 Tamiyo, Field Researcher, 3 Plague Belcher, 2 Felidar Guardian, 3 Renegade Rallier, 1 Liliana, Death's Majesty 2 Prowling Serpopard
Any suggestions should I add more black or cut it for more tokens Odric, Lunarch Marshal is op with any God in play everything get death touch first strike and indestructible or every thing gets double strike. I think I have enough removal and card draw to make this mid rage deck shine Then their is the B/W zombie rout splashing green or the G/W cat token tribal deck but I think that one is to gimmicky.
What do you all think can Abzon work in standard. Would cat tribal be better am I over hyping Odric.
Would this odd mess of cards stand a chance at beating vehicles and 4 color copy cat?
For a deck with four drops, you want at least 23-24 lands. Look also at your color requirements. For Always Watching, you want WW on turn 3. Tamiyo wants WUG on turn 4. Serpopard wants GG on turn 4. Liliana wants BB on turn 5. Here's the resource I use to calculate my minimum color sources: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
If you pare your list to 36 nonland cards with deck tags and list the number of color sources you want for each color, I can try to come up with a manabase for you.
As for expectations: Mardu and Saheeli are the best decks. The best players and brewers have tuned and tested them for tens to hundreds of thousands of hours. I don't know if your deck's core concept can beat them, but by the law of averages, it would be unlikely. If it were good enough, I would expect it to take lots of tuning and testing to get there.
I hope this helps!
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
18 lands ? help with mana bace please.
Side bored 2 Declaration in Stone, 2 Tamiyo, Field Researcher, 3 Plague Belcher, 2 Felidar Guardian, 3 Renegade Rallier, 1 Liliana, Death's Majesty 2 Prowling Serpopard
SO tried to do the deck insert thing and well.:up:
I thought I could get away with 20 lands even though it was 3 color win an aggressive low curve and cards that only require a single mana of non:symw:. I guess I could replace the 2 Watchful Naga and 1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation with 3 Channeler Initiate.
1swamps
7 plains
4 forest
2 blooming marsh
1 cascading cataracts
2 Concealed Courtyard
3 Scattered Groves
2 Oketra the True
3 Rhonas the Indomitable
2 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
4 hanweir militia captain
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Glory-Bound Initiate
1 Honored Hydra
Plains Walker
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Other
1 Engineered Might
4 Always Watching
2 Natural State
2 Oath of Nissa
2 Dusk//Dawn
2 Sram's Expertise
4 fatal push
3 Painful truths
Lands
1 Evolving wilds
1swamps
7 plains
4 forest
2 blooming marsh
1 cascading cataracts
2 Concealed Courtyard
3 Scattered Groves
Side bored 2 Declaration in Stone, 2 Tamiyo, Field Researcher, 3 Plague Belcher, 2 Felidar Guardian, 3 Renegade Rallier, 1 Liliana, Death's Majesty 2 Prowling Serpopard
How is that.
- Speaking of lands, your mana base is really bad and all over the place. For example, you only have five sources for B. You're not going to cast anything.
- Your cards have no synergy with each other. Why would you have Dusk // Dawn if all your creatures are 3 power or more? Why are you saying you want a low curve with less lands yet you're in three colors and most of your creatures are slow and cost high? You have two gods with very little to activate both.
- What's your reasoning behind the sideboard choices? They look like a random assortment of cards that doesn't help the deck or help against the top decks in the format (or speculated decks). For example, Tamiyo is of no use to the deck when you don't have any blue sources and running only two Oath of Nissa.
These are just a few of the problems with the deck. You have to re-evaluate what you're trying to do and build on it. If you're really set on doing Abzan I would just go primarily GW (and have your manabase reflect that) with a light splash for B for removal.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Red green or jund might be the better choice but I miss my mid range Abzon.
I also saw Odric and went this has to be to good to leave out but he dose cost 8. Still All of you creatures having double-strike, indestructible, death touch and trample sounds nice in theory. Tahlia and Kambal are their to disrupt copy cat but they mite be to week vs Mardu and teamir tour. Dusk to dawn might be misplaced right now because it can only bring back more then 5 cards main-board cards. Maybe cut the Engineered Might and 2 other cards and add in 3 Watchful Naga?
The 4hanweir militia captain and 1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation give me 5 targets for the spell but it is mostly to slow down mardu vehicles.
A second look makes me want to do more single and increase the synergy with card diversity witch has worked in the past for a few decks though I know you usually want less diversity so you have greater consistency in your deck over all.
Now to address the god synergy Ocatra wants you to go wide while Rhonas wants to go big. The cat is a 3 so the snake can pump her to turn on the cat need creature hanweir militia captain is a token generator once you get 4 creature again rough draft this could be to slow for but it dose sinergyies with Sram's expertise and Giden that makes tokens. Plus always watching buffs all my non-token creatures to 4 power witch will turn on Rhonas.
Prowling Serpopard is for help against heavy counter decks as is tamyo. Lilly is their as an alternative win con and to help bring back the bigger creature.
2 Oketra the True
2 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
3 Channeler Initiate
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Glory-Bound Initiate
1 Archfiend of Ifnir
2 Exemplar of Strength
2 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
Plains Walker
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Other
1 Wander in Death
3 Always Watching
2 Dissenter's Deliverance
2 Oath of Nissa
2 Start // Finish
2 Sram's Expertise
4 fatal push
3 Painful truths
1 Oath of Ajani
1 Evolving wilds
1 swamp
1 Westvale Abbey
6 plains
4 forest
2 blooming marsh
1 cascading cataracts
2 Shambling Vent
3 Scattered Groves
Side bored
2 Oath of Ajani
1 Sacred Cat
1 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
3 Manglehorn
2 Vizier of Deferment
3 Renegade Rallier
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
2 Prowling Serpopard
Deck version 2.0B
1 Oketra the True
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Bontu the Glorified
3 Channeler Initiate
2 Vizier of Remedies
2 Yahenni, Undying Partisan
2 Exemplar of Strength
2 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
1 Archfiend of Ifnir
2 Blisterpod
3 Zulaport Cutthroat
Plains Walker
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Dusk // Dawn
2 Dissenter's Deliverance
2 Oath of Nissa
2 Altar's Reap
1 Start // Finish
2 Hidden Stockpile
3 fatal push
2 Painful truths
1 Nest of Scarabs
Lands
1 Evolving wilds
1 swamp
1 Westvale Abbey
6 plains
4 forest
2 blooming marsh
1 cascading cataracts
2 Shambling Vent
3 Scattered Groves
2 Oath of Ajani
1 Sacred Cat
1 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
3 Plague Belcher
2 Vizier of Deferment
3 Renegade Rallier
1 Liliana, Death's Majesty
2 Call the Bloodline
Land base is probably off.
Version 2.0-C
2 Oketra the True
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
3 Regal Caracal
2 Scrounging Bandar
2 Longtusk Cub
2 Initiate's Companion
3 Prowling Serpopard
3 Sacred Cat
2 Felidar Guardian
Plains Walker
1 Saheeli Rai
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Ajani Unyielding
3 Dusk // Dawn
3 Oath of Ajani
2 Oath of Nissa
2 Always Watching
1 Declaration in Stone
1 Tenacity
3 fatal push
2 Painful truths
1 Approach of the Second Sun
Lands
1 Evolving wilds
1 swamp
7 plains
4 forest
2 blooming marsh
1 cascading cataracts
2 Aether Hub
3 Scattered Groves
2 Riparian Tiger
3 Renewed Faith
2 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
3 Renegade Rallier
2 Saheeli Rai
2 Oath of Nissa
My initial offer stands: given a single list of 36 mainboard+15 sideboard nonland cards and the number of sources for each color needed to cast all your spells, I will suggest a manabase.
Otherwise, I recommend you verify what you have been told about your manabase. A quick Google search would find you some articles. You could also look at successful decks with curves like yours. You could proxy any of your decks and play out hands just to see how often you can cast your spells. This is an article written by someone for this site: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/128633-how-to-build-better-decks .
I hope this helps.
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Okay If I need to add 2-3 more lands what should I take out? Plus the Oath of Nissa are close to being lands so long as I have green mana. Manglehorn and Thalia are for copy cat. I think it can can beat mardue. The key card in version 2.0A is Always Watching this allow many of my creature to turn on Rhonas the Indomitable including Oketra the True. I also have token generation that despite having anti-synergy with Always Watching helps keep Oketra up as a 3/6 double striker. Odric is their as a test to see if he can make it in to stander-ed and as a win condition. Rhonas plus Odric, Lunarch Marshal is basically you wining the gamr on turn 5-6. Indestructible, Death-touch, Fists-trike, Trample on a 5/5 and 5/3 plus the two drop that could be a 3/3 or 4/4 swing it two maybe gaining some life as well.
Plus Channeler Initiate also give me 3 more additional source of mana so I don't know if it is to greedy to just run 21 land and not 23-24.
Don't have all the cards to test out witch mana is to week. I think that I have a dissent answer to the two big decks and but it is hard to say.
What would you cut?
Or how would you build in these colors 2.0-C is the real gimmick deck but it looks fun to me.
My goal is to help you make your deck work, so I feel awkward picking between decks, but if you insist ... I like the Rhonas+Oketra+Always Watching concept, so I will work with 2.0A. First off, I see BB in the casting cost of Archfiend. That means a lot of B sources for a singleton that isn't even part of the main game plan. Next, I don't even see very many cycling cards. Hapatra seems similarly off-track. Kambal seems like a sideboard card against spell-heavy decks. Fatal Push is a good card though, so lets leave in enough B sources for Hapatra anyway.
Typically, mana dorks like Channeler Initiate count as half a mana source, so if we cut the Archmage and move Kambal to the sideboard, we can add a land and another Channeler Initiate to make 24 sources (22 land + (4 * .5 (for mana dork)) = 24). Now, my goal is to help you be able to make decks, so I want you to be involved in the process. I want you to look up the number of sources you need for each color. You want WW (double-color) on turn 3 for Always Watching. You want G (single-color) on turn 1 for Oath of Nissa. You want B (also single-color) on turn 2 for Fatal Push and Hapatra. Please go to the page I referred you to before and look up how many sources Frank Karsten recommends for each color and tell me what you see. Currently 2.0A with 4 Channelers has 12 from land + 2 from dorks for 14 W sources, 6 + 2 B sources and 10 G sources (dorks can't get you to G unless you already have G).
This gets me back to my initial offer: If you give me those numbers and tell me that you want me to, I will come up with a manabase suggestion that you can tweak.
But I think you also want more help on the deck. My judgement is that you need to focus on your plan A more. I would start with another Always Watching and another Glory-Bound Initiate. I would consider a third of each of your Gods or maybe other cards that pack a wallop like Verdurous Gearhulk (although that has mana implications). Tireless Tracker seems better than Painful Truths in this deck as it provides card advantage and helps activate both of your gods. Oath of Ajani seems worse than Always Watching and Wander in Death seems somewhat random if you want suggestions for cuts.
I hope this helps more!
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Okay so 24 mana sources guarantee to have all 3 colors by turn 3 which is good if I read the it right. I count the oaths as 0.25 so 2 equals 1 but 24.5 just means better fixing.
Archfiend of Ifnir is probably a win more card and all my deck really needs to do is make a lot of guys so I can play big guys. Simplifying the hole -1/-1 counter synergy. I count the oaths as 0.25 so 2 equals 1 but 24.5 just means better fixing.
I believe that I need 19 white sources for turn 3 and 18 for turn 4. So the 14 I have is a bit low I would only have double white by turn 7 witch is to slow so I need another 4 white source I don't need to play it on turn 3 so I think by turn 4-5 should be enough. So 17 white should be close enough. Then i need 13 black for turn 2 fatal push and 14 green for turn 1 Oath of Nissa.
SO I need to add more black and green and white. So plus 1 Channeler Initiate brings me to 15W, 8B, 10G I should probably remove cascading cataracts and replace it with evolving wilds. so I would have 16/9/11. That still puts me one white a way and 4 black and 3 green from what I want. SO I need to replace Archfiend of Ifnir with blooming marsh.
2 Oketra the True
2 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
4 Channeler Initiate
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
3 Glory-Bound Initiate
2 Exemplar of Strength
2 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
Plains Walker
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Other
1 Wander in Death
3 Always Watching
2 Dissenter's Deliverance
2 Oath of Nissa
1 Start // Finish
2 Sram's Expertise
4 fatal push
3 Painful truths
2 Evolving wilds
1 swamp
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Fortified Village
3 plains
2 forest
1 Hissing Quagmire
3 blooming marsh
3 Shambling Vent
3 Scattered Groves
Side bored
2 Oath of Ajani
1 Sacred Cat
1 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
3 Manglehorn
2 Vizier of Deferment
3 Renegade Rallier
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Prowling Serpopard
Curve (1.5) 5 drop (7) 4 drops (9) 3 drops (13) 2 drops and (6) 1 drops.
I apologize for not factoring in the Oath of Nissas in my mana calculations. I think they count as probably over .5 of a land and they also help with fixing in addition to the way they help casting Gideon.
Here is what I would do for the 22 land 13W 9B 14G manabase (allowing 4B and 4W sources for the Channelers and Oath of Nissas):
2 Canopy Vista
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Forest
4 Fortified Village
2 Plains
1 Scattered Groves
1 Swamp
It has only 12 untapped G sources turn 1, so Oath of Nissa will be less than 90% castable on turn 1, but it is sometimes good to hold it until you see what you need. If you want to lower that chance further, you can fit in some manlands or an Abbey. You have excess G sources, so Concealed Courtyard and Shambling Vents replacing a G dual allows you flexibility but hurts your chances of t1 G.
Anyway, whichever of these options you go with (or something in between), I think your deck now has a much better chance of casting its spells. Time to test and tune!
RNA Standard: Grixis Midrange, Jund Deathwhirler, Sultai Vannifar
GRN Standard: Red Midrange, Mono-Blue Tempo, Wr Aggro, Gruul Experimental Dinosaurs, Sultai Midrange, Jeskai Midrange
Modern: Bant Spirits
Forcing a single archetype in all formats: too many colors, bad mana.
Use Energy. Adding Energy cards to the deck will make the mana much better.
Like right now, you use Channeler Initiate, when, as part of a greater energy package, Servant of the Conduit would be better. Now, I understand that Initiate works better with Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons, but you only have 2 of Her and only 6 cards that give any -1/-1 counters. This is a small enough part of the deck that I think I'd cut all of them out.
When you decide to go the Energy route, then you can add in 4 Aether Hub. You also get Attune with Aether to add more energy and find the lands you need. Then, I submit with only 2 Gideons, you're not going to need the mana fixing that comes from Oath, so you can replace the card advantage with card draw. I would personally pick Glint-Sleeve Siphoner, but Live Fast could do the job as well.
Here's a manabase I use for my Abzan list (different archetype), but it should work, or be close to working with minor tweaking for your list.
4 Aether Hub
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Canopy Vista
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
4 Servant of the Conduit
Sorceries 4
4 Attune with Aether
In that deck, I also run Glint-Sleeve Siphoner to take advantage of any extra energy I have laying around.
I hope that different perspective on the mana base is helpful.
Lone rider / It That Rides as One, Servant of the Conduit, tireless tracker, Winding Constrictor, Verdurous Gearhulk, and Archfiend of Ifnir are all good cards that do very different things.
with this mana base you can run similar builds of this deck. This deck could just get wrecked by Red/Black aggro or some nya build but each build will be vastly different.
Depending on how Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons works out she might get cut if she dose then their is no need for all the -1/-1 in the deck. That would also mean I might need to run more resilient creatures, like Scrapheap Scrounger. If I put in Servant of the Conduit then I loos 4 snakes. Plus 1 snake is worth a 3/4 or a 4/4 later in the game because I just put the counters on the snake to have a big creature in play and possibly replace the snake at the same time. The snakes are also there to stop aggro. Swing I will block I got the token for free any way.
Verdurous Gearhulk could always get replaced as could Thalia, Heretic Cathar. I will be testing soon.
Now if she is bad in the meta then I would have to see if Winding Constrictor is being pressured with minus counters; if not then that card goes in with servant and maybe a barista. Tireless tracker would replace the Exemplar of Strength and a Painful truths. This build would work better with hoser2 mana base do it being faster and having fech-lands for watcher.
If their are a lot of minous one counters out their then Winding Constrictor is a defiant NO. As is this build but maybe a slower more life link intensive build with Lone rider / It That Rides as One could work. I have no idea if any of the Cartouches are any good.
If they are then Cartouche of Solidarity with Trial of Ambition would be good or Cartouche of Ambition with Trial of Solidarity and so on.
Even Gedion that will rotate out in 3 months is their to make token turn on Rhonas or make be a second +1-+1 to all my creatures again turning on Rhonas.
I mean Odric could be terrible or an amazing win condition if this deck fails in a month and a half or the nya deck proves to be better then obviously Abzon was not meant for Amonkhet but, the hour has not yet come so I can't make a Grixis deck yet.
I could also run Mournwillow, Embodiment of Insight, Hooded Brawler, Yahenni, Undying Partisan or
Beastcaller Savant to give haste but all of these cards come with their ups and down if you guys want to try any alterations out and post back we can think tank this arch type through. Again nya could just be better? I like Abzan and Bolus better be Awesome.
I am thank full for the perspective Energy is very useful wood weavers puzzle knot plus Lone rider / It That Rides as One woould make a good combo with die young. Plus
2 Oketra the True
2 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
4 Servant of the Conduit
2 Bristling Hydra
3 Glory-Bound Initiate
3 Lone rider
2 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
Plains Walker
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Other
3 Always Watching
2 Woodweaver's Puzzleknot
2 Attune with Aether
1 Start // Finish
2 Sram's Expertise
4 die young
3 Live Fast
4 Aether Hub
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Canopy Vista
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
Side bored
2 Yahenni, Undying Partisan
3 Manglehorn
3 Dusk // Dawn
3 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Prowling Serpopard
I think Devoted Crop-Mate could be better but Glint-Sleeve Siphoner dose help with the extra mana. Plus having menace and death touch with Odric is so really good or double strike. I still like Oath of Nissa over Attune with Aether because it can get more then just lands and can't get interrupted by Aven Mindcensor.
I tried to build off of your idea. Is it close?
It seams that this could work well with Dusk // Dawn could be really good side bored in this because every thing comes back and that would be a good way to beat aggro.
Honored Hydra could also be good but I was sticking to the energy slot and Bristling Hydra works so well when this Odric and gives all your stuff hexproof if you have enough extra energy. This could be better I will have to try it out. I could also run 3 fatal push and 1 die young.
You probably wouldn't run Bristling Hydra like that. You typically want to use it's hexproof ability in response to removal. If you use it to try to give the team hexproof, your opponent will target it in response. That means you'll either have to spend more energy (if you have it) or lose your Hydra. Hydra is a great creature, you just don't want it to be the way the team gets hexproof.
I'm looking at your creatures and I see you have the white and green gods. Are you worried that you don't have the creatures to support those cards? You only have 17 non-white god creatures in the deck and 2 Sram's Expertise. I think you could find yourself without enough creatures in play to have it turned on. And with the green god, you only have the 2 Bristling Hydras with power greater than 4 without help to turn it on. That could be problematic.
Attune with eather is great with energy but it is bad late game I would prefer oath of Nisa because it gives you better late game play but attune dose give you energy and energy is a must in this deck.
Now for turning on my bricks that is easy Gidion is a 5/5 creature and another 2 sources of +1/+1 to all my creatures so I am running 19 creature that way. Plus the Lone rider can become a 4/4 with Woodweaver's Puzzleknot, Glory-Bound Initiate, or a pump from Rhonas the Indomitable. [card]Start // Finish
[/card] might be a replaced with a fatal push and maybe on of the die young but that could reduce the number of cards that make creatures to less then 25. At the same time oath will rotate in 3 months with Gideon so their is more reason to keep the Attune then their is to remove it.
Plus there are only 5 creatures that die to Dusk // Dawn that can't be brought back so if you swap out some of those cards for smaller ones this deck could have a great match up verses vehicles.
It looks purity sold verses most deck maybe I need discard affects?
2 Oketra the True
2 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
4 Servant of the Conduit
2 Bristling Hydra
3 Glory-Bound Initiate
3 Lone rider
2 Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
Plains Walker
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Other
3 Always Watching
2 Woodweaver's Puzzleknot
2 Attune with Aether
1 Anguished unmaking
2 Sram's Expertise
4 die young
3 Live Fast
4 Aether Hub
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Canopy Vista
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
Side bored
1 Yahenni, Undying Partisan
3 Manglehorn
3 Dusk // Dawn
3 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Natural State
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Prowling Serpopard