Crazy thought I posted in the unreleased card thread: almost nothing worth playing in standard can kill an awakened Cascading Cataracts. Is this a better end-game engine than Drake Haven, planeswalkers, or Torrential Gearhulk beats for control decks? You just bounce/counter/kill everything, drop counters on Cataracts, and enjoy the inevitability. Deck can comfortably be multicolor with all the fixing from Cataracts and everything else. Eventually you slam down an awakened Part the Waterveil and just win. Seems interesting.
I do think that the Drake Haven control deck seems strongest on paper, though. You get to freely run 4 copies each of Cast Out and Censor. Censor seems super undervalued; I know folks are salty it isn't Miscalculation but it's an easy cantrip that opponents have to respect less you use it to counter their stuff and gain huge tempo. If your deck has any amount of Havens, I feel like it should run 4 Censors. Early game counters and exiles are crucial in a format of Vehicles, Planeswalkers, and Indestructible Gods.
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Crazy thought I posted in the unreleased card thread: almost nothing worth playing in standard can kill an awakened Cascading Cataracts. Is this a better end-game engine than Drake Haven, planeswalkers, or Torrential Gearhulk beats for control decks? You just bounce/counter/kill everything, drop counters on Cataracts, and enjoy the inevitability. Deck can comfortably be multicolor with all the fixing from Cataracts and everything else. Eventually you slam down an awakened Part the Waterveil and just win. Seems interesting.
I do think that the Drake Haven control deck seems strongest on paper, though. You get to freely run 4 copies each of Cast Out and Censor. Censor seems super undervalued; I know folks are salty it isn't Miscalculation but it's an easy cantrip that opponents have to respect less you use it to counter their stuff and gain huge tempo. If your deck has any amount of Havens, I feel like it should run 4 Censors. Early game counters and exiles are crucial in a format of Vehicles, Planeswalkers, and Indestructible Gods.
I agree that censor is undervalued. I'm skeptical of haven as a win con. Here is my reasoning:
The card on it's own does nothing. It needs other cards (and mana) to "do something". How many cards that on their own do nothing can a control deck run in this std? Also, it is bad in multiples* so this means that running 4 is a definite no-no for me (*if you could activate each haven only once per turn, then multiples are good; but as it is, a single one can be activated as much as you like, so the second is really dead). In order for haven to be the real deal, one of two things need to be true: (1) a few activations should be enough to generate a seizable advantage (so as to decrease the negative effect of it doing nothing on its own) you up, or (2) you should run a dedicated cycle cards so you can reliably turn on haven every other turn. There are good cycle cards out there (like censor) but I'm skeptical control can really run too many cycle cards (I posted some ideas revolving around 10 cycle cards, but that won't be enough to reliably trigger haven).
Regarding cataracts, I like the idea (someone posted an awaken driven deck a few posts up). But there are some powerful answers: Exile effects like cast out, declaration in stone, stasis snare and (though it sees very little play) crumble to dust. Also, edicts are a thing (to the slaughter being the strongest). None of these cards see too much play, so week 1-4 this could be a decent late game. But I'd doubt this could be a reliable end game if it becomes the wincon of choice.
I think failure is generally worse than remand. Does that make it bad? Not sure but probably yes.
consider evaluating the card like this: failure is a remand that "draws" you comply. Question: is comply better, worse, or the same as an average card from the top of your deck?
I'd say comply is slightly worse than an average card from a good deck. This is because the average card from your deck will either be a card that trades with an opponent's card, or a draw spell, both of which as better than a card disadvantage tempo play (which is what comply is). So in that sense failure is a remand that draws you a slightly worse card than the average card from your deck.
The only "advantage" is that failure gets around spells that can't be countered (at least for 2 turns), but I'm not sure that's enough to put it over the bar.
Another advantage is that Comply is better than drawing a land.
Multiples of drake Haven arnt as bad as you make them out to be. Sense each Haven can only be activated once on each cycler, later in the game when you are more likely to have the extra Haven out you should have plenty of extra mana to activate both. It's obviously not a 4 of, and you won't be running enough cyclers to really make it a wincon. It makes combat math a nightmare for your opponent, gives you an easy way to take down walkers without spending a card, and helps augment your gearhulks when you turn the corner and go for the win.
Concerning Censor, this card is amazing. Keep it in your opening hand, but once the opponent starts getting 4+ mana you can cycle it away. Keep in mind, the absolute most competitive decks in standard absolutely need to play on curve, Vehicles, combo, etc... these decks will be actively trying to tap out in the early turns, which is where Censor will shine. and you know what, if opponent plays a Gideon with 5 lands in play, just cycle it away and use Cast Out to deal with the Gideon.
Concerning Drake Haven, I'm much more doubtful of it. I haven't tested it much, but I see it as something similar to Metallurgic Summonings or even from an older standard Skywise Teachings. I've always viewed these cards as basically win more cards. If you have the time and freedom to durdle around a turn or 2 to get an engine like this online, then odds are you were probably going to win the game anyways. Yes, Haven can come down on turn 3, but it does nothing the turn it comes down, and you're really not going to see much value out of it until later turns.
I think if we're going to aim to have a heavy cycle deck, we want something more akin to a graveyard payoff, rather than a specific cycling payoff. I actually really need to look into Frontier, because Delve + cycle is among the best combinations ever. Alas, we have no delve, so I see cards like Bedlam Reveler, Cryptic Serpent, and Enigma Drake as the potential big payoffs for a heavy cycling deck.
Compare this to something like the Gearhulk engine, which flashes back card draw and presents a reasonable clock, I just find Gearhulk to be the preferred engine of control decks right now. I would love to be proven wrong on that though.
I think control will be esper auras using sram toolbox and finishing on mechanized production hitting--probably deadlock trap. So much good disruption and so many good cheap auras including the curses and cartouches. Too easy to one-for-one fair decks and sideboard colors are perfect to bring in catch all answers like gideons intervention, yahennis expertise or barals expertise, don't forget toolbox of open the armory for cast out or imprisoned in the moon. Fast aggro or pure control might win game one but then you can move off into transformation sideboard
It's not an engine you spend a turn or two durdling setting up. It's three mana you pay when you can hold open extra mana for an answer. The same as basicly every other sorcery speed thing you play in tap out control. Turn 5 you play it with a counterspell up, if they don't play something important you cycle a spell and use the second mana to make a drake. Simple and mana efficient.
Failure/Comply is certainly worth testing. In the best case, Failure/Comply is worth two time walks, where both halves are just as easy to cast. In the early turns, it's a tempo card that buys you turns. Along with Censor, can mess up the opponent's curve. Late game if the opponent is in top deck mode (after you've securely controlled the game), F/C provides a soft lock.
Regarding cataracts, I like the idea (someone posted an awaken driven deck a few posts up). But there are some powerful answers: Exile effects like cast out, declaration in stone, stasis snare and (though it sees very little play) crumble to dust.
That's the point, Cast Out as well as something like Anguished Unmaking cannot kill awakened land, because they target non-land permaments. Stasis snare and dec in stone can hit them for sure though. I'm still sceptical against cataract awaken plan. I just much rather played something like Sphinx of the Final Word. I just don't like Cataracts. Colorless land that's a big filter later (when you already have your mana set) is not something i really need this standard.
It's not an engine you spend a turn or two durdling setting up. It's three mana you pay when you can hold open extra mana for an answer. The same as basicly every other sorcery speed thing you play in tap out control. Turn 5 you play it with a counterspell up, if they don't play something important you cycle a spell and use the second mana to make a drake. Simple and mana efficient.
Yes, but the difference is that the 3 mana sorcery speed plays a control deck would make (on turn 5 or 6, because you need to keep shields up) are impactful on their own. Example: turn 5, play haven, pass. Opponent plays land, does nothing worth countering/removing, you cycle (assuming you have a cycler, which was part of my argument), pay 1 mana and get a 2/2. So you effectively payed 4 to get a 2/2 flying token... that's not the greatest turn 5 play in this day and age. If I'm going to pay 3 mana for a permanent that does nothing on it's own, tower is probably the strongest play. Its a matter of testing, maybe in a couple of months I'll be proven very wrong, but I feel haven is more of a "combo/midrange" buildaround than a control buildaround.
Bottom line: I think the haven is a very powerful card, but I think it is a card that other archetypes are more interested in tha control (fwiw: Raph levy posted some drake decks in tcgplayer. HIs zombie/have decks that look great at extrating full value, and by comparison the control decks seem much weaker)
Not sure if anyone is checking out red, but Sweltering Suns looks amazing, basically Anger of the Gods, but with no exile, however the cycling is huge. Also, Magma Spray looks pretty nice against Scrounger.
Also, I'm considering the potential for main decking Forsake the Worldly. A clean answer to tower, scrounger, vehicles, and opposing Cast Outs. In matchups where its bad, so something like combo, just cycle it away.
So here's the list I just posted. I really like new liliana as a finisher alongside gearhulk. I also really, really want to use commit // memory, but I'm afraid it's just too slow and janky. But the effects of it are so cool. I'm torn.
Everyone seems pretty sure standard is going to be fast, and I don't think you have enough to answer an aggro deck.
May be wrong about that, but more concerning for me is the mana base. 12/25 lands always enter tapped and 4 more entered tapped sometimes, and always will any turn you really need to draw a land. You are going to spend every game playing a turn behind and I don't think it will work
Yeah I think after playtesting I need to cut down the mana base.
Anyways, in the esper list I posted, liliana, death's majesty is insane as a wincon. Her +1 is very very good, but her real synergy is with torrential gearhulk. I playtested about 6 matches, and in almost all of those I won off a reanimated gearhulk + the fatal push/hieroglyphic illuminations that followed.
pull from tomorrow is also probably the best card in the deck. It's no sphinx's revelation, but it gets work done. The "downside" isn't really much. We can pitch a creature to reoccure with liliana, or we can toss a spell and gearhulk it back later. Overall this card is just really good.
censor has been massively underhyped. It absolutely wrecks most curves, and you can topdeck it lategame without much worry. The topdeck aspect makes it far better than disallow.
spell quellers is also key to the deck. It absolutely obliterates any attempt of curving out for your opponent. Don't be afraid to cast it with no targets. I've gotten some very good combat steps in by flashing it out as an unexpected blocker. It also helps control the board.
Overall I feel this deck is quite strong, but games can run a bit long. I've also seen some lists running cards like part the waterveil as an awaken wincon. I want to test that, but my key concern is that your opponent just hits it with an exile.
I was thinking going Esper, the main reason of course being Fatal Push. U/W just has no early interaction and push is the card for just that. If however, we're going 3 colors, then I think there should be no double costed w or b spells at least until 5cmc, so I would just replace Stasis Snare with Anguished Unmaking, which makes the requirements for white a little easier. I would also skip grasp and murder, and just have whatever Cancel you prefer be your only double colored card. When we get past 4 cmc costed spells, and with 4 Illuminations, the mana requirements start to loosen up.
Also, your top end seems a little high. 4 Liliannas, 4 Pull from tomorrows, and 3 Gearhulks. I would trim down to maybe 2 Liliannas and 2 Pulls. Also, this hasn't been discussed, but I'm still debating between pull from tomorrow and Confirm Suspicions. Pull is a little better than "spend 6, draw 3", but suspicions is a counter spell that essentially gives you a free card that says "spend 6, draw 3". The real kicker though is being able to flashback suspicions with gearhulk. That being said, if it gets to the real late game and you can pull for something like 8 plus mana, that's just absurd. I'm still slightly leaning towards suspicions, but we will see.
Not only is spell queller a great card, but its synergy with Dusk//Dawn is a little busted. If you manage to draw 2 quellers and a Dusk, you basically force your opponent to over commit to the board, and then you get to sweep it away while keeping your quellers alive. Then, later on, you get to return 2 quellers to your hand. Busted!
Keep up the good work, love the deck, if I have time later I'll try and see if I can get a workable mana base.
After testing some early drafts of UW Control I am really impressed. I currently play Approach list trying to blank removal game 1. Immolating glare is not Fatal Push, but backed by counters and fumigate (4 of because I'm crazy, don't judge me) AND a lot of lifegain (between Blessed Alliance, Renewed Faith, Fumigate and 1st approach it gets uggly sometimes). Also dilluting only 4 slots for win condition (1 jace, 1 kefnet, 2 approach) lets me play more card draw and interaction. I wanted to note some things:
1. Cycle lands. I always for last year felt mana screwed with control. Hitting land drops 5 and 6 was hard at times. Then if I played 27 or more, number od games where I flooded was too big. Not anymore. I play 28 lands, 8 of which cycle (4 produce offcolor mana, but who cares), plus 10 other cycle cards, and it just feels like different deck type. Screws and floods are mostly gone. Amazing!
2. Censor. Oh boy I undervalued this card. It's doing what Rebuff never could. I was angry at no miscalculation, but censor is enough.
3. One of Kefnet. He is bad on turn 3, but having a mana sink later is valuable. Also picking up cycle lands is just gas. Not too hard to setup his activation inside combat as well. One seems fine.
4. Cast out. Gets the job done. Really good.
5. Approach of the second sun. Some games I would win if it was gearhulk, some I wouldn't win at all. Weird card. I want to kind of surprise my LGS on day 1 with it, and then see if it's worth it. Gearhulks in sideboard feel alright though.
If metagame evolves later, it might be correct to splash either Fatal Push or Magma Spray and this cycling sweeper. I'm open to do that, but I want my deck to be consistent early in the format, hence pure UW. I also love to gain life, that's why not UB.
This is what I want to build and test. As a veteran of Rift-Slide and Eternal Slide I would really like to see another workable cycling deck in standard so naturally I'm pretty hot on drake haven.
Has anyone seen or tried out that Mono U Control list that Chapin posted in his SCG Taking Control article? I have been playing it the past couple of days and I've been thoroughly impressed. Given all the counter magic, control mirrors almost seem like a bye. Additionally, against aggressive strategies you just counter the things that matter and grind them out. The deck sort of plays out like the elixir control decks of old (obviously not as good) where you play a long game one and just try not to die before time runs out.
Has anyone seen or tried out that Mono U Control list that Chapin posted in his SCG Taking Control article? I have been playing it the past couple of days and I've been thoroughly impressed. Given all the counter magic, control mirrors almost seem like a bye. Additionally, against aggressive strategies you just counter the things that matter and grind them out. The deck sort of plays out like the elixir control decks of old (obviously not as good) where you play a long game one and just try not to die before time runs out.
Yeah, I don't have premium so I'm not sure what list you mean. With the spoiling of censor I thought about a countermagic-based mono U deck. But the problem is that there are no good answers to resolved permanents. There is no perilous vault or Nevinyrral's Disk to clean up resolved permanents. How does Chapin get around this?
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I do think that the Drake Haven control deck seems strongest on paper, though. You get to freely run 4 copies each of Cast Out and Censor. Censor seems super undervalued; I know folks are salty it isn't Miscalculation but it's an easy cantrip that opponents have to respect less you use it to counter their stuff and gain huge tempo. If your deck has any amount of Havens, I feel like it should run 4 Censors. Early game counters and exiles are crucial in a format of Vehicles, Planeswalkers, and Indestructible Gods.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I agree that censor is undervalued. I'm skeptical of haven as a win con. Here is my reasoning:
The card on it's own does nothing. It needs other cards (and mana) to "do something". How many cards that on their own do nothing can a control deck run in this std? Also, it is bad in multiples* so this means that running 4 is a definite no-no for me (*if you could activate each haven only once per turn, then multiples are good; but as it is, a single one can be activated as much as you like, so the second is really dead). In order for haven to be the real deal, one of two things need to be true: (1) a few activations should be enough to generate a seizable advantage (so as to decrease the negative effect of it doing nothing on its own) you up, or (2) you should run a dedicated cycle cards so you can reliably turn on haven every other turn. There are good cycle cards out there (like censor) but I'm skeptical control can really run too many cycle cards (I posted some ideas revolving around 10 cycle cards, but that won't be enough to reliably trigger haven).
Regarding cataracts, I like the idea (someone posted an awaken driven deck a few posts up). But there are some powerful answers: Exile effects like cast out, declaration in stone, stasis snare and (though it sees very little play) crumble to dust. Also, edicts are a thing (to the slaughter being the strongest). None of these cards see too much play, so week 1-4 this could be a decent late game. But I'd doubt this could be a reliable end game if it becomes the wincon of choice.
Another advantage is that Comply is better than drawing a land.
It is not a wincon, it's a value engine.
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Concerning Drake Haven, I'm much more doubtful of it. I haven't tested it much, but I see it as something similar to Metallurgic Summonings or even from an older standard Skywise Teachings. I've always viewed these cards as basically win more cards. If you have the time and freedom to durdle around a turn or 2 to get an engine like this online, then odds are you were probably going to win the game anyways. Yes, Haven can come down on turn 3, but it does nothing the turn it comes down, and you're really not going to see much value out of it until later turns.
I think if we're going to aim to have a heavy cycle deck, we want something more akin to a graveyard payoff, rather than a specific cycling payoff. I actually really need to look into Frontier, because Delve + cycle is among the best combinations ever. Alas, we have no delve, so I see cards like Bedlam Reveler, Cryptic Serpent, and Enigma Drake as the potential big payoffs for a heavy cycling deck.
Compare this to something like the Gearhulk engine, which flashes back card draw and presents a reasonable clock, I just find Gearhulk to be the preferred engine of control decks right now. I would love to be proven wrong on that though.
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........................
That's the point, Cast Out as well as something like Anguished Unmaking cannot kill awakened land, because they target non-land permaments. Stasis snare and dec in stone can hit them for sure though. I'm still sceptical against cataract awaken plan. I just much rather played something like Sphinx of the Final Word. I just don't like Cataracts. Colorless land that's a big filter later (when you already have your mana set) is not something i really need this standard.
Yes, but the difference is that the 3 mana sorcery speed plays a control deck would make (on turn 5 or 6, because you need to keep shields up) are impactful on their own. Example: turn 5, play haven, pass. Opponent plays land, does nothing worth countering/removing, you cycle (assuming you have a cycler, which was part of my argument), pay 1 mana and get a 2/2. So you effectively payed 4 to get a 2/2 flying token... that's not the greatest turn 5 play in this day and age. If I'm going to pay 3 mana for a permanent that does nothing on it's own, tower is probably the strongest play. Its a matter of testing, maybe in a couple of months I'll be proven very wrong, but I feel haven is more of a "combo/midrange" buildaround than a control buildaround.
Bottom line: I think the haven is a very powerful card, but I think it is a card that other archetypes are more interested in tha control (fwiw: Raph levy posted some drake decks in tcgplayer. HIs zombie/have decks that look great at extrating full value, and by comparison the control decks seem much weaker)
Also, I'm considering the potential for main decking Forsake the Worldly. A clean answer to tower, scrounger, vehicles, and opposing Cast Outs. In matchups where its bad, so something like combo, just cycle it away.
So here's the list I just posted. I really like new liliana as a finisher alongside gearhulk. I also really, really want to use commit // memory, but I'm afraid it's just too slow and janky. But the effects of it are so cool. I'm torn.
May be wrong about that, but more concerning for me is the mana base. 12/25 lands always enter tapped and 4 more entered tapped sometimes, and always will any turn you really need to draw a land. You are going to spend every game playing a turn behind and I don't think it will work
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Anyways, in the esper list I posted, liliana, death's majesty is insane as a wincon. Her +1 is very very good, but her real synergy is with torrential gearhulk. I playtested about 6 matches, and in almost all of those I won off a reanimated gearhulk + the fatal push/hieroglyphic illuminations that followed.
pull from tomorrow is also probably the best card in the deck. It's no sphinx's revelation, but it gets work done. The "downside" isn't really much. We can pitch a creature to reoccure with liliana, or we can toss a spell and gearhulk it back later. Overall this card is just really good.
censor has been massively underhyped. It absolutely wrecks most curves, and you can topdeck it lategame without much worry. The topdeck aspect makes it far better than disallow.
spell quellers is also key to the deck. It absolutely obliterates any attempt of curving out for your opponent. Don't be afraid to cast it with no targets. I've gotten some very good combat steps in by flashing it out as an unexpected blocker. It also helps control the board.
Overall I feel this deck is quite strong, but games can run a bit long. I've also seen some lists running cards like part the waterveil as an awaken wincon. I want to test that, but my key concern is that your opponent just hits it with an exile.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/620024#paper
Also, your top end seems a little high. 4 Liliannas, 4 Pull from tomorrows, and 3 Gearhulks. I would trim down to maybe 2 Liliannas and 2 Pulls. Also, this hasn't been discussed, but I'm still debating between pull from tomorrow and Confirm Suspicions. Pull is a little better than "spend 6, draw 3", but suspicions is a counter spell that essentially gives you a free card that says "spend 6, draw 3". The real kicker though is being able to flashback suspicions with gearhulk. That being said, if it gets to the real late game and you can pull for something like 8 plus mana, that's just absurd. I'm still slightly leaning towards suspicions, but we will see.
Not only is spell queller a great card, but its synergy with Dusk//Dawn is a little busted. If you manage to draw 2 quellers and a Dusk, you basically force your opponent to over commit to the board, and then you get to sweep it away while keeping your quellers alive. Then, later on, you get to return 2 quellers to your hand. Busted!
Keep up the good work, love the deck, if I have time later I'll try and see if I can get a workable mana base.
1. Cycle lands. I always for last year felt mana screwed with control. Hitting land drops 5 and 6 was hard at times. Then if I played 27 or more, number od games where I flooded was too big. Not anymore. I play 28 lands, 8 of which cycle (4 produce offcolor mana, but who cares), plus 10 other cycle cards, and it just feels like different deck type. Screws and floods are mostly gone. Amazing!
2. Censor. Oh boy I undervalued this card. It's doing what Rebuff never could. I was angry at no miscalculation, but censor is enough.
3. One of Kefnet. He is bad on turn 3, but having a mana sink later is valuable. Also picking up cycle lands is just gas. Not too hard to setup his activation inside combat as well. One seems fine.
4. Cast out. Gets the job done. Really good.
5. Approach of the second sun. Some games I would win if it was gearhulk, some I wouldn't win at all. Weird card. I want to kind of surprise my LGS on day 1 with it, and then see if it's worth it. Gearhulks in sideboard feel alright though.
If metagame evolves later, it might be correct to splash either Fatal Push or Magma Spray and this cycling sweeper. I'm open to do that, but I want my deck to be consistent early in the format, hence pure UW. I also love to gain life, that's why not UB.
1x Blighted Cataract
2x Fetid Pools
4x Irrigated Farmland
5x Island
5x Plains
4x Port Town
4x Prairie Stream
2x Scattered Groves
1x Westvale Abbey
Enchantment (4)
2x Cast Out
2x Stasis Snare
2x Blessed Alliance
4x Censor
4x Disallow
3x Glimmer of Genius
2x Hieroglyphic Illumination
2x Immolating Glare
1x Pull from Tomorrow
2x Renewed Faith
Sorcery (6)
2x Approach of the Second Sun
4x Fumigate
Creature (1)
1x Kefnet the Mindful
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1x Archangel Avacyn
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Dovin Baan
2x Forsake the Worldly
1x Gideon's Intervention
2x Negate
1x Pull from Tomorrow
3x Torrential Gearhulk
2x Watchers of the Dead
4 Plains
3 Fetid Pools
4 Irrigated Farmland
4 Prairie Stream
4 Port Town
3 Void Shatter
3 Failure // Comply
1 Unsubstantiate
4 Censor
3 Forsake the Worldly
2 Renewed Faith
4 Hieroglyphic Illumination
4 Drake Haven
3 Fumigate
I haven't played any standard at all so I have no real impression of what the meta could be like other than what I've read on these forums.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Yeah, I don't have premium so I'm not sure what list you mean. With the spoiling of censor I thought about a countermagic-based mono U deck. But the problem is that there are no good answers to resolved permanents. There is no perilous vault or Nevinyrral's Disk to clean up resolved permanents. How does Chapin get around this?