Drake Haven is probably worth considering as a 2-3 of given that with all the discarding going on, for 1 more mana you get a chump blocker, or eventually be able to go wide on value.
Also nudging the manabase for cycling lands gives you a black splash and CopyCat decks currently have no answer for Trespasser's Curse, and even if they did shift to some enchantment removal, it'd soften their match ups against mardu's wincons.
I'm new to the deck, but have tried two Hazoret in the main and it feels pretty good after a handful of games. Beats down and blocks well. I put Fevered Visions in the side. Tried Drake Haven a bit and it felt low-impact. Just seems like too often you're sacrificing an equally good alternate play to make the Drake. Take it with a grain of salt though...just playing against the same midrange deck a bunch of times...Not real testing.
Just played a few games online with Bloodrage Brawler in place of Fevered Visions. Have to say it does make for some explosive early turns. Small sample size, but I think I like it.
Pull from Tomorrow is about the only thing I've considered looking at, myself. I like being able to dig deep late-game, and instant speed makes it nice for those turns where the board has stalled or is empty. Though I reckon it's a tad slow, if you have any Tormenting Voice in the deck, I'd cut them for this.
It's a shame the wording on Embalm means that it doesn't trigger Amalgam, otherwise I would've considered Vizier of Many Faces.
So I've been reading what you all have been posting and talking about. I like Ronnie's build a lot. But I am curious, what are you guys going to do when the oldest block rotates and this deck loses cards, for example, such as Kozilek's Return and Wandering Fumarole ? Does this deck lose major components by them rotating out or is it still a viable option?
This deck will be completly dead when not only BfZ block but also SoI block rotates. We almost lose literally everything, emerge package, zombie package, lightning axe package, fevered visions, manland and more.
Now that Saheeli Rai combo is banned, how will this deck proceed? I'm not really that well educated regarding current standard and what decks (I basically hear 'every deck' but Constrictor decks especially) are forced out of the field due to the combo existing? I think we want to go to a build where Fevered Visions build is on the side and Bloodrage Brawlers in the main. Maybe some Hazoret aswell. Bloodrage Brawler has been great for me in my limited testing, the explosive starts of with it are insane. Also testing out Hazoret but I haven't been able to really play or be impressed by it.
I agree with moving Fevered Visions to the sideboard for the more grindy matchups. Pull from Tomorrow seems like a good late game card but I see it more as a sideboard card. People have been saying Hazoret the Fervent has been underwhelming but I really like the idea of curving into him. However, if Grasp of Darkness becomes prevalent then I'm not so sure Hazoret is the right call in this deck. I plan on playing the rest of this standard cycle with this deck even though I'm mainly a Modern player just because the deck is so fun to play. I'm hoping the new tools the deck provides will help give it a low t1/high t2 status.
Hey, thanks for the endorsement. That list certainly was fun. Early ramp could make the deck feel so good. Unfortunately, it made the deck feel better against decks that it didn't have problems with. And against more problematic decks, it didn't really help. I sadly, said goodbye to my fun little ramp. In its place, I've been playing a playset of Take Inventory. I have to say, I really really like this card, especially since I moved all of my Fevered Visions to the sideboard. Getting that extra boost of fuel in the mid/late game really helps to finish out games. It's decent in the beginning to, being an easy card to pitch to Reunions and Voices. My current list isn't too outlandish, I don't think.
My local meta doesn't make me feel like I need to 'train' my Deep Fiends, so I don't run a full playset, and I don't have Sanctum of Ugin in the list. If it shifts, I go up on Deep Fiends and bring in some Sanctums in the main. So far, that hasn't happened though.
As was already stated, next rotation, this deck is completely dead. Everything rotates. I've really enjoyed playing this list though. Skaabs and Amalgams are pretty much the only creatures in all of standard I've been interested in since I came back to magic (which is when SOI released). I was ecstatic when EMN released and I was able to drop black from my list and add in Advanced Stitchwing and Emerge to the list. The power level shot way up. This deck has been so fun. One of my favorite standard decks ever.
This article was posted in the Esper/UB control thread but also contains a version of this deck you guys might be interested in looking at. Personally, the deck looks really fun and has a lot of potential, if nothing else.
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Has anyone updated this archetype with any of the embalm creatures from Amonkhet?: Vizier of Many Faces and Heart-Piercer Manticore.
Heart-Piercer Manticore looks to provide the deck with some extra reach, but the embalm cost (5R) seems a bit high for what will usually amount to 3 damage. I have noted that in playing this deck, I am finding that I am often capping myself at 5 lands in order to feed the Stitchwing activations (using land cards in-hand to power those activations) while 5 mana also maintains the capability to activate Wandering Fumarole. The 3-toughness does seem a bit weak to Mardu, and I don't think that the 4-power puts enough pressure on Aetherworks Marvel or B/G Delirium.
Vizier of Many Faces has a much more appealing embalm cost (3UU), but there aren't many creatures for which a copy makes this cost efficient. It would be nice to copy Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, but I think that this is a losing race as you don't gain the advantage of the cast trigger to exile two permanents, and you are always behind by one attack. Similarly, one does not get the advantage of the cast triggers on Elder Deep-Fiend. Another good target would be Torrential Gearhulk, but there are not many appealing graveyard targets apart from Fiery Temper.
The only update I've seen that I would actually consider is Drake Haven. I'm not sure what I'd cut for it, but that would be my only change.
Do you have any other input about the matchups?. Im really interested in this deck.
I actually haven't sat down and started building with Drake Haven in the list, but Brad Nelson and Todd Anderson played a few games with a Drake Haven Zombie Emerge deck vs Mardu Vehicles over on SCGs not too terribly long ago. It's up on YouTube.
I was less high on Drake Haven in the list before I saw this video. I thought it would be complete jank in Emerge. But, it looks like it at least deserves some testing.
Has anyone updated this archetype with any of the embalm creatures from Amonkhet?: Vizier of Many Faces and Heart-Piercer Manticore.
Heart-Piercer Manticore looks to provide the deck with some extra reach, but the embalm cost (5R) seems a bit high for what will usually amount to 3 damage. I have noted that in playing this deck, I am finding that I am often capping myself at 5 lands in order to feed the Stitchwing activations (using land cards in-hand to power those activations) while 5 mana also maintains the capability to activate Wandering Fumarole. The 3-toughness does seem a bit weak to Mardu, and I don't think that the 4-power puts enough pressure on Aetherworks Marvel or B/G Delirium.
Vizier of Many Faces has a much more appealing embalm cost (3UU), but there aren't many creatures for which a copy makes this cost efficient. It would be nice to copy Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, but I think that this is a losing race as you don't gain the advantage of the cast trigger to exile two permanents, and you are always behind by one attack. Similarly, one does not get the advantage of the cast triggers on Elder Deep-Fiend. Another good target would be Torrential Gearhulk, but there are not many appealing graveyard targets apart from Fiery Temper.
As I mentioned previously, Embalm doesn't trigger Prized Amalgam which means that we have to then look at the value of the creature itself, and I don't think any of the embalm guys make the cut considering how hard they are on the mana. Another thing to note is that the embalmed sides have no mana cost, which makes them pretty poor Emerge targets for Elder Deep-Fiend.
Oh, and Emblam is sorcery speed, blegh.
Does this deck have any interest in one or two Insult // Injury? It seems like it could be brutal post Deep-Fiend and would really help slam the door with those multi-Amalgam draws.
Insult sounds win-moreish to me.
Injury I could see having some merit as the card is a viable discard target, but how much weight does a sorcery speed Lunge pull when behind?
new on this forum.
yesterday i take this deck and win a gameday on it. off to some bumpy start, lose to R/W aggro and mono Bzombies (kinda expected it since this deck is rather weak to decks that can go on curve)on top 8 i got to face temur RUGaetherworks, U/W second sun and monoB zombies.
i think this deck favored against aetherworks marvel since game 2 you could always sideboard negate and couple of another counter (disallow,void shatter). against aggro, game 1 the odds is not in you favor, but game 2 you can sideboard magma spray and incendiary flow for those pesky zombies and sweltering suns for more board wipes (i maindecked 4 kozilek's return).
unfortunately drake haven is kinda clunky for aggro matchup, always cutting 2 (maindecked 4) but when it's good it's crazy good especially on durdly control matchup (having 2 2/2 drake and 3 power flying zombie + some amalgam end turn is a magical feel).
havent tried bloodrage brawler, on paper its good but 1 think tormenting voice is better.
taking this deck for another spin next week in a local tournament, if you got any interesting new tech please post below
Unfortunately, I was working all weekend and couldn't go to any of the GameDay fun, but I didn't stop playing around with changes to the deck. Sadly, I still didn't find anything in Amonkhet worth adding. As described above, Drake Haven was clunky. All of the aftermath cards were underwhelming. None of them felt better than any of the cards in the deck. I also played around with some more aggressive builds and trying to get something like Flameblade Adept going in the deck, another bust.
While I'm griping about Amonkhet cards, does anyone else feel like they should've skipped printing Censor and just reprinted Complicate instead? That's cycling value!
I don't have any new tech, but I have some old tech. Nagging Thoughts. The last time I actually checked this card out was back pre-Kaladesh, and I haven't really looked into it that hard since then. At the time, the main 3 options for early discard in the deck were Cathartic Reunion, Tormenting Voice and Insolent Neonate. With so few options to get opening hand zombies into the GY, Nagging thoughts just wasn't getting the job done for me. However, since Kaladesh came out and Key to the City came with it, my opinions of Tormening Voice have steadily gone down. I immediately valued it lower than Key (although, I never wanted more than 1 Key in the deck). Since that time, I've been giving more and more thought to where Tormenting Voice fits in.
Aside from opening hand discard, I think it's worse than every other sifting/drawing effect we have open to us. The first Tormenting Voice is better than the 1st Take Inventory, but after that it's much worse. A Tormenting Voice in the opening hand is better than Nagging Thoughts in the opening hand, but after that, Nagging Thoughts is categorically better. That said, Tormenting Voice has been dropped from my build entirely.
I'm going to run Nagging Thoughts in that spot and see how it goes. So far, the results seem promising. I like that after the opening hand, it digs 2 cards deep like Tormenting Voice. I also always hated discarding Tormenting Voice to Cathartic Reunion or zombies. Now, I can happily toss it and dig even deeper into the deck. Finally, it's not a dead card as a hellbent top-deck. That's one of the worst feelings in this deck, empty-handed knowing you need to rip something good, only to pull a Voice/Reunion and knowing you need another turn just to turn it on. Well, I'm cutting that feeling in half!
Here's my most recent list. I'm pretty happy with it so far, but it'll take some tourney play to see how it really plays!
Same as always. Dig deep into the deck with several 2 mana sifters/drawers and find the pieces. I'm back to having more main deck Lightning Axes than I have in the recent past as my local meta is turning slightly back towards aggro. Still mostly combo and control though. Mostly Marvel and Draw-Go here, so 4 main deck counters. If aggro continues to become more prominent, those instant numbers will shift to more removal in the main, but right now I feel I'm in a good mix.
Broken Concentration continues to be nuts. The tempo swings that come off zombies + counterspell or removal + counterspell is insane. It's such a strong play that always manages to turn the game around when I'm behind. It's also great with Key to the City. It feels like a 1-sided Dream Fracture or half a Cryptic Command. Ok, maybe it's not that good, but it's a pretty good use of mana.
I have 1 more gripe. There are 7 sets in standard and red STILL doesn't have instant speed artifact destruction. White has instant speed artifact EXILE and red can't even get a freakin Shatter. There's no justice in the world (and there never was).
thanks for the advice, gonna have to shift trough junk pile for a couple of nagging thoughts.
about counter suite, now i'm packing 4 negate, 1 disallow, 1 void shatter, 2 dispel, and 2 censor.
i feel counter suite could be better but i need inputs
disallow is especially good against marvel since if you cant counter the marvel you can counter its activation, but the drawback is it cost 1UU void shatter is universal counter and have an added edge against zombies but the drawback is the same as disallow. ceremonious rejection cost U but it is narrow and only effective against marvel deck. dispelis powerful but unfortunately sometimes it does nothing to non control matchup. censoris a knee jerk reaction, but looking back i never side in this card (initially its in the mainboard but i sided it out for magma spray) reduce//rubblecost 2U but the aftermath could have some upside, but is it really worth it?
right now my meta is invested with aggro decks so i need to make room for more sweltering suns
current sideboard
4 negate
2 censor
1 disallow
1 void shatter
1 sweltering suns
4 incendiary flow
2 magma spray
any thoughts on collective defiance for this deck? seems like a cookie cutter with the 3 modes
I actually like Collective Defiance in a lot of matchups, but against aggro, it's kind of slow. You pretty much have to take your whole 3rd turn off to kill something. I had it in my build for a long time, and actually won matches with it, but in the end, I decided I like Lightning Axe better.
I'm not sure what counterspell package is best. I've always like Broken Concentration because sometimes the madness is relevant, but in a non-madness scenario, it's the 4th or 5th best hard counter in standard. I know that in this deck I prefer Disallow over Void Shatter. I can't think of many non-creature spells I want exiled in standard. Commit // Memory is one, but I don't see a ton of it. I think as the season goes on, there will be more of it, but we're not there yet. And then for creatures I want exiled, they all have less than 4 cmc. If I'm keeping Void Shatter in for the Zombie matchup, then I would rather have Horribly Awry.
As for adding in another Sweltering Suns, I would just go down to 3 Incendiary Flow. I'm not sure of what your main deck looks like, but I assume a playset of Cathartic Reunions and some number of Tormenting Voice or Nagging Thoughts. That's plenty of card draw to make 3 feel like 4. I don't think dropping down to 3 will hurt your match up so much since you're replacing it with another sweeper.
this decklist is configured to fight a dense aggro metagame. i droppeddispeland switched it with ceremonious rejection in the sideboard because this deck is already strong vs control, ceremonious rejection is there for aetherworks marvel. 2 drake haven in the sideboard is for control matchup, i know i said the card is clunky but it provide huge firepower against control decks and actually usable in other matchup. fevered visions are something you wouldnt wan to cast in heavy aggro and marvel metagame. the rest is just anti aggro countermeasures.
taking this deck weekly shop tournament tommorow, i will post the result later.
pondering on hazoret the fervent, she might be an effective beater and finisher but people now have confiscation coup in their sideboard which make hazoret dangerous for ourselves.
I don't like Ceremonious Rejection, or Negate as my main counter. The reason is because they don't hit Torrential Gearhulk. While we generally have a good matchup against control decks, resolved Gearhulks are hard to deal with.
I use Fevered Visions in the same way as you use Drake Haven. Only for control.
Why the singleton Aether Hub and all of the evolving wilds? You'd probably be better of with UR ETB tapped lands. That's better than evolving wilds.
thanks for the input.
i totally forgot torrential gearhulk, my bad. thank you for reminding me. handling the snap robot is a problem because of their high toughness.
at the last tournament i killed the robot using lightning axe after it block one of my prized amalgam
for artifact removal should i use release the gremlins or by force?
regarding the awkward mana base, aether hub act as a temporary spirebluff canal because i haven't manage to found the 4th.
the evolving wildsis there largely because i dont want to spend money on wandering fumarole since that card is rotating soon.
i chose evolving wilds instead of highland lake because of fetch effect and most card in this deck only use U/R except for elder deep-fiend and pull from tomorrow. the only RR spell is sweltering suns.
for now the manabase is working as intended, what do you think? is it worth risking color consictency for 4 fetch effect?
doesn't run so hot on tournament today ended up 2-3.
tournament report:
round 1: mono B zombies 1-2 loss
game 1 was tough, opponent was on curve and i managed to hold on but liliana's mastery is a pain in the ass.
game 2 was easier since the opponent didn't cast any 2 drop, sweltering suns and drake haven ended the game quickly.
game 3 i mulliganed to 5 and didn't draw sweeper despite packing 4 kozilek's return and 3 sweltering suns
round 2: RUG temur aetherworks 2-1 win
game 1 was close but i cant close the game because of multiple Woodweaver's Puzzleknot and nissa's renewal via marvel activation he managed to cast ulamog back to back and its off to game 2
game 2 was a breeze since i have a solid counter suit for his aetherworks marvel. negated 2 of his marvel and then he scoop.
game 3 he switched his strategy to beatdown with tireless tracker, and bristling hydra. drakes wreck havoc on his live total and when he cast whirler virtuoso with 21 energy, elder deep-fiend seal the deal by tapping his thopters.
round 3: BWG Abzan 1-2 loss
game 1 mana screwed to oblivion, keep a 2 lander and didnt draw another land. sigh
game 2 2 prized amalgam and 1 stitchwing skaab on turn 3 ended the game quickly
game 3 mana screwed again kept a 2 lander hand with stitchwing skaab and advanced stitchwing, sadly i keep drawing island and without red source i can only managed so much, drawn a red source on turn 6 and cast several cathartic reunion during the following turns. 2 cathartic reunion and 1 nagging thoughts net 0 zombies to reanimate which is frustating. with 0 defense his hissing quagmire takes the last bite.
round 5: RG energy 2-0 win
game 1 i keep an opening hand with 2 kozilek's return, blow up his board and he is out of gas, gg
game 2 i keep a 2 lander hand with a sweltering suns. color screwed for a few turn but i managed to cast kozilek's return and reanimate advanced stitchwing followed by emerging elder deep-fiend in the following turn. 5 damage is more than enough to kill a fresh bristling hydra. and it goes awry for my opponent from there.
somehow the nagging thoughts didn't work out for me. maybe i need to play with it a bit more.
another glaring problem is we dont have removal for 4 toughness creature other than lightning axe, maybe we could use collective defiance here?
many times magma spray become a dead card in matchup other than zombie.
didn't encounter control deck but there is two people running UR in this tournament
You mentioned you have an aggro heavy meta, I would probably drop Drake Haven completely from the MD. I think you have enough game against control G1 with your resurrecting zombies that you won't miss it in those match ups and having some extra aggro helping cards would make more difference.
I think I'd also cut out Pull From Tomorrow, too. Don't get me wrong, it's a strong card. I find, however, when I'm playing, I don't typically sit at a very high land count. I probably pitch as many lands as I play. Unless I draw and play my single Key to the City, I don't finish the game with a very high land count.
I'd probably just choose cards that affect the board state in those 3 slots. Most likely Fiery Temper.
I'm also not a huge fan of Magma Spray either. For the random x/2s, I just let sweepers handle them. For Dread Wanderer, Scrapheap Scrounger, and in the mirror, I prefer Incendiary Flow. I know a lot of times that means I take an extra 3 on the attack, but I've used 3 burn from Flow to finish games. I enjoy that extra utility.
Out of curiosity, which x/4+'s are you finding hard to deal with? A lot of those could probably be dealt with by counterspell. The ones that come to mind for me are Gearhulks and pumped up creatures (by Winding Constrictor, Diregraf Colossus with many zombies in the yard, Thalia's Lieutenant with lots of humans afterwards, etc). In most of those cases, Collective Defiance won't help you because they either grow faster than you can shoot them down or they came into play that big. Counterspells are best option. More eccentric options like Imprisoned in the Moon also exist. There's also plenty of enchantments along the same lines that will keep a troublesome creature tapped down. The final solution I would suggest is something that steals offending card. Confiscation Coup or something along those lines.
I don't think you can look at Nagging Thoughts as a great card. It's an average card. However, I do think it's much better than Tormenting Voice. Tormenting Voice has very specific scenarios where it's better than Nagging Thoughts. I think those are:
Zombie in hand and no other discard outlet
Madness Enabler
Blue mana screwed
Outside of those very specific situations, Nagging Thoughts is going to be better.
Digs just as deep as Tormenting Voice
Has Madness
Much better top deck
And I can't stress that last benefit enough. Everyone who's played this deck has been in the situation where you're empty handed, you top deck that Tormenting Voice, and you can't cast it. It's infuriating. With Nagging Thoughts, you just play the card, dig 2 cards now and have a chance of getting what you need THIS TURN! There are other worse scenarios Tormenting Voice has put me in too. Such as I hellbent top decked a Tormenting Voice last turn and the card I draw this turn is one of the few cards in the deck I'd hate to discard. Or when you just draw that hand with multiple copies of Tormenting Voice/Cathartic Reunion and it just feels so bad to pitch those good digging cards, but you have to anyway.
I'd suggest playing with it more. If you really pay attention, you'll come across a lot of draws where you're glad it wasn't a Tormenting Voice.
And you should definitely play with a single Key to the City over all of those cards, including Cathartic Reunion. Every turn looting is much better than a single turn of 3 cards then nothing for who knows however many turns. The only issue I've ever had with Key to the City is having a 2nd one seems bad. That's why I have settled on only putting 1 in the deck.
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Also nudging the manabase for cycling lands gives you a black splash and CopyCat decks currently have no answer for Trespasser's Curse, and even if they did shift to some enchantment removal, it'd soften their match ups against mardu's wincons.
It's a shame the wording on Embalm means that it doesn't trigger Amalgam, otherwise I would've considered Vizier of Many Faces.
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
Now that Saheeli Rai combo is banned, how will this deck proceed? I'm not really that well educated regarding current standard and what decks (I basically hear 'every deck' but Constrictor decks especially) are forced out of the field due to the combo existing? I think we want to go to a build where Fevered Visions build is on the side and Bloodrage Brawlers in the main. Maybe some Hazoret aswell. Bloodrage Brawler has been great for me in my limited testing, the explosive starts of with it are insane. Also testing out Hazoret but I haven't been able to really play or be impressed by it.
4 Advanced Stitchwing
4 Bloodrage Brawler
4 Elder Deep-Fiend
2 Hazoret the Fervent
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stitchwing Skaab
2 Wretched Gryff
Instants (6)
4 Kozilek's Return
2 Lightning Axe
4 Cathartic Reunion
2 Tormenting Voice
Land (24)
2 Highland Lake
6 Island
4 Mountain
4 Sanctum of Ugin
4 Spirebluff Canal
4 Wandering Fumarole
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Dispel
2 Reduce // Rubble
4 Fevered Visions
2 Lightning Axe
2 Magma Spray
2 Negate
I agree with moving Fevered Visions to the sideboard for the more grindy matchups. Pull from Tomorrow seems like a good late game card but I see it more as a sideboard card. People have been saying Hazoret the Fervent has been underwhelming but I really like the idea of curving into him. However, if Grasp of Darkness becomes prevalent then I'm not so sure Hazoret is the right call in this deck. I plan on playing the rest of this standard cycle with this deck even though I'm mainly a Modern player just because the deck is so fun to play. I'm hoping the new tools the deck provides will help give it a low t1/high t2 status.
4 Advanced Stichwing
2 Elder Deep-Fiend
1 Geralf's Masterpiece
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Stitchwing Skaab
Artifacts 1
1 Key to the City
Instants 9
3 Broken Concentration
4 Fiery Temper
2 Kozilek's Return
4 Cathartic Reunion
2 Collective Defiance
4 Take Inventory
4 Tormenting Voice
Lands 22
4 Drownyard Temple
4 Highland Lake
3 Island
3 Mountain
4 Spirebluff Canal
4 Wandering Fumarole
1 Elder Deep-Fiend
1 Geralf's Masterpiece
2 Fevered Visions
2 Compelling Deterrence
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Lightning Axe
2 Negate
2 Summary Dismissal
2 Release the Gremlins
My local meta doesn't make me feel like I need to 'train' my Deep Fiends, so I don't run a full playset, and I don't have Sanctum of Ugin in the list. If it shifts, I go up on Deep Fiends and bring in some Sanctums in the main. So far, that hasn't happened though.
As was already stated, next rotation, this deck is completely dead. Everything rotates. I've really enjoyed playing this list though. Skaabs and Amalgams are pretty much the only creatures in all of standard I've been interested in since I came back to magic (which is when SOI released). I was ecstatic when EMN released and I was able to drop black from my list and add in Advanced Stitchwing and Emerge to the list. The power level shot way up. This deck has been so fun. One of my favorite standard decks ever.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Heart-Piercer Manticore looks to provide the deck with some extra reach, but the embalm cost (5R) seems a bit high for what will usually amount to 3 damage. I have noted that in playing this deck, I am finding that I am often capping myself at 5 lands in order to feed the Stitchwing activations (using land cards in-hand to power those activations) while 5 mana also maintains the capability to activate Wandering Fumarole. The 3-toughness does seem a bit weak to Mardu, and I don't think that the 4-power puts enough pressure on Aetherworks Marvel or B/G Delirium.
Vizier of Many Faces has a much more appealing embalm cost (3UU), but there aren't many creatures for which a copy makes this cost efficient. It would be nice to copy Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger, but I think that this is a losing race as you don't gain the advantage of the cast trigger to exile two permanents, and you are always behind by one attack. Similarly, one does not get the advantage of the cast triggers on Elder Deep-Fiend. Another good target would be Torrential Gearhulk, but there are not many appealing graveyard targets apart from Fiery Temper.
Do you have any other input about the matchups?. Im really interested in this deck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHjVj-orKy0&index=4&list=PL5d1KNNFArSPiU3vDwsH3dNtMGVm7Ldmd
I was less high on Drake Haven in the list before I saw this video. I thought it would be complete jank in Emerge. But, it looks like it at least deserves some testing.
As I mentioned previously, Embalm doesn't trigger Prized Amalgam which means that we have to then look at the value of the creature itself, and I don't think any of the embalm guys make the cut considering how hard they are on the mana. Another thing to note is that the embalmed sides have no mana cost, which makes them pretty poor Emerge targets for Elder Deep-Fiend.
Oh, and Emblam is sorcery speed, blegh.
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
Injury I could see having some merit as the card is a viable discard target, but how much weight does a sorcery speed Lunge pull when behind?
Standard:
UR Ral Combo
Modern:
U Merfolk
R Goblins
Commander
RB Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
R Feldon of the Third Path
yesterday i take this deck and win a gameday on it. off to some bumpy start, lose to R/W aggro and mono Bzombies (kinda expected it since this deck is rather weak to decks that can go on curve)on top 8 i got to face temur RUGaetherworks, U/W second sun and monoB zombies.
i think this deck favored against aetherworks marvel since game 2 you could always sideboard negate and couple of another counter (disallow,void shatter). against aggro, game 1 the odds is not in you favor, but game 2 you can sideboard magma spray and incendiary flow for those pesky zombies and sweltering suns for more board wipes (i maindecked 4 kozilek's return).
unfortunately drake haven is kinda clunky for aggro matchup, always cutting 2 (maindecked 4) but when it's good it's crazy good especially on durdly control matchup (having 2 2/2 drake and 3 power flying zombie + some amalgam end turn is a magical feel).
havent tried bloodrage brawler, on paper its good but 1 think tormenting voice is better.
taking this deck for another spin next week in a local tournament, if you got any interesting new tech please post below
thanks
While I'm griping about Amonkhet cards, does anyone else feel like they should've skipped printing Censor and just reprinted Complicate instead? That's cycling value!
I don't have any new tech, but I have some old tech. Nagging Thoughts. The last time I actually checked this card out was back pre-Kaladesh, and I haven't really looked into it that hard since then. At the time, the main 3 options for early discard in the deck were Cathartic Reunion, Tormenting Voice and Insolent Neonate. With so few options to get opening hand zombies into the GY, Nagging thoughts just wasn't getting the job done for me. However, since Kaladesh came out and Key to the City came with it, my opinions of Tormening Voice have steadily gone down. I immediately valued it lower than Key (although, I never wanted more than 1 Key in the deck). Since that time, I've been giving more and more thought to where Tormenting Voice fits in.
Aside from opening hand discard, I think it's worse than every other sifting/drawing effect we have open to us. The first Tormenting Voice is better than the 1st Take Inventory, but after that it's much worse. A Tormenting Voice in the opening hand is better than Nagging Thoughts in the opening hand, but after that, Nagging Thoughts is categorically better. That said, Tormenting Voice has been dropped from my build entirely.
I'm going to run Nagging Thoughts in that spot and see how it goes. So far, the results seem promising. I like that after the opening hand, it digs 2 cards deep like Tormenting Voice. I also always hated discarding Tormenting Voice to Cathartic Reunion or zombies. Now, I can happily toss it and dig even deeper into the deck. Finally, it's not a dead card as a hellbent top-deck. That's one of the worst feelings in this deck, empty-handed knowing you need to rip something good, only to pull a Voice/Reunion and knowing you need another turn just to turn it on. Well, I'm cutting that feeling in half!
Here's my most recent list. I'm pretty happy with it so far, but it'll take some tourney play to see how it really plays!
3 Advanced Stitchwing
3 Elder Deep-Fiend
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Stitchwing Skaab
Artifacts 1
1 Key to the City
Instants 10
4 Broken Concentration
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Lightning Axe
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Nagging Thoughts
4 Take Inventory
Lands 24
8 Island
8 Mountain
4 Spirebluff Canal
4 Wandering Fumarole
2 Fevered Visions
2 Compelling Deterrence
4 Fiery Temper
1 Lightning Axe
3 Negate
1 Summary Dismissal
2 Release the Gremlins
Same as always. Dig deep into the deck with several 2 mana sifters/drawers and find the pieces. I'm back to having more main deck Lightning Axes than I have in the recent past as my local meta is turning slightly back towards aggro. Still mostly combo and control though. Mostly Marvel and Draw-Go here, so 4 main deck counters. If aggro continues to become more prominent, those instant numbers will shift to more removal in the main, but right now I feel I'm in a good mix.
Broken Concentration continues to be nuts. The tempo swings that come off zombies + counterspell or removal + counterspell is insane. It's such a strong play that always manages to turn the game around when I'm behind. It's also great with Key to the City. It feels like a 1-sided Dream Fracture or half a Cryptic Command. Ok, maybe it's not that good, but it's a pretty good use of mana.
I have 1 more gripe. There are 7 sets in standard and red STILL doesn't have instant speed artifact destruction. White has instant speed artifact EXILE and red can't even get a freakin Shatter. There's no justice in the world (and there never was).
about counter suite, now i'm packing 4 negate, 1 disallow, 1 void shatter, 2 dispel, and 2 censor.
i feel counter suite could be better but i need inputs
disallow is especially good against marvel since if you cant counter the marvel you can counter its activation, but the drawback is it cost 1UU
void shatter is universal counter and have an added edge against zombies but the drawback is the same as disallow.
ceremonious rejection cost U but it is narrow and only effective against marvel deck.
dispelis powerful but unfortunately sometimes it does nothing to non control matchup.
censoris a knee jerk reaction, but looking back i never side in this card (initially its in the mainboard but i sided it out for magma spray)
reduce//rubblecost 2U but the aftermath could have some upside, but is it really worth it?
right now my meta is invested with aggro decks so i need to make room for more sweltering suns
current sideboard
4 negate
2 censor
1 disallow
1 void shatter
1 sweltering suns
4 incendiary flow
2 magma spray
any thoughts on collective defiance for this deck? seems like a cookie cutter with the 3 modes
I actually like Collective Defiance in a lot of matchups, but against aggro, it's kind of slow. You pretty much have to take your whole 3rd turn off to kill something. I had it in my build for a long time, and actually won matches with it, but in the end, I decided I like Lightning Axe better.
I'm not sure what counterspell package is best. I've always like Broken Concentration because sometimes the madness is relevant, but in a non-madness scenario, it's the 4th or 5th best hard counter in standard. I know that in this deck I prefer Disallow over Void Shatter. I can't think of many non-creature spells I want exiled in standard. Commit // Memory is one, but I don't see a ton of it. I think as the season goes on, there will be more of it, but we're not there yet. And then for creatures I want exiled, they all have less than 4 cmc. If I'm keeping Void Shatter in for the Zombie matchup, then I would rather have Horribly Awry.
As for adding in another Sweltering Suns, I would just go down to 3 Incendiary Flow. I'm not sure of what your main deck looks like, but I assume a playset of Cathartic Reunions and some number of Tormenting Voice or Nagging Thoughts. That's plenty of card draw to make 3 feel like 4. I don't think dropping down to 3 will hurt your match up so much since you're replacing it with another sweeper.
4 prized amalgam
4 stitchwing skaab
4 advanced stitchwing
4 elder deep-fiend
spells
4 cathartic reunion
2 tormenting voice (replacing it with nagging thoughts)
4 lightning axe
4 kozilek's return
1 sweltering suns
1 pull from tomorrow
3 magma spray
2 drake haven
land
6 island
6 mountain
4 evolving wilds
1 wandering fumarole
3 spirebluff canal
1 aether hub
2 sanctum of ugin
3 incendiary flow
2 sweltering suns
4 negate
1 disallow
2 ceremonious rejection
2 drake haven
this decklist is configured to fight a dense aggro metagame. i droppeddispeland switched it with ceremonious rejection in the sideboard because this deck is already strong vs control, ceremonious rejection is there for aetherworks marvel. 2 drake haven in the sideboard is for control matchup, i know i said the card is clunky but it provide huge firepower against control decks and actually usable in other matchup. fevered visions are something you wouldnt wan to cast in heavy aggro and marvel metagame. the rest is just anti aggro countermeasures.
taking this deck weekly shop tournament tommorow, i will post the result later.
pondering on hazoret the fervent, she might be an effective beater and finisher but people now have confiscation coup in their sideboard which make hazoret dangerous for ourselves.
I use Fevered Visions in the same way as you use Drake Haven. Only for control.
Why the singleton Aether Hub and all of the evolving wilds? You'd probably be better of with UR ETB tapped lands. That's better than evolving wilds.
i totally forgot torrential gearhulk, my bad. thank you for reminding me. handling the snap robot is a problem because of their high toughness.
at the last tournament i killed the robot using lightning axe after it block one of my prized amalgam
for artifact removal should i use release the gremlins or by force?
regarding the awkward mana base, aether hub act as a temporary spirebluff canal because i haven't manage to found the 4th.
the evolving wildsis there largely because i dont want to spend money on wandering fumarole since that card is rotating soon.
i chose evolving wilds instead of highland lake because of fetch effect and most card in this deck only use
U/R except for elder deep-fiend and pull from tomorrow. the only RR spell is sweltering suns.
for now the manabase is working as intended, what do you think? is it worth risking color consictency for 4 fetch effect?
tournament report:
round 1: mono B zombies 1-2 loss
game 1 was tough, opponent was on curve and i managed to hold on but liliana's mastery is a pain in the ass.
game 2 was easier since the opponent didn't cast any 2 drop, sweltering suns and drake haven ended the game quickly.
game 3 i mulliganed to 5 and didn't draw sweeper despite packing 4 kozilek's return and 3 sweltering suns
round 2: RUG temur aetherworks 2-1 win
game 1 was close but i cant close the game because of multiple Woodweaver's Puzzleknot and nissa's renewal via marvel activation he managed to cast ulamog back to back and its off to game 2
game 2 was a breeze since i have a solid counter suit for his aetherworks marvel. negated 2 of his marvel and then he scoop.
game 3 he switched his strategy to beatdown with tireless tracker, and bristling hydra. drakes wreck havoc on his live total and when he cast whirler virtuoso with 21 energy, elder deep-fiend seal the deal by tapping his thopters.
round 3: BWG Abzan 1-2 loss
game 1 mana screwed to oblivion, keep a 2 lander and didnt draw another land. sigh
game 2 2 prized amalgam and 1 stitchwing skaab on turn 3 ended the game quickly
game 3 mana screwed again kept a 2 lander hand with stitchwing skaab and advanced stitchwing, sadly i keep drawing island and without red source i can only managed so much, drawn a red source on turn 6 and cast several cathartic reunion during the following turns. 2 cathartic reunion and 1 nagging thoughts net 0 zombies to reanimate which is frustating. with 0 defense his hissing quagmire takes the last bite.
round 4: BG energy 1-2 loss
game 1 quickly ended the game with early elder deep-fiend and advanced stitchwing
game 2 opponent curve out, turn 2 longtusk cub, followed by winding constrictor and rishkar, peema renegade. didnt draw any removal in time, i scooped
game 3 is worse than game 2, similar set up but this time he have kalitas, traitor of ghet and i dont have lightning axe for him
round 5: RG energy 2-0 win
game 1 i keep an opening hand with 2 kozilek's return, blow up his board and he is out of gas, gg
game 2 i keep a 2 lander hand with a sweltering suns. color screwed for a few turn but i managed to cast kozilek's return and reanimate advanced stitchwing followed by emerging elder deep-fiend in the following turn. 5 damage is more than enough to kill a fresh bristling hydra. and it goes awry for my opponent from there.
somehow the nagging thoughts didn't work out for me. maybe i need to play with it a bit more.
another glaring problem is we dont have removal for 4 toughness creature other than lightning axe, maybe we could use collective defiance here?
many times magma spray become a dead card in matchup other than zombie.
didn't encounter control deck but there is two people running UR in this tournament
I think I'd also cut out Pull From Tomorrow, too. Don't get me wrong, it's a strong card. I find, however, when I'm playing, I don't typically sit at a very high land count. I probably pitch as many lands as I play. Unless I draw and play my single Key to the City, I don't finish the game with a very high land count.
I'd probably just choose cards that affect the board state in those 3 slots. Most likely Fiery Temper.
I'm also not a huge fan of Magma Spray either. For the random x/2s, I just let sweepers handle them. For Dread Wanderer, Scrapheap Scrounger, and in the mirror, I prefer Incendiary Flow. I know a lot of times that means I take an extra 3 on the attack, but I've used 3 burn from Flow to finish games. I enjoy that extra utility.
Out of curiosity, which x/4+'s are you finding hard to deal with? A lot of those could probably be dealt with by counterspell. The ones that come to mind for me are Gearhulks and pumped up creatures (by Winding Constrictor, Diregraf Colossus with many zombies in the yard, Thalia's Lieutenant with lots of humans afterwards, etc). In most of those cases, Collective Defiance won't help you because they either grow faster than you can shoot them down or they came into play that big. Counterspells are best option. More eccentric options like Imprisoned in the Moon also exist. There's also plenty of enchantments along the same lines that will keep a troublesome creature tapped down. The final solution I would suggest is something that steals offending card. Confiscation Coup or something along those lines.
I don't think you can look at Nagging Thoughts as a great card. It's an average card. However, I do think it's much better than Tormenting Voice. Tormenting Voice has very specific scenarios where it's better than Nagging Thoughts. I think those are:
I'd suggest playing with it more. If you really pay attention, you'll come across a lot of draws where you're glad it wasn't a Tormenting Voice.
And you should definitely play with a single Key to the City over all of those cards, including Cathartic Reunion. Every turn looting is much better than a single turn of 3 cards then nothing for who knows however many turns. The only issue I've ever had with Key to the City is having a 2nd one seems bad. That's why I have settled on only putting 1 in the deck.