Not really. Or I should say no one that did well did, which unfortunately matches up with my testing. There isn't a solid version of control right now that doesn't need a transformational sideboard. There are just too many angles we have to worry about. So we can pick our poison in an assumed metagame or try to hedge against everything. I don't like our chances right now.
Kpal, how is Gideon of the Trials treating you in the deck? Would love to know as I am thinking of adding 2-3 copies to my deck.
Strong. The low casting cost makes it easy to have back up magic in hand to protect him. I mostly wait to mid to late game when I have the field under control. Sometimes he just sits there ticking up and up, locking out a permanent. Opposing Gearhulks. Heart of Kiran. Even attack lands. Other times he is attacking with Torrential Gearhulk. One aggro player said he now dislikes this Gideon more than the old.
I'll be interested to hear how much you may or may not miss it.
I missed the cycling, but that's it. Most of my opponents played around it, which was better seeing as how I'm playing all cards that do stuff. I did, however, run into the same problems that most are having - not losing to aggro and Marvel at the same time. I so wish Gideon and those stupid f*****g Eldrazi were gone like originally intended.
Has the development of the meta and pro-tour dominance shifted anyone towards particular builds or colour combinations? Are there any "must have" cards yet for the meta?
Has the development of the meta and pro-tour dominance shifted anyone towards particular builds or colour combinations? Are there any "must have" cards yet for the meta?
I feel strongly about Flaying Tendrils and Archfiend of Ifnir now more than before. Zombies are already showing up to my LGS and both of those options can dispatch them. I don't like Esper vs Zombies because of the lack of cheap consistent removal that two colors provide.
Has the development of the meta and pro-tour dominance shifted anyone towards particular builds or colour combinations? Are there any "must have" cards yet for the meta?
I feel strongly about Flaying Tendrils and Archfiend of Ifnir now more than before. Zombies are already showing up to my LGS and both of those options can dispatch them. I don't like Esper vs Zombies because of the lack of cheap consistent removal that two colors provide.
Say what? Almost all of the efficient cheap removal is just straight up black. If you're concerned with aggressive decks, then white has the next-best cheap removal. I also think sweepers are kind of important, but I'm not sure how much so.
Ob Nixilis Reignited is way too slow and vulnerable. I agree with the rest of kpal's list though. I lump Yahenni's Expertise with Flaying Tendrils as well. Being able to deal with 3 toughness is kind of important. Also, we may want to consider some number of Declaration in Stone with the prevalence of tokens and indestructible creatures (read: Ulamog).
On an aside, does anyone else feel that Disallow and other 3-CMC counter spells seem sort of weak right now?
Has the development of the meta and pro-tour dominance shifted anyone towards particular builds or colour combinations? Are there any "must have" cards yet for the meta?
I feel strongly about Flaying Tendrils and Archfiend of Ifnir now more than before. Zombies are already showing up to my LGS and both of those options can dispatch them. I don't like Esper vs Zombies because of the lack of cheap consistent removal that two colors provide.
Say what? Almost all of the efficient cheap removal is just straight up black. If you're concerned with aggressive decks, then white has the next-best cheap removal. I also think sweepers are kind of important, but I'm not sure how much so.
Ob Nixilis Reignited is way too slow and vulnerable. I agree with the rest of kpal's list though. I lump Yahenni's Expertise with Flaying Tendrils as well. Being able to deal with 3 toughness is kind of important. Also, we may want to consider some number of Declaration in Stone with the prevalence of tokens and indestructible creatures (read: Ulamog).
On an aside, does anyone else feel that Disallow and other 3-CMC counter spells seem sort of weak right now?
Dec in Stone was in my original UW decks as 2x. But the main phase tap out and giving the opponent card draw moved me away from them.
I have not noticed disallow being worse.
Would you replace it with Negate?
Yea. More Negate. I wouldn't cut them entirely because we still need for certain situations, but I don't think they're automatic 4-of. Maybe I'm overreacting to recent stuff.
I been playing with no Negate main, but have 3 SB as they are more of a SB card to me now, Been having positive result, going 3-0 and been undefeated. I have 1 Kefnet maindeck and against control it does alot of work
@atakusai - Would you mind sharing your latest list?
Lately I've been playing URw with some success and building on my hoard of Esper cards secretly hoping the meta would shift to make Esper more appealing. After the Pro Tour I believe this could now be the case.
My first thought is that I'm leaning towards the fastest possible mana base, which would likely mean I'm looking for a build that does not rely on Shambling Vent as a wincon. This will likely sound like heresy to most Esper players, but I was on Esper Walkers when Baby Jace was in Standard and I also played Esper with Lili & Kalitas 6 months or so ago and I would feel that I lost to my manabase, rather then my opponent after Jace rotated. I don't want to go there again, but I don't want to give up on Vent either!
My stumbling block is the desire to have it all, needing BB (Grasp, Tendrils), WW (for Fumigate!) & UU (for flexible counters like Disallow & Shatter). If only Spire of Industry didn't require an artifact in play the mana base might be fast enough...
I have been having some good results in my testing with this list. If anyone has any ideas/suggestions, feel free to let me know. It would greatly help seeing as I am trying it out this friday at fnm.
I have posted my latest list, with some modification for the new meta, The mana base seem fine for (BB,UU,WW) but everything can be change around, the Cycle land is mainly there to power the Shadow lands, but if needed it can be played tap; with Kefnet, you can return the cycle and cycle it if needed which is a plus. I currently dont know if I want him main or SB as I want to have a bit more removal/exile affect.
Some of the cards I might consider are Harsh Scrutiny, trangrass the mind, and Flaying tendril main.
maybe something like -1 fumigate, -1 Kefnet for +2 Flaying Tendril
I have been having some good results in my testing with this list. If anyone has any ideas/suggestions, feel free to let me know. It would greatly help seeing as I am trying it out this friday at fnm.
Why Flaying Tendrils against a deck that can run up to 12 anthem effects? Maybe if you chained it off of Yahenni's Expertise it could work but I think (as both a control and zombie player) that -2/-2 isn't enough. With all the anthems Dusk // Dawn could see sideboard play
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Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Why Flaying Tendrils against a deck that can run up to 12 anthem effects? Maybe if you chained it off of Yahenni's Expertise it could work but I think (as both a control and zombie player) that -2/-2 isn't enough. With all the anthems Dusk // Dawn could see sideboard play
I have posted my latest list, with some modification for the new meta, The mana base seem fine for (BB,UU,WW) but everything can be change around, the Cycle land is mainly there to power the Shadow lands, but if needed it can be played tap; with Kefnet, you can return the cycle and cycle it if needed which is a plus. I currently dont know if I want him main or SB as I want to have a bit more removal/exile affect.
Some of the cards I might consider are Harsh Scrutiny, trangrass the mind, and Flaying tendril main.
maybe something like -1 fumigate, -1 Kefnet for +2 Flaying Tendril
Thanks, and your comments on the cycle lands role got me thinking: with all the cycle support already, could more Hieroglyphic Illumination in place of Glimmer allow this list get away with running 25 lands? I like the list and will try something similar with an Approach in the sideboard as well.
I've been running 24 lands in my control lists (as you noted a while ago) with no issues. Cycling fixes the issue of getting your mana on time. The problem is that you don't want to be in many situations where you need to cycle your spells to get lands.
Is Fatal Push a must have now? I've been avoiding it due to rising cost (and the fact no one wants to trade them) but it seems for anyone including black you pretty much have to. I am very pleased to see your Esper list working and look forward to hearing about it's growth. I am just about ready to draw up my first draft, which I'll probably sleeve up and test this weekend. Not sure I am going to be ready for Game Day, but will be good to see how Control does overall in that less competitive environment.
@the_falsehate
I swapped my Glimmer of Genius for Hieroglyphic Illumination early on in testing and have never thought about going back. Because the meta is so fast right now the ability to cycle it early to search for land or removal just outweighs the scry so much, makes the deck more consistent.
@SpaciousBox
If you are playing esper then yes, I think Fatal Push is a must have, three colours is a lot to try get away with Grasp of Darkness as your removal.
I agree with Spyboy. I don't see how you can justify not playing Fatal Push if you're playing black in your control. Grasp of Darkness is generally seen as auto-include as well, but BB can be hard on tricolor mana bases.
I've been running 24 lands in my control lists (as you noted a while ago) with no issues. Cycling fixes the issue of getting your mana on time. The problem is that you don't want to be in many situations where you need to cycle your spells to get lands.
But you're on 2 colors, right? I'll give 25 a show for 3 color. Also, I want to avoid Evolving Wilds as I'm not that worried about Revolt for Fatal Push. Speaking of using spot removal along with sweepers, what are your thoughts about how aggressive to be using spot removal when you have a Fumigate in hand? I was playing URw Control at a PPTQ last weekend and got absolutely blown out by Warping Wail countering my Fumigate on turn 5. If would have killed two creatures with the removal I had in hand and let things develop more slowly I would have lived at least another turn and likely still had a chance.
True enough. I meant it was enough to see enough lands. To get the right color lands in a tricolor deck would probably be more difficult. However, I do feel even three color decks should only be lightly splashing a third color.
Depending on the matchup, I would range from being very aggressive to moderately aggressive in the first couple turns, but come turn 4-5 I would look to set up a fumigate. I have anguished unmaking so I need that life to cast spells, espicially because I like targeting anguished unmaking with gearhulk. You don't have anguished unmaking so letting a bit of damage early on is not as bad for you.
That being said I highly recommend anguished unmaking, a turn earlier then cast out is extremely relevant I find.
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*EDIT*
To answer my own question, Yes
25 decks
1 UW
0 UB
0 UBW
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Not really. Or I should say no one that did well did, which unfortunately matches up with my testing. There isn't a solid version of control right now that doesn't need a transformational sideboard. There are just too many angles we have to worry about. So we can pick our poison in an assumed metagame or try to hedge against everything. I don't like our chances right now.
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I missed the cycling, but that's it. Most of my opponents played around it, which was better seeing as how I'm playing all cards that do stuff. I did, however, run into the same problems that most are having - not losing to aggro and Marvel at the same time. I so wish Gideon and those stupid f*****g Eldrazi were gone like originally intended.
I feel strongly about Flaying Tendrils and Archfiend of Ifnir now more than before. Zombies are already showing up to my LGS and both of those options can dispatch them. I don't like Esper vs Zombies because of the lack of cheap consistent removal that two colors provide.
Key cards:
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Say what? Almost all of the efficient cheap removal is just straight up black. If you're concerned with aggressive decks, then white has the next-best cheap removal. I also think sweepers are kind of important, but I'm not sure how much so.
Ob Nixilis Reignited is way too slow and vulnerable. I agree with the rest of kpal's list though. I lump Yahenni's Expertise with Flaying Tendrils as well. Being able to deal with 3 toughness is kind of important. Also, we may want to consider some number of Declaration in Stone with the prevalence of tokens and indestructible creatures (read: Ulamog).
On an aside, does anyone else feel that Disallow and other 3-CMC counter spells seem sort of weak right now?
I have not noticed disallow being worse.
Would you replace it with Negate?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Lately I've been playing URw with some success and building on my hoard of Esper cards secretly hoping the meta would shift to make Esper more appealing. After the Pro Tour I believe this could now be the case.
My first thought is that I'm leaning towards the fastest possible mana base, which would likely mean I'm looking for a build that does not rely on Shambling Vent as a wincon. This will likely sound like heresy to most Esper players, but I was on Esper Walkers when Baby Jace was in Standard and I also played Esper with Lili & Kalitas 6 months or so ago and I would feel that I lost to my manabase, rather then my opponent after Jace rotated. I don't want to go there again, but I don't want to give up on Vent either!
My stumbling block is the desire to have it all, needing BB (Grasp, Tendrils), WW (for Fumigate!) & UU (for flexible counters like Disallow & Shatter). If only Spire of Industry didn't require an artifact in play the mana base might be fast enough...
3 Shambling Vent
2 Irrigated Farmland
2 Fetid Pools
3 Port Town
3 Choked Estuary
3 Plain
3 Swamp
6 Island
Creatures (4)
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Sorceries (2)
2 Fumigate
3 Cast Out
Instants (26)
4 Fatal Push
2 Forsake The Worldly
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Blessed Alliance
3 Censor
2 Essence Scatter
1 Negate
3 Disallow
4 Hieroglyphic Illumination
3 Pull From Tomorrow
1 Approach Of The Second Sun
2 Scarab Feast
2 Essence Scatter
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2 Gideon Of The Trials
1 Sphinx Of The Final Word
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Negate
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
I have been thinking about replacing the Scarab feasts with flaying tendrils to deal with zombies better.
I have posted my latest list, with some modification for the new meta, The mana base seem fine for (BB,UU,WW) but everything can be change around, the Cycle land is mainly there to power the Shadow lands, but if needed it can be played tap; with Kefnet, you can return the cycle and cycle it if needed which is a plus. I currently dont know if I want him main or SB as I want to have a bit more removal/exile affect.
Some of the cards I might consider are Harsh Scrutiny, trangrass the mind, and Flaying tendril main.
maybe something like -1 fumigate, -1 Kefnet for +2 Flaying Tendril
3x Censor
2x Disallow
2x Void Shatter
1x Scatter to the win
2x Essence Scatter
4x Fatal Push
3x Glimmer of Genius
1x Hieroglyphic Illumination
3x Grasp of Darkness
2x Pull from Tomorrow
Sorcery (2)
2x Fumigate
Creature (4)
3x Torrential Gearhulk
1x Kefnet the Mindful
4x Choked Estuary
2x Evolving Wilds
4x Fetid Pools
2x Irrigated Farmland
3x Island
2x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
3x Swamp
2x Port town
Enchantment (3)
3x Cast Out
Planeswalker (2)
1x liliana, death's majesty
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Flaying Tendrils
2x Forsake the Worldly
2x Trangress the mind
1x Dispel
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Linvala, the preserver
3x Negate
1x Scarab Feast
1x Sphinx of the Final Word
Looks solid, but yes, I would definitely suggest some Flaying Tendrils in there somewhere.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Cast Out, Anguished Unmaking, and your counters should be used on the anthem effects.
I swapped my Glimmer of Genius for Hieroglyphic Illumination early on in testing and have never thought about going back. Because the meta is so fast right now the ability to cycle it early to search for land or removal just outweighs the scry so much, makes the deck more consistent.
@SpaciousBox
If you are playing esper then yes, I think Fatal Push is a must have, three colours is a lot to try get away with Grasp of Darkness as your removal.
Depending on the matchup, I would range from being very aggressive to moderately aggressive in the first couple turns, but come turn 4-5 I would look to set up a fumigate. I have anguished unmaking so I need that life to cast spells, espicially because I like targeting anguished unmaking with gearhulk. You don't have anguished unmaking so letting a bit of damage early on is not as bad for you.
That being said I highly recommend anguished unmaking, a turn earlier then cast out is extremely relevant I find.