I started to tinker with this deck because UB is my favorite color combination. However, I do see the benefits of adding White and thus being Esper Control in the current meta.
I haven't been able to test which version would be better: a Metallurgic Summonings version or the PW version (with at least Liliana and Ob Nixilis, maybe Jace and/or Gideon too, see the Esper control deck in MTGGoldfish). What are your thoughts?
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Before the glory of Yawgmoth, yes, even this makes sense.
as what RHAZZERCOM mention, murder is BB which is hard for a 3cc deck to alway have up at all time since deck want to go BB -> UU -> WW and having BBBB open by turn 4/5 is very hard, as you alway want UU in a reactive deck as mine, if your main goal is proactive then I can see murder/ruinous path but keeping mana open for different threat is a must.
and that Scry 1 is very helpful and could be a game changer in situation of top deck mode or being mana flood vs mana screw.
I been having a lot of success with the deck and has been a long time esper player. more concern is Esper Master (Shaheen) Esper bulid look really funky and is putting up a very good result in Team constructed and his time on screen.
My thing is that my Esper deck is essentially a UB deck splashing white for a few cards. I'm not looking to necessarily have WW for anything. If you take that path, then you will have trouble with your mana base.
I loved seeing that Shaheen Soorani was having success playing Esper control. I just wish he didn't go so hard on the tapout style.
My lgs has a very diverse metagame. Gw tokens and mardu vehicles are the only issues I have. I don't actually have many problems getting double black and double blue. Or my double white by turn 5. My biggest issue I think is that murder just takes up the slots I could be using something else in. Grasps are amazing. I have no issues with gb delirium or any emerge deck at all because I can just kill and counters everything. Torrential survives a return, and I have alot of control in the mid to late game. It's all in how I play as well. Critical thinking. Skywhaler shot has been in the maybe board as a 3 of for quite awhile now. But murder kills everything I need it to. And also I have in couple of instances where I target the same creature multiple times with kill spells to put enough damage on board to win leaving them defenseless and I have an army. I've won that way and it is devastating to them when they realize what is happening. Against control if I resolve a summonibgs. They sometimes just plan scoop to it. I only run 3 because it can clog the hand and yoj almost never want more than 1 anyways. But sometimes the second one is useful if it was answered. As to the mana base. I have played roughly 30 games and have only had issues with the mana maybe 4 of those games. I have been debating about concealed courtyard as well but the mana fixes itself with anticipates very well. I tried shuffle and it works really well. I've actually changed the deck some. I took out of the main, a murder and the 2 disallow out of the main and went with Cataclysmic Gearhulk and 2 Yahenni's Expertise in the main and it worked tonight against gw tokens. Gonna test it tomorrow against mardu vehicles. I also took out 1 blessed and 1 anguished for 2 Skywhaler shots for the matchups they may be good in.
Lands 26
3x Plains
3x Island
8x Swamp
2x Prairie Stream
4x Port Town
3x Sunken Hollow
3x Choked Estuary
White-9 ,Blue-15 ,Black-14
Sideboard 15
changeable bases on meta
2x Anguished Unmaking
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Fumigate
2x Disallow
1x Glimmer of Genius
2x Ruinous Path
2x Lost Legacy
2x Yahenni's Expertise
Maybeboard
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
The key behind the mana base is Anticipate helps fuel into your next set of Lands in the early turns and in the late game it pulls answers from your deck for the in response to cards. People hate that haha. The reason Yahenni's Expertise is in the main instead of Fumigate is that it doesn't kill the token tha rg is made with summonings. I've been for a couple of weeks using 3 Gearhulks and 4 Summonings but decided 4 hulks and 3 summonings was best. Unmakings are the catch alls. Blessed alliance answers Gideon and hexproof creatures. With gearhulk. You can buyback all of your good against the field spells. Blessed alliance just happens to also gain us life that we lose from anguished unmaking while taking care of 3 issues. Sphinx of the Final Word, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and Hexproof Hydra. These are the only issues I've ever encountered that I can't deal with in blue black very well. This is a reactive deck. But can go for 8 counters with the sideboard for more control. The reason I use Revolutionary Rebuff is because it's a great early answer to issue Creatures and planeswalkers. It doesn't answer vehicles or artifacts, but grasps/murders and anguished unmaking do that very well. Lands two through 5 need to be untapped for sure. So anticipates draw into the lands that need to help keep you untapped on their turn. The reason I use anguished unmaking is because it catches artifacts and enchantments. I could use cards like decommission and other catch alls, but this card also answers Creatures and planeswalkers and having something that takes care of everything is worth the life it takes to do so.
I like this take on Esper. My LGS is getting dominated by a UG Dynavolt Tower Control list running 10 counters, playsets of Glimmer, Lumbering Falls, Attune with Aether, Greenbelt Rampager & Rogue Refiner. He basically just counters things while ramping and building a board presence and a ton of energy and then kills you with Tower. He always seems to have a full grip and against other control decks he can also beat you to death with hexproof Lumbering Falls with counter mana up to deal with Blessed Alliance. How would you deal with that deck with your list?
I keep seeing in this thread that Esper control/UB Control runs out of gas and fails the remove all threats on time or that the mana base is not consistent or really shaky.
If you guys feel like going to a more consistent control version, come and take a look out the deck I'm brewing. I'm currently 10-3 (2 friendly leagues 4-1 and 2-1 at 1vs1 on MTGO)
I'm playing a very similar Classic Esper control deck. Heavy White Blue with black just to splash Anguished Unmaking or To the Slaughter depending on the match up. I'm surprised it's not getting more play as sweepers and flashable finishers with Torrential Gearhulk is very powerful in the meta.
My issue is against those decks that can go wide, mardu vehicles and gw tokens. What I'll usually do is take care of the biggest issues and if I can keep em under control, then I'll jam a Summonings. Take some life loss and kill all their fliers mak ok ng me ground blockers and trade to kill em all. The hardest guy to get rid of is Scrapheap Scrounger. He is really good against us. This deck needs 2 maindeck Yahenni's Expertise. As a way to basically profit from a board wipe. May also consider throwing in a couple Liliana as well because she is good against the x/1 Creatures. And gives them something else to attack rather than our life points. I have been thinking about throwing in 2 essence extraction because of how good it is against mardu vehicles. It gives us life back and deals with a threat and can be flashes back. Basically meaning we can go away from the white if we wanted to. But ub still can't answer issue permanents such as artifacts and enchantments without countering them first. So im thinking anguished unmaking is going to the side as a 4 of for those matchups. And we can instead run a proactive game plan. I have been running a reactive plan since I started the deck and it doesn't seem to be going that we'll so far. I'm usually 3-2 and 4-1 in matches but be ok ng able to do better is what I'm gonna try this friday to get ready for a pptq in my area.
I run heavy sweepers and then run semi-expensive exile spot removal that can take out any creature/vehicle/planeswalker. Stasis Snare or Anguished Unmaking have done a great job of dealing with scrapheap scroungerheart of kiran and gideon, ally of zendikar while slowing Mardu/GW tokens enough until a Fumigate into T6 gearhulk lockdown. Mainly, I actually go pretty non-specific with my spot removal and it's been working out well.
Tires may think that running 3 Yahenni's Expertise in the main is a priority. They can trail into another spells upon cast to kill a planeswalker as well if you need to. They are also not completely dead to some of the other creature matchups on turn 4 either.
So where are people at regarding their lists? I've basically had a month out of the game due to life stuff. Still the same meta (Vehicles/GB Snek/Jeskai and 4c Shaeeli)?
I would say Jeskai Saheeli has taken a back seat to 4C Saheeli, but otherwise the top decks haven't changed. It's a Mardu Vehicle world and we're all living in it.
I may do that. I am curious about the singleton Gideon, wouldn't Jace be better? Had many mana issues (BB T2, UU T3 and WW T4 - yes Gideon isn't really T5, but you get my point?)? How's the Mardu matchup?
I'm running pretty much the stock Jim Davis UB list, and feel really strong against everything except BG, and sometimes Mardu Vehicles. Any thoughts on what the strong cards are for that matchup, or sideboarding tips? I feel like it's probably a tough matchup regardless, but I'm sure I'm making mistakes too.
Kalitas and Fatal Push come in, Jace and Confirm Suspicions come out. I do thing Thing in the Ice and bring that in also to lower the curve.
I shifted the Jim Davis list into an Esper Control list. White is 100% for Shamlbing Vents, Anguished Unmaking, and Quarantine Field. I also run 1 of Metallurgic Summonings. I have been going 4-0 at most my FNM/SNM. Placed few top 8 at PPTQ, did top 16 for RPTQ
I shifted the Jim Davis list into an Esper Control list. White is 100% for Shamlbing Vents, Anguished Unmaking, and Quarantine Field. I also run 1 of Metallurgic Summonings. I have been going 4-0 at most my FNM/SNM. Placed few top 8 at PPTQ, did top 16 for RPTQ
Hey RHAZZERCOM, I've been following this topic for a few weeks. Started Esper control on KLD and switched to UB on AER. Im in the same position, looking to go esper back so I have anguished, manlands and some sweeper again. Doesnt hurt too much the 3 colors to the 2nd turn grasp/3rd turn disallow/murder/ruinous path?? If you could post your list it would be much appreciated
This list is set up to fight well game 1 vs aggro decks and the midrange BG lists. I haven't played many 4 color Saheeli decks, but with all the removal and few counter magic, you are set!
Depending what you plan to face at your LGS or even PPTQ/RPTQ, you can change out spot removal for more counter magic. I just feel Disallow is a little, clunky currently vs this meta. Also considering taking out 1 shambling vent for another basic land.
Let me know any suggestions you have.
**PS** I will not run more than 1 Metallurgic Summonings, this is a 2nd wincon. I am not going to over commit to the card.
4c Saheeli will force through one of its four Whirler Virtuosos, pump out several thopters, and leave you scrambling to 1-for-1 them all while also holding up combo disruption. Flaying Tendrils doesn't even kill the Virtuoso, you need access to some combination of 2-3 Fumigate/Expertise. I'm currently tuning Temur Tower, with that deck you can get away with having to 1-for-1 thopter tokens because of Dynavolt Tower. Even with that, I'm running a couple Virtuosos of my own. You need a main deck plan, not just a singleton but something you can expect to dig up within a reasonable time frame before you get overrun. Liliana is a start but they'll likely just eat her.
IMHO the main draw to Esper over Temur is Fumigate and other "hard" removal, which wrecks G/B (although I'm seeing fewer Snakes lately). I played Soorani's build for several weeks and the WW wasn't a problem. Run Oath of Jace to loot away your sweepers when they're dead.
Most of the meta game in my area is aggro build. Not a lot run the Saheeli combo lists. As i mentioned I have not done a bunch of testing VS it.
Their deck doesn't mass produce energy, i don't feel running more than 1 board wipe in the main is needed(for my area)
It's not that you'd ever need a second sweeper, you just want a better chance of finding one by turn 8-10 or so. It's a combo deck so control would normally prey on it, what makes it challenging is the pinch between tapping out to clean up the board vs. holding up disruption for the combo. Typically that means eating thopters for a few turns until you can sweep while holding up an answer. 4c Saheeli is all over MTGO right now so I've put in a lot of time testing against it, game one is nigh unwinnable if you're not prepared for Virtuoso. The deck is really good, so I would expect to see a significant uptick in people playing it - even if there's more deck loyalty and slower changeover in the paper meta generally.
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Esper Control
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I haven't been able to test which version would be better: a Metallurgic Summonings version or the PW version (with at least Liliana and Ob Nixilis, maybe Jace and/or Gideon too, see the Esper control deck in MTGGoldfish). What are your thoughts?
Before the glory of Yawgmoth, yes, even this makes sense.
and that Scry 1 is very helpful and could be a game changer in situation of top deck mode or being mana flood vs mana screw.
I been having a lot of success with the deck and has been a long time esper player. more concern is Esper Master (Shaheen) Esper bulid look really funky and is putting up a very good result in Team constructed and his time on screen.
I loved seeing that Shaheen Soorani was having success playing Esper control. I just wish he didn't go so hard on the tapout style.
Anguished Unmaking and the Quarantine Field also deal with resolved Towers.
The new white instance, 3 drop destroy artifact or enchantment. has revolt to gain 3 life, might be viable as well in this meta.
I'm playing a very similar Classic Esper control deck. Heavy White Blue with black just to splash Anguished Unmaking or To the Slaughter depending on the match up. I'm surprised it's not getting more play as sweepers and flashable finishers with Torrential Gearhulk is very powerful in the meta.
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalker
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Instant
4 Glimmer of Genius
2 Anguished Unmaking
3 Disallow
2 Void Shatter
2 Negate
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Blessed Alliance
3 Fatal Push
2 Fumigate
2 Ruinous Path
1 Painful Truths
Lands
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Shambling Vent
4 Choked Estuary
2 Port Town
2 Prairie Stream
2 Aether Hub
1 Plains
3 Island
3 Swamp
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Fatal Push
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Decommission
2 Dispel
2 Negate
Kalitas and Fatal Push come in, Jace and Confirm Suspicions come out. I do thing Thing in the Ice and bring that in also to lower the curve.
Hey RHAZZERCOM, I've been following this topic for a few weeks. Started Esper control on KLD and switched to UB on AER. Im in the same position, looking to go esper back so I have anguished, manlands and some sweeper again. Doesnt hurt too much the 3 colors to the 2nd turn grasp/3rd turn disallow/murder/ruinous path?? If you could post your list it would be much appreciated
Creatures(6)
4 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Planeswalkers(2)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Enchantments(1)
1 Metallurgic Summonings
Sorceries(3)
2 Ruinous Path
1 Yahenni's Expertise
Instances(23)
2 Skywhaler's shot
2 Anguished Unmaking
4 Grasps of Darkness
4 Fatal Push
4 Glimmer of Genius
3 Anticipate
2 Disallow
2 Negate
3 Island
4 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Shamlbing Vent
2 Prairie Stream
2 Concealed Courtyard
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Horribly Awry
1 Disallow
1 Negate
1 Blighted Fen
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
1 Descend upon the Sinful
1 Quarantine Field
1 Confirm Suspicions
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 To the Slaughter
1 Ruinous Path
This list is set up to fight well game 1 vs aggro decks and the midrange BG lists. I haven't played many 4 color Saheeli decks, but with all the removal and few counter magic, you are set!
Depending what you plan to face at your LGS or even PPTQ/RPTQ, you can change out spot removal for more counter magic. I just feel Disallow is a little, clunky currently vs this meta. Also considering taking out 1 shambling vent for another basic land.
Let me know any suggestions you have.
**PS** I will not run more than 1 Metallurgic Summonings, this is a 2nd wincon. I am not going to over commit to the card.
IMHO the main draw to Esper over Temur is Fumigate and other "hard" removal, which wrecks G/B (although I'm seeing fewer Snakes lately). I played Soorani's build for several weeks and the WW wasn't a problem. Run Oath of Jace to loot away your sweepers when they're dead.
Esper Control
Their deck doesn't mass produce energy, i don't feel running more than 1 board wipe in the main is needed(for my area)
It's not that you'd ever need a second sweeper, you just want a better chance of finding one by turn 8-10 or so. It's a combo deck so control would normally prey on it, what makes it challenging is the pinch between tapping out to clean up the board vs. holding up disruption for the combo. Typically that means eating thopters for a few turns until you can sweep while holding up an answer. 4c Saheeli is all over MTGO right now so I've put in a lot of time testing against it, game one is nigh unwinnable if you're not prepared for Virtuoso. The deck is really good, so I would expect to see a significant uptick in people playing it - even if there's more deck loyalty and slower changeover in the paper meta generally.
Esper Control