Coming at this from a slightly different angle, I think I've got something here. I've been testing this list on cockatrice/xmage/untap and the other free testing sites since the spoilers first came out. I know those places are not a fantastic sample because people play cards they don't own, don't know all the rules, and there is no judge.
The biggest choice I made when starting was based on the meta. Looking at almost all of the top8 results of the past several various competitive tournaments, leagues, etc, every deck seems like a creature-based deck that wants to win with 2-3 critters on the board. That plus the newly printed Carnage Tyrant suggests to me that the IXA meta will be filled with decks that win with creatures. One other VERY important fact is that the 3 biggest reasons to not go ham on board wipes just rotated (avacyn, gideon ally of zendikar, selfless spirit)
Which is why I run 8 wrath effects.
Fumigate is an allstar once you get to 5 lands, which you will because of all the card filtration. Since this deck only runs 1 creature, Tocatli Honor Guard, what this card basically reads is 3WW: Destroy all your opponent's creatures, you gain 1 life for each creature killed this way. Pretty sweet.
Settle the Wreckage is F**KING INCREDIBLE. At 4 mana, it's just fast enough to save us vs Ramunap Red if we're on the draw, as even their quickest starts won't have us anywhere near dead by their turn 4. It's also the best answer we have vs Hazoret.
Tocatli Honor Guard is the only creature in the deck and he puts in some WORK. At 1/3, he's the perfect size chump blocker vs most cards in ramured, and his static ability turns earthshaker khenra and the rest of their etb critters into vastly worse versions of themselves. He's also a fantastic play vs Temur Energy, bricking their entire deck until removed. He also shuts down gearhulks and much much more. Truly an incredible card that hits a ton of cards that are very popular right now. He's easy to remove at 3 toughness, but even if he eats a lightning strike, it's worth it.
Search for Azcantl is low-key my favorite card in the deck. I only run 2 because it's legendary, but the first mode is a fantastic filtration engine, and the 2nd mode is insane inevitability that combos great once you windmill slam down your approach. Once it flips it almost feels like you're playing with divining top in standard, but better.
the rest of the choices are fairly obvious, 4x essence scatter mainboard over censors or anything else because creatures are the hottness in this meta. Essence Scatter is the best counter post-rotation no doubt in my mind, and I've never regretted having 4 mb. Once we're in g2 i can swap out a few or all if need be.
I'd love any thoughts. Scarab God is in my sb as my best way to win around a Gideon of the Trials which is otherwise a pretty tough-to-beat play vs this deck. He's also decent at gy interaction as all the gy cards right now are creatures and you can respond to their god pharaohs gift targeting a critter by stealing it yourself, if you were bad enough to let gift hit the battlefield and reach their combat step.
I've been considering vraska's contempt over never/return in the sb because i find myself wanting more ways to deal with hazoret than I currently have. If only declaration in stone were still legal.
The deck plays like a cross between a prison deck and a control deck. 8 wrath effects means I spend the first several turns establishing a board state with cards like honor guard and search, while using supreme will and essence scatter to keep their board relatively controlled. I will often let them resolve a few creatures turns 3 and 4, even allowing them to take a swing or two so they over-extend, then start raining down the fumigates and wrath-to-exiles. Finish off with Approach as a wincon and serve over-easy with a side of saltiness as they watch you durdle durdle durdle into a win.
I don't want to oversell this, but I have yet to face a deck that I don't think I have at least a 50% matchup against, and vs most decks (like ramured, temur energy, and other grindy creature-based midrange decks) I almost feel like i'm facerolling unless they have really good draws. Ramured is obviously the toughest matchup, although 8x wrath effects against a deck with zero protection from a wrath is pretty good MB, and once I can put in 3 Authority of the Consuls from the SB it feels like an unlosable matchup (unless I lose to variance and draw a ***** ton of lands or no lands at all)
VERY interesting. I agree on Vraska's Contempt over Never/Return. Mainly due to the instant speed, but the 2 life looks good for your end goal as well.
I'm actually thinking i may do cast out over both, since it costs the same as vraskas but hits much more.
One thing I will say about the list I posted that runs 6-8 wrath effects, I have a nearly 100% winrate vs temur energy and the new dino deck. That said, Ramured is a real tough matchup.
Your basic is list is similar to mine. With all your testing I have a few questions.
1) Has the 1 copy of approach been effective?
2) Has field of ruin been necessary? (I would want more more white sources for Settle the Wreckage.)
3) How has Settle the Wreckage performed as your board wipe?
4) When have you brought Vona in and how has it performed?
5) Why sanguine sacrament? I would think this would be bad against ramunap red and would want maybe another removal such as walk the plank (ugh), farm // market, skywhaler's shot, or slash of talons. Also, if you want lifegain ritual of rejuvenation seems better unless x > 3 because of the card drawn (often used ojutai's command to draw and gain 4 life for 4 mana).
1)The one copy of Approach just steals me games sometimes. Its nice to board it out against decks you play it against because they think you are on something you may not be and it then gives you an advantage after board. I, as of now, have no intentions of cutting it for another win con of another type.
2)The Field of Ruin is a nice Evolving Wilds replacement. It comes into play untapped as a land and can be used to just go get an untapped basic if needed. Plus the added effect of hitting opposing Azaanta's, or Ramuap Ruins, or just hitting a land and potentially cutting a vehicles opp off a color, which has happened multiple times because they dont run enough basics.
3)As has been stated a few posts up, Settle the Wreckage is F***ing fantastic. Card literally does everything I want it to do and handing my opp mana has never been something I care about. As of now I have played 353 matches with the deck and I have won 294 of them. In all of those matches there was only one time where I gave my opponent land and it was relevant. The fact that they come into play tapped is nice cause it means you get to untap and hold open whatever before they can follow up with something.
4) I bring in Vona against control mirrors as being able to present a threat that can deal with their threats is great. I also bring it in against aggressive strategies due to the 4/4 life-linking, vigilance body. It stops any reasonable attacks and allows me chances to catch up or just pull ahead, especially when coupled with gifted aetherborn and sanguine sacrament.
5)My buddy and I saw sanguine sacrament and wanted to try it since the day it got spoiled. We started with 2 in the main and 1 in the board and have cut it down to just one main before even playing a game. Because it has a huge upside in the mid to late game we wanted to keep one but we knew the mana requirement needed to make it good/great would prevent us from double spelling any turn we wanted to really cast it. I want it against aggressive decks and against everything else I board it out. Because of the early interaction I have through turn 4/5/6 when I finally cast it on turn 6-9 its very difficult for them to come back from a 8-14 point life swing when im also dealing with threats. and presenting my own. We tried for about 100 games without it and added in a 3rd Vraska's Contempt, or a 3rd cast out, or a 1 of ixalans binding but in the end we just wanted the sacrament back.
As a note. We tried walk the plank in my list for the first 150 games and found that it being double black and sorcery just wasnt where we wanted to be on the early turns without presenting a body with it that did things like gifted aetherborn does. So far I havent missed the 2 mana kill spell but that doesnt mean the format wont change and we may need to add it in later.
@Chaos021 and @NSCTripleAgent. Normally I am in the same camp for stuff as Chaos but as far as search for azcanta is concerned I am going to have to disagree here. The card is insane against anything thats not fast aggro decks. It filters draws and once you flip it the card almost feels like a Top. Every turn just getting the best of 4 cards is obnoxious and hard for pretty much everything to keep up with from a card advantage standpoint. Im playing 2 in my Esper list, see previous posts, and I love it. I have about 300 matches under my belt with that list to date and am 98% sure thats the list im going to nationals with in a couple weeks. We will see what happens this weekend at the SCG.
Is Sunscourge Champion better than Gifted Aetherborn? It cost 1 more mana, but the reality is that Lightning Strike is back and if either creature was to eat it, at least you get some life from Champion where you would not get it from Aetherborn. Additionally you can also just follow up for 4 more life and a 4/4 on turn 4 which is out of Lightning Strike range. 7 life and 2 bodies for 2 mana spread out over 2 turns seems like far more value than what Aetherborn offers.
The issue I see is that he just stacks up the 3 spot even more, but I feel like you may be able to adjust that by adjusting what your turn 2 focuses on.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
@Chaos021 and @NSCTripleAgent. Normally I am in the same camp for stuff as Chaos but as far as search for azcanta is concerned I am going to have to disagree here. The card is insane against anything thats not fast aggro decks. It filters draws and once you flip it the card almost feels like a Top. Every turn just getting the best of 4 cards is obnoxious and hard for pretty much everything to keep up with from a card advantage standpoint. Im playing 2 in my Esper list, see previous posts, and I love it. I have about 300 matches under my belt with that list to date and am 98% sure thats the list im going to nationals with in a couple weeks. We will see what happens this weekend at the SCG.
The problem is the exact caveat you have pointed out. Of the majority of decks I've tested against, the most consistently lethal ones have been mono Red, and there have been many. If the format ends up being slower, sure I don't mind playing it, but I still think there are better spells to put in that slot.
I also agree Esper is the way to go. With a land-base so easily accessible, there really is no reason to stay in UB except for utility lands and maybe cutting a land if you're feeling bold. Settle the Wreckage looks too good to be ignored, and white also opens up more SB options and alternate wincons if you choose to go that route. As for myself, I'm still trying to build a version that can include Liliana, Death's Majesty and exploit ETBs from Torrential Gearhulk and company. That being said, here's my list:
Basic changes include replacing Opt with Champion of Wits for better Liliana synergy, both in creature type and graveyard fuel, and adding a 3rd copy of Torrential Gearhulk to take advantage of the large number of instants.
1 copy of Gonti, Lord of Luxury takes the place of Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet... compared with Hostage Taker, they both die to Lightning Strike, while Gonti gives you value after it dies; if they both live, pirate acts as removal, which would make it better, but it can't steal Carnage Tyrant, while Gonti can. Gonti also makes a better blocker, so I'm siding with him for now.
The rest is pretty much the same. Similar counter/removal ratios as other lists as well as 3 MB board wipes (which might be too low, could cut some cards for 2 more Fumigate MB) and 2 The Scarab God. I'd like to experiment with a single copy of Vraska, Relic Seeker as well, but that might be getting a bit too greedy and cute.
Is Sunscourge Champion better than Gifted Aetherborn? It cost 1 more mana, but the reality is that Lightning Strike is back and if either creature was to eat it, at least you get some life from Champion where you would not get it from Aetherborn. Additionally you can also just follow up for 4 more life and a 4/4 on turn 4 which is out of Lightning Strike range. 7 life and 2 bodies for 2 mana spread out over 2 turns seems like far more value than what Aetherborn offers.
The issue I see is that he just stacks up the 3 spot even more, but I feel like you may be able to adjust that by adjusting what your turn 2 focuses on.
Gifted Aetherborn has deathtouch as well as lifelink, I want to be able to trade with the creatures it blocks and Scarab God can bring him back later as a 4/4. Also, Aetherborn coming down on turn 2 is very relevant against aggro decks. If they want to spend their turn 2 getting in for less because they want to strike my guy deal. Means its one less guy I have to deal with quickly.
Personally I prefer the instant speed and ability to cycle if I dont need it. Not letting them cast the card that is under it doesn't feel stronger than that.
@Chaos021 and @NSCTripleAgent. Normally I am in the same camp for stuff as Chaos but as far as search for azcanta is concerned I am going to have to disagree here. The card is insane against anything thats not fast aggro decks. It filters draws and once you flip it the card almost feels like a Top. Every turn just getting the best of 4 cards is obnoxious and hard for pretty much everything to keep up with from a card advantage standpoint. Im playing 2 in my Esper list, see previous posts, and I love it. I have about 300 matches under my belt with that list to date and am 98% sure thats the list im going to nationals with in a couple weeks. We will see what happens this weekend at the SCG.
The problem is the exact caveat you have pointed out. Of the majority of decks I've tested against, the most consistently lethal ones have been mono Red, and there have been many. If the format ends up being slower, sure I don't mind playing it, but I still think there are better spells to put in that slot.
I said it was bad against faster aggro, however in my testing Fast Aggro has only been about 14% of the matches I have played against. That is all the fast aggro decks clumped together. Everything else has been various control decks, midrange, big dino decks, or god pharaoh decks, with a very small splash of tempo based pirate decks. The percentage of the decks that Search is good against when going into a wide open large field is way more than the downside that its poor against fast aggro decks.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Wars may come and go but my soldiers, they are eternal."
Standard: Whatever Control is Best
Modern: Nothing
Legacy; Miracles RIP
I'd like to experiment with a single copy of Vraska, Relic Seeker as well, but that might be getting a bit too greedy and cute.
Thoughts?
Honestly, I have had good results with an Esper mana core and getting in a 4th color for Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh. G may be a littler harder to make work because the buddy lands are only allied colors. But I do think it is worth testing 4 color splashes right now. Mana feels surprisingly good.
Gifted Aetherborn has deathtouch as well as lifelink, I want to be able to trade with the creatures it blocks and Scarab God can bring him back later as a 4/4. Also, Aetherborn coming down on turn 2 is very relevant against aggro decks. If they want to spend their turn 2 getting in for less because they want to strike my guy deal. Means its one less guy I have to deal with quickly.
I think that is a fair argument for Gifted Aetherborn. I feel like removal right now is actually pretty decent, so I didn't value the Deathtouch as much. I also play Treasure Map though which means I am developing that on turn 2 instead.
As for the Search for Azcanta card being bad vs hyper aggro decks, I agree. I am sitting at roughly 15% for total games played vs hyper aggro and I think that translates well to why it is a poor argument to have against the card. If you relate that to the % of field, I would rather poise my main with a couple copies of a card that is very strong against 85% of the field in game 1, than hedge vs 15% in the opening week.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
I'd like to experiment with a single copy of Vraska, Relic Seeker as well, but that might be getting a bit too greedy and cute.
Thoughts?
Honestly, I have had good results with an Esper mana core and getting in a 4th color for Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh. G may be a littler harder to make work because the buddy lands are only allied colors. But I do think it is worth testing 4 color splashes right now. Mana feels surprisingly good.
Gifted Aetherborn has deathtouch as well as lifelink, I want to be able to trade with the creatures it blocks and Scarab God can bring him back later as a 4/4. Also, Aetherborn coming down on turn 2 is very relevant against aggro decks. If they want to spend their turn 2 getting in for less because they want to strike my guy deal. Means its one less guy I have to deal with quickly.
I think that is a fair argument for Gifted Aetherborn. I feel like removal right now is actually pretty decent, so I didn't value the Deathtouch as much. I also play Treasure Map though which means I am developing that on turn 2 instead.
As for the Search for Azcanta card being bad vs hyper aggro decks, I agree. I am sitting at roughly 15% for total games played vs hyper aggro and I think that translates well to why it is a poor argument to have against the card. If you relate that to the % of field, I would rather poise my main with a couple copies of a card that is very strong against 85% of the field in game 1, than hedge vs 15% in the opening week.
I think Treasure Map would be a reasonable cut against decks where you are bringing in Gifted Aetherborn. So I dont see them being in competition with each other for the 2 slot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Wars may come and go but my soldiers, they are eternal."
Standard: Whatever Control is Best
Modern: Nothing
Legacy; Miracles RIP
Cruel Reality is a card I am liking more and more the more I play with it.
It works a little like approach of the second sun, in that it is a 7 mana win condition that is hard for most decks to deal with, and it immediately relieves some pressure.
Unlike approach, you can run just 1 or 2 in the deck, and a single copy can win the game by itself.
It can take care of anything, hazoret, carnage tyrant, planeswalkers, etc, and its quite a fast clock too. Since most decks are not trying to go wide, the abyss effect works quite well.
Search for azcanta:
It is good, but it is slow. So slow. It isn't just vs the hyper aggro decks that it is bad. It really needs to stick in play, and constant mana to be poured into it.
Not saying it isn't good, just that the decks needs to be built around it.
You play it, get a bit of card selection, it flips, you activate it, get a spell. At that point, you spent 6 mana into it, and got 1 card, and a bit of selection. Like a supreme will maybe, not incredible.
Activate it a second time, and now you spent 8/10 mana (depending on if you want to count the land itself or not), over 3 turns, and you are +1 on cards. At that point, glimmer is still more efficient, and even something like hieroglyphic isn't that far off.
When you activate it for the third time, 4 turns after initially playing it, that is when it really starts to pull you ahead compared to other options. But thats also a lot of time and mana spent into it.
If you are under pressure, and need to affect the board NOW, then search does very little.
For now its a 2 of main deck and I like it. But Its not hard for me to imagine a place where you want to max out on glimmers, supreme wills and gear hulks first, to spend less mana (time) durdling, and more on impacting the board.
Scarab god also gets you card advantage for every 4 mana you spend, but that comes with a direct board impact.
I don't think Approach of the Second Sun are that comparable when we are talking about relieving pressure. The difference between them sacrificing something of their choice and just straight gaining 7 life, can be pretty substantial. With Cruel Reality you are also giving them options to delay the win potentially even longer than Approach of the Second Sun can be delayed. Saying it can take care of anything is a bit of a fallacy in that it does not really do that until they are at 5 life and completely out of gas. Otherwise they can just trade 5 life to kill you with Hazoret, assuming you lived that long anyways.
Search for Azcanta is slow? It is 2 copies and you are arguing for a 7 mana enchantment. I am confused. I think people grotesquely underestimate the ability to virtually double the odds of drawing an out each turn. If you play poker, you probably know why those small percentages add up and why they are valuable. I believe Patrick Chapin noted that these kind of upkeep scrying capabilities have always been on the verge of being more playable than trash, but there was little to incentivize playing a card that was merely alright. He also noted that all those cards cost 3 or had no major upside, which Search for Azcanta does.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Honestly, I have had good results with an Esper mana core and getting in a 4th color for Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh. G may be a littler harder to make work because the buddy lands are only allied colors. But I do think it is worth testing 4 color splashes right now. Mana feels surprisingly good.
Yeah, I saw the same thing with mana. It looks extremely easy to splash for something on T6, so I guess the better question is if Vraska, Relic Seeker can work as a wincon on her own.
No, they have to sacrifice something, and only lose 5 if they cant.
So if your opponent has 1 creature or 1 PW on the board, you can play cruel reality, and in their upkeep they have to sacrifice it.
I'v had a couple opponents make the same mistake you did thinking it is a punisher card, and then the card does live up to its name when they realize anything they play will die without you needing to do anything, and if the board is kept clear it is a 4 turn clock (with haste). gg.
Isn't it a win-more card in that situation tho? If you're at T7 and you managed to control the board and stabilize life total to the point where you can safely cast this, aren't you winning already? I can see its applications vs a clear board that resolves a Carnage Tyrant the turn after and threatens to kill, but at that point it's just a glorified Doomfall. What would your sequencing look like? T5 Fumigate >>> T6 Torrential Gearhulk >>> T7 Cruel Reality?
Search for azcanta, if it flips on like turn 6 or 7 you need to pay 3 extra mana to find a card, and then cast that card before it has an impact on the board. It costs 2 and can get under things, so its amazing in the control mirror, like insanely good. But vs something fast, I often dont have the time to cast it especially on the draw, it does nothing the turn I play it, and needs more mana put into it, Id rather have something like gearhulk/scarab god/fumigate/planeswalkers/cruel reality/etc as slots in the deck to get card advantage, but also directly impact the board. For decks running approach it would be slightly better.
Id say the deck wants 0-1 search vs aggro, 2 vs midrange, and 3 vs control. But maybe field of ruin will be a thing and then maybe it wont be as good.
However, Search for Azcanta gives you value (albeit minor) on T3, while the cards you mention give you value until T5+... it's not much, but it could mean the difference between topdecking what you need in a tight situation vs a midrange deck. I agree that it has no good applications vs pure aggro: but we've already stablished that on average, the % of aggro you're going to see is not that significant. Ultimately, it will depend on your LGS metagame and the events you're attending I guess.
I think it's the instant-speed replacement for Grasp of Darkness that we should use. It's not quite as good, but it's easier to cast and gets the job done just as well against 99% of creatures we would have killed with grasp. Hazoret can still activate his ability but he can only swing with 1 power, and enchantment removal is verrrrry uncommon in the current meta.
No, they have to sacrifice something, and only lose 5 if they cant.
So if your opponent has 1 creature or 1 PW on the board, you can play cruel reality, and in their upkeep they have to sacrifice it.
I'v had a couple opponents make the same mistake you did thinking it is a punisher card, and then the card does live up to its name when they realize anything they play will die without you needing to do anything, and if the board is kept clear it is a 4 turn clock (with haste). gg.
Here is the thing though, if you are dead to Hazoret on turn 7 and you play this... you are still dead to Hazoret - unless they have 5 life already and no other creatures to sac... With Approach of the Second Sun in the same scenario, you are not dead to Hazoret.
As stated above me, we are now in the discussion where Cruel Reality is defined as a win-more card. You need to already be ahead for it to secure a win. Approach of the Second Sun stabilizes you when you are behind, or helps you stabilize. Then it just wins. You can win from behind with it, you cannot win from behind with Cruel Reality, and I think that is an incredibly important distinction for a 7 mana sorcery speed spell.
Search for azcanta, if it flips on like turn 6 or 7 you need to pay 3 extra mana to find a card, and then cast that card before it has an impact on the board. It costs 2 and can get under things, so its amazing in the control mirror, like insanely good. But vs something fast, I often dont have the time to cast it especially on the draw, it does nothing the turn I play it, and needs more mana put into it, Id rather have something like gearhulk/scarab god/fumigate/planeswalkers/cruel reality/etc as slots in the deck to get card advantage, but also directly impact the board. For decks running approach it would be slightly better.
Id say the deck wants 0-1 search vs aggro, 2 vs midrange, and 3 vs control. But maybe field of ruin will be a thing and then maybe it wont be as good.
Most of the time I have had it flip in testing, it is already at the point where I am looking to snowball into a timely win. The idea of using it to dig each turn is a bit sloppy because after it flips, the pseudo-scrying has already done most of the damage. Incremental opportunities to find game swinging cards is where the real value is, the flip is just gravy in the majority of situations.
Statistically, 2 copies is not going to make or break your opening hands and statistically if it is only a concern vs less that ~20% of any field... then you are favored running it for the 80% advantage against the field. Until my testing or the meta solidifies those percentages to one that is unfavorable, I think the argument against Search for Azcanta is rather weak.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
If for example your opponent has a creature, or a planeswalker in play, and you have nothing. That is being behind on board, right?
Cruel reality pulls you way ahead in that situation, since it gets rid of their threat, and then sticks in play to deal with anything else they might play, while providing you with a win condition too.
If you have 7+ mana and they only have a single non-Carnage Tyrant threat... I think you could muster up any other card to keep you safe in that situation and you are already stable and in a position to win.
If you have 7 mana and 6 damage across 3 creatures staring you down and you cast Cruel Reality, you are not staving off more than the 7 damage you would stave off from Approach of the Second Sun.
Saying "behind on board" and "behind in game state" are two different things entirely, especially given that Control decks often forgo the idea of board presence - meaning you are always behind on board but not necessarily behind in the game-state.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Not to mention, you're never the beatdown. You will never be in a situation where a midrange/aggro deck will be clocked. In the situation described above, with 6 damage incoming next turn: if you're at 3 life and cast Approach, you survive even with a bolt followup; if you cast Reality, you lose. Just to give an example.
That being said, I could see some cases where it could be better than Approach, if we're considering both to be a single copy in the deck... I guess Reality would win in any situation where you're rolling a single copy and you have time for it to win you the game, vs a single copy of Approach where you could lose before your singleton pops again. What concerns me is that paying 7 mana to cast something that can be circumvented so easily while you're already on the ropes doesn't seem like a situation we would want to be in.
The TLDR for me boils down to this: if you're facing any deck that goes wide or has burn in its package, there's simply no contest, Approach will always be better.
Well everyone, it looks like the threads are being archived tomorrow. I'll try to start a new primer type thread for U(x) control lists. That way we are covered for UB and UW. I'll likely write the main win-cons as Scarab God and Approach, unless there's any objections!
Well everyone, it looks like the threads are being archived tomorrow. I'll try to start a new primer type thread for U(x) control lists. That way we are covered for UB and UW. I'll likely write the main win-cons as Scarab God and Approach, unless there's any objections!
I think we should consider 4 color splashes as a very real possibility with the mana changes. I'd prefer if we make it UB(x), since some decks like pure UW and pure UR are fundamentally different. I agree with The Scarab God and Torrential Gearhulk as poster childs tho.
Well everyone, it looks like the threads are being archived tomorrow. I'll try to start a new primer type thread for U(x) control lists. That way we are covered for UB and UW. I'll likely write the main win-cons as Scarab God and Approach, unless there's any objections!
I think we should consider 4 color splashes as a very real possibility with the mana changes. I'd prefer if we make it UB(x), since some decks like pure UW and pure UR are fundamentally different. I agree with The Scarab God and Torrential Gearhulk as poster childs tho.
I initially began with UBx cores, and tbh the black should really focus on white spells. White has way more efficient removal spells overall and really the only thing I found myself using black for was Fatal Push, Vraska's Contempt, and Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh. The black cards really are splash-able and while I feel they are necessary, the real value is in the white cards when paired with blue. The deck functions better slanting towards UWb over UBw imo.
The post cards for the various Control decks I have tried have really been Torrential Gearhulk, Settle the Wreckage, and Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh. I run The Scarab God in various numbers between 1-2 main and 2-3 side... and really he has been more of a glorified blocker a fair amount of the time. He blocks and kills things while eating removal - far more than he ever reanimates something. Which is, surprisingly handy as funny as it is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
I know the UB Tezzeret Improvise deck probably isn't as competitive as a standard Control deck, but if one was to play it, is it better to play Metallic Rebuke or Supreme Will? I am not sure if the discount is better or having the late game filtering.
I am running 4 Reverse Engineer for draw and 9 artifacts
I initially began with UBx cores, and tbh the black should really focus on white spells. White has way more efficient removal spells overall and really the only thing I found myself using black for was Fatal Push, Vraska's Contempt, and Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh. The black cards really are splash-able and while I feel they are necessary, the real value is in the white cards when paired with blue. The deck functions better slanting towards UWb over UBw imo.
The post cards for the various Control decks I have tried have really been Torrential Gearhulk, Settle the Wreckage, and Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh. I run The Scarab God in various numbers between 1-2 main and 2-3 side... and really he has been more of a glorified blocker a fair amount of the time. He blocks and kills things while eating removal - far more than he ever reanimates something. Which is, surprisingly handy as funny as it is.
I know the UB Tezzeret Improvise deck probably isn't as competitive as a standard Control deck, but if one was to play it, is it better to play Metallic Rebuke or Supreme Will? I am not sure if the discount is better or having the late game filtering.
I am running 4 Reverse Engineer for draw and 9 artifacts
I feel Supreme Will is almost strictly better. It's never dead, unlike every other soft counter in the format.
If they only have 1 creature on turn 7, you are in a strong position to win regardless of whether it is Approach or Cruel. NOBODY here is denying that.
What we are denying is the ability for Cruel Reality to stabilize you more efficiently than Approach of the Second Sun when the above board state is NOT the case. That is the context we are evaluating the card in because it is the only context that really matters for this comparison.
The TLDR of this entire discussion is that when you are ahead, both cards are win-more. When you are behind, Approach of the Second Sun is far more efficient helping you stabilize where Cruel Reality is much less so.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Search for Azcanta is not too slow. As a matter of fact we have found it to be powerful enough to run as a 4 of because we absolutely want to hit it on turn 2. Some of of us have forgone Censor completely for it since it gains so much more value over the course of the game. Being able to control every draw step past turn 2 is very powerful. I had opponents commenting on how they couldn't beat it. By adding Farm and of course Aether Meltdown we still have enough early interaction that allowing early creatures resolve that Censor would normally hit is fine and we can make up for it by always hitting a sweeper on curve.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm actually thinking i may do cast out over both, since it costs the same as vraskas but hits much more.
One thing I will say about the list I posted that runs 6-8 wrath effects, I have a nearly 100% winrate vs temur energy and the new dino deck. That said, Ramured is a real tough matchup.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
1)The one copy of Approach just steals me games sometimes. Its nice to board it out against decks you play it against because they think you are on something you may not be and it then gives you an advantage after board. I, as of now, have no intentions of cutting it for another win con of another type.
2)The Field of Ruin is a nice Evolving Wilds replacement. It comes into play untapped as a land and can be used to just go get an untapped basic if needed. Plus the added effect of hitting opposing Azaanta's, or Ramuap Ruins, or just hitting a land and potentially cutting a vehicles opp off a color, which has happened multiple times because they dont run enough basics.
3)As has been stated a few posts up, Settle the Wreckage is F***ing fantastic. Card literally does everything I want it to do and handing my opp mana has never been something I care about. As of now I have played 353 matches with the deck and I have won 294 of them. In all of those matches there was only one time where I gave my opponent land and it was relevant. The fact that they come into play tapped is nice cause it means you get to untap and hold open whatever before they can follow up with something.
4) I bring in Vona against control mirrors as being able to present a threat that can deal with their threats is great. I also bring it in against aggressive strategies due to the 4/4 life-linking, vigilance body. It stops any reasonable attacks and allows me chances to catch up or just pull ahead, especially when coupled with gifted aetherborn and sanguine sacrament.
5)My buddy and I saw sanguine sacrament and wanted to try it since the day it got spoiled. We started with 2 in the main and 1 in the board and have cut it down to just one main before even playing a game. Because it has a huge upside in the mid to late game we wanted to keep one but we knew the mana requirement needed to make it good/great would prevent us from double spelling any turn we wanted to really cast it. I want it against aggressive decks and against everything else I board it out. Because of the early interaction I have through turn 4/5/6 when I finally cast it on turn 6-9 its very difficult for them to come back from a 8-14 point life swing when im also dealing with threats. and presenting my own. We tried for about 100 games without it and added in a 3rd Vraska's Contempt, or a 3rd cast out, or a 1 of ixalans binding but in the end we just wanted the sacrament back.
As a note. We tried walk the plank in my list for the first 150 games and found that it being double black and sorcery just wasnt where we wanted to be on the early turns without presenting a body with it that did things like gifted aetherborn does. So far I havent missed the 2 mana kill spell but that doesnt mean the format wont change and we may need to add it in later.
My list
2 Irrigated Farmland
2 Field of Ruin
4 Aether Hub
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Island
4 Drowned Catacomb
Win Conditions
1 Approach of the Second Sun
2 Torrential Gearhulk
2 The Scarab God
4 Fatal Push
2 Vraska's Contempt
2 Doomfall
2 Cast Out
3 Settle the Wreckage
Counters
3 Censor
2 Essence Scatter
3 Disallow
Draw
2 Search for Azcanta
3 Glimmer of Genius
3 Opt
Other
1 Sanguine Sacrament
3 Duress
2 Negate
3 Gifted Aetherborn
1 Entrancing Melody
2 Forsake the Worldly
2 Lost Legacy
2 Vona, Butcher of Magan
Standard: Whatever Control is Best
Modern: Nothing
Legacy; Miracles RIP
The issue I see is that he just stacks up the 3 spot even more, but I feel like you may be able to adjust that by adjusting what your turn 2 focuses on.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
The problem is the exact caveat you have pointed out. Of the majority of decks I've tested against, the most consistently lethal ones have been mono Red, and there have been many. If the format ends up being slower, sure I don't mind playing it, but I still think there are better spells to put in that slot.
4x Aether Hub
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Fetid Pools
2x Field of Ruin
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Irrigated Farmland
2x Island
1x Plains
3x Swamp
Enchantment (2)
2x Search for Azcanta
Instant (20)
3x Censor
1x Disallow
3x Essence Scatter
4x Fatal Push
3x Glimmer of Genius
3x Settle the Wreckage
1x Supreme Will
2x Vraska's Contempt
2x Doomfall
Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana, Death's Majesty
Creature (8)
2x Champion of Wits
1x Gonti, Lord of Luxury
2x The Scarab God
3x Torrential Gearhulk
1x Confiscation Coup
3x Duress
2x Forsake the Worldly
3x Gifted Aetherborn
2x Lost Legacy
2x Negate
2x Vona, Butcher of Magan
Basic changes include replacing Opt with Champion of Wits for better Liliana synergy, both in creature type and graveyard fuel, and adding a 3rd copy of Torrential Gearhulk to take advantage of the large number of instants.
1 copy of Gonti, Lord of Luxury takes the place of Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet... compared with Hostage Taker, they both die to Lightning Strike, while Gonti gives you value after it dies; if they both live, pirate acts as removal, which would make it better, but it can't steal Carnage Tyrant, while Gonti can. Gonti also makes a better blocker, so I'm siding with him for now.
The rest is pretty much the same. Similar counter/removal ratios as other lists as well as 3 MB board wipes (which might be too low, could cut some cards for 2 more Fumigate MB) and 2 The Scarab God. I'd like to experiment with a single copy of Vraska, Relic Seeker as well, but that might be getting a bit too greedy and cute.
Thoughts?
Gifted Aetherborn has deathtouch as well as lifelink, I want to be able to trade with the creatures it blocks and Scarab God can bring him back later as a 4/4. Also, Aetherborn coming down on turn 2 is very relevant against aggro decks. If they want to spend their turn 2 getting in for less because they want to strike my guy deal. Means its one less guy I have to deal with quickly.
Personally I prefer the instant speed and ability to cycle if I dont need it. Not letting them cast the card that is under it doesn't feel stronger than that.
I said it was bad against faster aggro, however in my testing Fast Aggro has only been about 14% of the matches I have played against. That is all the fast aggro decks clumped together. Everything else has been various control decks, midrange, big dino decks, or god pharaoh decks, with a very small splash of tempo based pirate decks. The percentage of the decks that Search is good against when going into a wide open large field is way more than the downside that its poor against fast aggro decks.
Standard: Whatever Control is Best
Modern: Nothing
Legacy; Miracles RIP
Honestly, I have had good results with an Esper mana core and getting in a 4th color for Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh. G may be a littler harder to make work because the buddy lands are only allied colors. But I do think it is worth testing 4 color splashes right now. Mana feels surprisingly good.
2 Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
Artifact
3 Treasure Map
Creature
3 Torrential Gearhulk
1 The Scarab God
Enchantment
2 Search for Azcanta
Instant
3 Settle the Wreckage
3 Glimmer of Genius
1 Pull from Tomorrow
4 Fatal Push
2 Hour of Glory
2 Vraska's Contempt
3 Disallow
2 Essence Scatter
3 Opt
1 Approach of the Second Sun
Land
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Dragonskull Summit
3 Aether Hub
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Irrigated Farmland
3 Fetid Pools
2 Vona, Butcher of Magan
3 Sunscourge Champion
2 Negate
1 Sanguine Sacrament
2 Walk the Plank
2 Doomfall
3 Duress
I think that is a fair argument for Gifted Aetherborn. I feel like removal right now is actually pretty decent, so I didn't value the Deathtouch as much. I also play Treasure Map though which means I am developing that on turn 2 instead.
As for the Search for Azcanta card being bad vs hyper aggro decks, I agree. I am sitting at roughly 15% for total games played vs hyper aggro and I think that translates well to why it is a poor argument to have against the card. If you relate that to the % of field, I would rather poise my main with a couple copies of a card that is very strong against 85% of the field in game 1, than hedge vs 15% in the opening week.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
I think Treasure Map would be a reasonable cut against decks where you are bringing in Gifted Aetherborn. So I dont see them being in competition with each other for the 2 slot.
Standard: Whatever Control is Best
Modern: Nothing
Legacy; Miracles RIP
Thank you very much for your detailed response. I will be trying those cards the next 2 weeks.
I don't think Approach of the Second Sun are that comparable when we are talking about relieving pressure. The difference between them sacrificing something of their choice and just straight gaining 7 life, can be pretty substantial. With Cruel Reality you are also giving them options to delay the win potentially even longer than Approach of the Second Sun can be delayed. Saying it can take care of anything is a bit of a fallacy in that it does not really do that until they are at 5 life and completely out of gas. Otherwise they can just trade 5 life to kill you with Hazoret, assuming you lived that long anyways.
Search for Azcanta is slow? It is 2 copies and you are arguing for a 7 mana enchantment. I am confused. I think people grotesquely underestimate the ability to virtually double the odds of drawing an out each turn. If you play poker, you probably know why those small percentages add up and why they are valuable. I believe Patrick Chapin noted that these kind of upkeep scrying capabilities have always been on the verge of being more playable than trash, but there was little to incentivize playing a card that was merely alright. He also noted that all those cards cost 3 or had no major upside, which Search for Azcanta does.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Yeah, I saw the same thing with mana. It looks extremely easy to splash for something on T6, so I guess the better question is if Vraska, Relic Seeker can work as a wincon on her own.
Isn't it a win-more card in that situation tho? If you're at T7 and you managed to control the board and stabilize life total to the point where you can safely cast this, aren't you winning already? I can see its applications vs a clear board that resolves a Carnage Tyrant the turn after and threatens to kill, but at that point it's just a glorified Doomfall. What would your sequencing look like? T5 Fumigate >>> T6 Torrential Gearhulk >>> T7 Cruel Reality?
However, Search for Azcanta gives you value (albeit minor) on T3, while the cards you mention give you value until T5+... it's not much, but it could mean the difference between topdecking what you need in a tight situation vs a midrange deck. I agree that it has no good applications vs pure aggro: but we've already stablished that on average, the % of aggro you're going to see is not that significant. Ultimately, it will depend on your LGS metagame and the events you're attending I guess.
I think it's the instant-speed replacement for Grasp of Darkness that we should use. It's not quite as good, but it's easier to cast and gets the job done just as well against 99% of creatures we would have killed with grasp. Hazoret can still activate his ability but he can only swing with 1 power, and enchantment removal is verrrrry uncommon in the current meta.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Here is the thing though, if you are dead to Hazoret on turn 7 and you play this... you are still dead to Hazoret - unless they have 5 life already and no other creatures to sac... With Approach of the Second Sun in the same scenario, you are not dead to Hazoret.
As stated above me, we are now in the discussion where Cruel Reality is defined as a win-more card. You need to already be ahead for it to secure a win. Approach of the Second Sun stabilizes you when you are behind, or helps you stabilize. Then it just wins. You can win from behind with it, you cannot win from behind with Cruel Reality, and I think that is an incredibly important distinction for a 7 mana sorcery speed spell.
Most of the time I have had it flip in testing, it is already at the point where I am looking to snowball into a timely win. The idea of using it to dig each turn is a bit sloppy because after it flips, the pseudo-scrying has already done most of the damage. Incremental opportunities to find game swinging cards is where the real value is, the flip is just gravy in the majority of situations.
Statistically, 2 copies is not going to make or break your opening hands and statistically if it is only a concern vs less that ~20% of any field... then you are favored running it for the 80% advantage against the field. Until my testing or the meta solidifies those percentages to one that is unfavorable, I think the argument against Search for Azcanta is rather weak.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
If you have 7+ mana and they only have a single non-Carnage Tyrant threat... I think you could muster up any other card to keep you safe in that situation and you are already stable and in a position to win.
If you have 7 mana and 6 damage across 3 creatures staring you down and you cast Cruel Reality, you are not staving off more than the 7 damage you would stave off from Approach of the Second Sun.
Saying "behind on board" and "behind in game state" are two different things entirely, especially given that Control decks often forgo the idea of board presence - meaning you are always behind on board but not necessarily behind in the game-state.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
That being said, I could see some cases where it could be better than Approach, if we're considering both to be a single copy in the deck... I guess Reality would win in any situation where you're rolling a single copy and you have time for it to win you the game, vs a single copy of Approach where you could lose before your singleton pops again. What concerns me is that paying 7 mana to cast something that can be circumvented so easily while you're already on the ropes doesn't seem like a situation we would want to be in.
The TLDR for me boils down to this: if you're facing any deck that goes wide or has burn in its package, there's simply no contest, Approach will always be better.
I think we should consider 4 color splashes as a very real possibility with the mana changes. I'd prefer if we make it UB(x), since some decks like pure UW and pure UR are fundamentally different. I agree with The Scarab God and Torrential Gearhulk as poster childs tho.
I initially began with UBx cores, and tbh the black should really focus on white spells. White has way more efficient removal spells overall and really the only thing I found myself using black for was Fatal Push, Vraska's Contempt, and Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh. The black cards really are splash-able and while I feel they are necessary, the real value is in the white cards when paired with blue. The deck functions better slanting towards UWb over UBw imo.
The post cards for the various Control decks I have tried have really been Torrential Gearhulk, Settle the Wreckage, and Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh. I run The Scarab God in various numbers between 1-2 main and 2-3 side... and really he has been more of a glorified blocker a fair amount of the time. He blocks and kills things while eating removal - far more than he ever reanimates something. Which is, surprisingly handy as funny as it is.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
I am running 4 Reverse Engineer for draw and 9 artifacts
THIS
I feel Supreme Will is almost strictly better. It's never dead, unlike every other soft counter in the format.
If they only have 1 creature on turn 7, you are in a strong position to win regardless of whether it is Approach or Cruel. NOBODY here is denying that.
What we are denying is the ability for Cruel Reality to stabilize you more efficiently than Approach of the Second Sun when the above board state is NOT the case. That is the context we are evaluating the card in because it is the only context that really matters for this comparison.
The TLDR of this entire discussion is that when you are ahead, both cards are win-more. When you are behind, Approach of the Second Sun is far more efficient helping you stabilize where Cruel Reality is much less so.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-standard-constructed-league-2017-09-28
I like how you can bury farm yo use market in some cases, or any other graveyard value.
When you get both sides in the table you really get what you want.