It's fairly basic but seems to do alright. I would really like to change one Supreme Will for Commit // Memory or Consign // Oblivion. Largely though, The Scarab God is a boss.
Seems good. I do have some questions though.
No wipes? With both lili (recommend trying 2 btw) and illumination, have you thought of yahenni's?
Why 4 hulks? Maybe got one of those for sorin? I did that and haven't looked back.
No Pull? Too slow in the meta?
Very curious on your board too. Are you running authority? If not, why? Assuming tendrils and at least 1 fumigate? Anything for control?
My meta seems to be either control or balls to the wall aggro.
@jon, I like 1-2 Scarab, 1 sorin and 2 lili. Will probs be moving jace/ob to the board, just gotta figure out how haha.
I have 2 Yahenni's Expertise in the sideboard. Largely I find that I don't really need sweepers except against UW Monument when it gets going. Otherwise, I generally have enough removal to recover. Also did I mention that The Scarab God is a boss?
I'll have to get home to list my sideboard. I don't remember most of it since I've been changing it a lot. I can tell you that I don't run Authority of the Consuls. I have Blessed Alliance instead. I think there may be two now. Authority requires that I have an untapped white source and at least one of the enchantment on turn one to be really effective. It's still good later on, but that's generally what I would want from it, which means I'll need at least three of them in my sideboard possibly? I'm not sure on that but it seems like a lot of slots.
If my metagame had less Ramunap Red, I would consider Pull from Tomorrow. As it is, I can't risk having to mulligan because of it.
I hadn't thought about going +blessed in the board instead...seems like something to try. I'll free sb slots too.
Also, how are people boarding vs red? Keep 1 or 2 negate? For Chandra. I'm also debating a sorcery speed pw kill spell, mainly due to keeping in unmaking vs red seems weird, but it answers hazoret and Chandra.
Thanks both for your opinions. Unfortunately, Lili is a card I don't own, and while I usually rattle on to others about how stupid it is for not wanting to buy cards when they are close to rotation, I don't think I'll be shelling out that much for them with only a month or so to play with them. One option that I forgot to put on my previous post was to run 1 Sorin and 2 Bolas, forgetting the Scarab God entirely...
Splashing w and r seems greedy tbh. I'd test with sorin over bolas to see which one you like more. I think without lili, 2 God and 2 walkers could work, but have to be careful about curve.
Lili rotates? Isn't it just battle and oath?
EDIT: just looked it up...i hope we get some good early non red removal in the next set...i don't enjoy playing red in std (outside of purphy, when he was legal). Hazoret looks like he will be quite the force after this rotation depending on what removal we get..
Thanks both for your opinions. Unfortunately, Lili is a card I don't own, and while I usually rattle on to others about how stupid it is for not wanting to buy cards when they are close to rotation, I don't think I'll be shelling out that much for them with only a month or so to play with them. One option that I forgot to put on my previous post was to run 1 Sorin and 2 Bolas, forgetting the Scarab God entirely...
I don't think Liliana is really necessary. Its just another way to apply pressure. As wide open as Standard is now, I think I would prefer other plneswalkers to Liliana or even other threats. She just happens to cost 3-CMC with some relevant abilities.
I'd disagree with the "some relevant abilities". Got a lot of milage out of all 3 abilitiez in the past 2 weeks (rebuying hulk and kalitas - granted not often, but not that rare either). But yes, her main advantage is jamming her t3, and slowing the game down with a basically game ending ult.
I have 2 Yahenni's Expertise in the sideboard. Largely I find that I don't really need sweepers except against UW Monument when it gets going. Otherwise, I generally have enough removal to recover. Also did I mention that The Scarab God is a boss?
I'll have to get home to list my sideboard. I don't remember most of it since I've been changing it a lot. I can tell you that I don't run Authority of the Consuls. I have Blessed Alliance instead. I think there may be two now. Authority requires that I have an untapped white source and at least one of the enchantment on turn one to be really effective. It's still good later on, but that's generally what I would want from it, which means I'll need at least three of them in my sideboard possibly? I'm not sure on that but it seems like a lot of slots.
If my metagame had less Ramunap Red, I would consider Pull from Tomorrow. As it is, I can't risk having to mulligan because of it.
I LOVE Blessed Alliance (I play 2 MD), but Authority is absurd right now. There's not a ton of red here, but a lot of aggro in general, and it's been a house. T1 or T2 Authority, especially on the play, makes red a whole different match. I'm X-0 vs. red (not an exaggeration). I'm down to 2 Pull considering taking them out or moving to SB. Authority slows them down so much, it's like a free two turns. I can't stress how insane it is right now. If you have a lot of red in your meta, make it easy on yourself and crush them. I'm ending SB games at 15 or more life regularly, and I side out all Disallow, leaving no counters for PW besides Supreme Will. Authority frees up so much time and resources, I'm getting away with it. Playing 3. Considering 4, but it just doesn't seem needed since they can't beat me right now. Also good vs Emerge.
How often are you able to drop it t1 or 2? Chaos and I are kinda UBw (anguished, vents and alliance with me having sorin on top on that). I don't want to distort my mana base too much for it either. So that's my issue.
My amonkhet cards finally arrived today. So hoping to get a rebuild happening for the weekend. Will post soon hopefully.
How often are you able to drop it t1 or 2? Chaos and I are kinda UBw (anguished, vents and alliance with me having sorin on top on that). I don't want to distort my mana base too much for it either. So that's my issue.
My amonkhet cards finally arrived today. So hoping to get a rebuild happening for the weekend. Will post soon hopefully.
I assume this is to me. I only have 3 T1 white sources, so T2 is the usual. I will mulligan if I have no Authority, or if the hand's curve is high. I've kept and won off T1 Authority with no more plays until T3. Backbreaking vs red. Multiples are just flat out unfair. That's the temptation of going to 4 SB. I've only dropped them back to back in one game, and that was the most lopsided games I've played against a Tier 1 deck in ages. I probably will if I think GP DC will have a lot of red. It almost feels like a bye at this point.
BTW, testing a new mana base to: 1. Maybe fit Bolas in, and 2. To have less lands come into play tapped. I think I'll be able to T1 Authority a lot more.
Made a couple of changes to my list, largely based on the spell distribution of the 5-0 list posted above. My top end has one less finisher, but they are higher costs - I want to test 2 Bolas and a Sorin. That allowed me to add in an extra Disallow, and I decided to run one Confirm Suspicions over the fourth Glimmer. Two more hard counters seemed like a good plan, although the fourth Glimmer may come back, as that's the only energy source for Aether Hub, and therefore the only way to fuel the PWs. I also decided to run a Never over the second Negate, just for a bit more flexibility in landed PWs.
I've found Overwhelming Denial to be great against control mirrors, as it has the "uncounterable" part. It's often good to counter something, have them throw a counter of their own, then OD the original spell for the surge cost. Also, the single Desert in there seems weird, but it's a throwback to the idea of playing extra, off-colour, Temples just to get late game scry. It's worked OK so far.
I'm wondering whether to drop to two Censor/Essence Scatter, and put the two Doomfall back in the main, or even run a fourth (and potentially fifth) hard counter (e.g. Disallow).
I assume this is to me. I only have 3 T1 white sources, so T2 is the usual. I will mulligan if I have no Authority, or if the hand's curve is high. I've kept and won off T1 Authority with no more plays until T3. Backbreaking vs red. Multiples are just flat out unfair. That's the temptation of going to 4 SB. I've only dropped them back to back in one game, and that was the most lopsided games I've played against a Tier 1 deck in ages. I probably will if I think GP DC will have a lot of red. It almost feels like a bye at this point.
BTW, testing a new mana base to: 1. Maybe fit Bolas in, and 2. To have less lands come into play tapped. I think I'll be able to T1 Authority a lot more.
It was. Sorry, using quotes is a pain for me atm. Only have a phone. You also run wilds, don't you? I have 9 W sources, 6 cpt t1. I'll see how it goes in my rebuild. You still run 2 kalitas too, right?
Looks ok Jon, I dislike only 3 draw spells. I also dislike maxing out on counters, due to them not being great when you are being beaten down already. Maybe 1 downfall over a counter? I'm really interested in how the desert works out!
It was. Sorry, using quotes is a pain for me atm. Only have a phone. You also run wilds, don't you? Correct. 2 MD I have 9 W sources, 6 cpt t1. I'll see how it goes in my rebuild. You still run 2 kalitas too, right? 2 SB. Not great right now, but the exile effect is really good vs. Zombies and Emerge. Tempted to shave one for Authority 4.
Looks ok Jon, I dislike only 3 draw spells. I also dislike maxing out on counters, due to them not being great when you are being beaten down already. Maybe 1 downfall over a counter? I'm really interested in how the desert works out!
Looks ok Jon, I dislike only 3 draw spells. I also dislike maxing out on counters, due to them not being great when you are being beaten down already. Maybe 1 downfall over a counter? I'm really interested in how the desert works out!
Downfall? You mean an additional copy of Never // Return? I have one still in the list, but could see two being right, maybe pulling the Murder entirely, sacrificing instant speed for potential PW removal. Like you, I'm on the fence with the draw spells. Technically, there's more, with Censors and Supreme Wills. It seemed to be ok on the 5-0 list, so I'm willing to try it once (and then likely curse and add in a Confirm Suspicions and another Glimmer).
Downfall? You mean an additional copy of Never // Return? I have one still in the list, but could see two being right, maybe pulling the Murder entirely, sacrificing instant speed for potential PW removal. Like you, I'm on the fence with the draw spells. Technically, there's more, with Censors and Supreme Wills. It seemed to be ok on the 5-0 list, so I'm willing to try it once (and then likely curse and add in a Confirm Suspicions and another Glimmer).
I swear I wrote Doomfall..yea..autoed..
I think the correct term I meant was card advantage. Will is selection and cycling is redraw. If you follow what I mean.
I am unsure on the mb alliance and pull. Pull because it's more draw power that illumination.
Sideboard:
Unsure if the mana can support the authority. Do I need more hub? Add wilds?
Unsure if fumigate and tendrils are the correct wipes. I'm kinda worried a little about go wide and hydra decks. Or just big creature midrange.
Would love to fit in a negate and summary dismissal/overwhelming denial but unsure where. Maybe doomfall? I do like the unconditional edict though.
Should the murder become never//return?
This snuck through on CFB yesterday. Gabriel Nassif gives a comprehensive guide to control in Standard, working through what he says "start[s] with the one I’ve liked the least and ending with the one that has shown the most promise." The one that shows most promise is our very own UB Control. The article shows two lists, one that went 8-0 in a MTGO PTQ, and then his tweaked version of it. It's a really good read, especially seeing as it has a VERY extensive sideboarding guide.
Couple more decks lurking around today. The first is in a TCGPlayer article, but the mana base looks a little clunky, IMO. Also, he has Gearhulks as the only win-con, which (again IMO) is wrong.
The other was a 5-0 list from MTGO this week. A lot of 3-ofs to keep the diversity of answers.
EDIT: This deck was also deck-of-the-day on the MTG Daily update for 23 Aug.
It's interesting that both of these lists run 3 copies of Censor, which seems to go against the comments of Gabriel Nassif on CFB who says "remember kids, never play less than the full playset"... Also of note is the choice of where to play Never // Return (main or side). Again, I'm leaning towards the sideboard, as in the second list (although they do have a Commit // Memory). I've found it's often better to hold a counter if you're expecting a PW, instead of having a sorcery speed answer.
I changed it up slightly from last time. I dropped 1 Blessed Alliance for another To the Slaughter. I also dropped Flaying Tendrils for Essence Extraction. Kefnet is questionable right now. I didn't really know what else to put there. Contraband Kingpin does a ton of work against Ramunap Red.
I'm also considering Hour of Glory for my sideboard as well.
Is Pull From Tomorrow being ditched from these decks because it is too slow? It was hailed as the best draw spell or something.
Is it solely due to Ramunap Red? If that doesn't exist at the local meta, is it correct to keep Pull From Tomorrow in?
Pretty much. I've also seen some aggro-ish variation of Zombies that are a bit more "rawr-smash" too. I just can't afford to be on the draw and have to mulligan an otherwise decent hand because I have 2 Pull from Tomorrow in my hand or other questionable cards. Even when you're not facing off against an aggro deck, how often do you want to see more than 1 Pull in your opening hand?
Is Pull From Tomorrow being ditched from these decks because it is too slow? It was hailed as the best draw spell or something.
Is it solely due to Ramunap Red? If that doesn't exist at the local meta, is it correct to keep Pull From Tomorrow in?
Nassif addresses this, kind of, in the article linked in post 1192:
I really like 1 copy of Pull from Tomorrow in U/R, a card I hated in U/W Control—I always felt it was worse than Illumination—but U/R plays out differently. Your curve is lower, you don’t have as many powerful cards, and overall you have to work a little harder for your wins, and the huge boost in card advantage is welcome.
So, basically, if you're running just 4 Gearhulks as wincons (as he had in his UR list), plus a lot of low cost spells, you're going to exhaust your hand pretty quick, and need substantial refill. PfT good. If you're running higher cost cards, and more importantly better mana sinks (i.e. Scarab God, Kalitas), then PfT isn't what you want as you can get better value elsewhere. Plus, remember it's a terrible Gearhulk target!
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Seems good. I do have some questions though.
No wipes? With both lili (recommend trying 2 btw) and illumination, have you thought of yahenni's?
Why 4 hulks? Maybe got one of those for sorin? I did that and haven't looked back.
No Pull? Too slow in the meta?
Very curious on your board too. Are you running authority? If not, why? Assuming tendrils and at least 1 fumigate? Anything for control?
My meta seems to be either control or balls to the wall aggro.
@jon, I like 1-2 Scarab, 1 sorin and 2 lili. Will probs be moving jace/ob to the board, just gotta figure out how haha.
I'll have to get home to list my sideboard. I don't remember most of it since I've been changing it a lot. I can tell you that I don't run Authority of the Consuls. I have Blessed Alliance instead. I think there may be two now. Authority requires that I have an untapped white source and at least one of the enchantment on turn one to be really effective. It's still good later on, but that's generally what I would want from it, which means I'll need at least three of them in my sideboard possibly? I'm not sure on that but it seems like a lot of slots.
If my metagame had less Ramunap Red, I would consider Pull from Tomorrow. As it is, I can't risk having to mulligan because of it.
Also, how are people boarding vs red? Keep 1 or 2 negate? For Chandra. I'm also debating a sorcery speed pw kill spell, mainly due to keeping in unmaking vs red seems weird, but it answers hazoret and Chandra.
Anyone running lost legacy/disposses?
EDIT: Been liking tendrils as a 1of mb so far.
Lili rotates? Isn't it just battle and oath?
EDIT: just looked it up...i hope we get some good early non red removal in the next set...i don't enjoy playing red in std (outside of purphy, when he was legal). Hazoret looks like he will be quite the force after this rotation depending on what removal we get..
I don't think Liliana is really necessary. Its just another way to apply pressure. As wide open as Standard is now, I think I would prefer other plneswalkers to Liliana or even other threats. She just happens to cost 3-CMC with some relevant abilities.
EDIT: spelling and grammar..fat phone fingers
4 Aether Hub
4 Choked Estuary
3 Fetid Pools
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Island
7 Swamp
Creatures
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 The Scarab God
3 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Flaying Tendrils
2 Disallow
3 Essence Scatter
4 Fatal Push
4 Glimmer of Genius
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Negate
4 Supreme Will
3 Censor
1 Murder
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Negate
1 Consign // Oblivion
1 Essence Extraction
4 Gifted Aetherborn
1 Hour of Glory
1 Kefnet the Mindful
2 Summary Dismissal
1 Dispel
I LOVE Blessed Alliance (I play 2 MD), but Authority is absurd right now. There's not a ton of red here, but a lot of aggro in general, and it's been a house. T1 or T2 Authority, especially on the play, makes red a whole different match. I'm X-0 vs. red (not an exaggeration). I'm down to 2 Pull considering taking them out or moving to SB. Authority slows them down so much, it's like a free two turns. I can't stress how insane it is right now. If you have a lot of red in your meta, make it easy on yourself and crush them. I'm ending SB games at 15 or more life regularly, and I side out all Disallow, leaving no counters for PW besides Supreme Will. Authority frees up so much time and resources, I'm getting away with it. Playing 3. Considering 4, but it just doesn't seem needed since they can't beat me right now. Also good vs Emerge.
My amonkhet cards finally arrived today. So hoping to get a rebuild happening for the weekend. Will post soon hopefully.
I assume this is to me. I only have 3 T1 white sources, so T2 is the usual. I will mulligan if I have no Authority, or if the hand's curve is high. I've kept and won off T1 Authority with no more plays until T3. Backbreaking vs red. Multiples are just flat out unfair. That's the temptation of going to 4 SB. I've only dropped them back to back in one game, and that was the most lopsided games I've played against a Tier 1 deck in ages. I probably will if I think GP DC will have a lot of red. It almost feels like a bye at this point.
BTW, testing a new mana base to: 1. Maybe fit Bolas in, and 2. To have less lands come into play tapped. I think I'll be able to T1 Authority a lot more.
I've found Overwhelming Denial to be great against control mirrors, as it has the "uncounterable" part. It's often good to counter something, have them throw a counter of their own, then OD the original spell for the surge cost. Also, the single Desert in there seems weird, but it's a throwback to the idea of playing extra, off-colour, Temples just to get late game scry. It's worked OK so far.
Thoughts?
3 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (3)
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2 Nicol Bolas, God-Pharaoh
Spells (28)
4 Fatal Push
3 Censor
3 Essence Scatter
3 Grasp of Darkness
1 Negate
3 Disallow
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Murder
4 Supreme Will
3 Glimmer of Genius
1 Confirm Suspicions
1 Never // Return
4 Aether Hub
4 Choked Estuary
2 Crypt of the Eternals
1 Desert of the Glorified
4 Fetid Pools
4 Island
3 Sunken Hollow
4 Swamp
1 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Doomfall
1 Essence Extraction
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Kefnet the Mindful
2 Hour of Glory
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Overwhelming Denial
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
It was. Sorry, using quotes is a pain for me atm. Only have a phone. You also run wilds, don't you? I have 9 W sources, 6 cpt t1. I'll see how it goes in my rebuild. You still run 2 kalitas too, right?
Looks ok Jon, I dislike only 3 draw spells. I also dislike maxing out on counters, due to them not being great when you are being beaten down already. Maybe 1 downfall over a counter? I'm really interested in how the desert works out!
I swear I wrote Doomfall..yea..autoed..
I think the correct term I meant was card advantage. Will is selection and cycling is redraw. If you follow what I mean.
I hope you can prove my theoreying wrong haha.
Here's my updated build.
4 grasp of darkness
2 negate
1 blessed alliance
2 essence scatters
3 supreme will
2 liliana, the last hope
1 anguished unmaking
1 murder
3 disallow
4 glimmer of genius
1 pull from tomorrow
2 the Scarab God
1 sorin, grim nemesis
3 torrential gearhulk
2 plains
3 swamp
3 island
3 prairie stream
4 sunken hollow
4 choked estuary
2 fetid pools
3 shambling vent
2 aether hub
3 Authority of the consuls
1 blessed alliance
1 anguished unmaking
2 doomfall
1 flaying tendrils
1 kefnet the mindful
1 murder
2 kalitas, traitor of they
1 jace, unraveler of secrets
1 ob nixilis, reignited
1 fumigate
I am unsure on the mb alliance and pull. Pull because it's more draw power that illumination.
Sideboard:
Unsure if the mana can support the authority. Do I need more hub? Add wilds?
Unsure if fumigate and tendrils are the correct wipes. I'm kinda worried a little about go wide and hydra decks. Or just big creature midrange.
Would love to fit in a negate and summary dismissal/overwhelming denial but unsure where. Maybe doomfall? I do like the unconditional edict though.
Should the murder become never//return?
2 Choked Estuary
4 Fetid Pools
4 Sunken Hollow
9 Swamp
7 Island
Creatures
2 The Scarab God
3 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Disallow
2 Essence Scatter
4 Fatal Push
4 Glimmer of Genius
2 Flaying Tendrils
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Supreme Will
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
4 Censor
2 Negate
3 Contraband Kingpin
1 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Summary Dismissal
2 Thing in the Ice // Awoken Horror
1 Essence Extraction
1 Never // Return
1 Dispel
C Long Live Eldrazi C
You really need to get over yourself. I provided a long explanation for why I wasn't using it. You provided a pile of nothing in response.
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Spell (30)
3 Censor
4 Disallow
1 Essence Scatter
4 Fatal Push
2 Flaying Tendrils
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Hieroglyphic Illumination
1 Negate
2 Never // Return
3 Supreme Will
4 Aether Hub
4 Choked Estuary
4 Fetid Pools
4 Island
4 Sunken Hollow
6 Swamp
1 Consign // Oblivion
1 Dispel
2 Flaying Tendrils
4 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Negate
1 Summary Dismissal
2 The Scarab God
EDIT: This deck was also deck-of-the-day on the MTG Daily update for 23 Aug.
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 The Scarab God
3 Torrential Gearhulk
Spell (27)
3 Censor
1 Commit // Memory
2 Disallow
1 Essence Extraction
3 Essence Scatter
3 Fatal Push
1 Flaying Tendrils
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Negate
3 Supreme Will
2 Aether Hub
1 Blighted Fen
4 Choked Estuary
4 Fetid Pools
5 Island
4 Sunken Hollow
6 Swamp
2 Dispel
2 Essence Extraction
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Hour of Glory
1 Kefnet the Mindful
2 Never // Return
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
2 Summary Dismissal
3 Transgress the Mind
Is it solely due to Ramunap Red? If that doesn't exist at the local meta, is it correct to keep Pull From Tomorrow in?
1 Kefnet the Mindful
1 Kalitas, Traitor to Ghet
2 Yahenni's Expertise
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Essence Extraction
2 To the Slaughter
2 Negate
1 Essence Scatter
1 Dispel
I changed it up slightly from last time. I dropped 1 Blessed Alliance for another To the Slaughter. I also dropped Flaying Tendrils for Essence Extraction. Kefnet is questionable right now. I didn't really know what else to put there. Contraband Kingpin does a ton of work against Ramunap Red.
I'm also considering Hour of Glory for my sideboard as well.
Pretty much. I've also seen some aggro-ish variation of Zombies that are a bit more "rawr-smash" too. I just can't afford to be on the draw and have to mulligan an otherwise decent hand because I have 2 Pull from Tomorrow in my hand or other questionable cards. Even when you're not facing off against an aggro deck, how often do you want to see more than 1 Pull in your opening hand?
So, basically, if you're running just 4 Gearhulks as wincons (as he had in his UR list), plus a lot of low cost spells, you're going to exhaust your hand pretty quick, and need substantial refill. PfT good. If you're running higher cost cards, and more importantly better mana sinks (i.e. Scarab God, Kalitas), then PfT isn't what you want as you can get better value elsewhere. Plus, remember it's a terrible Gearhulk target!