I played my exact list two posts up to a 3-1 finish tonight at a weekly league. I lost to RW Vehicles narrowly -- felt like I could have won, but my draws didn't cooperate, as I drew all three six drops on a mull to five =( I beat a GW Tokens + Angels deck, an Abzan deck that was very similar to mine, and RB Aggro. Some thoughts:
- It sounds weird, but I might have too many ways to kill the Chopper. RW is a more diverse deck than something like RB and probably requires a little more finesse in card choices.
- Several people brought Aetherworks Marvel decks tonight and I couldn't beat any of them. I got lucky to dodge the deck the whole night, but I don't want to have to rely on ducking it forever. I'm thinking about incorporating a card like Hanweir Garrison in the sideboard for matchups where I need to close things out fast. Goblin Rabblemaster saw play in sideboards of midrange decks like this for similar reasons in the past, and I think Garrison is comparable, if less efficient. I also think Hanweir Garrison is probably good against decks like GW Tokens, which try to leverage Gideon and a pile of 0/1 Plants to protect him. It's a bit precarious because a Gideon emblem changes the math pretty sharply against you, Ishkanah trumps Hanweir Garrison (and would be a reasonable inclusion if the GW deck had a Delirium wrinkle), and the deck also plays stuff like Gisela and Avacyn that dgaf about Hanweir Garrison either... but you have removal to pace things against the Angels and slightly bigger tokens, and you can also just choose not to board Garrison in. Nissa and Chandra are pretty good against opposing planeswalkers anyway. Worth trying out though.
- Nissa's emblem is quite a bit better than I expected it to be. The wrinkle that I missed is that Nissa is actually pretty mediocre against aggro decks. She's a quick clock if you can afford to attack with the +1, but you frequently can't, and her +1 doesn't do anything if your opponent picks their spots with stuff like Fleetwheel Cruiser. They just never have to attack her down, which puts her in the spot where she'll be able to ult and she won't do anything otherwise. Her emblem, otoh, is actually pretty good against these decks, because it basically makes sure you won't get cheesed out of the game by drawing into a couple of extra lands when you needed to hit one last removal spell or whatever. I used her to this exact effect very well (although it helped that the first two lands I found after getting the emblem were Evolving Wilds -- why yes I'll take my Ancestral Recall...) and I think it's probably the best use, outside of something like rebuying a Goblin Dark-Dwellers with the -3. And obviously the emblem just wins a long game.
- Noxious Gearhulk is less good against aggro than I expected. It's basically like Goblin Dark-Dwellers, but you pay 1 more mana for 1 more power and 1-2 life, and the extra mana is by far the most impactful aspect of that exchange. I don't think I really want it in because Chandra already puts a strain on the 6-spot against aggro and is just so much better.
- Seasons Past was about what I expected it to be: auto-win against other PW-attrition style decks like this and a liability against fast decks and decks that go over me. I don't think the second is ever necessary though; I played two because the old Seasons Past decks did, but those decks were built around the Dark Petition - Seasons Past interaction and couldn't afford to have their Seasons Past hit by Transgress the Mind. I almost don't mind if my opponent takes Seasons Past with Transgress, since the answers for my permanents are so stretched thin as it is, and taking a Seasons Past too early means that they're just as likely to die to an unanswered Ob Nixilis or Chandra or whatever.
I think the updated list I'm going to play at tomorrow night's weekly tourney is this:
Played the list above to a 3-1 record tonight. This time I beat RW Vehicles, GW Humans, and an Abzan deck built around Eldritch Evolution. I lost to a Grixis Gearhulk/Colossus deck.
Thoughts:
Hanweir Garrison is the perfect card for the role I was trying to cast. Garrison spirals out of control very quickly if it's left unchecked, but that leaves you with two hurdles to get through: Make sure your opponent doesn't remove it and make sure your opponent doesn't have blockers. The good news is that, in the matchups where you want Garrison (against combo decks where you need to just kill them ASAP), their removal spells are minimal if nonexistent, and your threat suite in game 1 isn't very conducive to them playing removal spells in the first place; they don't want to draw Harnessed Lightning to kill your Dark-Dwellers after it flashed back Transgress the Mind and took their combo piece, they want to draw a way to kill you before that Dark-Dwellers ever matters. Your opponents will not expect this card out of the sideboard. And the deck already plays plenty of spot removal, which makes clearing blockers not difficult.
Radiant Flames is probably getting cut. The final straw came for me tonight when I had a Radiant Flames in hand against GW Humans and they played out plenty of dudes into it, but it was never right to cast it, because I had the board contained with spot removal already and "didn't want to use [Flames] prematurely." It turns out that I just don't even need it if I'm playing stuff like Galvanic Bombardment and Weaver of Lightning, because I'm not falling behind badly enough to demand a sweeper. It's also notable that the 'good' aggro decks -- mainly RW here, but this GW list also seems like it could be legit -- aren't weak to sweepers like Radiant Flames. These aren't the swarm aggro decks of last season like Wx Humans was. Radiant Flames is still good at times, but these decks can be managed well enough by cheap red removal and stabilizing guys like Dark-Dwellers.
Nissa, Vital Force has been somewhat underwhelming. Probably just the metagame isn't very good for her right now. The 5-spot is so loaded with options and she just isn't doing it for me in the maindeck. I think she definitely belongs in the 75, but she can easily be sideboarded. Likewise, Noxious Gearhulk is another card that's played fine but hasn't been what I've wanted. It should probably just be another Chandra, Flamecaller. Seasons Past can almost certainly go as well, maybe in the board but probably just get cut.
Deck really wants a Flametongue Kavu or Siege Rhino. Some 4-mana blocker that stabilizes in some way on ETB (whether killing a dude or gaining life).
You have come to many same conclusions as I have somewhere down the line; it's good to know it's not just my internal bias or anything like that.
I have also thought about going up to 3 Kalitas in the main and moving (at least one) Nissas to the board as a response to this metagame. It's funny how the big Chandra has been all but forgotten when she has felt really, really good in my test games. the last few slots are a pain to fill, really. I could see myself playing, Grasps, discard, Nissas or ramp. I've also toyed around with the idea of running 1-2 Fall of the titans.
sweepers really are misunderstood, and overrated in comparison to cheap spot removal. you really want to get ahead on the board if you can (and these decks can), just resetting it won't be enough.
So first thing with this list is the lands. I want to add 2-3 Cinder Glade and 2 more Hissing Quagmire. Should I go up to 4x Aether Hubs? I've been thinking about it with the energy producers in the deck it has been an all-star land.
As far as creatures go, I want more Gearhulks. Maybe a 3/2 split between the red and green ones. I like Combustible Gearhulk with wildest dreams in the deck to get back any win conditions in the yard. I was also thinking 4x Sylvan Advocate but I can't decide if that's a good idea or not. Gonti, Lord of Luxury has been pretty decent to me, but haven't played it against aggro yet so not sure quite how great it actually is. I want to take out the Dragonmaster Outcast for something listed above.
With the spells in the deck, I definitely need 2 more Harnessed Lightning first and foremost. I'm going to move the Radiant Flames to the sideboard as soon as I find a replacement. Other than that, I'm not sure how the best removal package actually looks. I want this to be a control deck more than a midrange one and I feel Jund has what's needed to do that. Any suggestions?
I want this to be a control deck more than a midrange one and I feel Jund has what's needed to do that. Any suggestions?
a late reply, but this feels like a mistake to me. Jund can't compete with the other big decks of the format - Aetherworks Marvel and whatever deck that plays Emrakul. if you don't play Tracker or Advocate or Nissa, then you should cut green. your list has only 6 green cards, so you're not really getting anything out of it. this deck would be much, much better if it was Grixis instead.
you want to use your colours' strengths instead of forcefully limiting yourself. green gives you aggression, so you should use it.
I really can't say anything unless I see the current decklist too. 4 aetherhubs with no energy producing cards is a hazard. looking at your old decklist it looks pretty grim though. you have a lot of double casters in both black and red. I'm not sure if there is a way to make it work without adding more Traverses for example.
I'm considering playing 1 Key over 3rd Truths in the SB, we'll have to see
Well, not much to report. We had 11 players, I made the top 4, but lost the semis to a friend. we had few GP decks and some odd decks too. I ended up playing the Key to the City, Sided it against BG delirium and GW stuff, and it was great! The card won me my match against BG and almost against GW.
I am happy with cutting down on Advocate. I could even see going down to 1 or 0 if I found the right cards to bring to the maindeck. removal is quite good right now, and Marvel and Control decks are on the downswing. Lightning Axe was good. Could even see myself playing 2, although that probably is too many.
I lost my matches against GW and BG aggro both due to Verdurous Gearhulk giving counters to Avacyn and Smuggler's Copter. Very strong sequences.
I played with the above list on Tuesday and Friday with -1 Truths -1 Cinder Glade +1 Key +1 Vessel of Nascency. went 4-0 and 3-1.
I feel quite good playing against control, BG delirium and all the aggro decks. BG aggro and UW flash are tougher. I have lost twice against UW now, but I I have a remedy: Dragonmaster Outcast. the UW deck has no good (tempo positive) answers to the outcast outside of flipping Avacyn. I'm looking to solve my SB plans for these MUs until the standard showdowns start. My list going forward:
13 players, went only 3-2 in the swiss. played against off-beat decks and one BG delirium, which I won. deck felt good but I lost the die against the 2 aggro decks, mulled to 6 in g3's, had below average hands and got curved out. I tried Vessels because they give me access to more removal when I need it with GDD, and provides easy delirium. OK card, but I still don't wanna mess around doing nothing I think. my list going forward:
I'm going to stop messing around and just play the cards I trust to be good. Manabase has become better: the chance of getting colour screwed is much smaller problem than getting out tempo'd, so I have added even MORE basics and the two Hubs. I still want more removal so I added Chandra. It's going to be a 4-mana flame slash some % of the time but that's ok.
deck feels good, I'm ready for the PPTQ next weekend.
Thoughts:
Hanweir Garrison is the perfect card for the role I was trying to cast. Garrison spirals out of control very quickly if it's left unchecked, but that leaves you with two hurdles to get through: Make sure your opponent doesn't remove it and make sure your opponent doesn't have blockers. The good news is that, in the matchups where you want Garrison (against combo decks where you need to just kill them ASAP), their removal spells are minimal if nonexistent, and your threat suite in game 1 isn't very conducive to them playing removal spells in the first place; they don't want to draw Harnessed Lightning to kill your Dark-Dwellers after it flashed back Transgress the Mind and took their combo piece, they want to draw a way to kill you before that Dark-Dwellers ever matters. Your opponents will not expect this card out of the sideboard. And the deck already plays plenty of spot removal, which makes clearing blockers not difficult.
Radiant Flames is probably getting cut. The final straw came for me tonight when I had a Radiant Flames in hand against GW Humans and they played out plenty of dudes into it, but it was never right to cast it, because I had the board contained with spot removal already and "didn't want to use [Flames] prematurely." It turns out that I just don't even need it if I'm playing stuff like Galvanic Bombardment and Weaver of Lightning, because I'm not falling behind badly enough to demand a sweeper. It's also notable that the 'good' aggro decks -- mainly RW here, but this GW list also seems like it could be legit -- aren't weak to sweepers like Radiant Flames. These aren't the swarm aggro decks of last season like Wx Humans was. Radiant Flames is still good at times, but these decks can be managed well enough by cheap red removal and stabilizing guys like Dark-Dwellers.
Nissa, Vital Force has been somewhat underwhelming. Probably just the metagame isn't very good for her right now. The 5-spot is so loaded with options and she just isn't doing it for me in the maindeck. I think she definitely belongs in the 75, but she can easily be sideboarded. Likewise, Noxious Gearhulk is another card that's played fine but hasn't been what I've wanted. It should probably just be another Chandra, Flamecaller. Seasons Past can almost certainly go as well, maybe in the board but probably just get cut.
Deck really wants a Flametongue Kavu or Siege Rhino. Some 4-mana blocker that stabilizes in some way on ETB (whether killing a dude or gaining life).
GW ~ Angels ~ WG
Modern:
RBW ~ Shadowmancer ~ WBR
Legacy:
BUG ~ Shadow Delver ~ GUB
I have also thought about going up to 3 Kalitas in the main and moving (at least one) Nissas to the board as a response to this metagame. It's funny how the big Chandra has been all but forgotten when she has felt really, really good in my test games. the last few slots are a pain to fill, really. I could see myself playing, Grasps, discard, Nissas or ramp. I've also toyed around with the idea of running 1-2 Fall of the titans.
sweepers really are misunderstood, and overrated in comparison to cheap spot removal. you really want to get ahead on the board if you can (and these decks can), just resetting it won't be enough.
Youtube Channel
2x Hissing Quagmire
2x Aether Hub
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Game Trail
2x Foreboding Ruins
1x Smoldering Marsh
4x Mountain
4x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Dragonmaster Outcast
4x Servant of the Conduit
2x Pia Nalaar
2x Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1x Noxious Gearhulk
1x Combustible Gearhulk
1x Traverse the Ulvenwald
1x Dead weight
2x Trasngress the Mind
2x Harnessed Lightning
3x Die Young
3x Radiant Flames
2x Live Fast
1x Unlicensed Disintegration
1x Painful Truths
1x Essence Extraction
1x Wildest Dreams
1x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
So first thing with this list is the lands. I want to add 2-3 Cinder Glade and 2 more Hissing Quagmire. Should I go up to 4x Aether Hubs? I've been thinking about it with the energy producers in the deck it has been an all-star land.
As far as creatures go, I want more Gearhulks. Maybe a 3/2 split between the red and green ones. I like Combustible Gearhulk with wildest dreams in the deck to get back any win conditions in the yard. I was also thinking 4x Sylvan Advocate but I can't decide if that's a good idea or not. Gonti, Lord of Luxury has been pretty decent to me, but haven't played it against aggro yet so not sure quite how great it actually is. I want to take out the Dragonmaster Outcast for something listed above.
With the spells in the deck, I definitely need 2 more Harnessed Lightning first and foremost. I'm going to move the Radiant Flames to the sideboard as soon as I find a replacement. Other than that, I'm not sure how the best removal package actually looks. I want this to be a control deck more than a midrange one and I feel Jund has what's needed to do that. Any suggestions?
a late reply, but this feels like a mistake to me. Jund can't compete with the other big decks of the format - Aetherworks Marvel and whatever deck that plays Emrakul. if you don't play Tracker or Advocate or Nissa, then you should cut green. your list has only 6 green cards, so you're not really getting anything out of it. this deck would be much, much better if it was Grixis instead.
you want to use your colours' strengths instead of forcefully limiting yourself. green gives you aggression, so you should use it.
Youtube Channel
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2 Sylvan Advocate
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Planeswalkers:
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
Other spells:
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
1 Lightning Axe
1 Live Fast
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Transgress the Mind
3 Hissing Quagmire
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Game Trail
3 Blooming Marsh
3 Mountain
4 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Smoldering Marsh
1 Cinder Glade
3 Painful Truths
2 Tears of Valakut
1 Transgress the Mind
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Essence Extraction
3 Weaver of Lightning
3 Galvanic Bombardment
I'm considering playing 1 Key over 3rd Truths in the SB, we'll have to see
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Well, not much to report. We had 11 players, I made the top 4, but lost the semis to a friend. we had few GP decks and some odd decks too. I ended up playing the Key to the City, Sided it against BG delirium and GW stuff, and it was great! The card won me my match against BG and almost against GW.
I am happy with cutting down on Advocate. I could even see going down to 1 or 0 if I found the right cards to bring to the maindeck. removal is quite good right now, and Marvel and Control decks are on the downswing. Lightning Axe was good. Could even see myself playing 2, although that probably is too many.
I lost my matches against GW and BG aggro both due to Verdurous Gearhulk giving counters to Avacyn and Smuggler's Copter. Very strong sequences.
Youtube Channel
I feel quite good playing against control, BG delirium and all the aggro decks. BG aggro and UW flash are tougher. I have lost twice against UW now, but I I have a remedy: Dragonmaster Outcast. the UW deck has no good (tempo positive) answers to the outcast outside of flipping Avacyn. I'm looking to solve my SB plans for these MUs until the standard showdowns start. My list going forward:
2 Sylvan Advocate
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Tireless Tracker
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Planeswalkers:
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
Other spells:
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
1 Lightning Axe
1 Live Fast
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Key to the City
1 Vessel of Nascency
3 Hissing Quagmire
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Game Trail
3 Blooming Marsh
3 Mountain
4 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Smoldering Marsh
2 Painful Truths
1 Tears of Valakut
1 Transgress the Mind
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Essence Extraction
3 Weaver of Lightning
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Galvanic Bombardment
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2 Sylvan Advocate
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Planeswalkers:
2 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
Other spells:
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Transgress the Mind
2 Vessel of Nascency
3 Hissing Quagmire
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Game Trail
3 Blooming Marsh
3 Mountain
5 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Painful Truths
1 Tears of Valakut
2 Essence Extraction
3 Weaver of Lightning
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Galvanic Bombardment
1 Key to the City
13 players, went only 3-2 in the swiss. played against off-beat decks and one BG delirium, which I won. deck felt good but I lost the die against the 2 aggro decks, mulled to 6 in g3's, had below average hands and got curved out. I tried Vessels because they give me access to more removal when I need it with GDD, and provides easy delirium. OK card, but I still don't wanna mess around doing nothing I think. my list going forward:
2 Sylvan Advocate
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
Planeswalkers:
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
Other spells:
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Transgress the Mind
2 Hissing Quagmire
2 Aether Hub
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Game Trail
3 Blooming Marsh
3 Mountain
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Smoldering Marsh
2 Painful Truths
1 Tears of Valakut
2 Essence Extraction
3 Weaver of Lightning
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Galvanic Bombardment
1 Key to the City
1 Nahiri's Wrath
I'm going to stop messing around and just play the cards I trust to be good. Manabase has become better: the chance of getting colour screwed is much smaller problem than getting out tempo'd, so I have added even MORE basics and the two Hubs. I still want more removal so I added Chandra. It's going to be a 4-mana flame slash some % of the time but that's ok.
deck feels good, I'm ready for the PPTQ next weekend.
Youtube Channel