I thought of another card from hours that might be worth considering. Crook of Condemnation seems like it could be really useful, especially against zombies and delerium. what do you think?
I thought of another card from hours that might be worth considering. Crook of Condemnation seems like it could be really useful, especially against zombies and delerium. what do you think?
What does the card even do against zombies? It's not like we are killing their creatures to begin with. Even in general the card does next to nothing to justify it's place in the deck or the needed mana to use the thing.
I tried out a friendly league last night running 2x Unsummon and the card has felt really strong so far. Traveller's Amulet I'm not so sure about. Obviously the sample size is too small to say for sure, but it felt like I was having to mulligan more often just to get a playable amount of land. Having to settle for an opening hand of 2x statuary and 3x island after 2 mulligans does not feel great.
I also had a question. I ran into a New Perspectives deck last night and went 1-2. The only reason I won the match I did was because one of his cycle draws fizzled and bought me a turn. I'm really not sure how to sideboard against this deck. Obviously, metallic rebuke should come in, but just 2-3 counter spells doesn't seem like enough to make sure I have an answer before new perspectives drops. Is there a strategy to deal with new perspectives, or is just a bad matchup?
I would think the best way to deal with New Perspectives is to board in Negates and Metallic Rebukes and use them just to counter the enchantment if you can. If they can't land the enchantment they can't win the game.
As for Traveler's Amulet, yeah I have been quite disappointed with it as well. I find myself boarding it out every single game I have played, which definitely says a lot.
I'm going to try adding in Leave // Chance and see how that works since having 8 Paradoxical Outcome style effects will make the deck a lot more consistent
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Leave just looks way worse than Expertise to me. Expertise does more things and better. I like the looting side of the card, though, but I really think Expertise and Commit // Memory cover all of your bases to not justify the double splash. Just my 2c.
I have played with Unsummon a lot but I have gone back to three MD Commits - the card feels better even against the more aggressive decks. I like Unsummon as a SB option, though.
Leave just looks way worse than Expertise to me. Expertise does more things and better. I like the looting side of the card, though, but I really think Expertise and Commit // Memory cover all of your bases to not justify the double splash. Just my 2c.
I have played with Unsummon a lot but I have gone back to three MD Commits - the card feels better even against the more aggressive decks. I like Unsummon as a SB option, though.
How is Baral's Expertise way better than Leave // Chance? Honestly I don't think they are comparable really as both do different things for the deck. Expertise can bounce some cards yes, but the number of artifacts you bounce with it is pitiful, and every time I use it to bounce my artifacts, I wish it had just been another copy of Paradoxical Outcome. The best thing about Expertise is that it can bounce some problematic creatures our opponents have (like Manglehorn for example) and it can let us essentially improvise out our AEtherflux Reservoir because of the backend free cast we get.
Baral's doesn't draw us any cards, only lets us at BEST get maybe 5 more spells off of a Reservoir turn, which against some decks that isn't even close to enough.
I need to pick up Spirebluff Canals for another deck I want to play anyway, so I'm going to throw together a Jeskai AEtherworks deck and test it out when I get some time. I'll let you all know how it goes.
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Leave doesn't draw you any cards either. It's basically only good for comboing and going for fast kills, and I think Expertise does a better job at even that.
EDIT: of course I'm only comparing the front side of the card with Expertise here. I think the real reason to play the card is the aftermath half. Still, splashing two colours just for one card sounds pretty bad.
Leave doesn't draw you any cards either. It's basically only good for comboing and going for fast kills, and I think Expertise does a better job at even that.
EDIT: of course I'm only comparing the front side of the card with Expertise here. I think the real reason to play the card is the aftermath half. Still, splashing two colours just for one card sounds pretty bad.
Yeah when I'm talking about the card, I am talking about it as a whole. Both Leave and Chance parts since they are on the same card. It's not like you need to draw Leave, and then draw Chance That's probably where our disagreement is stemming from.
As for splashing extra colours to run Leave // Chance....honestly I consider it a very free splash. In addition to Spirebluff Canal, Prairie Stream and Port Town all being cards you can also use for blue mana, the deck just so happens to run 4 Prophetic Prism which is literally just free splash. I will definitely concede that using Prism for mana filtering does make it so you can cast less spells, but when the result is you getting to draw more cards, and thus draw more 0 mana artifacts, I think that is a point which doesn't matter much
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Leave doesn't draw you any cards either. It's basically only good for comboing and going for fast kills, and I think Expertise does a better job at even that.
EDIT: of course I'm only comparing the front side of the card with Expertise here. I think the real reason to play the card is the aftermath half. Still, splashing two colours just for one card sounds pretty bad.
Yeah when I'm talking about the card, I am talking about it as a whole. Both Leave and Chance parts since they are on the same card. It's not like you need to draw Leave, and then draw Chance That's probably where our disagreement is stemming from.
As for splashing extra colours to run Leave // Chance....honestly I consider it a very free splash. In addition to Spirebluff Canal, Prairie Stream and Port Town all being cards you can also use for blue mana, the deck just so happens to run 4 Prophetic Prism which is literally just free splash. I will definitely concede that using Prism for mana filtering does make it so you can cast less spells, but when the result is you getting to draw more cards, and thus draw more 0 mana artifacts, I think that is a point which doesn't matter much
I'm not worried about not getting the right colour of mana really, I'm worried about how clunky the deck becomes. Having your lands come into play tapped is just crippling for this deck since we need a lot of mana to develop our board and we don't have great ways to come back from a bad spot. It's just repeated board wipes or bust. If the card was blue-blue, I could see trying it out, but even still the card doesn't really bring anything new to the table. We have access to ways to bounce our own stuff (Expertise), and we have access to a powerful refill option (Memory). So I don't think that even the whole package is that enticing. Just placing my bets here.
I think that in order to run multiple colours, the deck needs to go away from Engulf the Shore as the only board clear. Honestly Hour of Devastation helps with clearing the board if you move the deck towards red, and has the added bonus of also dealing with Planeswalkers, which I have noticed are a bit of an issue for this deck unless you suit up an Ornithopter with 4 Bone Saws.
In the end I'll let you know how my testing goes. Just don't say I told you so if it doesn't work out
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Rather than splashing 2 colors, ive had moderate success squeezing 2x leave // chance with some number of prairie stream while relying on prophetic prism for the red/white fixing. This allows ornithopter and engulf the shore to remain in the main deck (I prefer this version over no engulfs main).
I havent had mana issues yet but it needs a lot more testing. Ive been impressed with leave // chance and would like to hear if anybody else has actually tested it. It might be better to stay mono-blue if you prefer no engulfs main, replacing ornithopter with cathar's shield .
I think that in order to run multiple colours, the deck needs to go away from Engulf the Shore as the only board clear. Honestly Hour of Devastation helps with clearing the board if you move the deck towards red, and has the added bonus of also dealing with Planeswalkers, which I have noticed are a bit of an issue for this deck unless you suit up an Ornithopter with 4 Bone Saws.
In the end I'll let you know how my testing goes. Just don't say I told you so if it doesn't work out
You can try to add answers for these threats that pressure us, but I think the right answer is to keep the strong synergies intact and work towards our own game plan which lets us ignore these threats. Commit is a great answer to walkers because it also lets us gas up. Engulf is kind of similar - it's mostly a board sweep, but it sometimes it gives us value back with Cranes and can also give us kills with Reservoir. Again, if Hour of Devastation was only blue, I would consider it, but the cost of splashing makes it an easy "no" in my books. Then again if you are going to experiment with the red splash, then might as well try it out.
From the testing so far, how does your build stack up against the most commonly played decks? I know of at least two matchups that are really bad (U/R control and R/G energy) but are there any where this deck gets a major advantage? Are there any match-ups that might be worth having specific sideboard tech for?
We prey on grindy midrange creature strategies. We struggle against all-in aggro. So for example against GB we have a terrible matchup against the max Snake-Cub-Rishkar build but we do great against the Flayer-Tracker-Gonti build. I've actually had a positive experience against RG aggro, but not against the Pummeler version. We pretty much wreck the mono-W monument deck unless something strange happens.
We have a middling to poor matchup IMO against the "aggro plus a couple counters" strategy and all-in control. WU monument is a lot more challenging than mono-W thanks to Spell Queller. I've pretty much only lost to Temur Energy when they had the timely negate. I've done ok against UR control but it is very dependent on their build and their draw.
Most of my sideboard is dedicated to the control matchup. The four engulfs in the side serve as my anti-aggro plan. I'd dedicate more space but I'm not sure what would even be good.
I've been mulling over what to do about Inspiring Statuary and I would like to get your thoughts. On the one hand, it is probably the most important card in the deck. Without it, most of the key spells become to expensive to really function properly in this deck. That said, it might as well be a legendary. Once you have one in play, any duplicates you draw are dead cards. The effect doesn't stack and we almost never have three mana just laying around to spend on another mana-rock. What I'm thinking about doing is cutting two copies of statuary and replacing them with tutor cards.
The two options I see currently are Trophy Mage and Whir of Invention. Trophy Mage Pros:
Easier to cast (UCC vs UUU)
6 Mana (for the mage and the statuary) is spread over two turns
Puts a body on the field that resists Fatal Push Cons:
Can only tutor for statuary
Sorcery Speed
Whir of Invention Pros:
Can tutor for any artifact in your deck
Instant speed Cons:
Expensive. Effectively a 6 mana spell if we want to tutor statuary
High value target for counter spells.
I've been mulling over what to do about Inspiring Statuary and I would like to get your thoughts. On the one hand, it is probably the most important card in the deck. Without it, most of the key spells become to expensive to really function properly in this deck. That said, it might as well be a legendary. Once you have one in play, any duplicates you draw are dead cards. The effect doesn't stack and we almost never have three mana just laying around to spend on another mana-rock. What I'm thinking about doing is cutting two copies of statuary and replacing them with tutor cards.
The two options I see currently are Trophy Mage and Whir of Invention. Trophy Mage Pros:
Easier to cast (UCC vs UUU)
6 Mana (for the mage and the statuary) is spread over two turns
Puts a body on the field that resists Fatal Push Cons:
Can only tutor for statuary
Sorcery Speed
Whir of Invention Pros:
Can tutor for any artifact in your deck
Instant speed Cons:
Expensive. Effectively a 6 mana spell if we want to tutor statuary
High value target for counter spells.
I don't see the value of these cards. >80% of the time you are using these cards to grab the statuary and in those cases they are massively worse cards than the actual statuary - you are losing on mana (especially on improvise mana) and lowering the artifact density of the deck. In the cases where you have a Statuary in play, what value are you exerting out of these cards anyway? Trophy still only tutors you an extra Statuary. The 2/2 body is almost completely worthless. Whir can get you a Prism, which has very little relevance, or Reservoir, which can be good in situations where your and the opponent's cards line up in a matter that you are able to gain additional life by tutoring the Reservoir as the first thing you do. However, tutoring Reservoir still doesn't "do" anything. Reservoir is still a dead card on its own. You need to have an Outcome, Memory or Expertise in your hand anyway.
EDIT: These cards have other merits, especially Whir, but I wouldn't use them to trim down on the actual Statuaries.
EDIT: For me it's pretty rare that the extra Statuaries are making me feel bad even when I draw into them. Especially in SB games my opponents always target them with discard, destroy them, or counter them. This deck is just so much worse without the Statuaries that I think it's correct to maximize our chances of having one in play, especially in the face of interaction. Decks like UW Monument also play four copies of the legendary artifact for similar reasons.
For some reason, I had it in my head that Trophy Mage was a 2/3. If it is only a 2/2 then scratch that idea. I'm still toying with the idea of swapping in one or two whir of invention. I'll have to do some playtesting online and see how things work out.
I really want to like this deck, but after two consecutive 1-4 finishes in friendly leagues I'm starting to agree with Peisitratos561. The deck is fun, but it just isn't viable in a competitive environment. There are just too many popular decks right now that completely hose it. The issue isn't so much an increase in artifact hate as it is the number of spells with strong ETB effects being run. Glorybringer, Avacyn, Spell Queller, Elder Deep Fiend, Energy Producers. On top of that, now we have to deal with eldrazi like Ulamog, World Breaker, and Thought Knot Seer in all the R/G ramp decks running around. The only thing I can think to try right now is replacing engulf the shore with an actual sweeper like Fumigate. If that doesn't work, I think I will be forced to retire the deck until a more favorable meta comes along.
Overall 2-2.
VS U/W Monument: 0-2
VS G/B Hapatra: 0-2
VS G/W Cat Tribal: 2-0
VS U/R Spells: 2-0
Overall, a really strange event. The two token based decks that should have been a cakewalk ended up being losses and the harder matchups were the ones I managed to win. Part of that was them having answers when they needed them. Every color except for blue runs efficient artifact removal and blue is usually paired with another color. Whir actually ended up being helpful in countering the hate since I could just tutor up a replacement for whichever piece they destroyed. That said, I was also lucky that no-one was running any of the nightmare decks or the results easily could have been 0-4. Even the U/R deck was a homebrew using the locust god and enigma drakes (actually a pretty cool idea).
tldr; As long as the local meta is not overrun with U/R control, Whir of Invention seems like a solid include. Being able to tutor up the exact artifact I need for the situation felt pretty good and the mana cost never really ended up being an issue. That said, I still feel like the deck remains tier 2 or 3 at best unless the meta takes a hard shift. Fun for casual events like this, but not something I would run when there are serious prizes on the line.
What does the card even do against zombies? It's not like we are killing their creatures to begin with. Even in general the card does next to nothing to justify it's place in the deck or the needed mana to use the thing.
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I also had a question. I ran into a New Perspectives deck last night and went 1-2. The only reason I won the match I did was because one of his cycle draws fizzled and bought me a turn. I'm really not sure how to sideboard against this deck. Obviously, metallic rebuke should come in, but just 2-3 counter spells doesn't seem like enough to make sure I have an answer before new perspectives drops. Is there a strategy to deal with new perspectives, or is just a bad matchup?
As for Traveler's Amulet, yeah I have been quite disappointed with it as well. I find myself boarding it out every single game I have played, which definitely says a lot.
I'm going to try adding in Leave // Chance and see how that works since having 8 Paradoxical Outcome style effects will make the deck a lot more consistent
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I have played with Unsummon a lot but I have gone back to three MD Commits - the card feels better even against the more aggressive decks. I like Unsummon as a SB option, though.
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How is Baral's Expertise way better than Leave // Chance? Honestly I don't think they are comparable really as both do different things for the deck. Expertise can bounce some cards yes, but the number of artifacts you bounce with it is pitiful, and every time I use it to bounce my artifacts, I wish it had just been another copy of Paradoxical Outcome. The best thing about Expertise is that it can bounce some problematic creatures our opponents have (like Manglehorn for example) and it can let us essentially improvise out our AEtherflux Reservoir because of the backend free cast we get.
Baral's doesn't draw us any cards, only lets us at BEST get maybe 5 more spells off of a Reservoir turn, which against some decks that isn't even close to enough.
I need to pick up Spirebluff Canals for another deck I want to play anyway, so I'm going to throw together a Jeskai AEtherworks deck and test it out when I get some time. I'll let you all know how it goes.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
EDIT: of course I'm only comparing the front side of the card with Expertise here. I think the real reason to play the card is the aftermath half. Still, splashing two colours just for one card sounds pretty bad.
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Yeah when I'm talking about the card, I am talking about it as a whole. Both Leave and Chance parts since they are on the same card. It's not like you need to draw Leave, and then draw Chance That's probably where our disagreement is stemming from.
As for splashing extra colours to run Leave // Chance....honestly I consider it a very free splash. In addition to Spirebluff Canal, Prairie Stream and Port Town all being cards you can also use for blue mana, the deck just so happens to run 4 Prophetic Prism which is literally just free splash. I will definitely concede that using Prism for mana filtering does make it so you can cast less spells, but when the result is you getting to draw more cards, and thus draw more 0 mana artifacts, I think that is a point which doesn't matter much
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I'm not worried about not getting the right colour of mana really, I'm worried about how clunky the deck becomes. Having your lands come into play tapped is just crippling for this deck since we need a lot of mana to develop our board and we don't have great ways to come back from a bad spot. It's just repeated board wipes or bust. If the card was blue-blue, I could see trying it out, but even still the card doesn't really bring anything new to the table. We have access to ways to bounce our own stuff (Expertise), and we have access to a powerful refill option (Memory). So I don't think that even the whole package is that enticing. Just placing my bets here.
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In the end I'll let you know how my testing goes. Just don't say I told you so if it doesn't work out
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I havent had mana issues yet but it needs a lot more testing. Ive been impressed with leave // chance and would like to hear if anybody else has actually tested it. It might be better to stay mono-blue if you prefer no engulfs main, replacing ornithopter with cathar's shield .
You can try to add answers for these threats that pressure us, but I think the right answer is to keep the strong synergies intact and work towards our own game plan which lets us ignore these threats. Commit is a great answer to walkers because it also lets us gas up. Engulf is kind of similar - it's mostly a board sweep, but it sometimes it gives us value back with Cranes and can also give us kills with Reservoir. Again, if Hour of Devastation was only blue, I would consider it, but the cost of splashing makes it an easy "no" in my books. Then again if you are going to experiment with the red splash, then might as well try it out.
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We have a middling to poor matchup IMO against the "aggro plus a couple counters" strategy and all-in control. WU monument is a lot more challenging than mono-W thanks to Spell Queller. I've pretty much only lost to Temur Energy when they had the timely negate. I've done ok against UR control but it is very dependent on their build and their draw.
Most of my sideboard is dedicated to the control matchup. The four engulfs in the side serve as my anti-aggro plan. I'd dedicate more space but I'm not sure what would even be good.
Any adjustments that can help ?
The two options I see currently are Trophy Mage and Whir of Invention.
Trophy Mage
Pros:
Easier to cast (UCC vs UUU)
6 Mana (for the mage and the statuary) is spread over two turns
Puts a body on the field that resists Fatal Push
Cons:
Can only tutor for statuary
Sorcery Speed
Whir of Invention
Pros:
Can tutor for any artifact in your deck
Instant speed
Cons:
Expensive. Effectively a 6 mana spell if we want to tutor statuary
High value target for counter spells.
I don't see the value of these cards. >80% of the time you are using these cards to grab the statuary and in those cases they are massively worse cards than the actual statuary - you are losing on mana (especially on improvise mana) and lowering the artifact density of the deck. In the cases where you have a Statuary in play, what value are you exerting out of these cards anyway? Trophy still only tutors you an extra Statuary. The 2/2 body is almost completely worthless. Whir can get you a Prism, which has very little relevance, or Reservoir, which can be good in situations where your and the opponent's cards line up in a matter that you are able to gain additional life by tutoring the Reservoir as the first thing you do. However, tutoring Reservoir still doesn't "do" anything. Reservoir is still a dead card on its own. You need to have an Outcome, Memory or Expertise in your hand anyway.
EDIT: These cards have other merits, especially Whir, but I wouldn't use them to trim down on the actual Statuaries.
EDIT: For me it's pretty rare that the extra Statuaries are making me feel bad even when I draw into them. Especially in SB games my opponents always target them with discard, destroy them, or counter them. This deck is just so much worse without the Statuaries that I think it's correct to maximize our chances of having one in play, especially in the face of interaction. Decks like UW Monument also play four copies of the legendary artifact for similar reasons.
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Overall 2-2.
VS U/W Monument: 0-2
VS G/B Hapatra: 0-2
VS G/W Cat Tribal: 2-0
VS U/R Spells: 2-0
Overall, a really strange event. The two token based decks that should have been a cakewalk ended up being losses and the harder matchups were the ones I managed to win. Part of that was them having answers when they needed them. Every color except for blue runs efficient artifact removal and blue is usually paired with another color. Whir actually ended up being helpful in countering the hate since I could just tutor up a replacement for whichever piece they destroyed. That said, I was also lucky that no-one was running any of the nightmare decks or the results easily could have been 0-4. Even the U/R deck was a homebrew using the locust god and enigma drakes (actually a pretty cool idea).
tldr; As long as the local meta is not overrun with U/R control, Whir of Invention seems like a solid include. Being able to tutor up the exact artifact I need for the situation felt pretty good and the mana cost never really ended up being an issue. That said, I still feel like the deck remains tier 2 or 3 at best unless the meta takes a hard shift. Fun for casual events like this, but not something I would run when there are serious prizes on the line.
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Thanks man.