Well, I explained my reasoning in my post. Ceremonious rejection seemed very prevalent, and is dispel against void shatter that has a lot of other applications
Also, how does void shatter exile zombie / graveyard decks when those decks don't even cast their spells, they use graveyard abilities. Scrapheap is the only creature that is typically hard casted and he comes in under shatter, and the amalgams, stitchwings, and haunted deads get chucked into the gy and are returned with abilities, which shatter can't counter
Well, I explained my reasoning in my post. Ceremonious rejection seemed very prevalent, and is dispel against void shatter that has a lot of other applications
Also, how does void shatter exile zombie / graveyard decks when those decks don't even cast their spells, they use graveyard abilities. Scrapheap is the only creature that is typically hard casted and he comes in under shatter, and the amalgams, stitchwings, and haunted deads get chucked into the gy and are returned with abilities, which shatter can't counter
My bad. I should've said delerium-based decks. I wasn't thinking about the dredge-type decks.
Ok, against a delirium based, emrakul deck a void shatter has potential to be more useful than scatter. These decks are pretty dedicated to milling themselves though, so even if you shatter a creature, or instant, or sorcery and keep it out of the gy, odds are they're gonna find a way to get that card type in there.
I think summary dismissal would be a better option. Or even better yet would be using black colors, to get transgress or lost legacy to hit the promised end. Also, are there still Emrakul decks? Because I haven't seen one since Kaladesh hit.
Obviously yes, exiling a spell is always a better alternative to just sending it to the gy, as there are a lot of different synergies across all the colors for the GY, and green has tons of spells and a new planeswalker that can get stuff out of the GY. However, The awaken on scatter actually has very real applications in a very low creature count control deck. Smashing in with an awakened fumarole is a definite possibility. Couple this with the fact that any deck using blue will be running rejection in the SB, and I think scatter looks to be the 3CMC counter spell of choice.
Obviously, having control discussion occur in one place can often make a lot of sense. You guys are trying to solve similar problems and answer similar threats. Collective thinking will often be better than spread out and fractured groups of users talking about Grixis, UB, Esper, Bant, UWR, etc.
However, this creates a problem for making Proven/Est. distinctions and pointing users in the correct direction.
Usually, new users (and, oftentimes, old users as well) are looking for specifics. If they have a Grixis control deck, they look for the thread that says Grixis Control and go to town. They're probably not looking for "control in kaladesh" which is the state of control primers we have right now.
If we could eventually start splintering out so that defined archetypes start existing in the forum, that would be awesome.
Anyway, I have a call for primer writers.
I currently have a guy writing UWR Control. But I do need a Grixis Control primer.
Ok, against a delirium based, emrakul deck a void shatter has potential to be more useful than scatter. These decks are pretty dedicated to milling themselves though, so even if you shatter a creature, or instant, or sorcery and keep it out of the gy, odds are they're gonna find a way to get that card type in there.
I think summary dismissal would be a better option. Or even better yet would be using black colors, to get transgress or lost legacy to hit the promised end. Also, are there still Emrakul decks? Because I haven't seen one since Kaladesh hit.
Obviously yes, exiling a spell is always a better alternative to just sending it to the gy, as there are a lot of different synergies across all the colors for the GY, and green has tons of spells and a new planeswalker that can get stuff out of the GY. However, The awaken on scatter actually has very real applications in a very low creature count control deck. Smashing in with an awakened fumarole is a definite possibility. Couple this with the fact that any deck using blue will be running rejection in the SB, and I think scatter looks to be the 3CMC counter spell of choice.
I am pretty much in the same boat as you. We run so few threats that the awaken aspect of scatter should not be ignored (although in the late game I would rather put the counters on a different land than fumerole as to not have all my eggs in one basket, but I digress). Rejection is going to see a lot of play for the foreseeable future (Already seeing main deck play). It isn't the best card against us but I could certainly see decks boarding out dead cards for a few copies against us.
I am mostly concerned with an early lili running wild on us. FI am thinking of including a few revolutionary rebuff main so I can counter her on the draw but it is such a bad top deck that I am not sure it is worth it. Maybe a negate or two in the main instead?
When I fist saw confirm suspicions I thought it was terrible but after some thought I want to try it out. Summary dismissal is already a must include in the 75 and this is only 1 more mana. A 5 mana instant speed draw three would almost certainly see play; if we expect the game to go long then this is very similar with a tacked on counter spell. Obviously drawing the cards spread out instead of immediately is not as good, but I don't think the 6 extra mana investment required to get the cards is that big a deal for us.
Hitting confirm suspicions with torrential is nice, 6 clues from 1 card! You'll be living off those clues the rest of the game. Clues also have great synergy with the flash style deck, so I like it.
In terms of liliana, I honestly don't see too many copies of her running around. I think Efro had a single copy in his sb at the PT in his GB delirium deck, and in a world of copters the card has lost a lot of value. What I would recommend actually is 3 copies of Gideon in the sb, as he is probably the best answer to lil, and is just generally an awesome card to side in against mid range / control decks. Also I would value negate over rebuff as it can hit copter, as well as a laundry list of other relevant threats, and would be a better value spell to hit with torrential
grixis cant play gideon. I beleive my go to will be SB to the slaughter, 3 mained negates and potentially 1-2 path in the 75.
My meta has a good players that love using her...
Btw ive been playing control for a couple formats ( I got second at a pptq wth u/r eldrazi control) I can say Confirm Suspicions is amazing I used to play 2 in that u/r deck and it breaks close games wideeeeeee open.
Control vs midrange is attrition and both players usually are down to 1-2 cards.
Control vs aggro is whether you can stabalize
control vs control is who can stick/ protect win cons + who can all in first
so generally its only bad in the aggro matchup assuming you cant stabalize
I am actually wondering whether radiant flames is even worth it in the main, I often wish they were more counter spells...
How do we feel about Tulio Jardy's Temur Control deck from the Pro Tour? I feel like this deck could be altered to become a real force against control decks, sweep aggro decks, and play a good attrition game with Pulse of Murasa in the sideboard. Seems like a good shell - just needs to be refined.
Also, how does void shatter exile zombie / graveyard decks when those decks don't even cast their spells, they use graveyard abilities. Scrapheap is the only creature that is typically hard casted and he comes in under shatter, and the amalgams, stitchwings, and haunted deads get chucked into the gy and are returned with abilities, which shatter can't counter
My bad. I should've said delerium-based decks. I wasn't thinking about the dredge-type decks.
I think summary dismissal would be a better option. Or even better yet would be using black colors, to get transgress or lost legacy to hit the promised end. Also, are there still Emrakul decks? Because I haven't seen one since Kaladesh hit.
Obviously yes, exiling a spell is always a better alternative to just sending it to the gy, as there are a lot of different synergies across all the colors for the GY, and green has tons of spells and a new planeswalker that can get stuff out of the GY. However, The awaken on scatter actually has very real applications in a very low creature count control deck. Smashing in with an awakened fumarole is a definite possibility. Couple this with the fact that any deck using blue will be running rejection in the SB, and I think scatter looks to be the 3CMC counter spell of choice.
Obviously, having control discussion occur in one place can often make a lot of sense. You guys are trying to solve similar problems and answer similar threats. Collective thinking will often be better than spread out and fractured groups of users talking about Grixis, UB, Esper, Bant, UWR, etc.
However, this creates a problem for making Proven/Est. distinctions and pointing users in the correct direction.
Usually, new users (and, oftentimes, old users as well) are looking for specifics. If they have a Grixis control deck, they look for the thread that says Grixis Control and go to town. They're probably not looking for "control in kaladesh" which is the state of control primers we have right now.
If we could eventually start splintering out so that defined archetypes start existing in the forum, that would be awesome.
Anyway, I have a call for primer writers.
I currently have a guy writing UWR Control. But I do need a Grixis Control primer.
Any takers?
PM me.
I am pretty much in the same boat as you. We run so few threats that the awaken aspect of scatter should not be ignored (although in the late game I would rather put the counters on a different land than fumerole as to not have all my eggs in one basket, but I digress). Rejection is going to see a lot of play for the foreseeable future (Already seeing main deck play). It isn't the best card against us but I could certainly see decks boarding out dead cards for a few copies against us.
I am mostly concerned with an early lili running wild on us. FI am thinking of including a few revolutionary rebuff main so I can counter her on the draw but it is such a bad top deck that I am not sure it is worth it. Maybe a negate or two in the main instead?
I think my counter suite (in jeskai) for this weekend is going to be
2 revolutionary rebuff or 2 negate or a split
3 scatter to the winds
1 confirm suspicions
When I fist saw confirm suspicions I thought it was terrible but after some thought I want to try it out. Summary dismissal is already a must include in the 75 and this is only 1 more mana. A 5 mana instant speed draw three would almost certainly see play; if we expect the game to go long then this is very similar with a tacked on counter spell. Obviously drawing the cards spread out instead of immediately is not as good, but I don't think the 6 extra mana investment required to get the cards is that big a deal for us.
In terms of liliana, I honestly don't see too many copies of her running around. I think Efro had a single copy in his sb at the PT in his GB delirium deck, and in a world of copters the card has lost a lot of value. What I would recommend actually is 3 copies of Gideon in the sb, as he is probably the best answer to lil, and is just generally an awesome card to side in against mid range / control decks. Also I would value negate over rebuff as it can hit copter, as well as a laundry list of other relevant threats, and would be a better value spell to hit with torrential
My meta has a good players that love using her...
Btw ive been playing control for a couple formats ( I got second at a pptq wth u/r eldrazi control) I can say Confirm Suspicions is amazing I used to play 2 in that u/r deck and it breaks close games wideeeeeee open.
Control vs midrange is attrition and both players usually are down to 1-2 cards.
Control vs aggro is whether you can stabalize
control vs control is who can stick/ protect win cons + who can all in first
so generally its only bad in the aggro matchup assuming you cant stabalize
I am actually wondering whether radiant flames is even worth it in the main, I often wish they were more counter spells...
4 Torrential Gearhulk
4 Weaver of Lightning
Spells
4 Galvanic Bombardment
4 Harnessed Lightning
3 Revolutionary Rebuff
4 Void Shatter
2 Brutal Expulsion
1 Confirm Suspicions
2 Negate
2 Anticipate
4 Glimmer of Genius
4 Spirebluff Canal
4 Wandering Fumarole
1 Botanical Sanctum
2 Cinder Glade
3 Mountain
8 Island
4 Aether Hub
1 Negate
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Confiscation Coup
2 Appetite for the Unnatural
2 Pulse of Murasa
2 Summary Dismissal
4 Hanweir Garrison
1 Dynavolt Tower