I'd try adding Noxious Gearhulk. I also saw a deck online running Engulf the Shore with Hulks to great effect, I was running Jeskai Control and they avoided every wrath by Engulfing their Gearhulks back to their hand, then doing it again by recasting a hulk. I might also consider splashing white for Reflector Mage, Anguished Unmaking, and Sorin.
I'd try adding Noxious Gearhulk. I also saw a deck online running Engulf the Shore with Hulks to great effect, I was running Jeskai Control and they avoided every wrath by Engulfing their Gearhulks back to their hand, then doing it again by recasting a hulk. I might also consider splashing white for Reflector Mage, Anguished Unmaking, and Sorin.
I agree with you with the 4-1 Ruinous Path and To the Slaughter split. I think sorcery speed spells aren't that bad as when Collected Company dominated standard and also i don't expect as much Spell Queller as in last standard, but we have to be careful with hexproof shenanigans (Birstling Hydra and Blossoming Defense) that the new standard will have, where To the Slaughter might actually be needed in more numbers. I do not agree with the 2-3 Liliana, the Last Hope and Ob Nixilis Reignited split, we could cut one lily or one ob though if we wanted to put another card in. I think 3-2 or 2-2 is the way to go.
I guess the 2 Negate in the maindeck where a mistake, because with them the total of spell cards is 26. I'm not sold by Engulf the Shore in this iteration because we don't have enough island type lands in the deck (11 in total), so we won't be able to return our Torrential Gearhulk that often, but it may be a decent card to have in the maindeck nonetheless. Noxious Gearhulk is in my radar but i don't know how to fit him in the deck without knowing how the metagame will be. When the metagame is established we will be able to cut the cards that don't fit that well in it and put the ones that do.
If we splash white we also get to play Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Dovin Baan, Fumigate, etc. Esper Control would be built in a more planeswalkery type of deck, instead my UB control take is more of a "draw and go" deck.
The Ruinous Path and Murder split could be 3-3 instead of 4-2 if the planeswalkers don't have as much impact as i expect them to have in the Kaladesh metagame, also if vehicles like Smuggler's Copter (wich seems that will be played a lot) become prevalent, Murder will be much more relevant. (Change made in the end)
- No Revolutionary Rebuff, probably because it's kinda underwhelming, he also "replaces" them with other counters. (I still need more testing with this card, probably it's prevalence will depend on how many artifact we will be facing like Smuggler's Copter and all Gearhulk's)
- 2 copies of Summary Dismissal as a counter all. (sometimes feels too expensive but it's very versatile)
- 3 copies of Anticipate to smooth the early game (find land drops/removal) and find key cards mid/late game. (probably necessary to smooth the deck, not really sure about 3 copies though, maybe 2 and put the 4th Transgress the Mind instead)
- 1 Confirm Suspicions instead of the 4th Glimmer of Genius. (I like this 3-1 split a lot actually)
- 3-3 Ruinous Path and Murder split. (i already talked about this in the last post)
- 1-1 Ob Nixilis Reignited and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets split. (I think Ob Nixilis Reignited is better most of the time)
- Scatter to the Winds instead of Void Shatter. (Scatter will be a cancel most of the time and the awakening will just give them targets for their removal, i think exiling is much more relevant)
I'd probably end up with something like this (if i use he's list as a model):
Glad I found this thread UB has been my go to color combo for years now. A lot of good things discussed here and I hope the discussion continues and we get a great deck out of it. For my part i would like to offer up a UB control deck with a small splash of W:
The small W splash in this deck is to facilitate the inclusion of Dovin Baan without overly complicating the mana base. I played a planeswalker heavy Esper list at FNM last week that did a very similiar thing with a small U splash to include Dovin. I also played Harsh Scrutiny over Transgress the Mind and only found myself wanting Transgress against an Abzan Walker deck and UR Visions, otherwise Scrutiny was invaluable as a turn 1 creature remover and the scry is a great addition. I moved Liliana to the SB in favor of Dovin as there are a lot of 3 drops in the deck already and a little room at the 4 drop spot. I also added in a single copy of the Sphinx of the Final Word for added pressure along with protecting your own instants and sorceries.
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Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
- After a decent amount of testing with Revolutionary Rebuff i can conclude it's just bad. Smuggler's Copter, Scrapheap Scrounger, and all gearhulk's make this card unplayable.
- Negate is the perfect counter spell replacement for Revolutionary Rebuff right now, especially against vehicles and planeswalker, that are the hardest cards for us to beat as a control deck, but we don't want more than 2 copies.
- Anticipate ocuppies the remaining 2 slots of Revolutionary Rebuff, it's just a necessary card to smooth the deck. The 3rd Anticipate steals the slot of the 4th Glimmer of Genius as we don't want as many similar effects in the deck (6 in total is fine).
- Transgress the Mind mainboard amount is reduced by one just because it's not as good as it was before, consequence of the faster pace of the actual meta. One copy of Summary Dismissal replaces it's place, as it's a very versatile card that it's [retty good to have as an option in the maindeck.
- Im not sure about the sideboard yet, but i think it's good enough against the aggro matchups and Metallurgic Summonings has been an all star against control-like matchups that can't get rid of it.
Posted this in the other UB Control thread (probably should get them merged at some point) but since they are separate i felt like I share my FNM results. I ended up 2-2-1 on the night, with my losses coming from mana issues. Going to be completely honest and say that I don't remember how the matches went but I beat UR Visions/Thero-Alchemist and mono-white fliers, tied 1-1 Grixis Emerge, lost to BR Control 1-2 with my one win coming on the back of Torrential Gearhulk getting me multiple draws with Fortune's Favor, and losses were due to mana issues, and lost to RG Energy Aggro where I flooded out and couldn't get to my answers
Overall, Torrential Gearhulk is an amazing card, the value it can generate is amazing. Fortune's Favor impressed me a lot, not only by occasionally tossing an instant into the yard but often being what I needed, even by taking the face down pile. If you aren't running a deck that needs energy, definitely consider it over Glimmer of Genius. Harsh Scrutiny was always a great card, allowing me to get good information to set up a Lost Legacy out of the board. The deck was really fun to play and I look forward to refining it down the road.
@Pench: Why run Glimmer of Genius over Fortune's Favor? You don't need the energy Glimmer gives, Favor fills the yard for Torrential Gearhulk while also often giving you what you need. Also, why the 2-2 split between Boneyard and Wilds? why not just run 4 Boneyards?
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Currently Playing:
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Posted this in the other UB Control thread (probably should get them merged at some point) but since they are separate i felt like I share my FNM results. I ended up 2-2-1 on the night, with my losses coming from mana issues. Going to be completely honest and say that I don't remember how the matches went but I beat UR Visions/Thero-Alchemist and mono-white fliers, tied 1-1 Grixis Emerge, lost to BR Control 1-2 with my one win coming on the back of Torrential Gearhulk getting me multiple draws with Fortune's Favor, and losses were due to mana issues, and lost to RG Energy Aggro where I flooded out and couldn't get to my answers
Overall, Torrential Gearhulk is an amazing card, the value it can generate is amazing. Fortune's Favor impressed me a lot, not only by occasionally tossing an instant into the yard but often being what I needed, even by taking the face down pile. If you aren't running a deck that needs energy, definitely consider it over Glimmer of Genius. Harsh Scrutiny was always a great card, allowing me to get good information to set up a Lost Legacy out of the board. The deck was really fun to play and I look forward to refining it down the road.
@Pench: Why run Glimmer of Genius over Fortune's Favor? You don't need the energy Glimmer gives, Favor fills the yard for Torrential Gearhulk while also often giving you what you need. Also, why the 2-2 split between Boneyard and Wilds? why not just run 4 Boneyards?
I haven't tried Fortune's Favor, it may be better than Glimmer of Genius, but i feel that letting our opponent choose for us is meh. I have to play it so i can have a better opinion on it.
The 2 Evolving Wilds purpose is to shuffle the deck because with Anticipate and Glimmer of Genius we may put "good" cards in the bottom of the deck as a consequence of the games circumstances we get into (like scrying a Torrential Gearhulk to the bottom because we are in a pinch and need removal for the early game). That's mostly it, it may be wrong but the mana base has worked fine in general.
Posted this in the other UB Control thread (probably should get them merged at some point) but since they are separate i felt like I share my FNM results. I ended up 2-2-1 on the night, with my losses coming from mana issues. Going to be completely honest and say that I don't remember how the matches went but I beat UR Visions/Thero-Alchemist and mono-white fliers, tied 1-1 Grixis Emerge, lost to BR Control 1-2 with my one win coming on the back of Torrential Gearhulk getting me multiple draws with Fortune's Favor, and losses were due to mana issues, and lost to RG Energy Aggro where I flooded out and couldn't get to my answers
Overall, Torrential Gearhulk is an amazing card, the value it can generate is amazing. Fortune's Favor impressed me a lot, not only by occasionally tossing an instant into the yard but often being what I needed, even by taking the face down pile. If you aren't running a deck that needs energy, definitely consider it over Glimmer of Genius. Harsh Scrutiny was always a great card, allowing me to get good information to set up a Lost Legacy out of the board. The deck was really fun to play and I look forward to refining it down the road.
@Pench: Why run Glimmer of Genius over Fortune's Favor? You don't need the energy Glimmer gives, Favor fills the yard for Torrential Gearhulk while also often giving you what you need. Also, why the 2-2 split between Boneyard and Wilds? why not just run 4 Boneyards?
I haven't tried Fortune's Favor, it may be better than Glimmer of Genius, but i feel that letting our opponent choose for us is meh. I have to play it so i can have a better opinion on it.
The 2 Evolving Wilds purpose is to shuffle the deck because with Anticipate and Glimmer of Genius we may put "good" cards in the bottom of the deck as a consequence of the games circumstances we get into (like scrying a Torrential Gearhulk to the bottom because we are in a pinch and need removal for the early game). That's mostly it, it may be wrong but the mana base has worked fine in general.
I see your point on the shuffle, that had not occurred to me. You choose the pile you put in your hand with Favor. If the face up pile has something you need, you take it, otherwise go with the face down (at least that's what I did and it worked out in my favor often)
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EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
- 3rd Liliana, the Last Hope in, 3rd Anticipate out. It's very good against aggro overall (it was a mistake to take out the 3rd in the first place).
- 3rd Flaying Tendrils in the sideboard using the spot that was left open. Very good against aggro, especially answering Scrapheap Scrounger.
I'm trying out Deadlock Trap and it has been a nice way of sinking the energy we incidentaly make. It could even go in together with Aether Meltdown if we need another more early removal. I still need more testing to see if it's good enough to get a spot in or at least in the sideboard. Deadlock Trap and Aether Meltdown also answers Scrapheap Scrounger wich in my opinion will be a big player in the metagame, so that may push it even further into the maindeck.
Probably just for more flexibility. Nixilis' plus has done work for me in many matchups when the minus was not really needed in past formats.
I'm worried about the overall survive ability of planeswalkers in this format though. So it might be worth testing.
Thats pretty much it, it's much more versatile than Noxious Gearhulk and 5 mana is a lot less than 6 mana. He's survability it's not that bad against aggro matchups if you are controlling them decently, but we board him out if he's bad (like vs W/R Vehicles). The life gain that Noxious Gearhulk offers is not necessary for game one most of the time, and if we need to gain life we have plenty of ways of doing it in our sideboard.
It seems, to me, that the vehicle based decks only care about Lili and Dovin as they can stop their smaller creatures from crewing due to the attack reduction on their upticks. Outside of those two decks most people seem to fear Kalitas imo over walkers, preferring to remove the vampire as opposed to the walkers
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Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Pench,
Any further testing. I'm planning on playin this deck on Friday. Looking forward to it.
I'm happy with the current list, but still not sure how to get in Deadlock Trap in the deck (not sure if we need it though).
I tried out a single deadlock trap and it helped me win over emrakul evem if my opponent was able to bounce emrakul back to his hand and cast it again. With glimmer of genius and aether hub, you are sure to have enough energy to stop certain creatures, like ishkana's damage ability.
I also tried the 3-1 torrential - noxious gearhulk split and I got to say I'm loving it so far.
Lastly, ehile harsh scrutiny hits creatures, I find myself still leaning towards collective brutality as it protects my threats on and off the board. Creatures really isn't that much of a problem since we run a lot of 1 for 1 removal
Pench,
Any further testing. I'm planning on playin this deck on Friday. Looking forward to it.
I'm happy with the current list, but still not sure how to get in Deadlock Trap in the deck (not sure if we need it though).
I tried out a single deadlock trap and it helped me win over emrakul evem if my opponent was able to bounce emrakul back to his hand and cast it again. With glimmer of genius and aether hub, you are sure to have enough energy to stop certain creatures, like ishkana's damage ability.
I also tried the 3-1 torrential - noxious gearhulk split and I got to say I'm loving it so far.
Lastly, ehile harsh scrutiny hits creatures, I find myself still leaning towards collective brutality as it protects my threats on and off the board. Creatures really isn't that much of a problem since we run a lot of 1 for 1 removal
I think Torrential Gearhulk is a must 4 of, is the best card in the deck by far and is the main win condition we have. Noxious Gearhulk is a good card but it's role is filled by Ob Nixilis in my opinion.
Pench,
Any further testing. I'm planning on playin this deck on Friday. Looking forward to it.
I'm happy with the current list, but still not sure how to get in Deadlock Trap in the deck (not sure if we need it though).
I tried out a single deadlock trap and it helped me win over emrakul evem if my opponent was able to bounce emrakul back to his hand and cast it again. With glimmer of genius and aether hub, you are sure to have enough energy to stop certain creatures, like ishkana's damage ability.
I also tried the 3-1 torrential - noxious gearhulk split and I got to say I'm loving it so far.
Lastly, ehile harsh scrutiny hits creatures, I find myself still leaning towards collective brutality as it protects my threats on and off the board. Creatures really isn't that much of a problem since we run a lot of 1 for 1 removal
I think Torrential Gearhulk is a must 4 of, is the best card in the deck by far and is the main win condition we have. Noxious Gearhulk is a good card but it's role is filled by Ob Nixilis in my opinion.
I agree that torrential is a clear win con and as much as I'd love to max it, the gain life and evasion noxious does is also something to consider especially if your local meta has plenty of aggro or midrange decks running around. I still keep a copy of ob nixilis main for additional removal. I'm also not to worried that I don't have enough torrential gearhulks since liliana can easily bring it back late in the game if it gets killed off
I've been posting over in the UB/Esper list that I started (didn't realise you had a thread too), so wanted to share my list and compare notes. I too followed the Soorani list as a base, so our lists are kind of similar. I'm not playing Lilianas as they are really difficult to get hold of at my local store, so instead I've got one Flaying Tendrils main, one Engulf the Shore (which is there not to bounce my own Gearhulks, but as a tempo play/pseudo sweeper against aggro decks) and one more Anticipate than you do. I think the early draw helps fix and react to anything early. I also split your two Negate to 1/1 of Negate and Ceremonious Rejection, but that could be a meta call between where you and I play, and I've stuck with Shaheen's suggestion of 1/1 Jace and ObNix. I'm toying with either a second Ob in the side, or at the moment, a Noxious Gearhulk for some life gain. I also run Scatter to the Winds instead of Void Shatter, as these give an extra win-con late in the game with Awaken, given that this list is so reactive and has few actual win-cons.
Anyway, I was curious about a couple of things - first, what type of decks have you been playing this against? I went 2-2 last time I played my list (should have been 3-1, but I got impatient and misplayed), only really struggling against a Grixis Zombie/Gearhulk list that used Zombies for early aggro, then Saheeli Rai and Chandra to search for, ramp to, then copy black and red Gearhulks. Also, what about a Sequestered Stash as a way to recur our Gearhulks if needed? Just a one-of, over the 8th Swamp, perhaps? Oh, and talking land, why no Aether Hub? Lastly, sideboard... How reliable has Dead Weight been for you. It seems an interesting choice. Metallurgic Summonings also seems a little odd. In this list, it only really spews out 2/2s and 3/3s, which don't seem to be worth it. Admittedly, the ability to return cards from the graveyard is tempting. Do you only ever bring it in for control matchups, or is there other times that you would bring it in?
I've been posting over in the UB/Esper list that I started (didn't realise you had a thread too), so wanted to share my list and compare notes. I too followed the Soorani list as a base, so our lists are kind of similar. I'm not playing Lilianas as they are really difficult to get hold of at my local store, so instead I've got one Flaying Tendrils main, one Engulf the Shore (which is there not to bounce my own Gearhulks, but as a tempo play/pseudo sweeper against aggro decks) and one more Anticipate than you do. I think the early draw helps fix and react to anything early. I also split your two Negate to 1/1 of Negate and Ceremonious Rejection, but that could be a meta call between where you and I play, and I've stuck with Shaheen's suggestion of 1/1 Jace and ObNix. I'm toying with either a second Ob in the side, or at the moment, a Noxious Gearhulk for some life gain. I also run Scatter to the Winds instead of Void Shatter, as these give an extra win-con late in the game with Awaken, given that this list is so reactive and has few actual win-cons.
Anyway, I was curious about a couple of things - first, what type of decks have you been playing this against? I went 2-2 last time I played my list (should have been 3-1, but I got impatient and misplayed), only really struggling against a Grixis Zombie/Gearhulk list that used Zombies for early aggro, then Saheeli Rai and Chandra to search for, ramp to, then copy black and red Gearhulks. Also, what about a Sequestered Stash as a way to recur our Gearhulks if needed? Just a one-of, over the 8th Swamp, perhaps? Oh, and talking land, why no Aether Hub? Lastly, sideboard... How reliable has Dead Weight been for you. It seems an interesting choice. Metallurgic Summonings also seems a little odd. In this list, it only really spews out 2/2s and 3/3s, which don't seem to be worth it. Admittedly, the ability to return cards from the graveyard is tempting. Do you only ever bring it in for control matchups, or is there other times that you would bring it in?
Some don't use aether hub is because some don't have the extra energy to re use it. As for dead weight I completely removed it since i'd rather play instant removal. metallurgic summoning is when you want to possibly out grind your opponent by using your instant spells to ambush their creatures. A bunch of 3/3 and 4/4 ain't so bad. Just to share this is the list I took to fnm today and finished 3-1 with only losing to U/W spirit copter (darn quellers hitting all my instant removal). Winning over g/b delirium, b/w control and a mono blue prison aetherflux reservoir homebrew.
The deck is pretty straight forward a draw-go control deck, gonti is great since he can often hit your opponents key cards especially if you recur him with liliana. The 3 toughness is a liability though since he easily eats a slew of removal, but as long as you exile a good card of him, that's value already. (Was able to win off him by exiling a sorin and an oath of liliana from an opponent which killed any chance of my opponent stabilizing again)
Noxious gearhulk is there as an answer to brisela or if you manage to draw/recurr it after an emrakul mindslaved turn, but in reality that's why you have summary dismissal. As i said in a previous post, the life gain and evasion are what makes it playable for me.
As for deadlock trap, it helps tap huge dudes, prevents ishkana activations, stops walkers from ticking up or going off and with glimmer of genius, aether hub and recurring glimmer of a torrential gearhulk, you'd have a lot of excess energy lying around for deadlock trap.
Sideboard is pretty self explanatory, but special mention to lost legacy game two gives you a good idea of what threats are in your opponents deck and removing them entirely helps you effectively incapacitate them, so for me this card is really good and with cards that let you peek at their hand, you can make sure they don't draw much from it.
I'v been considering the 3/1 Gearhulk split as well, so good to know that you like it. I may try it the next outing. I've also been back and forward with Trap, so I may slide that it over my third Anticipate. Gonti is also an interesting one. I have one right now, but I think I see it as an alternative win-con. Like most of the decks in this thread, I am wanting to stay very reactive, with the draw-go mentality. Maybe I'll try to get a second and put them in the side as alternatives.
Do you (or anyone else here) ever side out the Gearhulks for any matchups?
EDIT: No consideration of Mind's Dilation for control mirrors? If they try to cast anything to counter, draw or remove our stuff, then there's a chance that we could reveal a counter off their own library, or get draw spells, etc... Or better yet, reveal one of their walkers or Gearhulks.
1) 2-1 Against Grixis Burn
2) 2-0 Against B/R Control
3) 2-0 Against R/B Aggro
Overall the deck did pretty well, i never boarded out Torrential Gearhulk because the card IS the deck. I was not impressed that much with Dead Weight, might cut 1 and replace it with maybe Deadlock Trap.
I'v been considering the 3/1 Gearhulk split as well, so good to know that you like it. I may try it the next outing. I've also been back and forward with Trap, so I may slide that it over my third Anticipate. Gonti is also an interesting one. I have one right now, but I think I see it as an alternative win-con. Like most of the decks in this thread, I am wanting to stay very reactive, with the draw-go mentality. Maybe I'll try to get a second and put them in the side as alternatives.
Do you (or anyone else here) ever side out the Gearhulks for any matchups?
EDIT: No consideration of Mind's Dilation for control mirrors? If they try to cast anything to counter, draw or remove our stuff, then there's a chance that we could reveal a counter off their own library, or get draw spells, etc... Or better yet, reveal one of their walkers or Gearhulks.
I think Metalurgic Summonings is the better card in the context of an enchantment that generates value over time and it's difficult to answer. It's cheaper (5 is a lot less than 7) and you play around your cards, not your opponents.
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
2 Submerged Boneyard
8 Swamp
5 Island
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Blighted Fen
3 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Noxious Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (5)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Spells (24)
3 Transgress the Mind
4 Revolutionary Rebuff
4 Grasp of Darkness
1 To the Slaughter
4 Ruinous Path
2 Void Shatter
4 Glimmer of Genius
2 Engulf the Shore
2 Negate
I agree with you with the 4-1 Ruinous Path and To the Slaughter split. I think sorcery speed spells aren't that bad as when Collected Company dominated standard and also i don't expect as much Spell Queller as in last standard, but we have to be careful with hexproof shenanigans (Birstling Hydra and Blossoming Defense) that the new standard will have, where To the Slaughter might actually be needed in more numbers. I do not agree with the 2-3 Liliana, the Last Hope and Ob Nixilis Reignited split, we could cut one lily or one ob though if we wanted to put another card in. I think 3-2 or 2-2 is the way to go.
I guess the 2 Negate in the maindeck where a mistake, because with them the total of spell cards is 26. I'm not sold by Engulf the Shore in this iteration because we don't have enough island type lands in the deck (11 in total), so we won't be able to return our Torrential Gearhulk that often, but it may be a decent card to have in the maindeck nonetheless.
Noxious Gearhulk is in my radar but i don't know how to fit him in the deck without knowing how the metagame will be. When the metagame is established we will be able to cut the cards that don't fit that well in it and put the ones that do.
If we splash white we also get to play Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, Dovin Baan, Fumigate, etc. Esper Control would be built in a more planeswalkery type of deck, instead my UB control take is more of a "draw and go" deck.
- 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
- 2 To the Slaughter
+ 1 Ruinous Path
+ 2 Murder
The Ruinous Path and Murder split could be 3-3 instead of 4-2 if the planeswalkers don't have as much impact as i expect them to have in the Kaladesh metagame, also if vehicles like Smuggler's Copter (wich seems that will be played a lot) become prevalent, Murder will be much more relevant. (Change made in the end)
4th Ruinous Path replaces To the Slaughter slot in the sideboard.
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
2 Submerged Boneyard
8 Swamp
5 Island
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Blighted Fen
Creatures (4)
4 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Spells (26)
4 Transgress the Mind
4 Revolutionary Rebuff
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Murder
3 Ruinous Path
4 Void Shatter
4 Glimmer of Genius
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Metallurgic Summonings
2 Summary Dismissal
1 Ruinous Path
3 Essence Extraction
2 Negate
2 Dead Weight
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
4 Submerged Boneyard
8 Swamp
3 Island
1 Aether Hub
2 Blighted Fen
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (4)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Spells (26)
3 Transgress the Mind
3 Anticipate
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Murder
3 Ruinous Path
4 Scatter to the winds
3 Glimmer of Genius
2 Summary Dismissal
1 Confirm Suspicions
- No Revolutionary Rebuff, probably because it's kinda underwhelming, he also "replaces" them with other counters. (I still need more testing with this card, probably it's prevalence will depend on how many artifact we will be facing like Smuggler's Copter and all Gearhulk's)
- 2 copies of Summary Dismissal as a counter all. (sometimes feels too expensive but it's very versatile)
- 3 copies of Anticipate to smooth the early game (find land drops/removal) and find key cards mid/late game. (probably necessary to smooth the deck, not really sure about 3 copies though, maybe 2 and put the 4th Transgress the Mind instead)
- 1 Confirm Suspicions instead of the 4th Glimmer of Genius. (I like this 3-1 split a lot actually)
- 3-3 Ruinous Path and Murder split. (i already talked about this in the last post)
- 1-1 Ob Nixilis Reignited and Jace, Unraveler of Secrets split. (I think Ob Nixilis Reignited is better most of the time)
- Scatter to the Winds instead of Void Shatter. (Scatter will be a cancel most of the time and the awakening will just give them targets for their removal, i think exiling is much more relevant)
I'd probably end up with something like this (if i use he's list as a model):
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
2 Submerged Boneyard
8 Swamp
5 Island
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Blighted Fen
Creatures (4)
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (4)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
4 Transgress the Mind
2 Anticipate
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Murder
3 Ruinous Path
4 Void Shatter
3 Glimmer of Genius
2 Summary Dismissal
1 Confirm Suspicions
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Metallurgic Summonings
2 Flaying Tendrils
3 Essence Extraction
1 To the Slaughter
2 Negate
2 Dead Weight
3 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
Instants (20)
4 Anticipate
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Murder
4 Scatter to the Winds
2 Glimmer of Genius
2 Summary Dismissal
1 Confirm Sucpicions
Sorceries (6)
4 Harsh Scrutiny
2 Ruinous Path
2 Dovin Baan
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1 Ob Nixilias Reignited
Lands (26)
2 Blighted Fen
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Island
1 Plains
4 Prairie Stream
4 Sunken Hollow
7 Swamp
2 Negate
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 To the Slaughter
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Summary Dismissal
2 Noxious Gearhulk
1 Torrential Gearhulk
The small W splash in this deck is to facilitate the inclusion of Dovin Baan without overly complicating the mana base. I played a planeswalker heavy Esper list at FNM last week that did a very similiar thing with a small U splash to include Dovin. I also played Harsh Scrutiny over Transgress the Mind and only found myself wanting Transgress against an Abzan Walker deck and UR Visions, otherwise Scrutiny was invaluable as a turn 1 creature remover and the scry is a great addition. I moved Liliana to the SB in favor of Dovin as there are a lot of 3 drops in the deck already and a little room at the 4 drop spot. I also added in a single copy of the Sphinx of the Final Word for added pressure along with protecting your own instants and sorceries.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
2 Submerged Boneyard
8 Swamp
5 Island
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Blighted Fen
Creatures (4)
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (4)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Transgress the Mind
3 Anticipate
2 Negate
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Murder
3 Ruinous Path
4 Void Shatter
3 Glimmer of Genius
1 Summary Dismissal
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Metallurgic Summonings
1 Summary Dismissal
1 Ruinous Path
3 Essence Extraction
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Transgress the Mind
2 Dead Weight
- After a decent amount of testing with Revolutionary Rebuff i can conclude it's just bad. Smuggler's Copter, Scrapheap Scrounger, and all gearhulk's make this card unplayable.
- Negate is the perfect counter spell replacement for Revolutionary Rebuff right now, especially against vehicles and planeswalker, that are the hardest cards for us to beat as a control deck, but we don't want more than 2 copies.
- Anticipate ocuppies the remaining 2 slots of Revolutionary Rebuff, it's just a necessary card to smooth the deck. The 3rd Anticipate steals the slot of the 4th Glimmer of Genius as we don't want as many similar effects in the deck (6 in total is fine).
- Transgress the Mind mainboard amount is reduced by one just because it's not as good as it was before, consequence of the faster pace of the actual meta. One copy of Summary Dismissal replaces it's place, as it's a very versatile card that it's [retty good to have as an option in the maindeck.
- Im not sure about the sideboard yet, but i think it's good enough against the aggro matchups and Metallurgic Summonings has been an all star against control-like matchups that can't get rid of it.
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Instants (18)
4 Anticipate
4 Grasp of Darkness
2 Negate
2 Essence Extraction
3 Scatter to the Winds
3 Fortune's Favor
Sorceries (8)
4 Harsh Scrutiny
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Ruinous Path
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
Lands (26)
3 Blighted Fen
4 Choked Estuary
4 Island
4 Submerged Boneyard
4 Sunken Hollow
7 Swamp
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Essence Extraction
3 Flaying Tendrils
3 Lost Legacy
3 Summary Dismissal
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Posted this in the other UB Control thread (probably should get them merged at some point) but since they are separate i felt like I share my FNM results. I ended up 2-2-1 on the night, with my losses coming from mana issues. Going to be completely honest and say that I don't remember how the matches went but I beat UR Visions/Thero-Alchemist and mono-white fliers, tied 1-1 Grixis Emerge, lost to BR Control 1-2 with my one win coming on the back of Torrential Gearhulk getting me multiple draws with Fortune's Favor, and losses were due to mana issues, and lost to RG Energy Aggro where I flooded out and couldn't get to my answers
Overall, Torrential Gearhulk is an amazing card, the value it can generate is amazing. Fortune's Favor impressed me a lot, not only by occasionally tossing an instant into the yard but often being what I needed, even by taking the face down pile. If you aren't running a deck that needs energy, definitely consider it over Glimmer of Genius. Harsh Scrutiny was always a great card, allowing me to get good information to set up a Lost Legacy out of the board. The deck was really fun to play and I look forward to refining it down the road.
@Pench: Why run Glimmer of Genius over Fortune's Favor? You don't need the energy Glimmer gives, Favor fills the yard for Torrential Gearhulk while also often giving you what you need. Also, why the 2-2 split between Boneyard and Wilds? why not just run 4 Boneyards?
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
I haven't tried Fortune's Favor, it may be better than Glimmer of Genius, but i feel that letting our opponent choose for us is meh. I have to play it so i can have a better opinion on it.
The 2 Evolving Wilds purpose is to shuffle the deck because with Anticipate and Glimmer of Genius we may put "good" cards in the bottom of the deck as a consequence of the games circumstances we get into (like scrying a Torrential Gearhulk to the bottom because we are in a pinch and need removal for the early game). That's mostly it, it may be wrong but the mana base has worked fine in general.
I see your point on the shuffle, that had not occurred to me. You choose the pile you put in your hand with Favor. If the face up pile has something you need, you take it, otherwise go with the face down (at least that's what I did and it worked out in my favor often)
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
- 3rd Liliana, the Last Hope in, 3rd Anticipate out. It's very good against aggro overall (it was a mistake to take out the 3rd in the first place).
- 3rd Flaying Tendrils in the sideboard using the spot that was left open. Very good against aggro, especially answering Scrapheap Scrounger.
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
2 Submerged Boneyard
8 Swamp
5 Island
2 Evolving Wilds
1 Blighted Fen
Creatures (4)
4 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (4)
3 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Transgress the Mind
2 Anticipate
2 Negate
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Murder
3 Ruinous Path
4 Void Shatter
3 Glimmer of Genius
1 Summary Dismissal
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Metallurgic Summonings
1 Summary Dismissal
1 Ruinous Path
3 Essence Extraction
3 Flaying Tendrils
1 Transgress the Mind
2 Dead Weight
I'm trying out Deadlock Trap and it has been a nice way of sinking the energy we incidentaly make. It could even go in together with Aether Meltdown if we need another more early removal. I still need more testing to see if it's good enough to get a spot in or at least in the sideboard. Deadlock Trap and Aether Meltdown also answers Scrapheap Scrounger wich in my opinion will be a big player in the metagame, so that may push it even further into the maindeck.
Why do you choose to run Ob Nixilis over Noxious Gearhulk?
C Long Live Eldrazi C
I'm worried about the overall survive ability of planeswalkers in this format though. So it might be worth testing.
Thats pretty much it, it's much more versatile than Noxious Gearhulk and 5 mana is a lot less than 6 mana. He's survability it's not that bad against aggro matchups if you are controlling them decently, but we board him out if he's bad (like vs W/R Vehicles). The life gain that Noxious Gearhulk offers is not necessary for game one most of the time, and if we need to gain life we have plenty of ways of doing it in our sideboard.
Standard - Some kind of control
Modern - UB Mill (casual)
EDH - Meren's Grave Shenanigans
Any further testing. I'm planning on playin this deck on Friday. Looking forward to it.
I'm happy with the current list, but still not sure how to get in Deadlock Trap in the deck (not sure if we need it though).
I tried out a single deadlock trap and it helped me win over emrakul evem if my opponent was able to bounce emrakul back to his hand and cast it again. With glimmer of genius and aether hub, you are sure to have enough energy to stop certain creatures, like ishkana's damage ability.
I also tried the 3-1 torrential - noxious gearhulk split and I got to say I'm loving it so far.
Lastly, ehile harsh scrutiny hits creatures, I find myself still leaning towards collective brutality as it protects my threats on and off the board. Creatures really isn't that much of a problem since we run a lot of 1 for 1 removal
I think Torrential Gearhulk is a must 4 of, is the best card in the deck by far and is the main win condition we have. Noxious Gearhulk is a good card but it's role is filled by Ob Nixilis in my opinion.
Haven't tried Collective Brutality but i can see why would you play it over Harsh Scrutiny and Transgress the Mind, but i prefer Transgress the Mind overall.
I agree that torrential is a clear win con and as much as I'd love to max it, the gain life and evasion noxious does is also something to consider especially if your local meta has plenty of aggro or midrange decks running around. I still keep a copy of ob nixilis main for additional removal. I'm also not to worried that I don't have enough torrential gearhulks since liliana can easily bring it back late in the game if it gets killed off
Anyway, I was curious about a couple of things - first, what type of decks have you been playing this against? I went 2-2 last time I played my list (should have been 3-1, but I got impatient and misplayed), only really struggling against a Grixis Zombie/Gearhulk list that used Zombies for early aggro, then Saheeli Rai and Chandra to search for, ramp to, then copy black and red Gearhulks. Also, what about a Sequestered Stash as a way to recur our Gearhulks if needed? Just a one-of, over the 8th Swamp, perhaps? Oh, and talking land, why no Aether Hub? Lastly, sideboard... How reliable has Dead Weight been for you. It seems an interesting choice. Metallurgic Summonings also seems a little odd. In this list, it only really spews out 2/2s and 3/3s, which don't seem to be worth it. Admittedly, the ability to return cards from the graveyard is tempting. Do you only ever bring it in for control matchups, or is there other times that you would bring it in?
Some don't use aether hub is because some don't have the extra energy to re use it. As for dead weight I completely removed it since i'd rather play instant removal. metallurgic summoning is when you want to possibly out grind your opponent by using your instant spells to ambush their creatures. A bunch of 3/3 and 4/4 ain't so bad. Just to share this is the list I took to fnm today and finished 3-1 with only losing to U/W spirit copter (darn quellers hitting all my instant removal). Winning over g/b delirium, b/w control and a mono blue prison aetherflux reservoir homebrew.
4 choked estuary
1 submerged boneyard
1 geier reach sanitarium
2 aether hub
1 blighted fen
6 island
7 swamp
2 liliana, the last hope
1 jace, unraveler of secrets
1 ob nixilis, reignited
2 scatter to the wind
2 void shatter
1 summary dismissal
2 ruinous path
2 essence extraction
2 murder
4 grasp of darkness
3 glimmer of genius
1 deadlock trap
2 collective brutality
1 flaying tendrils
2 anticipate
1 noxious gearhulk
2 gonti, lord of luxury
2 transgress the mind
2 harsh scrutiny
2 negate
1 summary dismissal
1 essence extraction
2 flaying tendrils
2 kalitas, traitor of ghet
2 lost legacy
1 metallurgic summonings
The deck is pretty straight forward a draw-go control deck, gonti is great since he can often hit your opponents key cards especially if you recur him with liliana. The 3 toughness is a liability though since he easily eats a slew of removal, but as long as you exile a good card of him, that's value already. (Was able to win off him by exiling a sorin and an oath of liliana from an opponent which killed any chance of my opponent stabilizing again)
Noxious gearhulk is there as an answer to brisela or if you manage to draw/recurr it after an emrakul mindslaved turn, but in reality that's why you have summary dismissal. As i said in a previous post, the life gain and evasion are what makes it playable for me.
As for deadlock trap, it helps tap huge dudes, prevents ishkana activations, stops walkers from ticking up or going off and with glimmer of genius, aether hub and recurring glimmer of a torrential gearhulk, you'd have a lot of excess energy lying around for deadlock trap.
Sideboard is pretty self explanatory, but special mention to lost legacy game two gives you a good idea of what threats are in your opponents deck and removing them entirely helps you effectively incapacitate them, so for me this card is really good and with cards that let you peek at their hand, you can make sure they don't draw much from it.
Do you (or anyone else here) ever side out the Gearhulks for any matchups?
EDIT: No consideration of Mind's Dilation for control mirrors? If they try to cast anything to counter, draw or remove our stuff, then there's a chance that we could reveal a counter off their own library, or get draw spells, etc... Or better yet, reveal one of their walkers or Gearhulks.
1) 2-1 Against Grixis Burn
2) 2-0 Against B/R Control
3) 2-0 Against R/B Aggro
Overall the deck did pretty well, i never boarded out Torrential Gearhulk because the card IS the deck. I was not impressed that much with Dead Weight, might cut 1 and replace it with maybe Deadlock Trap.
I think Metalurgic Summonings is the better card in the context of an enchantment that generates value over time and it's difficult to answer. It's cheaper (5 is a lot less than 7) and you play around your cards, not your opponents.