I'm starting to lose a little faith in the deck. It is a lot of times just too durdley. Without Chandra we put out almost no pressure. Thing in the Ice is too vulnerable, because people just ignore it for a while and then kill it. Even as good as Jace is the blue in the deck just seems weak. Anybody else feeling this way?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
I still have confidence in how the deck works, but if the metagame shifts as it has at the Pro Tour, there won't be quite as many small creatures running about for us to shoot down with out red removal. :/
I have been thoroughly underwhelmed with Fiery Impulse. Maybe I have been unlucky but the decks on MTGO have been going more midrange and it's really bad against something like Kalitas and Avacyn unless you have a goggles out. I can see it as a 2 of to supplement the Lightning Axes, but anything more than 6 spells that can only hit creatures seems overkill.
It's off topic so I won't post the list here, but I have been messing with a Jund Goggles list today that is mostly aggro with the goggles plays to supplement. It abuses some of the discard inherent with the goggles lists to allow you to toss Deathmist Raptor in the graveyard and then cheat him back out all while not losing any card advantage.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
6+ potential removal spells yes, but not more than 6 spells that can ONLY target creatures. The deck has Fiery Temper and Fall of the Titans for a reason. They are flexible as removal or damage to the face.
Just to be clear, I am not advocating for not playing Fiery Impulse, I am merely saying maxing them out at 4 of is overkill. It's safely a 2 of spell, I think people are jumping the gun with playing them as 4 of. There are better and more flexible things to be doing with those other 2 card slots.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
reporting in as promised after the GPT at my LGS on Saturday. I played the deck again and got knocked out in the semifinals of top 8 by humans (which our deck is supposed to beat right? ). this report will be brief since it's been a few days since the tournament and the details of the matches are fuzzy. I will post my list if anyone asks it of me, although there haven't been many changes.
r1 0-2 vs. BW midrange?
eldrazi displacer and relentless dead were giving me fits the whole match and it didn't help when I was unfortunate enough to witness avacyn + displacer with 3 mana up.
r2 2-1 vs. esper demonic pact
I used to play esper pact myself so I knew what this deck was all about as soon as I saw the colors and the first demonic pact. I burned him out g1, he ohko'd me with enchantment creatures from starfield of nyx g2, and I had negates for his relevant spells g3 and then Chandra came down to clean things up.
r3 1-1-1 vs. esper dragons
I feel like our deck just loses to them g1, which I did. however, fevered visions out of the board is just insane. left my opponent countering/killing his own cards just to avoid getting shocked. we went to time game 3 and drew when we were in turns but he would have died if we had a few more turns as I had double visions and he had a full grip.
r4 2-0 vs. UB tutelage?
this was a strange one. g1 I almost get milled out by tutelage but not before going to the dome with a huge fall of the titans. g2 my opponent gets very mana screwed which was unfortunate for him but good for me since I needed the best record I could get at this point to have any hope of making top 8.
r5 2-0 vs. the remnants of RG landfall?
this deck was mostly green but it did have atarka's command and I suspect a few bigger things I didn't see like maybe arlinn kord. that said, small creature decks are what this deck is supposed to wreck and I did so with Chandra both games. not too much to say about this one.
I crossed my fingers and refused to do/listen to any tiebreaker analysis but I ended up making top 8!
quarter finals vs. mardu control
similar to the esper dragons game, however I did manage to win g1. he transgressed me a few times and whiffed and Chandra came down to clean up. g2 fevered visions put the stranglehold on him. that card is extremely strong vs. decks with so much removal. I just boarded out all my creatures and he is left with a deck full of dead cards.
semis vs. humans
not much to say here, I got ran over both games. my hand g1 was a little suspect and I lost to basically the goldfish kill. g2 I had kozilek's return and a thing in the ice which was going to flip, but it didn't make it in time before I died.
all in all it worked out well because we all decided to split the top prize before the semis began, so even though I lost I walked out with more prizes than I would have had I not agreed to split with my opponents.
some reflection after the tournament: I untapped with a creature in play maybe twice the entire day. going forward I think I may try a creatureless version of the deck. jace and thing are great but every deck is packing creature removal. I think most of my games were won on the back of goggles+burn or Chandra doing her thing. Wednesday I plan to either try a creatureless UR list continuing to use visions out of the sideboard or something similar to Christian siebold's mono red goggles list from the pro tour with vessel of volatility. it seems very explosive and you can transform into mono r eldrazi out of the side which is really cool. I will report back after Wednesday. if I really like the mono red list it may mean my departure from the thread but I will continue to lurk.
So I cut all the jace and titi from the deck and am just running two jori as my creatures with 3 titi in the sb for rites and ramp. Have only played a few games with it but it feels much better then it did, the gameplan feels more focused but the sb is super crowded now, but there are a million flex slots in the MB now, i might even run a one of big jace just to try it out. But im also running two void shatter MB now which have been clutch, as well as one MB roast and k return as an easy flex slot, along with four impulse. Will report with further testing later on.
in an ideal situation, this is the best shell for jace because it enables the earliest jace flips. and when jace flips in this deck, you have a very hard time losing the game. however, most decks are playing some kind of removal. some decks are pretty much built around creature removal, like mardu control and BW to a lesser extent. jace is a removal magnet (really any creature in your deck is a removal magnet if you are only playing 8 or so, the opponent wants to use those removal spells in their deck). he is incredibly good in this deck (better than he is in any other deck imo) but personally I am really tired of playing him and just having him die when most of the time it isn't even jace that is going to win me the game.
don't get me wrong, if I were going to keep any creatures in the deck, it would probably be some number of jace. however, I have always really valued/enjoyed creatureless decks, especially in standard, because they blank the removal spells in every deck.
As good as Fevered Visions is, Jace is the reason to run blue in the deck. I can see opting for another color (and the players at the PT did just that), but I just have a hard time believing Jace doesn't belong in the UR version.
I know some of you have frowned on the splash, but playing Ojutai's Command does a lot to help Jace out. He will still probably eat an early removal but at least you can bounce him back out later and end of turn. That has been the only consistent way I have found of getting him flipped in the current meta.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
As good as Fevered Visions is, Jace is the reason to run blue in the deck. I can see opting for another color (and the players at the PT did just that), but I just have a hard time believing Jace doesn't belong in the UR version.
I agree with you. I never said visions was better than jace or that it was the reason you should play blue, just that jace gets killed on sight an awful lot of the time.
I know some of you have frowned on the splash, but playing Ojutai's Command does a lot to help Jace out. He will still probably eat an early removal but at least you can bounce him back out later and end of turn. That has been the only consistent way I have found of getting him flipped in the current meta.
ojutai's command is great with jace but I think 3 color just makes the mana a lot worse than it needs to be here. although returning jace is really nice, there is a LOT of exile these days. silkwrap, anguished unmaking, declaration in stone, and stasis snare are all common cards to run into. command gets a lot worse when you have no jace to return with it. I'm not in the business of fiery impulsing my own jace to save it from getting exiled either.
i'm going mono red goggle dragon tonight I decided, it seems sweet. I don't mind playing thunderbreak because even if it eats removal they get burned, I will take that trade.
when I get my hands on some nahiri's I want to try the jeskai version as well. I admit I haven't actually played with 3 color mana since fetchlands left so I am skeptical but I have been wrong before and will certainly be wrong in the future.
I played several matches against mardu control, the games were all close but ultimatly favored UR goggles, the rites matchup was very easy, I played nine matches against Bant coco, the preboard games were easy, the post board games were more difficult but winnable, I played six matches against season's past control, the pre board games were unfavorable but became favorable after board. I havnt played against mono white humans with the deck but those matchups seem like they would be a bye, ramp still seems very difficult however although I havnt actually played the matchup with the new version yet. my SB was as follows, will probably be moved around quite a bit
surgery seems very well positioned right now, and thing comes in against ramp and rites(they have very little interaction, you can ussually just play it and it will never be dealt with and it just naturally flips). I would also bring in TITI in g3's where I see my opponent has boarded out all of there removal. I will be testing further tomorrow and saturday, I intend to take the deck to a PPTQ saturday.
edit: I still think R splash U is better then mono red, at least right now because it allows us to turn into counter burn post board, and gives us ways to deal with decks that we would normally be unable to beat. I also dont think that theoretically we stand a chance against thought knot/git frog decks, but luckily for us, those decks have been largely pushed out of the meta game.
IMO there is to much removal right now to play a threat light deck.but there are matchup where he is very good, he's good against ramp, good in the mirror and very very good against the rites deck, especially g1. But I moved him to the sb for now
Not in a good place right now for a deck that has no way to actually protect him. I love the card, but he's just sort of awkward to play with in the current meta.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW UWGBantUWG GWRNaya ZooRWG
Anguished Unmaking sees 2—3 copies in BWx Variants.
Kolaghan's Command remains in the format.
Negate and Transgress the Mind affect how quickly and safely Goggle's hits the board.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
It's off topic so I won't post the list here, but I have been messing with a Jund Goggles list today that is mostly aggro with the goggles plays to supplement. It abuses some of the discard inherent with the goggles lists to allow you to toss Deathmist Raptor in the graveyard and then cheat him back out all while not losing any card advantage.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
au contraire, 6+ creature removals are necessary.
Just to be clear, I am not advocating for not playing Fiery Impulse, I am merely saying maxing them out at 4 of is overkill. It's safely a 2 of spell, I think people are jumping the gun with playing them as 4 of. There are better and more flexible things to be doing with those other 2 card slots.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
r1 0-2 vs. BW midrange?
eldrazi displacer and relentless dead were giving me fits the whole match and it didn't help when I was unfortunate enough to witness avacyn + displacer with 3 mana up.
r2 2-1 vs. esper demonic pact
I used to play esper pact myself so I knew what this deck was all about as soon as I saw the colors and the first demonic pact. I burned him out g1, he ohko'd me with enchantment creatures from starfield of nyx g2, and I had negates for his relevant spells g3 and then Chandra came down to clean things up.
r3 1-1-1 vs. esper dragons
I feel like our deck just loses to them g1, which I did. however, fevered visions out of the board is just insane. left my opponent countering/killing his own cards just to avoid getting shocked. we went to time game 3 and drew when we were in turns but he would have died if we had a few more turns as I had double visions and he had a full grip.
r4 2-0 vs. UB tutelage?
this was a strange one. g1 I almost get milled out by tutelage but not before going to the dome with a huge fall of the titans. g2 my opponent gets very mana screwed which was unfortunate for him but good for me since I needed the best record I could get at this point to have any hope of making top 8.
r5 2-0 vs. the remnants of RG landfall?
this deck was mostly green but it did have atarka's command and I suspect a few bigger things I didn't see like maybe arlinn kord. that said, small creature decks are what this deck is supposed to wreck and I did so with Chandra both games. not too much to say about this one.
I crossed my fingers and refused to do/listen to any tiebreaker analysis but I ended up making top 8!
quarter finals vs. mardu control
similar to the esper dragons game, however I did manage to win g1. he transgressed me a few times and whiffed and Chandra came down to clean up. g2 fevered visions put the stranglehold on him. that card is extremely strong vs. decks with so much removal. I just boarded out all my creatures and he is left with a deck full of dead cards.
semis vs. humans
not much to say here, I got ran over both games. my hand g1 was a little suspect and I lost to basically the goldfish kill. g2 I had kozilek's return and a thing in the ice which was going to flip, but it didn't make it in time before I died.
all in all it worked out well because we all decided to split the top prize before the semis began, so even though I lost I walked out with more prizes than I would have had I not agreed to split with my opponents.
some reflection after the tournament: I untapped with a creature in play maybe twice the entire day. going forward I think I may try a creatureless version of the deck. jace and thing are great but every deck is packing creature removal. I think most of my games were won on the back of goggles+burn or Chandra doing her thing. Wednesday I plan to either try a creatureless UR list continuing to use visions out of the sideboard or something similar to Christian siebold's mono red goggles list from the pro tour with vessel of volatility. it seems very explosive and you can transform into mono r eldrazi out of the side which is really cool. I will report back after Wednesday. if I really like the mono red list it may mean my departure from the thread but I will continue to lurk.
We will rebuild.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
don't get me wrong, if I were going to keep any creatures in the deck, it would probably be some number of jace. however, I have always really valued/enjoyed creatureless decks, especially in standard, because they blank the removal spells in every deck.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
I agree with you. I never said visions was better than jace or that it was the reason you should play blue, just that jace gets killed on sight an awful lot of the time.
ojutai's command is great with jace but I think 3 color just makes the mana a lot worse than it needs to be here. although returning jace is really nice, there is a LOT of exile these days. silkwrap, anguished unmaking, declaration in stone, and stasis snare are all common cards to run into. command gets a lot worse when you have no jace to return with it. I'm not in the business of fiery impulsing my own jace to save it from getting exiled either.
UR Blue-Red Control
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
UWR Jeskai Control
when I get my hands on some nahiri's I want to try the jeskai version as well. I admit I haven't actually played with 3 color mana since fetchlands left so I am skeptical but I have been wrong before and will certainly be wrong in the future.
4 fiery impulse
4 tormenting voice
3 magmatic insight
3 pyromancer's goggles
2 jori en, ruin diver
1 roast
2 exquisite firecraft
4 lightning ax
2 fall of the titan's
2 void shatter
I played several matches against mardu control, the games were all close but ultimatly favored UR goggles, the rites matchup was very easy, I played nine matches against Bant coco, the preboard games were easy, the post board games were more difficult but winnable, I played six matches against season's past control, the pre board games were unfavorable but became favorable after board. I havnt played against mono white humans with the deck but those matchups seem like they would be a bye, ramp still seems very difficult however although I havnt actually played the matchup with the new version yet. my SB was as follows, will probably be moved around quite a bit
surgery seems very well positioned right now, and thing comes in against ramp and rites(they have very little interaction, you can ussually just play it and it will never be dealt with and it just naturally flips). I would also bring in TITI in g3's where I see my opponent has boarded out all of there removal. I will be testing further tomorrow and saturday, I intend to take the deck to a PPTQ saturday.
edit: I still think R splash U is better then mono red, at least right now because it allows us to turn into counter burn post board, and gives us ways to deal with decks that we would normally be unable to beat. I also dont think that theoretically we stand a chance against thought knot/git frog decks, but luckily for us, those decks have been largely pushed out of the meta game.
We will rebuild.
We will rebuild.
Not in a good place right now for a deck that has no way to actually protect him. I love the card, but he's just sort of awkward to play with in the current meta.
Modern
xWBreakfast at Urza'sxW
UWGBantUWG
GWRNaya ZooRWG
2 Highland Lake
4 Shivan Reef
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Island
7 Mountain
1 Burn from Within
3 Fall of the Titans
3 Magmatic Insight
4 Lightning Axe
4 Thing in the Ice
4 Tormenting Voice
1 Jori En, Ruin Diver
1 Kozilek's Return
4 Fiery Temper
4 Fevered Visions
2 Pyromancer's Goggles
3 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Negate
4 Eldrazi Obligator
FNM 3-0
Round 1 vs GR Ramp (2-1)
// He's playing 2G and 3G ramp spells into World Breaker. 0 creatures with CMC or Toughness <6.
-4 Lightning Axe -1 Kozilek's Return
+3 Negate +2 Eldrazi Obligator
Round 2 vs Jund (2-0)
// Game 1 I see lots of creature removal, and Thing in the Ice has a hard time flipping.
-4 Thing in the Ice
+3 Negate +1 Eldrazi Obligator
Round 3 vs Naya (2-1)
// Against Arlinn Kord and Nahiri, Negate comes in. Would rather have Eldrazi Obligator steal Avacyn, than have Thing in the Ice at 1 counter getting Declaration in Stoned.
-4 Thing in the Ice -1 Jori En, Ruin Diver
+3 Negate +2 Eldrazi Obligator
THE GOOD!
The 1 Jori En, Ruin Diver. Consistently drew cards, made Mulligans better, never upset to see it.
The 1 Burn from Within. With Pyromancer's Goggles, this card hits 12+ every time.
The 4 Fevered Visions maindeck. 1 Fevered Visions alone deals 6-8 damage, draws cards, redirects damage to answer Planeswalkers, applies pressure.
THE BAD.
Sideboard. I had 15 cards sleeved, but other than the 3 Negate and Eldrazi Obligator, nothing else counted.
2 Highland Lake
4 Shivan Reef
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Island
7 Mountain
1 Burn from Within
2 Fiery Impulse
3 Fall of the Titans
4 Lightning Axe
4 Fiery Temper
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Fevered Visions
4 Thing in the Ice
1 Jori En, Ruin Diver
2 Pyromancer's Goggles
3 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Negate
2 Dispel
2 Eldrazi Obligator
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
3 Horribly Awry
1 Fiery Impulse
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Burn from Within
1 Orbs of Warding