Here is my current iteration of this deck. Started out just UR then went to this The mana base is a bit greedy but in testing and @ FNM has yet to be an issue. The ability to cast Day's Undoing at your opponents end step in response to the visions trigger plays really well as well as using our sorcery speed removal whilst fogging all the way.
Thats a really interesting list, however Day's Undoing is Sorcery, so I guess you mean Brain in a jar. Thats a pretty nifty combo.
One thing I see that I dont particularly like with your deck is it seems like it may have trouble keeping their hand full sometimes. Like you're exiling, killing, and leaving their creatures on the field instead of bouncing them back up. Does that leave enough cards in hand to trigger Fevered Visions without the constant bounce?
Ran this deck tonight, just ripped the 60 from the op. Went pretty well, 3-1-1, lost in top 8. I beat ramp in round 1, but I think it was more just to drawing better than him. Beat a more red version of this deck in round 2, running Tutelage and Tormenting Voice/Magmatic Insight, but I feel like his deck was more consistent, and probably the better deck. I don't recall my round 3/4 opponents, it was a long night, but it was an ID fifth round. Top 8, I'm playing one of the best players in the store, running Esper No-Creature Control. Visions did not fare well, to say the least. Days Undoing was always as good for him as it was for me, Visions gets hit by Anguished Unmaking immediately, and he was just prepared for every scenario. Still, it was a good finish, and the deck did far better than I expected. I don't know if this is the perfect version of it, but there is definitely something here.
Engulf the Shore is absolutely insane, it was a card I always wanted in my hand. Same goes for Days Undoing.
Awesome! Glad it went so well for you. If you remember, can you dive into a bit more detail on the ramp match? Was it just that you hit multiples of Visions and got him before he could draw into a World Breaker or Ulamog?
Also, with Esper, or really any other Control, I havent really had any issues, were you just missing counters really, or had a later Fevered Visions and not T3? The thing about this deck that I think really shines against control is that they are a reactive deck, and play their cards in response. We dont have much for them to react to, so just let them sit there and not play spells, keeping them in hand.
What was your SB like, or did you just run the stock 60 with no SB. If you go 3-1-1 without a SB thats pretty dang good lol.
@metalcrafter:
Yeah, that was similar to my very original Visions deck. I've found I just really like this more all-in approach though. It seems like the major difference is that yours is running Visions as a gas machine, where my list runs it as a Finisher/Win-con. I bet yours does a whole lot better against ramp than ours though.
As for Structural Distortion, I love that card lol, but I have a weakness for Land Destruction, so maybe im not the best person to ask.
When I heard about this deck my final envision of it thought it would include cards like Stormchaser Mage, Chandra, Flamecaller, and possibly Jori En, Ruin Diver. However, I would like to see if a creatureless deck would work like @pyro1934 is proposing. Brain in a Jar intrigues me since it allows you to play sorcery cards at instant speed as well as allowing you to dig by scrying. It may be just the card this deck needs to help with the one weak point zzpoint had with drawing/scrying as well as allowing Day's Undoing to be put on the Fevered Visions stack to ensure that the damage goes through.
I agree, Brain in a Jar seems like an awesome card for this deck. I'm not sure what we'd cut, but probably something like 1x Anticipate, 1x 3-drop counter.
I played 12 matches during last two days on mtgo, my win rate is 75%. There is no surprise regarding the worst enemies: ramp, swarm and lack of visions in the hand. As experiment I put mountains instead of Shivan Reef to find out how easy we can splash something, so far I was not punished for that. Negate is very useful, I run 4 of them and I removed one Calculated Dismissal. I still play 24 lands (5 Mountains). I tried Horribly Awry in sideboard against swarm and this card looks very good, it exiles problem creatures and 2cmc is great, it have no synergy with Ring, but we can't have it all. 2cmc is a magic number in this deck, I can leave 2 lands untapped and possibility to anticipate, counter, spot bounce. I wish all my instants to be 2cmc, that's why cards like Hydrolash are too costly for me.
I want to do more testing with current version before doing changes. The idea to bring creatures looks less attractive each time the opponent discards removal.
I played 12 matches during last two days on mtgo, my win rate is 75%. There is no surprise regarding the worst enemies: ramp, swarm and lack of visions in the hand. As experiment I put mountains instead of Shivan Reef to find out how easy we can splash something, so far I was not punished for that. Negate is very useful, I run 4 of them and I removed one Calculated Dismissal. I still play 24 lands (5 Mountains). I tried Horribly Awry in sideboard against swarm and this card looks very good, it exiles problem creatures and 2cmc is great, it have no synergy with Ring, but we can't have it all. 2cmc is a magic number in this deck, I can leave 2 lands untapped and possibility to anticipate, counter, spot bounce. I wish all my instants to be 2cmc, that's why cards like Hydrolash are too costly for me.
I want to do more testing with current version before doing changes. The idea to bring creatures looks less attractive each time the opponent discards removal.
Is the loss of life with Shivan Reef enough to warrant a switch to strictly mountains?
The loss of life with Shivan Reef is minor, usually I either win with 30+ life or lose and 1-3 points of damage are not changing it. I put mountains to test the possibility to splash white or black, e.g. white: 4 Islands can be replaced by 4 Prairie Stream and 4 Shivan Reef replaced by Battlefield Forge. The idea is to look how this deck works if it loses 4 blue sources and so far it's ok.
Great idea with Brain in a Jar! I think it's worth testing.
That would give you 20 (4 come in tapped) sources of blue and 13 (4 come in tapped) sources of red unless Frank was referring to unique sources of mana.
@pink_moon, yes, my bad, days don't counter anything on opponent's turn.
Can you Brain in a Jar for a third counter and the beginning of the opponents end step (or end of their second main), cast Day's Undoing, and put it on the stack with Fevered Visions or am I misunderstanding priority logic?
@JDeeezy, we need Islands for Engulf the Shore, 11 is too low and engulf will not be effective.
I knew I was overlooking something. I guess then if I am not looking to splash a third color then the current land setup you have mentioned would work best.
I was looking as Exquisite Firecraft as well and reeally like the card as part of a finisher. However I was dissuaded by the thought of putting only 4 or fewer burn spells in there. It may make the difference, but is it consistent? Probably enough to get 1-2 with all the draw/filter.
As for Brain in a Jar, I really like that card as well, but only if we can find room. The only three things I feel we may have the ability to take out are 1 of each: Anticipate, Disperse, 3cmcCounter. With 3x Brain, you'd see it most games, but there would definitely be a few you dont.
2 CMC spells are definitely the life-blood of this deck, thats part of why it can do so well against other aggro decks where most control decks fail. Our curve is lower than any other control deck by a decent chunk. Our consistency is better than most control decks. Our draw/filtering is better than most control decks. I agree that 6 is the magic number for lands, after that youre set pretty much, however 8 is a really good benchmark too. I usually run 23 lands fine with no issues, but I've always been a fan of low mana.
As for a splash, I like the idea there, but it'd have to be a true splash to warrant running it, using Void Shatter, possibly Horribly Awry, and splashing a third color is going to make our prism rings a lot less exciting. I really want to look into trying to splash Black. You can do something like the following for mainboard mana base: Current:(23)Splash of Black: (23)
15x Island11x Island
4x Shivan Reef4x Choked Estuary
4x Wandering Fumarole2x Foreboding Ruins
2x Smoldering Marsh
4x Wandering Fumarole Edit: I rarely use either Shivan Reef or Wandering Fumarole for blue mana, so it may be risky, but we could possibly switch those to some other lands too.
This imo gives us better splash options. White is cool, and really strong this standard, but I just dont see what it can bring to the table for this deck style over black. The two main cards I'd be thinking about splashing black for are: Damnable Pact && Infinite Obliteration
Obliteration being more of a SB card against ramp. Another odd choice, that's probably bad but may help off-set the lessening effect of Prism Ring would be Alms of the Vein.
As for swarm matchups, I've found that we dont want to kill their creatures. Most of them become capable of laying down 3+ cards a turn later in the game, so we NEED to bounce everything in order to keep their hand full. I still think Displacement Wave should hopefully be all we really need for them, but I'd want to bring in at least 3 of them if not the full 4. Displacement Wave on T3 for 1 is awesome against the weenies, especially followed by an Instant T5 declare combat Engulf the Shore.
Double Edit: Just realized that white brings something else to the table. We could instead of switching the reefs for Battlefield Forge switch them for Needle Spires. This could give us a little bit more reach, and hopefully wouldnt hurt our manabase too much.
So far Brain is performing very good. The expected value is pseudo-ramp, it's quite cool to cast days paying only 1 mana, so the other lands stay untapped ready for action. The surprise was in G1 my opponents valued Brain higher than Visions and used their Anguished Unmaking to exile Brain.
However I didn't face neither ramp nor swarm yesterday, so it's hard to say how good is Brain in these matchups. Looks like everybody prepares to fight against white humans and runs half-deck of removal, which is very good for us.
Looks like its pretty good. I was leaning towards getting rid of the 3cmc counters for Brain as well. Interesting that they valued brain higher, but I bet they wouldnt do that Game2 haha. Only thing I would change is maybe 1 Mountain for 1 more Island, and or, take out the Dispel for another Horribly Awry.
I don't see much reason to play 2 brains in a jar. Isn't one sufficient? Just replace 1 Anticipate with it. Youu'll find it eventually. It makes our lategame stronger, that's what I like about it.
-1 Brain in a Jar and +1 mountain based off of @zzpoint's latest deck list?
So far Brain is performing very good. The expected value is pseudo-ramp, it's quite cool to cast days paying only 1 mana, so the other lands stay untapped ready for action. The surprise was in G1 my opponents valued Brain higher than Visions and used their Anguished Unmaking to exile Brain.
However I didn't face neither ramp nor swarm yesterday, so it's hard to say how good is Brain in these matchups. Looks like everybody prepares to fight against white humans and runs half-deck of removal, which is very good for us.
Did you ever use the Brain in a Jar's scry mechanic to filter through the deck? Also, were you able to cast Day's Undoing using Brain in a Jar on the Fevered Visions trigger in your testing?
@pyro1934, yes, they have another priorities in G2 I still think that 8 red sources is too low, I run 9 and in some games I have only 1 red source until late game.
@pink_moon, I put 2 Brains, because I think I need it early. Our late game is strong enough.
My personal record - yesterday I won a game with 70 life at the end
@JDeeezy, no and no. The best thing Brain did so far: I had 5 lands and cast days for 1 mana at my turn, knowing that after that Engulf will be online if I draw it. Also it was a hate target for their removal. I never put more than 3 counters on Brain and didn't want to use them for scry because potentially I could cast Engulf for 1 (and because I had a good hand in that game). Probably it's better to scry once there are 3 counters. I'm still learning how to use it.
In theory, Brain in a Jar also makes it possible to recycle Day's Undoing, as it is not exiled when cast in our opponent's turn.
Still unsure on
a) how many Brains to play
b) what to move out to make room... likely candidates imho are
-fourth Day's Undoing, due to it now being recyclable.
-fourth Anticipate, due to Brain's scry option
-fourth 2CMC3 CMCCounter (though I am party to running 4 VS in the main... I feel naked without counterspells ;-) Edit: i meant Void Shatter and Calculated Dismissal, not Negate and Horribly Awry
-eighth targeted bounce (Disperse, as Compelling Deterrance is strictly better (though not relevant in this deck)). perhaps the difference between 7 and eight copies is small enough?
How needed have Horribly Awry been? Right now my plan for Friday has two TitI and a 3rd Void Shatter (2/2 split with Calculated Dismissla in MB) in their spot...
Horribly Awry is good vs hasty and/or annoying creatures, it's amazing vs Thought-Knot Seer. Also it's relevant in the late game, because opponent wants to cast as many spells as he could per turn and definitely will cast something what costs 4 or less.
I didn't see that days are not exiled with Brain. Great news, now we can shuffle infinitely!
@JDeeezy, no and no. The best thing Brain did so far: I had 5 lands and cast days for 1 mana at my turn, knowing that after that Engulf will be online if I draw it. Also it was a hate target for their removal. I never put more than 3 counters on Brain and didn't want to use them for scry because potentially I could cast Engulf for 1 (and because I had a good hand in that game). Probably it's better to scry once there are 3 counters. I'm still learning how to use it.
I was thinking the same thing for probably having at max 3 counters on Brain in a Jar before scrying UNLESS you have Engulf the Shores in hand and want to play it at a cheeky 1 mana cost. Understanding the efficient situations to use Brain in a Jar in this deck would be great. I can't wait to play this at FNM.
Here is the list
4 Brain in a Jar
2 Prisim Ring
4 Fevered Visions
2 Oath of Jace
4 Void Shatter
3 Engulf the Shore
4 Encircling Fissure
3 Revealing Wind
3 Declaration in stone
3 Day's Undoing
1 Rise from the tides
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Prarie Stream
4 Sunken Hollow
1 Lumbering Falls
7 Islands
3 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Forest
2 Cinder Glade
One thing I see that I dont particularly like with your deck is it seems like it may have trouble keeping their hand full sometimes. Like you're exiling, killing, and leaving their creatures on the field instead of bouncing them back up. Does that leave enough cards in hand to trigger Fevered Visions without the constant bounce?
Engulf the Shore is absolutely insane, it was a card I always wanted in my hand. Same goes for Days Undoing.
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Also, with Esper, or really any other Control, I havent really had any issues, were you just missing counters really, or had a later Fevered Visions and not T3? The thing about this deck that I think really shines against control is that they are a reactive deck, and play their cards in response. We dont have much for them to react to, so just let them sit there and not play spells, keeping them in hand.
What was your SB like, or did you just run the stock 60 with no SB. If you go 3-1-1 without a SB thats pretty dang good lol.
@metalcrafter:
Yeah, that was similar to my very original Visions deck. I've found I just really like this more all-in approach though. It seems like the major difference is that yours is running Visions as a gas machine, where my list runs it as a Finisher/Win-con. I bet yours does a whole lot better against ramp than ours though.
As for Structural Distortion, I love that card lol, but I have a weakness for Land Destruction, so maybe im not the best person to ask.
I will be running your deck this FNM.
When I heard about this deck my final envision of it thought it would include cards like Stormchaser Mage, Chandra, Flamecaller, and possibly Jori En, Ruin Diver. However, I would like to see if a creatureless deck would work like @pyro1934 is proposing. Brain in a Jar intrigues me since it allows you to play sorcery cards at instant speed as well as allowing you to dig by scrying. It may be just the card this deck needs to help with the one weak point zzpoint had with drawing/scrying as well as allowing Day's Undoing to be put on the Fevered Visions stack to ensure that the damage goes through.
I want to do more testing with current version before doing changes. The idea to bring creatures looks less attractive each time the opponent discards removal.
Is the loss of life with Shivan Reef enough to warrant a switch to strictly mountains?
Great idea with Brain in a Jar! I think it's worth testing.
11 Islands
5 Mountains
4 Shivan Reefs
4 Wandering Fumaroles
That would give you 20 (4 come in tapped) sources of blue and 13 (4 come in tapped) sources of red unless Frank was referring to unique sources of mana.
@JDeeezy, we need Islands for Engulf the Shore, 11 is too low and engulf will not be effective.
I knew I was overlooking something. I guess then if I am not looking to splash a third color then the current land setup you have mentioned would work best.
As for Brain in a Jar, I really like that card as well, but only if we can find room. The only three things I feel we may have the ability to take out are 1 of each: Anticipate, Disperse, 3cmc Counter. With 3x Brain, you'd see it most games, but there would definitely be a few you dont.
2 CMC spells are definitely the life-blood of this deck, thats part of why it can do so well against other aggro decks where most control decks fail. Our curve is lower than any other control deck by a decent chunk. Our consistency is better than most control decks. Our draw/filtering is better than most control decks. I agree that 6 is the magic number for lands, after that youre set pretty much, however 8 is a really good benchmark too. I usually run 23 lands fine with no issues, but I've always been a fan of low mana.
As for a splash, I like the idea there, but it'd have to be a true splash to warrant running it, using Void Shatter, possibly Horribly Awry, and splashing a third color is going to make our prism rings a lot less exciting. I really want to look into trying to splash Black. You can do something like the following for mainboard mana base:
Current:(23)Splash of Black: (23)
15x Island11x Island
4x Shivan Reef4x Choked Estuary
4x Wandering Fumarole2x Foreboding Ruins
2x Smoldering Marsh
4x Wandering Fumarole
Edit: I rarely use either Shivan Reef or Wandering Fumarole for blue mana, so it may be risky, but we could possibly switch those to some other lands too.
This imo gives us better splash options. White is cool, and really strong this standard, but I just dont see what it can bring to the table for this deck style over black. The two main cards I'd be thinking about splashing black for are: Damnable Pact && Infinite Obliteration
Obliteration being more of a SB card against ramp. Another odd choice, that's probably bad but may help off-set the lessening effect of Prism Ring would be Alms of the Vein.
As for swarm matchups, I've found that we dont want to kill their creatures. Most of them become capable of laying down 3+ cards a turn later in the game, so we NEED to bounce everything in order to keep their hand full. I still think Displacement Wave should hopefully be all we really need for them, but I'd want to bring in at least 3 of them if not the full 4. Displacement Wave on T3 for 1 is awesome against the weenies, especially followed by an Instant T5 declare combat Engulf the Shore.
Double Edit: Just realized that white brings something else to the table. We could instead of switching the reefs for Battlefield Forge switch them for Needle Spires. This could give us a little bit more reach, and hopefully wouldnt hurt our manabase too much.
4 Prism Ring
2 Brain in a Jar
Enchantment (4)
4 Fevered Visions
Instant (22)
4 Anticipate
4 Compelling Deterrence
4 Disperse
4 Engulf the Shore
4 Negate
2 Void Shatter
4 Day's Undoing
Planeswalker (1)
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Land (23)
14 Island
3 Mountain
2 Shivan Reef
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Aligned Hedron Network
4 Blessed Reincarnation
3 Displacement Wave
1 Dispel
1 Sphinx of the Final Word
2 Horribly Awry
The mains changes are +2 Brain in a Jar, -1 Island, remove all Calculated Dismissal and go back to 4 Negate in the main deck. Sideboard +2 Horribly Awry and +1 Dispel.
So far Brain is performing very good. The expected value is pseudo-ramp, it's quite cool to cast days paying only 1 mana, so the other lands stay untapped ready for action. The surprise was in G1 my opponents valued Brain higher than Visions and used their Anguished Unmaking to exile Brain.
However I didn't face neither ramp nor swarm yesterday, so it's hard to say how good is Brain in these matchups. Looks like everybody prepares to fight against white humans and runs half-deck of removal, which is very good for us.
-1 Brain in a Jar and +1 mountain based off of @zzpoint's latest deck list?
Did you ever use the Brain in a Jar's scry mechanic to filter through the deck? Also, were you able to cast Day's Undoing using Brain in a Jar on the Fevered Visions trigger in your testing?
@pink_moon, I put 2 Brains, because I think I need it early. Our late game is strong enough.
My personal record - yesterday I won a game with 70 life at the end
@JDeeezy, no and no. The best thing Brain did so far: I had 5 lands and cast days for 1 mana at my turn, knowing that after that Engulf will be online if I draw it. Also it was a hate target for their removal. I never put more than 3 counters on Brain and didn't want to use them for scry because potentially I could cast Engulf for 1 (and because I had a good hand in that game). Probably it's better to scry once there are 3 counters. I'm still learning how to use it.
Still unsure on
a) how many Brains to play
b) what to move out to make room... likely candidates imho are
-fourth Day's Undoing, due to it now being recyclable.
-fourth Anticipate, due to Brain's scry option
-fourth
2CMC3 CMCCounter (though I am party to running 4 VS in the main... I feel naked without counterspells ;-) Edit: i meant Void Shatter and Calculated Dismissal, not Negate and Horribly Awry-eighth targeted bounce (Disperse, as Compelling Deterrance is strictly better (though not relevant in this deck)). perhaps the difference between 7 and eight copies is small enough?
How needed have Horribly Awry been? Right now my plan for Friday has two TitI and a 3rd Void Shatter (2/2 split with Calculated Dismissla in MB) in their spot...
I didn't see that days are not exiled with Brain. Great news, now we can shuffle infinitely!
I was thinking the same thing for probably having at max 3 counters on Brain in a Jar before scrying UNLESS you have Engulf the Shores in hand and want to play it at a cheeky 1 mana cost. Understanding the efficient situations to use Brain in a Jar in this deck would be great. I can't wait to play this at FNM.