Looks pretty nice Negator. I guess the overall consistancy against the meta is worth dropping a bit of consistency against the hyper aggro. How's the sideboard working for you? Have you played any games vs ramp?
Hi Folks!
Glad to post my update for our deck. I added Oath of Chandra and Kozilek's Return
In my opinion, Oath of Chandra is the best response to the Dromoka's Command. On the other hand we put 3 damage to the Sylvan Advocate and other creatures with toughness 3 or less or we put 3 damage and then finish off creatures by Chandra, Flamecaller. And finally, when any of our planeswalkers enters the battlefield, at the end of turn, we put additional damage to our opponent.
About Kozilek's Return. After testing, I realized one thing that when we play against aggressive decks we must destroy their creatures and not bounce their. However, in the case of Always Watching we may combine bounce with destroy spells.
About Ramp deck. A combination of Aligned Hedron Network and Blessed Reincarnation is the best solution against Ramp. In my latest build I removed the cards against Ramp, because the my meta was changed.
I was wondering thoughts on this deck list? I found the original shell in a MTGGoldfish article, and decided to work on it abit. I've recently returned to playing MTG so bit shaky on the meta besides what i have read.
The deck focuses more on milling and drops some of the control as the original deck here. Combining Fevered Visions with Sphinx's Tutelage to set off a draw/mill cycle. Add in Magmatic Insight, Tormenting Voice] and Catalog can lead to big mill chains. The deck does better vs mono or small dip decks, but can play vs multi-coloured decks as well.
I feel the SB needs work. Against control it has some options, but, bit as many. The problem is I guess i don't know the meta of the story i will play in (as I have yet to buy the deck) so trying to make one as flexible as possible. below are cards i am considering. I feel the planeswalkers are too slow though. Startled Awake could be beneficial against control as it can be recurred from the graveyard if it is countered.
Hi Folks!
Glad to post my update for our deck. I added Oath of Chandra and Kozilek's Return
In my opinion, Oath of Chandra is the best response to the Dromoka's Command. On the other hand we put 3 damage to the Sylvan Advocate and other creatures with toughness 3 or less or we put 3 damage and then finish off creatures by Chandra, Flamecaller. And finally, when any of our planeswalkers enters the battlefield, at the end of turn, we put additional damage to our opponent.
About Kozilek's Return. After testing, I realized one thing that when we play against aggressive decks we must destroy their creatures and not bounce their. However, in the case of Always Watching we may combine bounce with destroy spells.
About Ramp deck. A combination of Aligned Hedron Network and Blessed Reincarnation is the best solution against Ramp. In my latest build I removed the cards against Ramp, because the my meta was changed.
With all the bounce you took out do you ever run into issues where the opponent is able to keep less than 4 cards in hand? I know when I was originally playtesting the deck some of the hyper aggro decks could almost stay under that 4 card threshold even with me playing a bounce every single turn.
With all the bounce you took out do you ever run into issues where the opponent is able to keep less than 4 cards in hand? I know when I was originally playtesting the deck some of the hyper aggro decks could almost stay under that 4 card threshold even with me playing a bounce every single turn.
Oh sure. In this case, the main weapon of victory is Chandra, Flamecaller or, in rare ceases, we may play a playset of Fevered Visions (3 or 4 on the board).
In any case, it is important to draw cards by our Visions for counters, bounces and Chandras or Fall of the Titans.
I'm on a slightly different build that most guys here. I like the utility of Avacyn's Judgement coupled with a few discard outlets. I still bounce but more on the madness side. I'm also using Displacement Wave and Big Jace as 2 ofs in the place of Engulf. My sweeper of choice is Radiant Flames, as big mid range decks aren't even an issue when you can tempo them out. I also run a creature heavy side with some permission which always catches people off guard.
Wandering Furmole is, to me, the best source of damage in the deck. So Engulf just doesn't work for me.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Interesting, I have some of the same insight from my time with this deck, especially my love for the Fumarole, however I felt like Engulf was a must have because of the man-land.
EoT4 Engulf into a T5 Fumarole swing was a very common play in my games.
Mostly it came down to 90% of the deck drawing cards, keeping their hand full and board empty and making them think of Visions, then Fumarole sneaks in a few times to close.
My side is in flux at times but Stormchaser Mage and Exquisite Firecraft are almost always 4 of's in the side. I changed my board for tonight's FNM, but I normally go to the burn fast creatures deck.
I'll address the Graftstones before people start to say they are bad. I have between 8-10 tap land in my deck. This build is meant to play as many of my cards each turn as I can. I'm also an old school player so I'm used to using mana rocks.
Jori-En is likely to join the main deck soon. I can trigger her almost every turn once I get going.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Having played with and against the mono blue prison deck, I think we may want to take a page or two form their books too.
1) I'm starting to appreciate Hydrolash a lot.
2) We probably need some amount of Rise from the Tides
3) TITI is a good sideboard card and should probably come in.
I've kept a close eye on a lot of decks playing with Visions, and quite a few of them still get quite a few damage triggers from it even without the crazy bounce package we use. Maybe we should try to emulate the mono-U prison technique a bit more with a bit less bounce.
I dont think we're really supposed to include the new cards yet, but I have very high hopes that a certain blue 2 drop will go a LONG way. It gives us yet more targeted bounce, which can also be somewhat like a counter as well. The new 2 drop draw card may also be a good fit as well, however is a nonbo with Day's Undoing. I've also been looking a bit back into Crush with Tentacles. It's kinda silly to use one of our cards to surge it, but an 8/8 isnt anything to laugh at.
However, another hilarious spoil that I'm going to love to try out is Mind's Dilation. I could see this bad boy replacing Jace UoS, as he probably turns on a bit more removal than this does. It would be a hilarious card at the very least to test out. It will also probably make them more worried about that than Fevered Visions
This list just went 9-1 at the pro tour. If the OP doesn't pickup the thread I'll make a new one. This should be discussed.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I played a version of Matt Higgs's Blue Oyster Bolt deck (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33412_Brewing-With-Ratios.html) at FNM to a 3-3 finish. Not horrible for someone who hasn't played Standard in several months and made several awful misplays. Each round was win-a-pack, and I lucked into a Liliana after my last round opponent dropped.
My most favorite moment was watching my opponent sacrifice his board to bring out Ormendahl, Profane Prince while I had Unsubstantiate in hand. I almost felt bad for him.
TCGPLayer Mid currently prices this deck around $36, and that's including the lands. Take those out, and it's under $30. One of the best parts is that the deck basically survives rotation intact. Displacement Wave is the only Origins card in the deck.
It was actually quite a blast to play, and it took several people by surprise. I would have done a lot better if I hadn't misplayed several times, so the deck does have a lot of play to it. At no point did I ever feel overmatched by anything, including 4-Color Company.
I have some thoughts and suggestions regarding the deck.
Anticipate is absolutely necessary for the deck to function. I had two since I had 4 Take Inventory, but Anticipate was better for digging for Fevered Visions.
Unsubstantiate was amazing since it could (temporarily) counter a spell or return a creature. If it said nonland permanent, it would be busted beyond belief.
Resolved Planeswalkers were especially difficult to handle, so I feel that 2 Compelling Deterrence would be helpful to reset them. The instant speed would be nice as well.
I wanted some additional damage, so I added Stormchaser Mage to the main alongside the Curious Homunculous and Halimar Tidecaller. It was very effective and won me several games. It's a good blocker and attacker because of its prowess. But you sometimes need a good blocker on the ground to stop stuff from killing you. Hence, Thermo-Alchemist. It can get damage in regardless of attacking. Absolutely gross with two on board and an active Fevered Visions.
I added in 4 Wandering Fumarole for an additional attacker and something that dodges mass bounce effects. It was great to awaken a Fumarole and then use it as a 7/4 flying attacker with Tidecaller. It also dodges a lot of removal. Four were too many since coming in to play tapped sucked at times, so two may be correct.
An opponent used Contingency Plan to great effect at flipping his Curious Homunculous. It would also be excellent at setting up draws from Fevered Visions. I want to try two, but three may be the correct number.
I absolutely wanted more lands with the extra cards from Fevered Visions, so 22 lands. It may seem light, but none of the spells cost all that much, and the digging helps set up draws.
So, with that in mind, here's an updated list that I'm going to try --
I like the burn version way more than the bounce version. Collective Defiance kills walkers and also can clean up a picky creature in one card. Also why are you have info issues with walkers? Visions can kill them and Thermo usually eats right on through them.
In every version I have played Anticipate is the first card I cut. It's just never as useful as I hope it will be. Much the same as Take Inventory, the promise of the card never matches how it plays out in games.
One card I am never disappointed in is Nahiri's Wrath. Yes I know it's bad against Spell Queller. It is an absolute beating when played against BW control or even the emerge decks. It's so good in those matches that I'm willing to run it even in the CoCo matches.
If you have the means you should try Thing in the Ice. It's very good as is Bedlam Reveler.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
might be good in the new meta if there is less bant company. seems weak against dromoka's command killing the alchemist and reflecting mage bouncing thing in the ice.
I've been toying with a deck in this direction as well. I think it needs the additional oomph of some other mechanic; leveraging awaken though Halimar Tidecaller and Wandering Fumarole is an interesting idea. If you're going in that direction, have you considered Part the Waterveil as an alternate (e.g. sideboard) win con instead of Rise from the Tides? It's not as susceptible to Kozilek's Return, for example.
I've been contemplating a madness-oriented version of these decks to increase the value from Nahir's Wrath, Collective Defiance, and/or Lightning Axe. One option would be to use Jori En to build and keep card advantage instead of fevered visions, particularly against more aggressive decks. I'm still trying to figure out when and if using Broken Concentration as the discard makes sense, both from value perspective and a rules perspective; madness mechanics and valuation are both a little confusing.
If you look at the Pro Tour list you will see he has gone away from the bounce and into more of a damage based plan. There are a ton of ways in the list to survive D Command.
That list went 9-1 against a field that was 30% Bant coco. I think it's proven that the heavy blue version is inferior to the heavy red burn version. Being able to just end games with direct damage can't be ignored.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
If you look at the Pro Tour list you will see he has gone away from the bounce and into more of a damage based plan. There are a ton of ways in the list to survive D Command.
That list went 9-1 against a field that was 30% Bant coco. I think it's proven that the heavy blue version is inferior to the heavy red burn version. Being able to just end games with direct damage can't be ignored.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I've been toying with a deck in this direction as well. I think it needs the additional oomph of some other mechanic; leveraging awaken though Halimar Tidecaller and Wandering Fumarole is an interesting idea. If you're going in that direction, have you considered Part the Waterveil as an alternate (e.g. sideboard) win con instead of Rise from the Tides? It's not as susceptible to Kozilek's Return, for example.
I've been contemplating a madness-oriented version of these decks to increase the value from Nahir's Wrath, Collective Defiance, and/or Lightning Axe. One option would be to use Jori En to build and keep card advantage instead of fevered visions, particularly against more aggressive decks. I'm still trying to figure out when and if using Broken Concentration as the discard makes sense, both from value perspective and a rules perspective; madness mechanics and valuation are both a little confusing.
The Tidecallers are mostly there as additional card advantage with the Clutch of Currents and Scatter to the Winds. The awakened, flying lands were just gravy, especially with the Wandering Fumaroles. The Fumaroles were nice in that they dodged almost all of the bounce effects.
I actually never cast Rise from the Tides, so I can't really say how well it would have worked. I had it cast against me, but Displacement Wave shut it down rather hard. I'm probably going to replace Rise with something else since the zombies come in tapped, and it would be the most expensive card to cast.
If you look at the Pro Tour list you will see he has gone away from the bounce and into more of a damage based plan. There are a ton of ways in the list to survive D Command.
That list went 9-1 against a field that was 30% Bant coco. I think it's proven that the heavy blue version is inferior to the heavy red burn version. Being able to just end games with direct damage can't be ignored.
I'm not sure that one is strictly better than the other. The burn version is slanted towards controlling the board while working towards a giant Thing to clear everything away. It seems like Fevered Visions is more for card advantage rather than a kill condition, so it's not as necessary. It helps keep the pressure going.
The blue version stalls while using incremental damage to whittle the opponent down. Fevered Visions is a primary win condition, so having it is absolutely necessary since it damages the opponent and keeps up a steady stream of card advantage. Homunculous helps tremendously in that regard, allowing you to cast multiple spells while leaving mana up.
Maybe there's a way to combine elements of both lists. Hmmm, Fall of the Titans can do both at once, and it's easy to cast for surge cost in these lists. I think I'll try it in place of Grip of the Roil for more direct damage.
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Glad to post my update for our deck. I added Oath of Chandra and Kozilek's Return
In my opinion, Oath of Chandra is the best response to the Dromoka's Command. On the other hand we put 3 damage to the Sylvan Advocate and other creatures with toughness 3 or less or we put 3 damage and then finish off creatures by Chandra, Flamecaller. And finally, when any of our planeswalkers enters the battlefield, at the end of turn, we put additional damage to our opponent.
About Kozilek's Return. After testing, I realized one thing that when we play against aggressive decks we must destroy their creatures and not bounce their. However, in the case of Always Watching we may combine bounce with destroy spells.
About Ramp deck. A combination of Aligned Hedron Network and Blessed Reincarnation is the best solution against Ramp. In my latest build I removed the cards against Ramp, because the my meta was changed.
3 Day's Undoing
3 Oath of Chandra
2 Fall of the Titans
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
3 Anticipate
3 Disperse
3 Compelling Deterrence
4 Engulf the Shore
3 Negate
3 Horribly Awry
14 Island
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Shivan Reef
1 Mountain
3 Kozilek's Return
3 Displacement Wave
3 Rending Volley
3 Invasive Surgery
1 Void Shatter
1 Dispel
1 Negate
I was wondering thoughts on this deck list? I found the original shell in a MTGGoldfish article, and decided to work on it abit. I've recently returned to playing MTG so bit shaky on the meta besides what i have read.
Tapped out link
3x Catalog
2x Clash of Wills
4x Engulf the Shore
2x Fiery Impulse
2x Hydrolash
Sorcery (9)
1x Crush of Tentacles
4x Magmatic Insight
4x Tormenting Voice
4x Thing in the Ice
Enchantment (8)
4x Fevered Visions
4x Sphinx's Tutelage
Artifact (2)
2x Alhammarret's Archive
Land (24)
3x Evolving Wilds
4x Highland Lake
14x Island
1x Mountain
2x Wandering Fumarole
1x Clash of Wills
2x Fiery Impulse
2x Icefall Regent
3x Negate
2x Roast
4x Send to Sleep
1x Void Shatter
The deck focuses more on milling and drops some of the control as the original deck here. Combining Fevered Visions with Sphinx's Tutelage to set off a draw/mill cycle. Add in Magmatic Insight, Tormenting Voice] and Catalog can lead to big mill chains. The deck does better vs mono or small dip decks, but can play vs multi-coloured decks as well.
I feel the SB needs work. Against control it has some options, but, bit as many. The problem is I guess i don't know the meta of the story i will play in (as I have yet to buy the deck) so trying to make one as flexible as possible. below are cards i am considering. I feel the planeswalkers are too slow though. Startled Awake could be beneficial against control as it can be recurred from the graveyard if it is countered.
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
1x Displacement Wave
1x Fall of the Titans
1x Forgotten Creation
1x Geistblast
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1x Radiant Flames
1x Startled Awake
Have you tested this deck out yet?
Oath of Chandra is Excellent card! My regards!
Oh sure. In this case, the main weapon of victory is Chandra, Flamecaller or, in rare ceases, we may play a playset of Fevered Visions (3 or 4 on the board).
In any case, it is important to draw cards by our Visions for counters, bounces and Chandras or Fall of the Titans.
Wandering Furmole is, to me, the best source of damage in the deck. So Engulf just doesn't work for me.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
EoT4 Engulf into a T5 Fumarole swing was a very common play in my games.
Mostly it came down to 90% of the deck drawing cards, keeping their hand full and board empty and making them think of Visions, then Fumarole sneaks in a few times to close.
4 Fevered Visions
4 Corrupted Graftstone
4 Avycyn's Judgement
2 Fiery Temper
4 Tormenting Voice
2 Compelling Deterance
4 Just the Wind
4 Radiant Flames
2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Displacement Wave
1 Rise from the Tides
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Forbiding Ruins
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Swamps
5 Islands
6 Mountains
My side is in flux at times but Stormchaser Mage and Exquisite Firecraft are almost always 4 of's in the side. I changed my board for tonight's FNM, but I normally go to the burn fast creatures deck.
I'll address the Graftstones before people start to say they are bad. I have between 8-10 tap land in my deck. This build is meant to play as many of my cards each turn as I can. I'm also an old school player so I'm used to using mana rocks.
Jori-En is likely to join the main deck soon. I can trigger her almost every turn once I get going.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpman16/mono-blue-prison-with-martin-muller-2016-05-28
1) I'm starting to appreciate Hydrolash a lot.
2) We probably need some amount of Rise from the Tides
3) TITI is a good sideboard card and should probably come in.
I've kept a close eye on a lot of decks playing with Visions, and quite a few of them still get quite a few damage triggers from it even without the crazy bounce package we use. Maybe we should try to emulate the mono-U prison technique a bit more with a bit less bounce.
What do you think about new Eldritch Moon cards?:
Unsubstantiate
Chilling Grasp
and of course Summary Dismissal
However, another hilarious spoil that I'm going to love to try out is Mind's Dilation. I could see this bad boy replacing Jace UoS, as he probably turns on a bit more removal than this does. It would be a hilarious card at the very least to test out. It will also probably make them more worried about that than Fevered Visions
3 Thing in the Ice
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Tormenting Voice
4 Incendiary Flow
4 Collective Defiance
2 Dispel
2 Unsubstantiate
3 Fiery Impulse
2 Lightning Axe
4 Fiery Temper
4 Fevered Visions
4 Wandering Fumarole
4 Shivan Reef
3 Highland Lake
9 Mountain
3 Island
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Dispel
1 Fiery Impulse
3 Goldnight Castigator
2 Weaver of Lightning
1 Rending Volley
2 Negate
1 Spell Shrivel
2 Bedlam Reveler
2 Nahiri's Wrath[/d]
This list just went 9-1 at the pro tour. If the OP doesn't pickup the thread I'll make a new one. This should be discussed.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
My most favorite moment was watching my opponent sacrifice his board to bring out Ormendahl, Profane Prince while I had Unsubstantiate in hand. I almost felt bad for him.
TCGPLayer Mid currently prices this deck around $36, and that's including the lands. Take those out, and it's under $30. One of the best parts is that the deck basically survives rotation intact. Displacement Wave is the only Origins card in the deck.
It was actually quite a blast to play, and it took several people by surprise. I would have done a lot better if I hadn't misplayed several times, so the deck does have a lot of play to it. At no point did I ever feel overmatched by anything, including 4-Color Company.
I have some thoughts and suggestions regarding the deck.
So, with that in mind, here's an updated list that I'm going to try --
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Wandering Fumarole
5 Mountains
13 Islands
Creatures 10
4 Curious Homunculous
4 Thermo-Alchemist
2 Halimar Tidecaller
Spells 28
2 Contingency Plan
4 Anticipate
2 Grip of the Roil
2 Compelling Deterrence
4 Clutch of Currents
4 Unsubstantiate
4 Engulf the Shore
2 Scatter to the Winds
4 Fevered Visions
2 Displacement Wave
2 Rise from the Tides
2 Imprisoned in the Moon
4 Radiant Flames
4 Negate
1 Scatter to the Winds
Some additional cards to consider --
Let me know what you think.
The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.
In every version I have played Anticipate is the first card I cut. It's just never as useful as I hope it will be. Much the same as Take Inventory, the promise of the card never matches how it plays out in games.
One card I am never disappointed in is Nahiri's Wrath. Yes I know it's bad against Spell Queller. It is an absolute beating when played against BW control or even the emerge decks. It's so good in those matches that I'm willing to run it even in the CoCo matches.
If you have the means you should try Thing in the Ice. It's very good as is Bedlam Reveler.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I've been contemplating a madness-oriented version of these decks to increase the value from Nahir's Wrath, Collective Defiance, and/or Lightning Axe. One option would be to use Jori En to build and keep card advantage instead of fevered visions, particularly against more aggressive decks. I'm still trying to figure out when and if using Broken Concentration as the discard makes sense, both from value perspective and a rules perspective; madness mechanics and valuation are both a little confusing.
That list went 9-1 against a field that was 30% Bant coco. I think it's proven that the heavy blue version is inferior to the heavy red burn version. Being able to just end games with direct damage can't be ignored.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
That list went 9-1 against a field that was 30% Bant coco. I think it's proven that the heavy blue version is inferior to the heavy red burn version. Being able to just end games with direct damage can't be ignored.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
The Tidecallers are mostly there as additional card advantage with the Clutch of Currents and Scatter to the Winds. The awakened, flying lands were just gravy, especially with the Wandering Fumaroles. The Fumaroles were nice in that they dodged almost all of the bounce effects.
I actually never cast Rise from the Tides, so I can't really say how well it would have worked. I had it cast against me, but Displacement Wave shut it down rather hard. I'm probably going to replace Rise with something else since the zombies come in tapped, and it would be the most expensive card to cast.
I'm not sure that one is strictly better than the other. The burn version is slanted towards controlling the board while working towards a giant Thing to clear everything away. It seems like Fevered Visions is more for card advantage rather than a kill condition, so it's not as necessary. It helps keep the pressure going.
The blue version stalls while using incremental damage to whittle the opponent down. Fevered Visions is a primary win condition, so having it is absolutely necessary since it damages the opponent and keeps up a steady stream of card advantage. Homunculous helps tremendously in that regard, allowing you to cast multiple spells while leaving mana up.
Maybe there's a way to combine elements of both lists. Hmmm, Fall of the Titans can do both at once, and it's easy to cast for surge cost in these lists. I think I'll try it in place of Grip of the Roil for more direct damage.
The world is on fire
and you are here to stay and burn with me.