Looks great! I have to agree, Ultimate Price is dead whenever you see Devoid, and TKS/Smasher never left.
On the subject of GDD, running them is the main reason why I chose Read the Bones over Painful Truths. Scry is not bad, and as long as you're running Pulse and Kalitas, you can have a way to offset the life loss. The list in SCG was only running 1 GDD with 2 others on the side, and I understand why: you don't get benefit out of GDD by flashing back Truths or Radiant Flames and he was running 3 of each.
Mina and Denn with Tracker just seems like a match made in heaven: Tracker doesn't have trample, but MnD gives them trample WHILE making them huge. Basically if they don't have that kind of removal, they're toast. Seems pretty sweet.
I'm having second thoughts on Arlinn, thinking that she belongs with more creature-heavy builds that can have more advantage out of her + abilities. Having said that about her, though, I'm still absolutely sold into Mindwrack Demon, especially with Pulse/GDD/Den Protector recursion engines. So whatever build changes in the future, I will most certainly be running the full set regardless.
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So yeah, as Jundimastah pointed out, we have a Jund in the top 32 of this SCG, will post his decklist up there in a bit on main post.
Secondly, it seems our main concern for the time being is aggro, more specifically humans, as well as CoCo decks. This means for the early meta, boarding in 1-2 Radiant Flames, a Languish, and a few impulses isn't too bad. Roast may stay in my builds after all since it also hits all humans, most of the CoCo Package, and as well as the eldrazi.
@Trickster-kun, yeah, also main reason I go for the Scry the Bones over Painful Truths is the whole GDD and digging 4 deep is always nice(quality over quantity, imo).
Will update my deck ideas in front as well.
Also to update on my decks, I have found Lightning axe, albeit a 'cheap' spell too inefficient(2-for-1ing hurts) without a lot of madness enablers, or ways to 'abuse it' like the U/R Temp/Control build that made it to top 8 today. As well as Fiery Temper, as there's not enough convenient discard in the builds I brewed so far and its already hard casting Ruinous Path as is, don't need another RR card.
Ugin is going to get really bad once all the fatties are colourless. I sold all mine. Sell sell sell!
He's going to be absolutely rotten. Hangarback walker has already nerfed him quite significantly. I reckon he'll be $3 junk within 2 months of rotation
the scg open decklist has an atrocious manabase - I would never sleeve this deck up. 13 green sources, 12 red sources, 12 black sources is just nowhere near acceptable.
This is the list I've been playing. I started out with cards like Arlinn and Traverse, but I have cut them and not missed them. The deck is really only
"splashing" (I used the term lightly) red for a few cards.
"Lands early, creatures late". Gotta hand it to LSV, he really puts things in perspective.
So far, my testing with Delirium has been bittersweet. It's not like we can't take a hit or two from Mindwrack Demon while we're playing stuff like Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Pulse of Murasa, but the real issue is that, if you combine the recursion mechanics of Den Protector and Goblin Dark-Dwellers along with the rest of the deck's tools, you end up cutting out the delirium yourself in order to advance the game plan. Not that it's bad! It does mean you have to actively be mindful of the cards in your graveyard when you're toying with Delirium: it's very embarrassing to cast Traverse the Ulvenwald to search for a GDD and by the time to try to flash it back, you're stuck in its first mode...
It's even more embarrassing to have your opponent leave your Mindwrack alone and let you ping yourself all the time.
I'm going to toy around with Vessel of Nascency as a replacement to Oath of Nissa if I'm running Chandras as the only walkers, but I'm also gonnna try out Seasons Past as a singleton on the side. Someone in reddit pointed out how much of a mirror breaker it can be against other midrange decks, so I'm legitimately curious.
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This is key because the only decks imo that use it well are the ramp decks.or.if a tool box deck.comes along.
Most of the time your using den Protector and GDD to get back spells and muddle up delirium.
I think mina and denn are the future of the deck. She just makes the whole deck insane.
Combos well with Tracker and just overall works good with your advocates and if.your playing Gitrog gives him the evasion he needs.
Arlinn kord doesn't really have a place in these builds. She's good just not in a midrange/control shell she is better suited for aggressive midrange and aggro decks.
This is key because the only decks imo that use it well are the ramp decks.or.if a tool box deck.comes along.
Most of the time your using den Protector and GDD to get back spells and muddle up delirium.
I think mina and denn are the future of the deck. She just makes the whole deck insane.
Combos well with Tracker and just overall works good with your advocates and if.your playing Gitrog gives him the evasion he needs.
Arlinn kord doesn't really have a place in these builds. She's good just not in a midrange/control shell she is better suited for aggressive midrange and aggro decks.
how does a ramp deck use Traverse? Well, it's plain that I disagree with your notions on this subject matter, but I don't mean to hate on any decklists that don't play Traverse. Just some validation for those of us who have found success with the card.
This is key because the only decks imo that use it well are the ramp decks.or.if a tool box deck.comes along.
Most of the time your using den Protector and GDD to get back spells and muddle up delirium.
I think mina and denn are the future of the deck. She just makes the whole deck insane.
Combos well with Tracker and just overall works good with your advocates and if.your playing Gitrog gives him the evasion he needs.
Arlinn kord doesn't really have a place in these builds. She's good just not in a midrange/control shell she is better suited for aggressive midrange and aggro decks.
how does a ramp deck use Traverse? Well, it's plain that I disagree with your notions on this subject matter, but I don't mean to hate on any decklists that don't play Traverse. Just some validation for those of us who have found success with the card.
Ramp Decks use the card to grab wastes and enable ruin in their wake.
and later on they grab their threats, pretty straight forward.
straight forward isn't what comes to my mind when I think about how a ramp deck should go about enabling delirium.
EDIT: I don't see how using Traverse to fix your mana and grab threats (across 3 colours of mana) later on doesn't qualify as using the card "well" as described in the set review. your posts reek of bias.
I;m afraid to test it, i just feel like the card is weird. How good is gitrog?
You'll get advantage out of Gitrog even if he's only out for a single turn, especially with Drownyard Temple and Evolving Wilds. The problem is that he doesn't actively do anything when he first drops, so you just get blow out by Reflector or such if you can't seize the advantage. I think he shines better in straight G/B-- here's a sample list by Jeff Hoogland.
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Well most will probably play Hangarbacks or Hedron crawlers plus the play archive. The play vegetation and pilgrimage for sorcery. Most will play kozileks return main now. They play world breaker which can get a land in the yard. They play oath of nissa which can get am enchantment in the yard. Honestly they could possibly have delirium by turn 2 if they play evolving wilds.
T1 oath
T2 Crawler
T3 play another oath and a pilgrimage then t4 block with Crawler and now they have delirium.
They.can probably achieve it much easier than jund could which jund utilizes the graveyard to.recur spells with den Protector and GDD.
Another reason for traverse is to tutor a creature.
Why do we need to tutor a creature? Our threat count is higher than there's and none of our dudes have enough utility to matter and the wanting to tutor them.
Mast impactful play I could see is to tutor a den Protector to get back a walker or if you play a one of Abbey.
With ramp you literally are playing 4 World Breaker, 2 atarka, 1 ulamog with some playing a 1 of kozilek so the need for the tutor here is much higher.
Well most will probably play Hangarbacks or Hedron crawlers plus the play archive. The play vegetation and pilgrimage for sorcery. Most will play kozileks return main now. They play world breaker which can get a land in the yard. They play oath of nissa which can get am enchantment in the yard. Honestly they could possibly have delirium by turn 2 if they play evolving wilds.
T1 oath
T2 Crawler
T3 play another oath and a pilgrimage then t4 block with Crawler and now they have delirium.
They.can probably achieve it much easier than jund could which jund utilizes the graveyard to.recur spells with den Protector and GDD.
Another reason for traverse is to tutor a creature.
Why do we need to tutor a creature? Our threat count is higher than there's and none of our dudes have enough utility to matter and the wanting to tutor them.
Mast impactful play I could see is to tutor a den Protector to get back a walker or if you play a one of Abbey.
With ramp you literally are playing 4 World Breaker, 2 atarka, 1 ulamog with some playing a 1 of kozilek so the need for the tutor here is much higher.
while the creatures you would like to include in your Jund deck are unconditionally good, some creatures are still better than others given the board state and the amount of mana you have access to. some cards you also don't want to draw multiples of in your hand. Kalitas is a Legendary. Nissa is a legendary that has very diminishing returns. GDD and a threat like Atarka are slow and you don't want to clutter your hand with expensive spells - Traverse makes it that you virtually have access to 5+ copies of these cards without running that risk.
most of all the upside of Traverse is the added consistency, naturally. It lets you have a desired ratio of lands and creatures drawn, and it's very good at fixing your mana (oath doesn't come close).
these things add up to a very good effect, and what makes it great is that the opportunity cost is so slow. the card only costs one green mana to cast. If you read the article by LSV this is the important thing to take away.
I'm not saying you have to play Traverse, I'm only saying it makes sense for some lists to do so.
the hard part is turning on Delirium though. Playing Mindwrack works as it survives Languish but we already have Kalitas and/or Mina and Denn. I agree Traverse is very good, just not sure how to make it fit.
I played 4 best of 3's last night. Wins against: B/W Control, U/R TitI/Tutelage Control, and G/B/c Gitrog (Hoogland Build). Loss against: Esper Dragons
Esper Dragons was a very tough matchup. I took G1 relatively easily on the back of a double Sylvan Advocate beatdown start, curving into a Goblin Dark-Dwellers/Exquisite Firecraft burn-out. Hissing Quagmire w/Sylvan on 6 lands was critical in attacking through a Dragonlord Ojutai desperation block in the end.
Game 2 was a really rough grind. He had a ton of counterspells and countered all my attempts to Read the Bones. I failed to draw land 5 for awhile and lost a lot of tempo while he was free to Painful Truths multiple times. We traded a ton of removal/permission, but I finally was bested when he stole a Mindwrack Demon from me with a Dragonlord Silumgar. Game 3 I mulliganed to 6, kept a risky 1 land (Swamp) hand with a ton of hand attack, and failed to draw land 2 after my third draw It was very educational though and convinced me to drop Crumble to Dust in favor of Vessel of Malignity. I would have loved to be able to loop Vessel with Den Protector to cancel out all his CA from the Painful Truthsing. I also added 1 Pulse of Murasa so that I have another chance to get back a Den Protector or a GDD.
1 big add was 1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer. She was huge for me everytime she came up, helping me ramp to 5cmc, and sometimes flipping to generate value. I actually managed to ultimate her against G/B Gitrog to win G2, which was fun. I think she is a fantastic singleton addition to this deck and I wish there were some way I could add 1x more.
how has Kolaghan's Command been? I've been putting it in my deck since it was so good last standard and a powerhouse in Modern, but it just doesn't kill much. Hangarback doesn't see much play anymore with so much exiling, and two damage kills nothing really in the Bant Company decks.
Kolaghan's Command seems to vary from a subtle value play to insane. I mostly use it to rebuy Sylvan Advocate, Den Protector and Goblin Dark-Dwellers and force the opponent to discard. When they don't run a creature suite of 3 toughness or greater though, it becomes truly devastating and versatile. Hit a Hedron Archive with it and they are really hurting.
I would probably board it out completely against Bant Tempo, favoring discard spells, Exquisite Firecraft, and Ruinous Path/Sinister Concoction.
Sadly, have not had the good fortune to test against Bant tempo yet, but I have a hard time seeing it be a more difficult matchup for my deck than Esper Dragons. I am just dying to Pick the Brain with delirium and hit CoCo
Bant company is probably the only deck I side it out against.
Even if it doesn't kill something just returning a dude and making them discard is close to a 3 for 1 in of itself.(obviously thisnissa only a 3 for 1 if they removed the threat and you didn't have to discard it)
As far as the guy who lost to.esper dragons the biggest issue I seen is no pulse and k command package
I've never lost to any form of control last standard or even when I tested it this standard when I get den Protector and GDD with kcommand or pulse going. They have to expend ao.many resources just to stop this that by the time it's all said and done they can't deal with a chandra or a single threat when it sticks.
Yes I did- I used it to kill his first Dragonlord Ojutai, but I did not find the 2nd one and was unable to Den Protector/GDD it back due to not reaching 5 lands before he drew/setup a control lock. I had also boarded out my Sinister Concoctions, which was a mistake since it can hit at instant speed and is uncounterable outside of Stifle/Squelch type effects, which thankfully do not exist in this format. I am thinking that 2x Sinister Concotion and 2x To The Slaughter *should* be enough for Esper Dragons (along with 2x Ruinous Path for their walkers/Dlord Silumgar and 2x Infinite Obliteration for mega-hate fx), but I may be wrong. More testing is surely needed.
On the subject of GDD, running them is the main reason why I chose Read the Bones over Painful Truths. Scry is not bad, and as long as you're running Pulse and Kalitas, you can have a way to offset the life loss. The list in SCG was only running 1 GDD with 2 others on the side, and I understand why: you don't get benefit out of GDD by flashing back Truths or Radiant Flames and he was running 3 of each.
Mina and Denn with Tracker just seems like a match made in heaven: Tracker doesn't have trample, but MnD gives them trample WHILE making them huge. Basically if they don't have that kind of removal, they're toast. Seems pretty sweet.
I'm having second thoughts on Arlinn, thinking that she belongs with more creature-heavy builds that can have more advantage out of her + abilities. Having said that about her, though, I'm still absolutely sold into Mindwrack Demon, especially with Pulse/GDD/Den Protector recursion engines. So whatever build changes in the future, I will most certainly be running the full set regardless.
Standard: N G A W Y R A
Commander: G U B Damia
Secondly, it seems our main concern for the time being is aggro, more specifically humans, as well as CoCo decks. This means for the early meta, boarding in 1-2 Radiant Flames, a Languish, and a few impulses isn't too bad. Roast may stay in my builds after all since it also hits all humans, most of the CoCo Package, and as well as the eldrazi.
@Trickster-kun, yeah, also main reason I go for the Scry the Bones over Painful Truths is the whole GDD and digging 4 deep is always nice(quality over quantity, imo).
Will update my deck ideas in front as well.
Also to update on my decks, I have found Lightning axe, albeit a 'cheap' spell too inefficient(2-for-1ing hurts) without a lot of madness enablers, or ways to 'abuse it' like the U/R Temp/Control build that made it to top 8 today. As well as Fiery Temper, as there's not enough convenient discard in the builds I brewed so far and its already hard casting Ruinous Path as is, don't need another RR card.
Youtube Channel
3 Painful Truths
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 To the Slaughter
2 Fiery Impulse
1 Ultimate Price
1 Roast
2 Arlinn Kord
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Deathcap Cultivator
2 Sylvan Advocate
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Mindwrack Demon
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Dragonlord Atarka
4 Hissing Quagmire
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Forest
4 Cinder Glade
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Duress
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Conclave Naturalists
1 Roast
1 Gilt-Leaf Winnower
1 Tooth Collector
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Radiant Flames
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Virulent Plague
1 Ultimate Price
Youtube Channel
"splashing" (I used the term lightly) red for a few cards.
2 Foreboding Ruins
1 Game Trail
4 Smoldering Marsh
3 Hissing Quagmire
3 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Evolving Wilds
2 Cinder Glade
1 Llanowar Wastes
sorcery 8
4 Ruinous Path
2 Read the Bones
2 Languish
4 Oath of Nissa
creatures 15
4 Mindwrack Demon
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
4 Sylvan Advocate
4 Den Protector
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
instants 5
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Pulse of Murasa
planeswalkers 3
3 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Radiant Flames
2 Pick the Brain
2 Transgress the Mind
1 To the Slaughter
2 Duress
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Languish
1 Ultimate Price
1 Read the Bones
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
4 Game Trail
4 Forboding Ruins
2 Cinder Glade
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Murderous Compulsion
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 To the Slaughter
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Ultimate Price
2 Dead Weight
2 Sinister Concoction
4 Deathcap Cultivator
4 Sin Prodder
4 Mindwrack Demon
2 Woodland Wanderer
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
3 The Gitrog Monster
I like it a lot when LSV validates my opinions.
Youtube Channel
So far, my testing with Delirium has been bittersweet. It's not like we can't take a hit or two from Mindwrack Demon while we're playing stuff like Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Pulse of Murasa, but the real issue is that, if you combine the recursion mechanics of Den Protector and Goblin Dark-Dwellers along with the rest of the deck's tools, you end up cutting out the delirium yourself in order to advance the game plan. Not that it's bad! It does mean you have to actively be mindful of the cards in your graveyard when you're toying with Delirium: it's very embarrassing to cast Traverse the Ulvenwald to search for a GDD and by the time to try to flash it back, you're stuck in its first mode...
It's even more embarrassing to have your opponent leave your Mindwrack alone and let you ping yourself all the time.
I'm going to toy around with Vessel of Nascency as a replacement to Oath of Nissa if I'm running Chandras as the only walkers, but I'm also gonnna try out Seasons Past as a singleton on the side. Someone in reddit pointed out how much of a mirror breaker it can be against other midrange decks, so I'm legitimately curious.
Standard: N G A W Y R A
Commander: G U B Damia
This is key because the only decks imo that use it well are the ramp decks.or.if a tool box deck.comes along.
Most of the time your using den Protector and GDD to get back spells and muddle up delirium.
I think mina and denn are the future of the deck. She just makes the whole deck insane.
Combos well with Tracker and just overall works good with your advocates and if.your playing Gitrog gives him the evasion he needs.
Arlinn kord doesn't really have a place in these builds. She's good just not in a midrange/control shell she is better suited for aggressive midrange and aggro decks.
how does a ramp deck use Traverse? Well, it's plain that I disagree with your notions on this subject matter, but I don't mean to hate on any decklists that don't play Traverse. Just some validation for those of us who have found success with the card.
Youtube Channel
straight forward isn't what comes to my mind when I think about how a ramp deck should go about enabling delirium.
EDIT: I don't see how using Traverse to fix your mana and grab threats (across 3 colours of mana) later on doesn't qualify as using the card "well" as described in the set review. your posts reek of bias.
Youtube Channel
Yes i know it depends on the decklist. I'm a bit afraid of Mina & Den too though lol.
You'll get advantage out of Gitrog even if he's only out for a single turn, especially with Drownyard Temple and Evolving Wilds. The problem is that he doesn't actively do anything when he first drops, so you just get blow out by Reflector or such if you can't seize the advantage. I think he shines better in straight G/B-- here's a sample list by Jeff Hoogland.
Standard: N G A W Y R A
Commander: G U B Damia
T1 oath
T2 Crawler
T3 play another oath and a pilgrimage then t4 block with Crawler and now they have delirium.
They.can probably achieve it much easier than jund could which jund utilizes the graveyard to.recur spells with den Protector and GDD.
Another reason for traverse is to tutor a creature.
Why do we need to tutor a creature? Our threat count is higher than there's and none of our dudes have enough utility to matter and the wanting to tutor them.
Mast impactful play I could see is to tutor a den Protector to get back a walker or if you play a one of Abbey.
With ramp you literally are playing 4 World Breaker, 2 atarka, 1 ulamog with some playing a 1 of kozilek so the need for the tutor here is much higher.
while the creatures you would like to include in your Jund deck are unconditionally good, some creatures are still better than others given the board state and the amount of mana you have access to. some cards you also don't want to draw multiples of in your hand. Kalitas is a Legendary. Nissa is a legendary that has very diminishing returns. GDD and a threat like Atarka are slow and you don't want to clutter your hand with expensive spells - Traverse makes it that you virtually have access to 5+ copies of these cards without running that risk.
most of all the upside of Traverse is the added consistency, naturally. It lets you have a desired ratio of lands and creatures drawn, and it's very good at fixing your mana (oath doesn't come close).
these things add up to a very good effect, and what makes it great is that the opportunity cost is so slow. the card only costs one green mana to cast. If you read the article by LSV this is the important thing to take away.
I'm not saying you have to play Traverse, I'm only saying it makes sense for some lists to do so.
Youtube Channel
4 Sylvan Advocate
4 Den Protector
4 Mindwrack Demon
4 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
Instants (7):
4 Fiery Impulse
3 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries (9):
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Read the Bones
3 Ruinous Path
2 Sinister Concoction
Lands (25):
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Foreboding Ruins
3 Game Trail
2 Hissing Quagmire
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Cinder Glade
3 Mountain
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Infinite Obliteration
2 Pick the Brain
2 Kozilek's Return
2 To the Slaughter
2 Transgress the Mind
1 Virulent Plague
1 Read the Bones
1 Vessel of Malignity
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Pulse of Murasa
I played 4 best of 3's last night. Wins against: B/W Control, U/R TitI/Tutelage Control, and G/B/c Gitrog (Hoogland Build). Loss against: Esper Dragons
Esper Dragons was a very tough matchup. I took G1 relatively easily on the back of a double Sylvan Advocate beatdown start, curving into a Goblin Dark-Dwellers/Exquisite Firecraft burn-out. Hissing Quagmire w/Sylvan on 6 lands was critical in attacking through a Dragonlord Ojutai desperation block in the end.
Game 2 was a really rough grind. He had a ton of counterspells and countered all my attempts to Read the Bones. I failed to draw land 5 for awhile and lost a lot of tempo while he was free to Painful Truths multiple times. We traded a ton of removal/permission, but I finally was bested when he stole a Mindwrack Demon from me with a Dragonlord Silumgar. Game 3 I mulliganed to 6, kept a risky 1 land (Swamp) hand with a ton of hand attack, and failed to draw land 2 after my third draw It was very educational though and convinced me to drop Crumble to Dust in favor of Vessel of Malignity. I would have loved to be able to loop Vessel with Den Protector to cancel out all his CA from the Painful Truthsing. I also added 1 Pulse of Murasa so that I have another chance to get back a Den Protector or a GDD.
1 big add was 1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer. She was huge for me everytime she came up, helping me ramp to 5cmc, and sometimes flipping to generate value. I actually managed to ultimate her against G/B Gitrog to win G2, which was fun. I think she is a fantastic singleton addition to this deck and I wish there were some way I could add 1x more.
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
I would probably board it out completely against Bant Tempo, favoring discard spells, Exquisite Firecraft, and Ruinous Path/Sinister Concoction.
Sadly, have not had the good fortune to test against Bant tempo yet, but I have a hard time seeing it be a more difficult matchup for my deck than Esper Dragons. I am just dying to Pick the Brain with delirium and hit CoCo
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
Even if it doesn't kill something just returning a dude and making them discard is close to a 3 for 1 in of itself.(obviously thisnissa only a 3 for 1 if they removed the threat and you didn't have to discard it)
As far as the guy who lost to.esper dragons the biggest issue I seen is no pulse and k command package
I've never lost to any form of control last standard or even when I tested it this standard when I get den Protector and GDD with kcommand or pulse going. They have to expend ao.many resources just to stop this that by the time it's all said and done they can't deal with a chandra or a single threat when it sticks.
Yes I am that guy that lost a close match to Esper Dragons. I am running the full 4 Kolaghan's Command and a Pulse of Murasa.
Thanks for reading carefully. Cheers.
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
It was a misread on my part no need to be a dick.