- Mina and Denn, too cute? Without Tracker it doesn't do enough I feel
- Tireless Tracker, do we just run the full 4?
- Sin Prodder worth running for CA, or is losing out on lands not worth it?
@Jundimastah If you call somebody's deck out as being inferior and completely misread it, you risk looking a bit foolish.
Besides, a little sarcasm does not a dick make Can't we just agree to read and communicate better, for the glory of Jund?
On a serious note, I'd be down to test the mirror match.
I don't think mina and denn is to cute. I've won several test games with her and Gitrog out or advocate. Just the pure fact she gives your creatures evasion makes her good enough add on the fact she combos with Tracker and it's just pure icing
-Tireless Tracker is ok, but will get eaten alive by cheap burn decks and Languish decks. My opinion on this last standard SCG Open is that Fiery Impulse, Kolaghan's Command, and Languish were highly under-represented, something I doubt will happen in future events.
-Mina and Denn, Wildborn is cute for sure, but, it seems perhaps useful if you can play it and drop land 5 ahead of curve, which should enable T5 Chandra, Flamecaller, provided you found enough lands. It def has synergistic potential with The Gitrog Monster and Drownyard Temple.
-Sin Prodder: does nothing turn it comes down, dies to every removal in the format, weak to even 2 dmg wraiths, not a consistent source of CA, trades down in all blocking scenarios and, also in most attacking scenarios. Seems like a trap to me. I pulled a few and offloaded them already. Maybe could have a home in a heavy burn/hand attack R/B deck as a finisher, but, even then, seems like a tempo self-blowout waiting to happen. Just my opinion though.
Something to think about, but the pilot of that Jund list that placed T32 at the Open said he would cut Mina and Denn in favor of upping to 4 Tireless Trackers.
Here's a Jund Aggro deck I've been toying with. It's been very explosive in testing and has a lot of card advantage. I'm just having trouble with the removal suite and maybe trying to find a source of lifelink.
SB is still in testing. Reflector Mage is hard to kill with any of my removal, as are fliers like Archangel of Tithes. Not sure if I just need to add some Ruinous Path and take the tempo loss, or that I'm so aggressive I don't need to worry about some of those cards.
Has anyone considered splashing white for Anguished Unmaking, Sorin, Declartion in Stone, and Shambling Vent?
We no longer have the fetchlands/battlelands synergy of BFZ standard, which means 4-color decks are really hard on the mana base (in my testing, even 3 colors is hard on the mana base).
Also, White is clearly overpowered in the current standard. Having a deck that does not run Declaration in stone makes this Jund deck interesting.
I've played out about 200 sample hands to see if a Jund deck was even possible with the current lands available. I immediately found that the mana worked smoothly every time I could cast Traverse on Turn 1. Nearly any hand -- no matter how ugly the mana looked in the opening 7 -- played out perfectly if it started with an untapped green and a Traverse on Turn 1. Grab the correct basic and you can either hold the land in hand to allow your shadow-lands to enter untapped, or put it on the table to let battle-lands enter untapped, as needed.
Unless there's some secret formula for perfect on-curve three-color mana in this format that nobody has found yet -- I've looked, and I doubt it -- Traverse is the ONLY way I would even consider playing it. Maybe a control deck can suffer more tapped lands, but a midrange deck needs to interact on curve and early, the removal spells are not so cheap in this format that you can afford to putz around.
I started with a set of Traverse almost on accident because I wanted proactive sorceries I could play on Turn 1 to enable Corrupted Grafstone. I've since cut back on Grafstones after running the sample hands, that card might be a bust, but the set of Traverse is the glue for this deck, I'm sure of it.
I've played out about 200 sample hands to see if a Jund deck was even possible with the current lands available. I immediately found that the mana worked smoothly every time I could cast Traverse on Turn 1. Nearly any hand -- no matter how ugly the mana looked in the opening 7 -- played out perfectly if it started with an untapped green and a Traverse on Turn 1. Grab the correct basic and you can either hold the land in hand to allow your shadow-lands to enter untapped, or put it on the table to let battle-lands enter untapped, as needed.
Unless there's some secret formula for perfect on-curve three-color mana in this format that nobody has found yet -- I've looked, and I doubt it -- Traverse is the ONLY way I would even consider playing it. Maybe a control deck can suffer more tapped lands, but a midrange deck needs to interact on curve and early, the removal spells are not so cheap in this format that you can afford to putz around.
I started with a set of Traverse almost on accident because I wanted proactive sorceries I could play on Turn 1 to enable Corrupted Grafstone. I've since cut back on Grafstones after running the sample hands, that card might be a bust, but the set of Traverse is the glue for this deck, I'm sure of it.
One of the main reasons I started working on jund was bc of traverse. As I decided what I wanted to do with the deck I slowly cut back on traverse and now I am at zero. The card can be very powerful, but I don't think it is necessary if your third color is a splash that you won't need until late. I do think you can build your deck in a way that really takes advantage of traverse and if you are playing it you should do so. I don't think a one mana search for a land card is good enough, but the tutor ability is clearly very good.
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"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Unless there's some secret formula for perfect on-curve three-color mana in this format that nobody has found yet -- I've looked, and I doubt it -- Traverse is the ONLY way I would even consider playing it.
I like Traverse the Ulvenwald, but I worry that it dilutes your threat density.
Yes it tutors later on, but to make room for it, you need to cut several other needed tools.
I would like to find room for it as a 2x of maybe, but I don't know where I would cut for it.
The mana base for shards is good enough for 3 color without it- just look at what Jim Davis did this past weekend- Traverse-less Bant Company... 1st Place...
Why no love for Woodland Wanderer? It survives Languish and Chandra, attacks through TKS and trades with Smasher, plus it plays offense and defense and trample is great and attacking Planeswalkers.
I know it doesn't offer any CA, but we do need some beaters. I've been playing 2 Kalitas/3 Wanderer in my 4CMC slot.
Unless there's some secret formula for perfect on-curve three-color mana in this format that nobody has found yet -- I've looked, and I doubt it -- Traverse is the ONLY way I would even consider playing it.
I like Traverse the Ulvenwald, but I worry that it dilutes your threat density.
Yes it tutors later on, but to make room for it, you need to cut several other needed tools.
I would like to find room for it as a 2x of maybe, but I don't know where I would cut for it.
The mana base for shards is good enough for 3 color without it- just look at what Jim Davis did this past weekend- Traverse-less Bant Company... 1st Place...
I did look at that one of course, I was scouring results for anything with 3 colors to see if a better solution had been reached. I do not believe Jund can work with the color-shifted analogue of that Bant manabase. He's riding two advantages: 1) CoCo instantly repairs his board state in turn 4 even if he stumbled with his mama curve prior to that, and to a lesser extent 2) Jace helps him find the right lands. If Jund had actual Huntmaster for a 4 drop to repair the board and Thragtusk to follow, a couple early tap lands isn't fatal. But none of the 4 drops now have that kind of board presence, so early interaction on 2 and 3 is necessary and there's no wiggle room with the current crop of clunky removal spells available.
If Traverse isn't good enough, then Jund is probably unplayable IMO. If I weren't playing Traverse I think I'd have to hope that Dead Weight, Fiery Impulse and Ultimate Price are all amazing because good luck ever casting any other kill spell on the turn you would need it.
Unless there's some secret formula for perfect on-curve three-color mana in this format that nobody has found yet -- I've looked, and I doubt it -- Traverse is the ONLY way I would even consider playing it.
I like Traverse the Ulvenwald, but I worry that it dilutes your threat density.
Yes it tutors later on, but to make room for it, you need to cut several other needed tools.
I would like to find room for it as a 2x of maybe, but I don't know where I would cut for it.
The mana base for shards is good enough for 3 color without it- just look at what Jim Davis did this past weekend- Traverse-less Bant Company... 1st Place...
I did look at that one of course, I was scouring results for anything with 3 colors to see if a better solution had been reached. I do not believe Jund can work with the color-shifted analogue of that Bant manabase. He's riding two advantages: 1) CoCo instantly repairs his board state in turn 4 even if he stumbled with his mama curve prior to that, and to a lesser extent 2) Jace helps him find the right lands. If Jund had actual Huntmaster for a 4 drop to repair the board and Thragtusk to follow, a couple early tap lands isn't fatal. But none of the 4 drops now have that kind of board presence, so early interaction on 2 and 3 is necessary and there's no wiggle room with the current crop of clunky removal spells available.
If Traverse isn't good enough, then Jund is probably unplayable IMO. If I weren't playing Traverse I think I'd have to hope that Dead Weight, Fiery Impulse and Ultimate Price are all amazing because good luck ever casting any other kill spell on the turn you would need it.
mainboard radiant flames and languish help a lot there
I did look at that one of course, I was scouring results for anything with 3 colors to see if a better solution had been reached. I do not believe Jund can work with the color-shifted analogue of that Bant manabase. He's riding two advantages: 1) CoCo instantly repairs his board state in turn 4 even if he stumbled with his mama curve prior to that, and to a lesser extent 2) Jace helps him find the right lands. If Jund had actual Huntmaster for a 4 drop to repair the board and Thragtusk to follow, a couple early tap lands isn't fatal. But none of the 4 drops now have that kind of board presence, so early interaction on 2 and 3 is necessary and there's no wiggle room with the current crop of clunky removal spells available.
If Traverse isn't good enough, then Jund is probably unplayable IMO. If I weren't playing Traverse I think I'd have to hope that Dead Weight, Fiery Impulse and Ultimate Price are all amazing because good luck ever casting any other kill spell on the turn you would need it.
Jund is totally playable. Many of us on this thread have been testing it to very good result!
In fact, the only matchup I am really worried about is Esper Dragons (and maybe G/R Ramp), but that also is a list that is a problem for all archetypes, not just us. Sinister Concoction is much better than people realize. Fiery Impulse is still excellent at killing Jace T2. I don't see how we are so behind on tempo all the time, especially since we dictate the beats with Sylvan Advocate.
Hi all Darryl Donaldson here, played the Jund deck that I piloted to 22nd finish this past weekend at the Open. Tireless Tracker is one of the best cards in the deck, cut the Mina and Denn (which were very good over the weekend but not needed) for 2 more Trackers which has been testing great. Arlinn is amazing in the deck or at least has been for me making a token and flipping to kill a creature the next turn did a lot of work. I had no problem with Jace and tested a lot of against Company decks with were basically lopsided games in my favor. Sin Prodder was bad in testing as well. I plan to keep playing this deck until someone can find an answer to it, the losses I took were due to lack of drawing enough removal which is part of the game not because their deck was better.
Hi all Darryl Donaldson here, played the Jund deck that I piloted to 22nd finish this past weekend at the Open. Tireless Tracker is one of the best cards in the deck, cut the Mina and Denn (which were very good over the weekend but not needed) for 2 more Trackers which has been testing great. Arlinn is amazing in the deck or at least has been for me making a token and flipping to kill a creature the next turn did a lot of work. I had no problem with Jace and tested a lot of against Company decks with were basically lopsided games in my favor. Sin Prodder was bad in testing as well. I plan to keep playing this deck until someone can find an answer to it, the losses I took were due to lack of drawing enough removal which is part of the game not because their deck was better.
Thanks for replying here Darryl! We were all really glad to see your finish.
I have a few questions if you don't mind-
1) Why no Fiery Impulse? Do you wish you had it?
2) Were you satisfied with your land base?
3) What were your tricky matchups?
Clip wings is probably going to be our go to sideboard card for the profane prince, ojutai and to a lesser extent avacyn. This is one of those decks that we may concede game 1 to very frequently but after boards adding in virulent plague, clip wings, maybe crumble to dust(Worked for me) and a more aggressive discard package and we become favored games 2 and 3.
I think Darryl finishing in the top 25 shows that there is room for jund in this meta. Great job! I use foul-tongue invocation in the main and clip wings in the sideboard for westvale. I am running a lot of removal and dragons to back up foul-tongue
not too many decks are running Secure in the mainboard. I don't feel we should be changing the mainboard any to deal with it. We have so much removal that Westvale shouldn't be a problem game 1.
Dragonlord Ojutai with vigilance is a problem for us G1, but I don't think any deck can really beat that.
Hey Darryl, what do you think about Mindwrack Demon? I first tested using Mina and Denn but later found out that Mindwrack was much better. Any tips on this?
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"don't be disrespectful to others. also, you're a dick".
let me just grab my popcorn here
Youtube Channel
A proper response would have been
"Well I have the full set of commands and a pulse in the sideboard"
In which I would have went back to double checked myself and corrected my statement.
Despite that this clearly got off topic.
- Mina and Denn, too cute? Without Tracker it doesn't do enough I feel
- Tireless Tracker, do we just run the full 4?
- Sin Prodder worth running for CA, or is losing out on lands not worth it?
Besides, a little sarcasm does not a dick make Can't we just agree to read and communicate better, for the glory of Jund?
On a serious note, I'd be down to test the mirror match.
There are clearly a couple Jund midrange strategies going around. One seems to be based around The Gitrog Monster and Mina and Denn, Wildborn, and the other, around Goblin Dark-Dwellers. There may be others.
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
-Mina and Denn, Wildborn is cute for sure, but, it seems perhaps useful if you can play it and drop land 5 ahead of curve, which should enable T5 Chandra, Flamecaller, provided you found enough lands. It def has synergistic potential with The Gitrog Monster and Drownyard Temple.
-Sin Prodder: does nothing turn it comes down, dies to every removal in the format, weak to even 2 dmg wraiths, not a consistent source of CA, trades down in all blocking scenarios and, also in most attacking scenarios. Seems like a trap to me. I pulled a few and offloaded them already. Maybe could have a home in a heavy burn/hand attack R/B deck as a finisher, but, even then, seems like a tempo self-blowout waiting to happen. Just my opinion though.
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
4 Smoldering Marsh
3 Hissing Quagmire
1 Llanowar Wastes
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Foreboding Ruins
3 Cinder Glade
4 Sylvan Advocate
2 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Olivia, Mobilized for War
2 Sin Prodder
3 Woodland Wanderer
1 Surrak, the Hunt Caller
4 Painful Truths
2 Ultimate Price
2 Roast
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Chandra's Ignition
SB is still in testing. Reflector Mage is hard to kill with any of my removal, as are fliers like Archangel of Tithes. Not sure if I just need to add some Ruinous Path and take the tempo loss, or that I'm so aggressive I don't need to worry about some of those cards.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=333582
We no longer have the fetchlands/battlelands synergy of BFZ standard, which means 4-color decks are really hard on the mana base (in my testing, even 3 colors is hard on the mana base).
Also, White is clearly overpowered in the current standard. Having a deck that does not run Declaration in stone makes this Jund deck interesting.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Unless there's some secret formula for perfect on-curve three-color mana in this format that nobody has found yet -- I've looked, and I doubt it -- Traverse is the ONLY way I would even consider playing it. Maybe a control deck can suffer more tapped lands, but a midrange deck needs to interact on curve and early, the removal spells are not so cheap in this format that you can afford to putz around.
I started with a set of Traverse almost on accident because I wanted proactive sorceries I could play on Turn 1 to enable Corrupted Grafstone. I've since cut back on Grafstones after running the sample hands, that card might be a bust, but the set of Traverse is the glue for this deck, I'm sure of it.
One of the main reasons I started working on jund was bc of traverse. As I decided what I wanted to do with the deck I slowly cut back on traverse and now I am at zero. The card can be very powerful, but I don't think it is necessary if your third color is a splash that you won't need until late. I do think you can build your deck in a way that really takes advantage of traverse and if you are playing it you should do so. I don't think a one mana search for a land card is good enough, but the tutor ability is clearly very good.
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
I like Traverse the Ulvenwald, but I worry that it dilutes your threat density.
Yes it tutors later on, but to make room for it, you need to cut several other needed tools.
I would like to find room for it as a 2x of maybe, but I don't know where I would cut for it.
The mana base for shards is good enough for 3 color without it- just look at what Jim Davis did this past weekend- Traverse-less Bant Company... 1st Place...
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
I know it doesn't offer any CA, but we do need some beaters. I've been playing 2 Kalitas/3 Wanderer in my 4CMC slot.
I did look at that one of course, I was scouring results for anything with 3 colors to see if a better solution had been reached. I do not believe Jund can work with the color-shifted analogue of that Bant manabase. He's riding two advantages: 1) CoCo instantly repairs his board state in turn 4 even if he stumbled with his mama curve prior to that, and to a lesser extent 2) Jace helps him find the right lands. If Jund had actual Huntmaster for a 4 drop to repair the board and Thragtusk to follow, a couple early tap lands isn't fatal. But none of the 4 drops now have that kind of board presence, so early interaction on 2 and 3 is necessary and there's no wiggle room with the current crop of clunky removal spells available.
If Traverse isn't good enough, then Jund is probably unplayable IMO. If I weren't playing Traverse I think I'd have to hope that Dead Weight, Fiery Impulse and Ultimate Price are all amazing because good luck ever casting any other kill spell on the turn you would need it.
mainboard radiant flames and languish help a lot there
Jund is totally playable. Many of us on this thread have been testing it to very good result!
In fact, the only matchup I am really worried about is Esper Dragons (and maybe G/R Ramp), but that also is a list that is a problem for all archetypes, not just us. Sinister Concoction is much better than people realize. Fiery Impulse is still excellent at killing Jace T2. I don't see how we are so behind on tempo all the time, especially since we dictate the beats with Sylvan Advocate.
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
Thanks for replying here Darryl! We were all really glad to see your finish.
I have a few questions if you don't mind-
1) Why no Fiery Impulse? Do you wish you had it?
2) Were you satisfied with your land base?
3) What were your tricky matchups?
EDH: UBRJeleva | GURSurrak
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Dragonlord Ojutai with vigilance is a problem for us G1, but I don't think any deck can really beat that.