The exile enchantments are amazing when nobody is playing Dromoka's Command. Even if they were I'm using enough of it that one inevitably gets used on a HBW, token, or other card that I wouldn't mind bringing back.
Although he performed well 4 Bearer of Silence is probably to many 2-3 would be better.
I really like that control deck above...although imo -1 Gideon +1 Sorin (he's THAT good) imo...keen to get back to the LGS for some testing!!!
I am partial to Ob coming down earlier but perhaps Sorin is the right swap. Also not convinced by Descend, the exile seems rarely needed and Delirium rarely triggers. Plus more Declaration before Silkwraps. I don't know about running Ruinous Path and Stasis Snare. Does U.Price hit consistently enough that it's worth running over Grasp of Darkness not sure what Grasp misses that U.Price doesn't. The double black leads me to want to cut the double white spells but maybe Snare is that good that you just go for it.
I'm not sure what that removal package in the board is trying to hit... Maybe you keep Quarantine Field out of it, but the risk seems too risky for me.
-1 Quarantine Field
-1 Silkwrap
-1 Stasis Snare
-1 Ultimate Price
-1 Declaration
Personally I'm a fan of Descend over outburst at this stage in the meta, way too many sneaky avacyns flying about...
Biggest issue with grasp over price is only if their stuff gets too big via Thalia's lieutenant, always watching etc, other than that 1B is easier than BB I suppose? Swapping 1 for 1 is probably fairly solid though.
Path and snare I haven't played with yet in this meta, although path could shine in a drawn out game, awakening a vent etc (and planeswalker removal is always nice with chandras and sorins around)
I'm actually running 1 Linvala main just as a late game bomb if needed, 2 Avs SB etc....will try to post a deck list when I get home tonight
Hello everyone!
I mostly play Modern (I've been out of standard since RTR/THS), but I need to branch back out into other formats because of the way the monthly QP tournaments are structured on magic online
I ran the following list last night at a modern event:
I went 2-1 beating Jund (nissa, chandra, dark dwellers, removal, discard etc) and RG Werewolves, losing to ramp.
I got stuck on lands vs ramp and then the chain of land destruction started to happen and I died with all of the answers in my hand. I think I need to find a way to disrupt their hand better rather than try to kill the stuff after the fact.
It seems like, from the SCG Open, there are a few popular variants floating around this thread that didn't make appearances, including what I've been hoping to play but am now having second thoughts about. The lists that attempt to split between planeswalkers and high value creatures (Kalitas, Avacyn, Linvala) might not work, unless nobody brought them to the Open. It seems like, in general, Kalitas didn't get played much. It also seems like Avacyn is very good but actually didn't get played much at all in BW builds.
Other than the Eldrazi variant (which I feel is completely different from this thread), it seems like there are two directions to go with this deck:
1. All-in on the tokens. 4x Gideon, 4x Hangarback Walker, 4x Secure the Wastes, 2-4 Westvale Abbey.
2. All-in on planeswalker-control. At least 2 each of Gideon, Sorin, and Ob Nixilis. No creatures, other than the exception below, probably also play Oath of Gideon.
It seems like there is high value in playing Declaration of Stone, Silkwrap, and Transgress the Mind in combination with Wasteland Strangler. Does it fit into either strategy? I'm not sure. If you're playing creatureless, it makes sense to run sweepers like Languish or Flaying Tendrils, both of which kill Wasteland Strangler, but it should also be easy enough to play the sweeper either before it, or after it has already accomplished its 2-for-1 trade.
Also, I think you may be able to mix the two options I mention (but maybe not, I'm not sure), but I think it's pretty clear that the way forward likely includes 0 Kalitas, 0 Avacyn, and 0 Linvala.
It seems like, from the SCG Open, there are a few popular variants floating around this thread that didn't make appearances, including what I've been hoping to play but am now having second thoughts about. The lists that attempt to split between planeswalkers and high value creatures (Kalitas, Avacyn, Linvala) might not work, unless nobody brought them to the Open. It seems like, in general, Kalitas didn't get played much. It also seems like Avacyn is very good but actually didn't get played much at all in BW builds.
Other than the Eldrazi variant (which I feel is completely different from this thread), it seems like there are two directions to go with this deck:
1. All-in on the tokens. 4x Gideon, 4x Hangarback Walker, 4x Secure the Wastes, 2-4 Westvale Abbey.
2. All-in on planeswalker-control. At least 2 each of Gideon, Sorin, and Ob Nixilis. No creatures, other than the exception below, probably also play Oath of Gideon.
It seems like there is high value in playing Declaration of Stone, Silkwrap, and Transgress the Mind in combination with Wasteland Strangler. Does it fit into either strategy? I'm not sure. If you're playing creatureless, it makes sense to run sweepers like Languish or Flaying Tendrils, both of which kill Wasteland Strangler, but it should also be easy enough to play the sweeper either before it, or after it has already accomplished its 2-for-1 trade.
Also, I think you may be able to mix the two options I mention (but maybe not, I'm not sure), but I think it's pretty clear that the way forward likely includes 0 Kalitas, 0 Avacyn, and 0 Linvala.
The reason Kalitas wasn't played much is the double black when u want her turn 4. Most of the lists were white with black splash, so kalitas just doesn't have enough of an impact with her mana cost. Avacyn has always been a sideboard card for b/W control, or at least it should be....she doesnt bring anything to a boardstate with minimal creatures. I think B/W lists like the ones in this thread will pop up more and more, the open was just a terrible place for control so early into the rotation.
Both the midrange and control lists are great right now, but control will get better imo. Ive been running this with great result:
Odric, Lunarch Marshal is a powerhouse. every game I at least get some variation of a indestructible, lifelink, flying, deathtouch, first strike, vigilance whenever he is out. I usually board out Kalitas and Lantern scout for another ob nixilis and the 4th Declaration whenever I dont need Lifelink - also the point I was mentioning above, kalitas is kinda funny with the mana sometimes. I realise this is a midrange deck, and I would rather play straight control, but this has been working till the meta shakes out.
It seems like, from the SCG Open, there are a few popular variants floating around this thread that didn't make appearances, including what I've been hoping to play but am now having second thoughts about. The lists that attempt to split between planeswalkers and high value creatures (Kalitas, Avacyn, Linvala) might not work, unless nobody brought them to the Open. It seems like, in general, Kalitas didn't get played much. It also seems like Avacyn is very good but actually didn't get played much at all in BW builds.
Other than the Eldrazi variant (which I feel is completely different from this thread), it seems like there are two directions to go with this deck:
1. All-in on the tokens. 4x Gideon, 4x Hangarback Walker, 4x Secure the Wastes, 2-4 Westvale Abbey.
2. All-in on planeswalker-control. At least 2 each of Gideon, Sorin, and Ob Nixilis. No creatures, other than the exception below, probably also play Oath of Gideon.
It seems like there is high value in playing Declaration of Stone, Silkwrap, and Transgress the Mind in combination with Wasteland Strangler. Does it fit into either strategy? I'm not sure. If you're playing creatureless, it makes sense to run sweepers like Languish or Flaying Tendrils, both of which kill Wasteland Strangler, but it should also be easy enough to play the sweeper either before it, or after it has already accomplished its 2-for-1 trade.
Also, I think you may be able to mix the two options I mention (but maybe not, I'm not sure), but I think it's pretty clear that the way forward likely includes 0 Kalitas, 0 Avacyn, and 0 Linvala.
Only one list did not feature Avacyn and that was the 30th place all planeswalkers, no creatures list, which didn't even run Oath. Your predictions and analysis completely ignore the main BW midrange list that is built around Wasteland Strangler and other value creatures. No list featured 4 Gideon, 4 Hangarback, and 4 Secure. The closest you have to that is 4 Hangar, 4 Gideon, 3 Secure.
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Question: Why don't we run TKS? It's powerful discard while also giving us a decent 4/4 body. I'm just trying to explore options to give us better matchups against other Eldrazi decks and ramp decks that we're poor against.
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Standard Decks:
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
Question: Why don't we run TKS? It's powerful discard while also giving us a decent 4/4 body. I'm just trying to explore options to give us better matchups against other Eldrazi decks and ramp decks that we're poor against.
Question of 4 drops, I suppose.
I'm on 3 Gideon, 3 Kalitas.
3 Languish in the main.
Question: Why don't we run TKS? It's powerful discard while also giving us a decent 4/4 body. I'm just trying to explore options to give us better matchups against other Eldrazi decks and ramp decks that we're poor against.
Running TKS works extremely well, especially with Eldrazi Displacer. The fact is...there is no "best list" yet. There are so many options with black and white atm.
Question: Why don't we run TKS? It's powerful discard while also giving us a decent 4/4 body. I'm just trying to explore options to give us better matchups against other Eldrazi decks and ramp decks that we're poor against.
Question: Why don't we run TKS? It's powerful discard while also giving us a decent 4/4 body. I'm just trying to explore options to give us better matchups against other Eldrazi decks and ramp decks that we're poor against.
TKS puts the deck in a much more midrange than I want to be playing and I think is an entirely separate deck than BW Control.
As long as they are running Plainswalkers and a removal package they are too similar for a separate thread though imo. Sure they are different, but not THAT different.
Hi guys. Have been testing Eepr dragons and BW for while and was happy to see this weekend's results. While non of the decks I am testing won there are some solid lists.
A couple of questions:
1. Are any of the exiling enchantments good now? Bant company will be tremendously popular and their 4x dromoka's commands will be backbreaking. What about adding more grasp of darkness, declaration into stone, etc.? (and modify the mana base to accomodate)
2. Why the knight of the white orchid over the hangarback ? IS it just the land? In my list I am running 26 lands. By reducing the need for WW I can now play grasp of darkness and even a kalitas and 2 languished consistently MD.
Regarding Ayli..I think he is good as can lead to sac hangarback in response to an exile effect, much needed life gain, has deathtouch to trade with any creature in the bant matchup, and can be a sac outlet to flip Avacyn. Anyway, here is my list. It is more controllish. Any comments/ideas/critiques are welcomed.
Avacyn has always been a sideboard card for b/W control, or at least it should be....she doesnt bring anything to a boardstate with minimal creatures.
I guess I somewhat disagree with this considering all of the token generation a control build has. I agree she has more value in a creature heavy build, but flashing in Archangel Avacyn to give all of your tokens the ability to block and survive, while leaving your opponent vulnerable for an attack next turn is great imo. I think she sits nice as a 2 of in the main for control shells.
Avacyn has always been a sideboard card for b/W control, or at least it should be....she doesnt bring anything to a boardstate with minimal creatures.
I guess I somewhat disagree with this considering all of the token generation a control build has. I agree she has more value in a creature heavy build, but flashing in Archangel Avacyn to give all of your tokens the ability to block and survive, while leaving your opponent vulnerable for an attack next turn is great imo. I think she sits nice as a 2 of in the main for control shells.
Seems solid. I did some testing last night vs. bant company... man that deck is problematic. It requires some careful play. Any tips for this one? Would the midrange or the control versions of BW be better suited to deal with it ?
The only thing I would offer is that Stasis Snare and silk wrap are pretty risky right now.
If Bant coco is a concern--keep in mind they main deck Dromokas' command.
RG Ramp is another deck I'm finding problematic at times, and having World Breaker blow up the Stasis Snare that's exiling a fatty with an ETB Trigger is disastrous.
I'm probably going to be splitting my Esper Control deck into a UR Control deck (Similar to Todd's) and a WB Control deck. Here's what I have so far for the WB:
I'm going pseudo-creatureless now because I expect a ton of creature removal given the success of W/x Humans and Collected Company decks. There actually are creatures in the deck but ideally it becomes impossible for my opponent to 1-for-1 them.
Thoughts: Wasteland Strangler: I play this for the synergy with Declaration in Stone and Silkwrap (and out of the sideboard, with Transgress the Mind). In testing it's somewhat reliable. Wasteland Strangler can kill something and then sit to either eat a removal spell or trade in combat, either way achieving the 2-for-1 deal. This also helps alleviate some of the worries playing Silkwrap in a format with Dromoka's Command.
No maindeck Anguished Unmaking: The format is currently full of Collected Company (meaning creatures that are 3 cmc or less) and W/x Humans (most of these are 1-2 cmc). That puts removal spells that cost 3 mana in a bad position, forcing you to lose tempo with these decks. This card and Ruinous Path are both present in the sideboard to handle other decks where they are important (mirror match, decks with Jace, Eldrazi ramp).
Two primary win conditions: Win with planeswalkers (typically this includes lots of tokens and a Gideon emblem or two), or win with Westvale Abbey.
No Grasp of Darkness: I'm not particularly against this card, I just couldn't slot it. I need a possibility of T1 removal to handle the Humans decks that have many 1-drops, so that's why Dead Weight is in. The 2-cmc removal spells I have require only a single W or single B which makes them more reliably castable than Grasp of Darkness. Still, I could be convinced to put it somewhere. I know it's generally regarded as one of the better removal spells in the format.
No Infinite Obliteration for Eldrazi Ramp: I kinda feel like 4x Duress and 4x Transgress the Mind should be sufficient to neuter the deck of its ramp spells before it can cast them. My only concern is that I'm playing a long game anyway, so they may still be able to get enough mana before I can win.
Seems solid. I did some testing last night vs. bant company... man that deck is problematic. It requires some careful play. Any tips for this one? Would the midrange or the control versions of BW be better suited to deal with it ?
Cheers
I took that list, Sky Mason's, and did some retooling with it. I beat Bant Company in two matches with it, loss to UR because of Fevered Visions, beat Jund with Gitrog, and some Esper brew.
Sideboarding against Bant, I was cutting 3 Gideon, 1 Read the Bones, and 1 Oath of Gideon in order to bring in 2 Kalitas, 1 Languish, and 2 Hallowed Moonlight. Basically, try to leverage them into being walled by the fourth turn Kalitas and set him up to get pumped by a zombie into Languish. That was the plan. It can happen. Otherwise, you kill everything and hold out for a large Secure to start chump blocking while bashing in with whatever you can.
Oath of Gideon is probably too cute, but I haven't been convinced to cut it entirely and like it's spot on the curve. It is a tad better than jamming the fourth Secure on turn 3.
For this weekend at the invitational, I want something better than Linvala and am actually considering Ayli as a possible removal spell with late game life gain potential. The deck kills too much stuff to ever get an angel and the life gain isn't enough for something so high on the curve. Triggering the angel on Descend is also tricky, but the mana requirements force you to have Sanctuary over Evolving Wilds, but even then with only four types in the main you have to be grinding hard to get the planeswalker or a Blighted Fen in the yard. But exile is more important than the Awaken of Planar Outburst, because Avacyn.
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Stasis snare has been completely good against the red eldrazi deck. Just because dromoka's command is in format, doesn't mean it is bad.
BW control has been insane against the creature heavy format. I have had an overall 80% winrate, only losing to control mirror and GR ramp game 1.
Languish and descend upon is absolute bonkers.
To all those who play archangel avacyn, card is absolute garbage. Take it out of your decks for another removal or more draw like damnable pact or painful for 2 raw cards. Any creature deck means free board wipe for you, and any control deck. Ultimate price and grasp just kills it and move on. Card is 50$ for no reason.
Secure the wastes and ultimate price overperformed. Both these cards are absolutely nuts, recommend 3 copies min in every build for secure. Bumped price up to 2 despite the eldrazi match up, because languish is a thing.
Ayli is auto 3 of in every build, card overperformed everytime. This card is amazing blocker and 3 toughness makes it hard for sylvans to go through.
Delerium is what im focused towards when gearing this deck. Descend and leaving a 4/4 behind is so key, as well as pick the brain for GR ramp. It is also for control and the bant company to pick off cocos. Plague is just necessary for the token builds coming out, infinite is to force interaction with GR ramp.
Kalitas has been garbage, it is in the same boat with avacyn. Grasp, declare, and spatial contortion made this card mediocre and it underperformed. It is still there for sake of zombies strats or nantuko husk decks. The fact that languish + kalitas is also a big no-no, you would say i will just pump my kalitas. But overall, that didn't happen and it underperformed this starting meta.
Felidar cub is for the quarantine field sideboard and other enchantments that i won't know about like some crappy starfield deck.
encircling fissure is for the aggro decks, this card has overperformed everytime and i love it. This card is the reason why in this meta, you get to live for another turn. Living to another turn vs. dying seems like a good deal, the additional plus is my tokens and ayli can trade with their buff guys.
extra anguished for the PW deck like naya or jund walkers, it also helps deal with eldrazi.
Pick the brain is used with delirium pref. But it is another hand control card.
The only cards i lost to were coco and chandra, it was more to coco than chandra since i can come back from chandra. I can't come back from 2-3 cocos EVER, unless i had a board wipe draws consecutively.
Anyone i saw who used avacyn along with being a creature deck was auto win. They played a board wipe for me and i just kill avacyn after. Linvala was considered, but i took the grip of desolation instead. Grip helped me hit the manlands + sylvans.
This deck has overperformed this meta, and currently persuading my non bant friends to play this deck for PPTQ and GP.
4 Swamp
7 Plains
4 Shambling Vent
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Battlefield Forge
2 Blighted Fen
2 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Matter Reshaper
4 Bearer of Silence
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Planeswalkers
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Spells
3 Stasis Snare
3 Silkwrap
2 Duress
1 To the Slaughter
2 Secure the Wastes
2 Planar Outburst
2 Read the Bones
1 Declaration in Stone
I need to put in some Anguished Unmaking and Sorin, Grim Nemesis but here are my thoughts on the deck as it was.
Matter Reshaper was an all-star. He almost always hit something useful and once hit another Matter Reshaper.
Knight of the White Orchid was a bit underwhelming. I'm considering going with Hangarback Walker instead.
The exile enchantments are amazing when nobody is playing Dromoka's Command. Even if they were I'm using enough of it that one inevitably gets used on a HBW, token, or other card that I wouldn't mind bringing back.
Although he performed well 4 Bearer of Silence is probably to many 2-3 would be better.
Personally I'm a fan of Descend over outburst at this stage in the meta, way too many sneaky avacyns flying about...
Biggest issue with grasp over price is only if their stuff gets too big via Thalia's lieutenant, always watching etc, other than that 1B is easier than BB I suppose? Swapping 1 for 1 is probably fairly solid though.
Path and snare I haven't played with yet in this meta, although path could shine in a drawn out game, awakening a vent etc (and planeswalker removal is always nice with chandras and sorins around)
I'm actually running 1 Linvala main just as a late game bomb if needed, 2 Avs SB etc....will try to post a deck list when I get home tonight
I mostly play Modern (I've been out of standard since RTR/THS), but I need to branch back out into other formats because of the way the monthly QP tournaments are structured on magic online
I ran the following list last night at a modern event:
3 Declaration in stone
3 Anguished Unmaking
1 Ruinous Path
4 Fleshbag Marauder
Spells:
3 Transgress the mind
2 Read the Bones
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Damnation
1 Tragic Arrogance
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Relentless Dead
2 Liliana, Heretical Healer
3 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Archangel Avacyn
Lands:
4 Shambling Vent
4 Caves of Kolios
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
2 Evolving Wilds
2 Westvale Abbey
7 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Silkwrap
4 Duress
2 Ruinous Path
3 Flaying Tendrils
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 I can't remember what I had in this slot will edit in once I remember
I went 2-1 beating Jund (nissa, chandra, dark dwellers, removal, discard etc) and RG Werewolves, losing to ramp.
I got stuck on lands vs ramp and then the chain of land destruction started to happen and I died with all of the answers in my hand. I think I need to find a way to disrupt their hand better rather than try to kill the stuff after the fact.
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Casual: 5Color Zendikar Combo
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Other than the Eldrazi variant (which I feel is completely different from this thread), it seems like there are two directions to go with this deck:
1. All-in on the tokens. 4x Gideon, 4x Hangarback Walker, 4x Secure the Wastes, 2-4 Westvale Abbey.
2. All-in on planeswalker-control. At least 2 each of Gideon, Sorin, and Ob Nixilis. No creatures, other than the exception below, probably also play Oath of Gideon.
It seems like there is high value in playing Declaration of Stone, Silkwrap, and Transgress the Mind in combination with Wasteland Strangler. Does it fit into either strategy? I'm not sure. If you're playing creatureless, it makes sense to run sweepers like Languish or Flaying Tendrils, both of which kill Wasteland Strangler, but it should also be easy enough to play the sweeper either before it, or after it has already accomplished its 2-for-1 trade.
Also, I think you may be able to mix the two options I mention (but maybe not, I'm not sure), but I think it's pretty clear that the way forward likely includes 0 Kalitas, 0 Avacyn, and 0 Linvala.
The reason Kalitas wasn't played much is the double black when u want her turn 4. Most of the lists were white with black splash, so kalitas just doesn't have enough of an impact with her mana cost. Avacyn has always been a sideboard card for b/W control, or at least it should be....she doesnt bring anything to a boardstate with minimal creatures. I think B/W lists like the ones in this thread will pop up more and more, the open was just a terrible place for control so early into the rotation.
Both the midrange and control lists are great right now, but control will get better imo. Ive been running this with great result:
2 Wasteland Strangler
2 Odric, Lunarch Marshal
4 Knight of White Orchid
2 Archangel Avacyn
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Lantern Scout
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
7 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
4 Shambling Vent
2 Westvale Abbey
2 Stasis Snare
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Secure the Wastes
3 Declaration in Stone
1 Languish
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Quarantine Field
1 Virulent Plague
3 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Linvala, the Preserver
1 Declaration in Stone
2 Duress
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Languish
1 Read the Bones
Odric, Lunarch Marshal is a powerhouse. every game I at least get some variation of a indestructible, lifelink, flying, deathtouch, first strike, vigilance whenever he is out. I usually board out Kalitas and Lantern scout for another ob nixilis and the 4th Declaration whenever I dont need Lifelink - also the point I was mentioning above, kalitas is kinda funny with the mana sometimes. I realise this is a midrange deck, and I would rather play straight control, but this has been working till the meta shakes out.
Lists featuring Kalitas in the main:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100731
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100717
Lists featuring Avacyn in the main:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100752
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100674
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100731
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100687
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100698
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100714
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100717
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=100679
Only one list did not feature Avacyn and that was the 30th place all planeswalkers, no creatures list, which didn't even run Oath. Your predictions and analysis completely ignore the main BW midrange list that is built around Wasteland Strangler and other value creatures. No list featured 4 Gideon, 4 Hangarback, and 4 Secure. The closest you have to that is 4 Hangar, 4 Gideon, 3 Secure.
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
Question of 4 drops, I suppose.
I'm on 3 Gideon, 3 Kalitas.
3 Languish in the main.
G/R ramp is still running rampant, and didn't lose much. It hurts to have World Breaker come in and let them have back their DL Atarka.
New Nahiri can hit the minus to blow up your enchantment based removal as well.
I love Snare b/c it gives you an instant speed answer against virtually everything, including Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.
But, definitely puts you in an awkward spot if it gets blown up.
Running TKS works extremely well, especially with Eldrazi Displacer. The fact is...there is no "best list" yet. There are so many options with black and white atm.
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Matter Reshaper
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Archangel Avacyn
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
6 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Battlefield Forge
2 Blighted Fen
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Forsaken Sanctuary
1 Foundry of the Consuls
4 Shambling Vent
2 Ultimate Price
4 Declaration in Stone
2 Reality Smasher
2 Virulent Plague
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Duress
2 Read the Bones
3 Tragic Arrogance
TKS puts the deck in a much more midrange than I want to be playing and I think is an entirely separate deck than BW Control.
As long as they are running Plainswalkers and a removal package they are too similar for a separate thread though imo. Sure they are different, but not THAT different.
A couple of questions:
1. Are any of the exiling enchantments good now? Bant company will be tremendously popular and their 4x dromoka's commands will be backbreaking. What about adding more grasp of darkness, declaration into stone, etc.? (and modify the mana base to accomodate)
2. Why the knight of the white orchid over the hangarback ? IS it just the land? In my list I am running 26 lands. By reducing the need for WW I can now play grasp of darkness and even a kalitas and 2 languished consistently MD.
Regarding Ayli..I think he is good as can lead to sac hangarback in response to an exile effect, much needed life gain, has deathtouch to trade with any creature in the bant matchup, and can be a sac outlet to flip Avacyn. Anyway, here is my list. It is more controllish. Any comments/ideas/critiques are welcomed.
// Lands
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Shambling Vent
4 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Westvale Abbey/Ormendahl, Profane Prince
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
3 Llanowar Wastes
3 Battlefield Forge
// Creatures
2 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Archangel Avacyn/Avacyn, the Purifier
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Secure the Wastes
3 Grasp of Darkness
1 Ruinous Path
2 Languish
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Declaration in Stone
2 Anguished Unmaking
1 Read the Bones
1 Languish
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Linvala the Preserver
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Hallowed Moonlight
3 Pitiless Horde
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Dark Petition
1 Infinite Obliteration
1 Virulent Plague
Cheers
I guess I somewhat disagree with this considering all of the token generation a control build has. I agree she has more value in a creature heavy build, but flashing in Archangel Avacyn to give all of your tokens the ability to block and survive, while leaving your opponent vulnerable for an attack next turn is great imo. I think she sits nice as a 2 of in the main for control shells.
I guess that is true, good point.
So this is the list I'm hoping to run, looking to get some thoughts?
Going minimal creatures full control build, abbeys, a linvala, vents, sorins and gideons for beatdown.
Also sorry about the link but my phone hates trying to use deck tags >_<
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/soi-bw-control-brew-1/
Heaps not set in stone but I think I like the direction it's in...wondering whether I need to run a couple more board clears though.
Also it looks like UW humans is looking to start running the new dispel for sorceries, brutal stuff...
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/687499-w-b-eldrazi
To keep this thread clean for BW Non/Lite Eldrazi Control.
I Stream MTGO on Twitch: broodwarjc
I also post recordings of those streams on Youtube: broodwarjcavidgamer
Standard Deck:
BUPirates
Modern Deck:
B8-Rack
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/400471#online
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Secure the Wastes
\\Control
2 Silkwrap
2 Stasis Snare
1 Anguished Unmaking
3 Grasp of Darkness
2 Ultimate Price
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Descend upon the Sinful
2 Languish
3 Read the Bones
2 Ruinous Path
3 Transgress the Mind
5 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Evolving Wilds
1 Forsaken Sanctuary
4 Shambling Vent
3 Westvale Abbey
1 Stasis Snare
2 Surge of Righteousness
1 Ultimate Price
1 Linvala, the Preserver
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Declaration in Stone
3 Duress
2 Infinite Obliteration
1 Languish
1 Transgress the Mind
Seems solid. I did some testing last night vs. bant company... man that deck is problematic. It requires some careful play. Any tips for this one? Would the midrange or the control versions of BW be better suited to deal with it ?
Cheers
If Bant coco is a concern--keep in mind they main deck Dromokas' command.
RG Ramp is another deck I'm finding problematic at times, and having World Breaker blow up the Stasis Snare that's exiling a fatty with an ETB Trigger is disastrous.
3x Caves of Koilos
4x Forsaken Sanctuary
2x Mage-Ring Network
3x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
7x Swamp
3x Westvale Abbey
4x Declaration in Stone
2x Languish
4x Read the Bones
3x Transgress the Mind
Creature (4)
1x Archangel Avacyn
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Linvala, the Preserver
1x Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
3x Ultimate Price
3x Secure the Wastes
2x Anguished Unmaking
2x To the Slaughter
2x Grasp of Darkness
Planeswalker (5)
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
WUBEsper ControlWUB
4x Forsaken Sanctuary
6x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
6x Swamp
2x Westvale Abbey
4x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Dead Weight
2x Silkwrap
4x Declaration in Stone
2x Duress
2x Languish
4x Read the Bones
4x Secure the Wastes
2x Ultimate Price
3x Anguished Unmaking
2x Duress
3x Flaying Tendrils
3x Ruinous Path
4x Transgress the Mind
Thoughts:
Wasteland Strangler: I play this for the synergy with Declaration in Stone and Silkwrap (and out of the sideboard, with Transgress the Mind). In testing it's somewhat reliable. Wasteland Strangler can kill something and then sit to either eat a removal spell or trade in combat, either way achieving the 2-for-1 deal. This also helps alleviate some of the worries playing Silkwrap in a format with Dromoka's Command.
No maindeck Anguished Unmaking: The format is currently full of Collected Company (meaning creatures that are 3 cmc or less) and W/x Humans (most of these are 1-2 cmc). That puts removal spells that cost 3 mana in a bad position, forcing you to lose tempo with these decks. This card and Ruinous Path are both present in the sideboard to handle other decks where they are important (mirror match, decks with Jace, Eldrazi ramp).
Two primary win conditions: Win with planeswalkers (typically this includes lots of tokens and a Gideon emblem or two), or win with Westvale Abbey.
No Grasp of Darkness: I'm not particularly against this card, I just couldn't slot it. I need a possibility of T1 removal to handle the Humans decks that have many 1-drops, so that's why Dead Weight is in. The 2-cmc removal spells I have require only a single W or single B which makes them more reliably castable than Grasp of Darkness. Still, I could be convinced to put it somewhere. I know it's generally regarded as one of the better removal spells in the format.
No Infinite Obliteration for Eldrazi Ramp: I kinda feel like 4x Duress and 4x Transgress the Mind should be sufficient to neuter the deck of its ramp spells before it can cast them. My only concern is that I'm playing a long game anyway, so they may still be able to get enough mana before I can win.
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
2 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Caves of Koilos
1 Evolving Wilds
4 Forsaken Sanctuary
4 Shambling Vent
3 Westvale Abbey
1 Stasis Snare
1 Oath of Gideon
2 Anguished Unmaking
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Secure the Wastes
1 Ultimate Price
4 Declaration in Stone
1 Descend upon the Sinful
2 Languish
3 Read the Bones
2 Ruinous Path
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Flaying Tendrils
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Linvala, the Preserver
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Duress
2 Infinite Obliteration
1 Languish
1 Dark Petition
1 Transgress the Mind
Sideboarding against Bant, I was cutting 3 Gideon, 1 Read the Bones, and 1 Oath of Gideon in order to bring in 2 Kalitas, 1 Languish, and 2 Hallowed Moonlight. Basically, try to leverage them into being walled by the fourth turn Kalitas and set him up to get pumped by a zombie into Languish. That was the plan. It can happen. Otherwise, you kill everything and hold out for a large Secure to start chump blocking while bashing in with whatever you can.
Oath of Gideon is probably too cute, but I haven't been convinced to cut it entirely and like it's spot on the curve. It is a tad better than jamming the fourth Secure on turn 3.
For this weekend at the invitational, I want something better than Linvala and am actually considering Ayli as a possible removal spell with late game life gain potential. The deck kills too much stuff to ever get an angel and the life gain isn't enough for something so high on the curve. Triggering the angel on Descend is also tricky, but the mana requirements force you to have Sanctuary over Evolving Wilds, but even then with only four types in the main you have to be grinding hard to get the planeswalker or a Blighted Fen in the yard. But exile is more important than the Awaken of Planar Outburst, because Avacyn.
BW control has been insane against the creature heavy format. I have had an overall 80% winrate, only losing to control mirror and GR ramp game 1.
Languish and descend upon is absolute bonkers.
To all those who play archangel avacyn, card is absolute garbage. Take it out of your decks for another removal or more draw like damnable pact or painful for 2 raw cards. Any creature deck means free board wipe for you, and any control deck. Ultimate price and grasp just kills it and move on. Card is 50$ for no reason.
Secure the wastes and ultimate price overperformed. Both these cards are absolutely nuts, recommend 3 copies min in every build for secure. Bumped price up to 2 despite the eldrazi match up, because languish is a thing.
Ayli is auto 3 of in every build, card overperformed everytime. This card is amazing blocker and 3 toughness makes it hard for sylvans to go through.
3 Ayli, eternal pilgrim
Planeswalkers: 6
2 Gideon, ally of zendikar
2 Ob nixlis, reignited
2 Sorin, grim nemesis
Spells: 25
2 Ultimate Price
1 Grasp of Darkness
1 Grip of desolation
2 Declaration in stone
3 Transgress the mind
3 Stasis Snare
2 Secure the Wastes
3 Languish
2 Descend upon the sinful
4 Read the Bones
2 Anguished Unmaking
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Shambling vent
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Blighted Fen
2 Westvale Abbey
4 Cave of Koilos
4 Swamp
6 Plain
3 Virulent Plague
3 Infinite Obliteration
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Felidar Cub
2 Encircling Fissure
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Pick the brain
Delerium is what im focused towards when gearing this deck. Descend and leaving a 4/4 behind is so key, as well as pick the brain for GR ramp. It is also for control and the bant company to pick off cocos. Plague is just necessary for the token builds coming out, infinite is to force interaction with GR ramp.
Kalitas has been garbage, it is in the same boat with avacyn. Grasp, declare, and spatial contortion made this card mediocre and it underperformed. It is still there for sake of zombies strats or nantuko husk decks. The fact that languish + kalitas is also a big no-no, you would say i will just pump my kalitas. But overall, that didn't happen and it underperformed this starting meta.
Felidar cub is for the quarantine field sideboard and other enchantments that i won't know about like some crappy starfield deck.
encircling fissure is for the aggro decks, this card has overperformed everytime and i love it. This card is the reason why in this meta, you get to live for another turn. Living to another turn vs. dying seems like a good deal, the additional plus is my tokens and ayli can trade with their buff guys.
extra anguished for the PW deck like naya or jund walkers, it also helps deal with eldrazi.
Pick the brain is used with delirium pref. But it is another hand control card.
The only cards i lost to were coco and chandra, it was more to coco than chandra since i can come back from chandra. I can't come back from 2-3 cocos EVER, unless i had a board wipe draws consecutively.
Anyone i saw who used avacyn along with being a creature deck was auto win. They played a board wipe for me and i just kill avacyn after. Linvala was considered, but i took the grip of desolation instead. Grip helped me hit the manlands + sylvans.
This deck has overperformed this meta, and currently persuading my non bant friends to play this deck for PPTQ and GP.
What are you talking about? Both languish and descend ignore indestructible.
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0