I haven't seen Kalitas and Angel of Tithes in the same deck. what I HAVE seen is a whole bunch of removal followed up by Kalitas and Mindwrack Demon. Early creature blockers followed by an instant removal and sorcery removal and then Mindwrack throwing a land into the grave gives them instant delirium when he comes out. You have to run tears of valakut to answer or it's GG for them at that point.
@Zhakad: I'm not really referring to B/W Control. We probably have a decent game against a control shell. It's a midrange shell with Ayli as their main 2-drop (maybe Knight as well) and Wasteland Strangler likely as their 3-drop is more what I'm thinking.
Whether it's Tithes specifically is more irrelevant. I think my point is that while we have answers, the decks we will be facing will have a mixture of threats that cannot be answered easily by a single sideboard card.
Devour and Axe probably do it the best. I think the Discard is too steep a price on Axe, but being instant speed over Sorcery is quite big, especially with Avacyn potentially being a premier top end thread in those decks. Neither of them are reall good mainboard material though, and the threats we are facing are mainboard.
I've done some testing of W/x humans, both splash green and splash blue against Red aggro running a similar list to the one posted above and it has gone very poorly for the Red list. Dromoka's Command or Reflector mage or just a turn two 2/3 (t1 Inspector + t2 Thalia's Lt) seem to be major sticking points. Also consider how you are going to address t4 Archangel of Tithes. Good luck and may the red deck always win!
ah so you've gone W/x after Jeskai life? i went RDW route.
I was playing Mantis Rider in FNM til a week before the pre-release but the times they are a changing. I haven't honestly been happy with Red, or specifically the lack of reach, since M15/Theros rotated. After OGW standard I vowed I wouldn't play red unless they gave us a no strings attached lightning strike esque card to deal with all the x/3s running around. SoI doesn't provide that (as good as Temper can be, its pretty unreliable). The W/x human decks are turning out to be aggressive tempo decks with some reasonable controlling elements so I'm pretty sure it will be my jam for a while. And because Angels.
@Zhakad: I'm not really referring to B/W Control. We probably have a decent game against a control shell. It's a midrange shell with Ayli as their main 2-drop (maybe Knight as well) and Wasteland Strangler likely as their 3-drop is more what I'm thinking.
Whether it's Tithes specifically is more irrelevant. I think my point is that while we have answers, the decks we will be facing will have a mixture of threats that cannot be answered easily by a single sideboard card.
Devour and Axe probably do it the best. I think the Discard is too steep a price on Axe, but being instant speed over Sorcery is quite big, especially with Avacyn potentially being a premier top end thread in those decks. Neither of them are reall good mainboard material though, and the threats we are facing are mainboard.
so you are worried more about opposing creatures stretching our removals?
I've done some testing of W/x humans, both splash green and splash blue against Red aggro running a similar list to the one posted above and it has gone very poorly for the Red list. Dromoka's Command or Reflector mage or just a turn two 2/3 (t1 Inspector + t2 Thalia's Lt) seem to be major sticking points. Also consider how you are going to address t4 Archangel of Tithes. Good luck and may the red deck always win!
ah so you've gone W/x after Jeskai life? i went RDW route.
I was playing Mantis Rider in FNM til a week before the pre-release but the times they are a changing. I haven't honestly been happy with Red, or specifically the lack of reach, since M15/Theros rotated. After OGW standard I vowed I wouldn't play red unless they gave us a no strings attached lightning strike esque card to deal with all the x/3s running around. SoI doesn't provide that (as good as Temper can be, its pretty unreliable). The W/x human decks are turning out to be aggressive tempo decks with some reasonable controlling elements so I'm pretty sure it will be my jam for a while. And because Angels.
i can see why. my friend's building a W/x deck and i shudder at the thought of playtesting against it. Archangel of Tithes is a back breaker.
but i've had success with Atarka Red since BFZ so i'll strive to make a competitive R/x deck.
anyway, i do hope to see your name again in an SCG top 8 list!
Whether it's Tithes specifically is more irrelevant. I think my point is that while we have answers, the decks we will be facing will have a mixture of threats that cannot be answered easily by a single sideboard card.
Devour and Axe probably do it the best. I think the Discard is too steep a price on Axe, but being instant speed over Sorcery is quite big, especially with Avacyn potentially being a premier top end thread in those decks. Neither of them are reall good mainboard material though, and the threats we are facing are mainboard.
Tears of Valakut in the air, Roast on the ground answers everything standard can throw at us until we move into Eldrazi range which I havent seen a deck yet.
We really need a quality 2drop right now (abbot isn't a real 2 drop) and scourge wolf is just not good enough. Just like the Castigator I was really high on this card but it been really disappointing so far, I have yet to trigger Delirium on it and a 2/2 with first strike that does nothing the turn you play it is just not goood enough. Maybe going back to Dragon Whisperer is an option ? I'm not sure. I miss Valley Dasher. Seriously.
Seriously, try Kessig Forgemaster. Red deck cards don't need to run Rares and Mythics.
The more I play Goldnight Castigator, the less I like it, especially when you are on the draw. Thunderbreak Regent is still my go to 4 drop at the moment, and it does ok since there seem to be less edict effect (I have yet to see a foul tongue invocation and cracling doom is gone), although I must admit I would drop him if I didn't play a full set of Draconic Roar. I'm looking for something more aggressive (i.e. with haste and a decent body)
I play 4 Goldnight Castigator main for game one and then game 2 I usually switch them out for or in conjunction with Thunderbreak Regent. 8 red fliers do a nice job combating the clogged ground problem.
If you are online, try this list, give her a spin. She isn't suicide and isn't midrange, its a nice clean in the middle aggro deck that does what it needs to and has concise answers for every situation I've encountered. Just remember the flip triggers and don't be afraid to use Exquisite Firecraft as removal game 1 as needed. Also side in Skin Invasion to combo with removal on early turn creatures and you'll have a blocker for days. Adjust your Tears of Valakut accordingly if you encounter more fliers than not with another sideboard card. I usually find I want to have 1 in hand on turn 4 or 5 and 3 in side usually accomplish this goal.
@Zhakad: No so much stretching our removal as brickwalling us at key points in the game, where we are ill equipped to answer with a tempo advantage. For example, Ayli can't be answered by Impulse on T2 most of the time. X/5 is going to give us issues all of the time. The fact that some big butts fly makes things harder to fix.
@RyogAkari: It's easy to say Roast for this and Tears for that, but try sideboarding in both and see how clunky the games become when you draw the wrong one for the gamestate.
I suppose my point is that meta will dictate the selection of our Burn spells, and this should likely be a bigger factor in what shell we play above all else. I am thinking the deck really needs a 3 damage spell viable on T2 for a start. Maybe we have to play Roar, as I don't think Temper will be consistent enough.
@Zhakad: No so much stretching our removal as brickwalling us at key points in the game, where we are ill equipped to answer with a tempo advantage. For example, Ayli can't be answered by Impulse on T2 most of the time. X/5 is going to give us issues all of the time. The fact that some big butts fly makes things harder to fix.
a legitimate concern. indeed you are right. we will likely revisit this problem after our first Constructed post rotation FNMs and SCG tournament results.
RDW should really consider the importance of Draconic Roar. Either include Thunderbreak Regent in your deck. Or dont concern yourelf with the dragon trigger. After all, if the card just read: 1RInstant - deal 3 damage to target creature. Would really not use it?
If you are looking for another quality two drop, you may need to add a second color. Forerunner of slaughter is a beast. But without fetchlands, I am not sure that it can be cast reliably on t2
Insolate Neonate works very well with Skin Invasion. You can block, before damage sack it, discard a Madness card, draw and transform Skin Invasion. It's even better if you have a Fiery Temper in hand to discard with open mana.
Any comments / suggestions are welcome. I did not put my sideboard lineup above but I plan of having 3-4 copies of Goldnight Castigator to swap with Avaricious Dragon if I need to be more aggressive.
With 7 dragons main, I think that you can afford to, and probably should, run the full 4 copies of Draconic Roar. Maybe pull the Judgements, as Roar is more efficient.
Also, Brian Demars posted an interesting Atarka Red deck on CFB. He notes that he prefers Firecraft over Castigator - it's cheaper, does the same damage, and " I don’t randomly get killed when my opponent untaps!"
@Aoutp: Dragon Whisperer is my favorite card in quite a while so I'll always suggest it. Fiery impulse something, swing for 3 is a good turn 3 play. Or fly over for 2 and play another 2 drop.
But Ryog mentioned Forgemaster and I think she's a dame as well.
Guys, am I nuts for wanting to play Declaration in Stone, and drop Avacyn in at 5? We lost Kolaghan and Sarkhan in that slot, and I'm sure as hell not playing that mythic Wolf. Does RW landbase just suck? Nahiri could be an option in there as well.
And I'm probably off in goofball territory but Descend upon the Sinful is a beast of a sideboard card.
Any comments / suggestions are welcome. I did not put my sideboard lineup above but I plan of having 3-4 copies of Goldnight Castigator to swap with Avaricious Dragon if I need to be more aggressive.
i suggest you remove one Avaricious Dragon. i don't think you'd want multiple copies of it before you dump your opening hand.
as JonInWherever said, you probably should place full 4 copies of Draconic Roar. it's pretty good especially if you meet the Dragon requirement.
Also, Brian Demars posted an interesting Atarka Red deck on CFB. He notes that he prefers Firecraft over Castigator - it's cheaper, does the same damage, and " I don’t randomly get killed when my opponent untaps!"
he also said that
...Castigator may actually be better than Chandra’s parents in this deck. I haven’t played against a wide enough array of decks to know for sure yet!
i think he's worried about Castigator's disadvantage because his deck doesn't have much removal.
but in a red deck loaded with removal, i think Castigator's fine. if one could cast a creature and remove an opponent's creature for the first 2-3 turns, then drop a Castigator, that's a major threat pressuring the opponent to remove it immediately, drawing attention away from your smaller creatures!
of course, the problem is how many reliable removal spells post rotation red decks can include in the deck.
Typically 5-6 dragons is considered a "requirement". While not hard and fast, it just means that you have a much higher chance of being able to trigger the reveal clause. Frank Karsten has an article on Channel Fireball that talks about probabilities of the trigger, and I seem to remember that 6 dragons is about 70% likely. Go look it up - it's a good read! (I would post the link, but I'm using my phone right now...)
It's the requirement if you want to get the trigger consistently. But I don't think making the curve too top heavy is worth that extra consistency. Just play it as a removal that is sometimes broken, rather than clunk up the deck.
Also, I think someone mentioned a White Splash for Declaration in Stone. That might have some teeth to it. Maybe just replace Titan's Strength with Declaration. We could run Needle Spires too.
Edit: Actually maybe Oath of Gideon makes going Tokens with a White splash kind of interesting.
i may have the opportunity to playtest some of the ideas here next week vs a W/x deck. me and my friend will be getting the cards we ordered on friday. i'll include Devour in Flames among the removals i'll test.
i will post a report on how good or bad R/x goes against that deck afterwards.
Wish I would have recorded the results from my testing vs BW midrange. Main takeaway was that Ayli is annoying and that Kalitas is an immediate must kill.
@nevelo : My experience with Oath of Gideon is that the planeswalker part of the card was actually the part I wanted most. I used it in a Mardu Friends build when Oath first dropped. The tokens were ok, but we're red players: 2 dudes for 3 mana is kind of a feel bad play for us. Not to discourage you, the card just felt super awkward even in a deck filled with walkers.
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RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
Whether it's Tithes specifically is more irrelevant. I think my point is that while we have answers, the decks we will be facing will have a mixture of threats that cannot be answered easily by a single sideboard card.
Devour and Axe probably do it the best. I think the Discard is too steep a price on Axe, but being instant speed over Sorcery is quite big, especially with Avacyn potentially being a premier top end thread in those decks. Neither of them are reall good mainboard material though, and the threats we are facing are mainboard.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
so you are worried more about opposing creatures stretching our removals?
i can see why. my friend's building a W/x deck and i shudder at the thought of playtesting against it. Archangel of Tithes is a back breaker.
but i've had success with Atarka Red since BFZ so i'll strive to make a competitive R/x deck.
anyway, i do hope to see your name again in an SCG top 8 list!
Tears of Valakut in the air, Roast on the ground answers everything standard can throw at us until we move into Eldrazi range which I havent seen a deck yet.
Seriously, try Kessig Forgemaster. Red deck cards don't need to run Rares and Mythics.
I play 4 Goldnight Castigator main for game one and then game 2 I usually switch them out for or in conjunction with Thunderbreak Regent. 8 red fliers do a nice job combating the clogged ground problem.
If you are online, try this list, give her a spin. She isn't suicide and isn't midrange, its a nice clean in the middle aggro deck that does what it needs to and has concise answers for every situation I've encountered. Just remember the flip triggers and don't be afraid to use Exquisite Firecraft as removal game 1 as needed. Also side in Skin Invasion to combo with removal on early turn creatures and you'll have a blocker for days. Adjust your Tears of Valakut accordingly if you encounter more fliers than not with another sideboard card. I usually find I want to have 1 in hand on turn 4 or 5 and 3 in side usually accomplish this goal.
4 Falkenrath Gorger
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Kessig Forgemaster
4 Scourge Wolf
4 Sin Prodder
4 Goldnight Castigator
4 Exquisite Firecraft
22 Mountain
4 Skin Invasion
4 Roast
4 Thunderbreak Regent
3 Tears of Valakut
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
@RyogAkari: It's easy to say Roast for this and Tears for that, but try sideboarding in both and see how clunky the games become when you draw the wrong one for the gamestate.
I suppose my point is that meta will dictate the selection of our Burn spells, and this should likely be a bigger factor in what shell we play above all else. I am thinking the deck really needs a 3 damage spell viable on T2 for a start. Maybe we have to play Roar, as I don't think Temper will be consistent enough.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
a legitimate concern. indeed you are right. we will likely revisit this problem after our first Constructed post rotation FNMs and SCG tournament results.
If you are looking for another quality two drop, you may need to add a second color. Forerunner of slaughter is a beast. But without fetchlands, I am not sure that it can be cast reliably on t2
C Long Live Eldrazi C
Wanting to enter Standard, I came up with this list.
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
2 Sin Prodder
3 Avaricious Dragon
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Incorrigible Youths
4 Lightning Axe
2 Avacyn's Judgment
2 Draconic Roar
4 Fiery Temper
* I run 61 card main deck
Any comments / suggestions are welcome. I did not put my sideboard lineup above but I plan of having 3-4 copies of Goldnight Castigator to swap with Avaricious Dragon if I need to be more aggressive.
Also, Brian Demars posted an interesting Atarka Red deck on CFB. He notes that he prefers Firecraft over Castigator - it's cheaper, does the same damage, and " I don’t randomly get killed when my opponent untaps!"
1 Forest
4 Game Trail
4 Cinder Glade
12 Mountain
Creatures
2 Lightning Berserker
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Falkenrath Gorger
2 Village Messenger
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
1 Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Arlinn Kord
4 Titan's Strength
4 Atarka's Command
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Fiery Impulse
3 Act of Treason
But Ryog mentioned Forgemaster and I think she's a dame as well.
Guys, am I nuts for wanting to play Declaration in Stone, and drop Avacyn in at 5? We lost Kolaghan and Sarkhan in that slot, and I'm sure as hell not playing that mythic Wolf. Does RW landbase just suck? Nahiri could be an option in there as well.
And I'm probably off in goofball territory but Descend upon the Sinful is a beast of a sideboard card.
i suggest you remove one Avaricious Dragon. i don't think you'd want multiple copies of it before you dump your opening hand.
as JonInWherever said, you probably should place full 4 copies of Draconic Roar. it's pretty good especially if you meet the Dragon requirement.
he also said that
i think he's worried about Castigator's disadvantage because his deck doesn't have much removal.
but in a red deck loaded with removal, i think Castigator's fine. if one could cast a creature and remove an opponent's creature for the first 2-3 turns, then drop a Castigator, that's a major threat pressuring the opponent to remove it immediately, drawing attention away from your smaller creatures!
of course, the problem is how many reliable removal spells post rotation red decks can include in the deck.
I'm curious. What's the Dragon Requirement for running 4 D.Roar?
@ALL: thanks for the inputs btw.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Lightning Berserker
1 Dragon Whisperer
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Sin Prodder
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Titan's Strength
4 Draconic Roar
2 Devour in Flames
4 Exquisite Firecraft
Lands (22)
22 Mountain
4 Dual Shot
4 Rending Volley
1 Magmatic Chasm
2 Devour in Flames
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
Is it wrong to not have Roast?
Also, I think someone mentioned a White Splash for Declaration in Stone. That might have some teeth to it. Maybe just replace Titan's Strength with Declaration. We could run Needle Spires too.
Edit: Actually maybe Oath of Gideon makes going Tokens with a White splash kind of interesting.
3 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Falkenrath Gorger
4 Lightning Berserker
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Titan's Strength
4 Declaration in Stone
4 Dragon Fodder
4 Oath of Gideon
4 Exquisite Firecraft
9 Mountain
4 Stone Quarry
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Needle Spires
Main issue is all the ETB tapped lands.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
hmm... if you're confident about Devour in Flames, then maybe it's reasonable to not play Roast.
but if you're gonna use Devour, might Looming Spires be a reasonable card to include in the deck?
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
i will post a report on how good or bad R/x goes against that deck afterwards.
Wish I would have recorded the results from my testing vs BW midrange. Main takeaway was that Ayli is annoying and that Kalitas is an immediate must kill.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)